Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[MarKO X]

What hasn't been said? He's:

-part of the game So are items.
-can be gimped like any other character Not really.
-is light But his momentum cancel allows him to live longer than the average lightweight. (I dont mention DI because everyone has DI)
-has several moves which no one uses Doesn't mean the moves that he does use aren't broken.
-has relatively sub-par air speed But has relatively amazing attack speed in the air, plus glides.
-was considered D tier material (albeit for three months) yeah. was.
-has a grab-game which is on par with the others. so?
-has smash attacks which can be dodged He still posses a 5 frame kill move.

In that aspect, he's quite similar to other characters.

also, he has no projectiles, or other long-ranged attacks Define long range.

Ironically, the stages that he doesn't fare well on (Green Greens, Bridge of Eldin, Onett)
are banned (thanks to another character).

If Green Greens was counter-pickable, Meta-Knight wouldn't always counter-ban Halberd during match-ups.


I understand that most (if not all) pro-ban people hate his high priority, multiple recoveries, and down smash, and I find that a reasonable counter to the anti-ban movement.

I'm just saying....

Edit: less than 24 hours left and the walls of text keep coming. amazing.

 

[SnowballBob33]

Praxis or fiction already said it. MK/Ally took out a good chunk of people, then MK dittos/Ally took out the MKs, and then we are left with the final results. If you get no MKs in your bracket, the results can become decieving.

Edit: P.S, dont take my color

 

[betterthanbonds9]

How can you base say this when most of the top placing Snakes, diddys, & falcos were knocked out by mostly by the top 3 mk players. No one ever said that these characters beat mk, they said that these characters have better matchups against mk than the rest of the cast.

because fiction's quote already said that earlier in my post

they are still fine characters, regardless of MK...im not that crazy as to not admit that snake, falco, etc aren't top tiers >_<

why are you arguing against my pro ban argument? This was specific to panda's question, not a statement that should be used without the "5) Explain how the counter-pick system is used enough at high levels of play for him having a bad match-up to even matter." thing from avaricepanda in there...

top tiers imo are good characters and they can be used without other characters. The results i posted show that MK is the best by far though (especially when added with fiction's argument i used prior).

again: why point out that part of the post when it's used to answer a specific question?

 

[1048576]

Yeah, he's banworthy. I suggest that 54% of the community just quit. The anti-bans will say they don't need us, that they can enjoy tournies entirely composed of MK dittos (and Ally,) but eventually the game will wither and die. Maybe then they'll begin to see the merits of our proposition.

 

[MarKO X]

Praxis or fiction already said it. MK/Ally took out a good chunk of people, then MK dittos/Ally took out the MKs, and then we are left with the final results. If you get no MKs in your bracket, the results can become decieving.

Edit: P.S, dont take my color

lol
I don't use it on a regular basis.
But Royal Blue is such a sexy color.

 

[QUIVO]

Without MK, this game would be so much campier...

 

[UberMario]

@MarKO X:

Items aren't playable.
You can spike an incoming Meta with a forward spike. (Like DK's or Mario's)
Which move is his momentum cancel? You mean like Bucket Braking?
Which ones are broken? You can grab them out of a DSmash and Shuttle Loop's knockback isn't that devastating. (Unless you're off the stage)
You don't have to attack him while he's in the air, he just can't "chase" you while you're both in the air.
You don't see his grab game as normal?
His DSmash only hits if you're on the ground nearby.

Long-range: Being able to attack the foe without worrying about being punished immediately afterward.

 

[pastaboy]

infinite facepalms from your posts ubermario

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Without MK, this game would be so much campier...

Because MK can't camp, havne't we made rules to make him not camp? Doesn't he still air camp?

 

[Red Arremer]

Yeah, he's banworthy. I suggest that 54% of the community just quit. The anti-bans will say they don't need us, that they can enjoy tournies entirely composed of MK dittos (and Ally,) but eventually the game will wither and die. Maybe then they'll begin to see the merits of our proposition.

Yeah, he's not banworthy. I suggest that 46% of the community just quit. The pro-bans will say they don't need us, that they can enjoy tournies entirely composed of S Tier matches (and Overswarm), but eventually the game will wither and die. Maybe then they'll begin to see the merits of our proposition.

 

[UberMario]

infinite facepalms from your posts ubermario

What is wrong with what I post?

 

[QUIVO]

True, MK at his gayest can camp too well.

 

[AvaricePanda]

4. Because 1 diddy in the top 25 (adhd) really proves that diddy is really good. Last i checked he lost to tyrant too...maybe you should reread fiction:

Last I checked he beat Dojo in a 2-0 MM and his set against Tyrant was absurdly close.

Also, that post didn't directly target what I said at all. It didn't target how Diddy has known room to improve in the MU while MK doesn't, and it didn't target the actual match-up between the two.

Also, I've already targetted Fiction's post once in this thread, and multiple, mullltiple times in the blog he made on AiB about it (looking for that is easier, just search Fiction's blogs and find it) and how his statements were just skewed data, and how it's really easy to manipulate data to sound like it's in one person's advantage.

5. It honestly isn't used much, why?

1. Ally - Snake - $2,336
2. M2K - Meta Knight - $1,460
3. Tyrant - Meta Knight - $876
4. Dojo - Meta Knight - $584
5. ADHD - Diddy Kong - $233
6. DEHF - Falco - $175
7. Fiction - Wario - $118
8. SK92 - Falco - $59
9. Judge - Meta Knight
9. Lain - Ice Climbers/King Dedede
9. Ultimate Razer - Snake
9. UTD Zach - Game & Watch

because MK, Snake, diddy, gw, and falco are all perfectly fine as stand alone characters, but only 2 snakes got high, only 1 made money, and apparently snake counters MK, honestly, ALLY counters MK, not snake. Anti-ban should just never use Ally, and Pro-ban should never use M2K for arguments and then we might actually make some ground on this

Just because a certain character didn't place high, doesn't mean that the match-up is any different. I could say the same about hobo17, "apparently Peach, Luigi, and Wario beat Diddy, but there were 3 Diddys in the top 8 lol).

While it doesn't prove anything, the fact that Ally and M2K beat each other a lot helps support the claim that the match-up is close.

Also, about the whole it not being important thing, I just made a large post about that that you can read.

6. Be specific so i can argue something. Tell me a game, I'll argue it, but dont give me something with many possiblities because i could cover 999 games and you'd just come back with the 1 game i didn't cover and thus disprove the argument. So tell me a game so I dont fall into this ***ty trap you're trying to pull :D.

It honestly wasn't a trap.

Okay, Street Fighter IV (Sagat) and Super Smash Brothers Melee (Fox).

not to mention: why should we care necesarily about other games? We aren't them, they aren't us

They're all fighting games though and can give us evidence of things inherent in fighting games. Again for like the 10th time, I'm not saying, "SFIV hasn't banned Sagat so we're noobs if we try to ban MK lol." I'm saying, "Sagat has no bad match-ups and is the best character, yet there's still a healthy competitive metagame. There's no reason to say that MK ruins the metagame simply because he has no bad match-ups, as there's evidence with countless other fighting games that this isn't the case."

 

[Espy Rose]

Without MK, this game would be so much campier...

So?

10sos...

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

just curious, i wonder what the poll percentage would be WITHOUT all the MK mains voting.

I mean, they have the right to. A man gets a voice in his own trail. I'm just curious.

 

[odbpripripri]

This decision should be left to the 'Self Proclaimed Best Players' . It's impossible to find out every single alt. 1 alt for either argument is worth a re count/re vote.

Plus, i think that the back room can be mature enough to make inteligent decissions by facts and not because they play him/can't beat them.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Yeah, he's banworthy. I suggest that 54% of the community just quit. The anti-bans will say they don't need us, that they can enjoy tournies entirely composed of MK dittos (and Ally,) but eventually the game will wither and die. Maybe then they'll begin to see the merits of our proposition.

HURR SFIV SFIII THIRD STRIKE MELEE HURRRR.

because no bad match-ups despite close and even ones means that the game can't possibly survive despite evidence and tournament results that show his tournament dominance has been slipping from the past and there's no evidence to say it will go the other way.

Praxis or fiction already said it. MK/Ally took out a good chunk of people, then MK dittos/Ally took out the MKs, and then we are left with the final results. If you get no MKs in your bracket, the results can become decieving.

Edit: P.S, dont take my color

I want you to go to Fiction's blog on AiB where that was originally posted and read my posts (namely the first one, on page one) of how information can be manipulated.

 

[Sosuke]

Is anyone patient enough to search through 3,000 people's profiles and check to see if they main MK or not? >_>

 

[BadAxel97]

Thank you pastaboy, I was about to say that...

 

[pastaboy]

im not even gunna refute his points, waste of time. LOL

 

[QUIVO]

So?

10sos...

So.. brawl is already boring to watch... Who wants to watch someone camp for 7-8 minutes?

Don't get me wrong, I hate watching planking with MK

 

[SnowballBob33]

In case any people were wondering, Pro-Ban needs over 1000 votes to hit 66%

 

[BadAxel97]

So.. brawl is already boring to watch... Who wants to watch someone camp for 7-8 minutes?

Don't get me wrong, I hate watching planking with MK

How would you go about regulating camping?
I don't mean to insult you or anything, but would we...like have a referee with a stop watch counting down to see if someone's going to attack?

I just am unclear about how we would watch for (and stop) something like that...

 

[Red Arremer]

In case any people were wondering, Pro-Ban needs over 1000 votes to hit 66%

In casy any people were wondering, it doesn't matter whether Pro-Ban gets 2/3 or not in the public poll.
Just like the OP says. God****it.

 

[Espy Rose]

So.. brawl is already boring to watch... Who wants to watch someone camp for 7-8 minutes?

Don't get me wrong, I hate watching planking with MK

Smash Bros. is and has been boring to watch since day one.
I'd rather watch poorly scripted pornography, and that's been in a state of redundancy for DECADES.

=====

Oh, and believe it or not, some people ENJOY camping.

 

[MarKO X]

@MarKO X:

Items aren't playable. O rly?
You can spike an incoming Meta with a forward spike. (Like DK's or Mario's) assuming MK doesnt airdodge or use an aerial that comes out faster.
Which move is his momentum cancel? You mean like Bucket Braking? uairs to jump. no, it's no bucket brake, but it does its job.
Which ones are broken? You can grab them out of a DSmash and Shuttle Loop's knockback isn't that devastating. (Unless you're off the stage) lolwut. if u don't have a tether grab, you can grab MK out his dsmash?
You don't have to attack him while he's in the air, he just can't "chase" you while you're both in the air. You don't have to do a lot of things. What does that even mean?
You don't see his grab game as normal? You don't see it as something minor compared to all the other sh*t you can do?
His DSmash only hits if you're on the ground nearby. lol ok.

Long-range: Being able to attack the foe without worrying about being punished immediately afterward. lolwut.

This is amusing.

 

[SnowballBob33]

@MarKO X:

Items aren't playable.
You can spike an incoming Meta with a forward spike. (Like DK's or Mario's)
Which move is his momentum cancel? You mean like Bucket Braking?
Which ones are broken? You can grab them out of a DSmash and Shuttle Loop's knockback isn't that devastating. (Unless you're off the stage)
You don't have to attack him while he's in the air, he just can't "chase" you while you're both in the air.
You don't see his grab game as normal?
His DSmash only hits if you're on the ground nearby.

Long-range: Being able to attack the foe without worrying about being punished immediately afterward.

Oh my sweep jebus. -500 votes from anti ban side.
yea, royal blue is smex

 

[BadAxel97]

This is amusing.

Are you saying that items are playable?
...I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Sosuke]

He's saying that items are in the game just like MK is.
They're playable as in like, you CAN play with them.

 

[BadAxel97]

He's saying that items are in the game just like MK is.
They're playable as in like, you CAN play with them.

Oh ok, thanks for clairifying...
Wait a second! Did somebody just try to relate items to MK?
...

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Last I checked he beat Dojo in a 2-0 MM and his set against Tyrant was absurdly close.

Also, that post didn't directly target what I said at all. It didn't target how Diddy has known room to improve in the MU while MK doesn't, and it didn't target the actual match-up between the two.

Also, I've already targetted Fiction's post once in this thread, and multiple, mullltiple times in the blog he made on AiB about it (looking for that is easier, just search Fiction's blogs and find it) and how his statements were just skewed data, and how it's really easy to manipulate data to sound like it's in one person's advantage.

Tourney matters, it's the difference between $876 and $233, did they have a $600 mm? close=even? I still see MK winning it....

Yes, that answer that the matchup is in MK favor, not diddy's. Even if diddy does magically get better, what's to make this hypothetical situation immune to MK finding a way to beat diddy? Hypotheticals own, they are based on known facts and everything....

Just because a certain character didn't place high, doesn't mean that the match-up is any different. I could say the same about hobo17, "apparently Peach, Luigi, and Wario beat Diddy, but there were 3 Diddys in the top 8 lol).

Yeah, but we're talking about the matchup that made Diddy popular, you should expect to see more than 1 diddy in the top 25 of the second biggest tournament for Brawl. And don't those results show that Diddy is BETTER without MK (lol dojo used diddy...). Anyway, those results look a lot like genesis' with diddy replacing MK (snake is still #1). But honestly, hobo17 is impossible to use in this argument...there are so many reasons why diddy could do so well, and so many why snake could, and so many why etc. Let's stick to using normal tourney results. And not to mention that hobo's scale isn't quite that of genesis's in terms of the players that were there and who they all used...

and back to the actually argument here (sorry about doing this kind of backwards) Yes, a lack of diddys in a group of results with a lot of MKs tells me that diddy needs to keep stepping their game up. (read the hypothetical arguement and you'll realize that arguing about future character development is in many ways, a moot point)

While it doesn't prove anything, the fact that Ally and M2K beat each other a lot helps support the claim that the match-up is close.

Also, about the whole it not being important thing, I just made a large post about that that you can read.

We shouldn't even mention those 2 players, they are both 2222222222gud

It honestly wasn't a trap.

Okay, Street Fighter IV (Sagat) and Super Smash Brothers Melee (Fox).

They're all fighting games though and can give us evidence of things inherent in fighting games. Again for like the 10th time, I'm not saying, "SFIV hasn't banned Sagat so we're noobs if we try to ban MK lol." I'm saying, "Sagat has no bad match-ups and is the best character, yet there's still a healthy competitive metagame. There's no reason to say that MK ruins the metagame simply because he has no bad match-ups, as there's evidence with countless other fighting games that this isn't the case."

oh, It's a common move i saw in LD Highschool debate last year, it's a really good way to win if the AFF doesn't realize it.

I dont know jack about SFIV (besides daigo being BEAST) <_<, but i trust others do, and i know some people just jumped straight to it so argue with them on that one.

Fox really doesn't do as well as he should right now. Yeah, he doesn't have a "disadvantage" but he gets into enough even matchups (and his popularity) make it possible to beat him (possible=/= easy). But the thing is, he can be combo'd to 60%, multiple characters can cg him, they use his weight as the basis for a lot of combos. And marth arguably can mess with him just as well as fox can mess with marth. Oh and the fact that puffs have figured out the matchup to a high degree mean that puffs are incredibly knowledgeable on their worst matchup.

if MK could be comboed to 60% or comboed after 60% by most of the rest of the top tier AND could be gimped, then yeah, Fox would be like MK.

I really do need to get SF4 though, i haven't heard a bad thing about it, i just don't own a PS3 or 360, sorry

 

[UberMario]

-500 votes from anti ban side.

Ironically, that still wouldn't bet 66% for the pro-ban side.

And you can use items, but it's not the same as proving a character is ban-worthy as it's a totally different subject.

 

[Sosuke]

He was saying that just because he's in the game, it doesn't make him it ok to use competitively.
Just like items, in this case.

 

[SnowballBob33]

Hypothetical:
Everyone in SBR votes anti-ban, and everyone not in SBR votes pro ban.Who wins?

 

[Sosuke]

It's the SBR's ruleset, so they do. >_>

 

[BadAxel97]

Hypothetical:
Everyone in SBR votes anti-ban, and everyone not in SBR votes pro ban.Who wins?

I would think SBR...
But I'm voting anti-ban.

 

[MarKO X]

Hypothetical:
Everyone in SBR votes anti-ban, and everyone not in SBR votes pro ban.Who wins?

LOL.
This is the most amazing trick question I've seen in a while.

 

[UberMario]

Hypothetical:
Everyone in SBR votes anti-ban, and everyone not in SBR votes pro ban.Who wins?

How would you vote on a SBR Poll if you're not on SBR? That's a trick question.

 

[MarKO X]

How would you vote on a SBR Poll if you're not on SBR? That's a trick question.

Right.
Because this poll... doesn't actually exist.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Hypothetical:
Everyone in SBR votes anti-ban, and everyone not in SBR votes pro ban.Who wins?

Check the OP.


SBR is 2/3, this poll is 1/3.