Forward B Grab?

[∫unk]

How are some people doing the first hit of the dancing blade followed by a grab attack ground release followed by another dancing blade into another grab?

I've seen Roy_R do it on Hylian's G&W and Drago do it in the combo vid...

It has never really worked well when I tried. I'm just surprised that Hylian wasn't able to get out.

 

[DarkRunner00]

Can you link me to some of the videos

 

[Steel]

I've pondered it some myself, as first hit of dancing blade doesn't have enough stun time for that to work.

I think when a lot of people are hit by dancing blade they start to hold down shield on reaction (which is why 1st hit of dancing blade > shield breaker works so well). I just watched some of Drago's determination vid and that's what I saw.

You dancing blade
Opponent shields
You grab

Edit: I THINK if marth uses only the first hit of dancing blade he and his opponent both have to come to a neutral position before either can do anything. The same goes for the grab release (ground), each player comes to a neutral position on the same frame. So what you are talking about is just a reaction thing I think.
(i could be wrong though >_>)

 

[kouryuuXfighter]

^ He's right.

 

[iao]

I've been doing first hit of dancing blade into dsmash/fsmash/grab for a while now. As Steel said, after enough DB's people usually shield, so you can grab them, or they try to somehow DI out or do an attack, in which case you dsmash/fsmash or just ftilt/dtilt. Not super effective, but damage is damage. Could also lead to some good mindgames, with them not knowing if you will do the full DB or cut it short.

 

[∫unk]

Can't you just DI away and jump to avoid all o f these options?

And iao you must have some epic mindgames if you can connect with f-smash and grab at the right time because the opponent puts his shield up as a reaction to dancing blade, so this means that you've conditioned them to think that putting their shield up is bad cause of the grab, then correctly guessed that they wouldn't shield. Cause otherwise if they put up a shield that close to the smash you're just going to get punished.

 

[DarkRunner00]

Can't you just DI away and jump to avoid all o f these options?

And iao you must have some epic mindgames if you can connect with f-smash and grab at the right time because the opponent puts his shield up as a reaction to dancing blade, so this means that you've conditioned them to think that putting their shield up is bad cause of the grab, then correctly guessed that they wouldn't shield. Cause otherwise if they put up a shield that close to the smash you're just going to get punished.

Nice... explanation...

Junk is right though... An opponent who is scared of shielding Fmash... either isn't "that" good or you've mad them scared of shielding--Fmash is easily punished after shielded... and there is hardly a reason not to...

Um... DB -> Grab... Um... Junk have you tried DB -> Z-grab, I'm DBing and Z grabing (mashing Z during DB frames) and I have no problem... well i'm practicing on no DI comps... haha...

So never mind... but the grab seems to come out quicker... I'm just tired though...

 

[Kizzu-kun]

I've pondered it some myself, as first hit of dancing blade doesn't have enough stun time for that to work.

I think when a lot of people are hit by dancing blade they start to hold down shield on reaction (which is why 1st hit of dancing blade > shield breaker works so well). I just watched some of Drago's determination vid and that's what I saw.

You dancing blade
Opponent shields
You grab

Edit: I THINK if marth uses only the first hit of dancing blade he and his opponent both have to come to a neutral position before either can do anything. The same goes for the grab release (ground), each player comes to a neutral position on the same frame. So what you are talking about is just a reaction thing I think.
(i could be wrong though >_>)

The three spots in the Forward B doesn't seems to deal hitstun enough to you follow up with something. They probably will do a defensive move (roll, shield, dodge), most people just shield.

Well this isn't the same frame, otherwise the Marth Release GC wouldn't work in Lucas and Ness. But I guess most of characters are in the same frame. We can study if Marth have a slighty frame advantage in some match-ups, so this can work to setup things. Just saying, sometimes I do a ground release and follow up with a single A and my opponent doesn't seems to be able to shield properly (I simply guess that forgot to shield, but never knows yeah).

Where is Ankoku's thread about Marth Frame Data? That would be really useful to discover new things.

 

[iao]

It doesn't work 100%, and I usually only do it once a match if that. I usually do first hit of DB to dsmash. I have got away with fsmash a few times but I've found its alot slower and you see it coming more than dsmash.

 

[Steel]

It doesn't work 100%, and I usually only do it once a match if that. I usually do first hit of DB to dsmash. I have got away with fsmash a few times but I've found its alot slower and you see it coming more than dsmash.

This is a very unsafe thing to do, you can't just go around using smashes unless you KNOW they will hit - not if they "might" hit. You will easily get punished doing this.

If you wanted to do an attack out of first hit DB then do something safe like a dtilt. Heck, just finish off the dancing blade if you already got the first hit off. It's free damage and is safe.

edit: course i just saw you said you barely use it once a match. anyway, ill leave my post as is since that is easily punishable if your opponent simply shields.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why the **** would I stop my Dancing Blade on HIT so I can grab and do less damage?

WTF?

Go for the guaranteed **** people.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Why the **** would I stop my Dancing Blade on HIT so I can grab and do less damage?

WTF?

Go for the guaranteed **** people.

Because you know, seeking ways for a guaranteed grab is a good thing due the Release Grab options.

And studying attacks that already have a good follow up doesn't make any harm to the community.

 

[IDK]

if i feel like i can get off a ken combo i will sometimes use a tipper dancing blade to push them into position... and i usually get the grab.

 

[Steel]

^
???

10???

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's the thing though.

The grab isn't guaranteed.

It's a guessing game. Against higher level players this will not work. They will just hit you or roll away.

I would rather just go for the damage of the full Dancing Blade, then go for a guessing game.

 

[DarkRunner00]

How about... Fthrow Fsmash doesn't work... always because higher level players will just air dodge (but as a good Marth, Marths should react with not a Fsmash but an array of attacks, Fair, DB, Dash, etc.

Say... Fthrow Fsmash usually gets tips (ranging at 5-20% for light characters, 10 - 35% for heavier characters) Say... you want that 5 damage... DB into that and there's a nice amount of damage...

No matter high level players are... I'm sure that at some point they'll think they've got your playing style... pulling off something spontaneous... may help... I mean... I'm not sure the weight of this attack, but how unsafe is this? if this fails, you can hold grab -> shield right?

 

[∫unk]

I think Emblem's key point is that... you'll do more damage using dancing blade. And I agree. Only a bad opponent will get stuck in this, and if they're getting stuck in this they'll probably fall for worse stuff.

Okay I found the vid Roy R vs. Hylian (skip to 2:10): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z57R65vUqr4
Drago Combo vid (it's pretty much his main approach so you can see it throughout): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9cVTkP4_KQ

I think we can only assume Hylian just didn't realize that jumping or up b-ing could get him out of a ground break before marth can do anything until he took 20%+ from the same sequence....

Drago actually only uses it once... so he'll do the first hit of dancing blade then throw towards the edge to set up for an edge guard. This actually doesn't seem like a bad idea if you back throw the opponents off...

 

[xandeR-]

Well, what I'm using seems to be effective.

Basically I'm taking advantage of the fact that you can d-tilt to side-b rather easily.

Just switch between the first hit or few hits of side-b and d-tilt.

All you really do then is wait for them to try and hop over the stream of death coming at them and then you laugh and fair their face.

EDIT: Also, something I almost never see about side-b is that interesting effect it has on aerial opponents. It stops them dead in the air, allowing you to hit them with whatever you really want to (read: SPIKE).

 

[Retroking2000]

lets put it this way its like shine JC grab . >__> if your smart you'll know what i am talking about

 

[Jibbles]

It probably just screams mindgame.
Really, though, if you can truly follow the Dancing Blade with a grab, then you should be able to do a dancing blade infinite with only the first hit since it's faster than the grab (4 frames vs 6 frames). But since the DB infinite has been disproven I don't believe this truly sets up for the grab.

 

[takeurlife2]

That's the thing though.

The grab isn't guaranteed.

It's a guessing game. Against higher level players this will not work. They will just hit you or roll away.

I would rather just go for the damage of the full Dancing Blade, then go for a guessing game.

so i guess hylian isnt a higher level opponent?

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, Dancing Blade leads to so many glorious options all by itself. I'd never waste a good hit on a grab. In fact, I'd rather LET you shield my DB just to eat your shield. Now then I have some glorious options.

But, rarely would I ever not finish Dancing Blade. It does reliable damage and knockback even after getting depleted.

**** grabbing, lol.

 

[OmegaXF]

How are some people doing the first hit of the dancing blade followed by a grab attack ground release followed by another dancing blade into another grab?

I've seen Roy_R do it on Hylian's G&W and Drago do it in the combo vid...

It has never really worked well when I tried. I'm just surprised that Hylian wasn't able to get out.

Some of the time This is guaranteed. If my opponent is at a low% I can throw forward. If they dont airdodge then it can be followed up by f-air which is regular to see a marth do. But some times you can follow it by a >B and the hit will stun them in the air and carry on while they hit the ground. This can be properly DI but is hard to do. And on some heavier characters like Falco u can do this 2-3 time and finish it off with a F-smash. Thats what I know.

 

[Cisne]

"Grab > D throw > DB first hit" x2

This works for me. I only do it twice because is predictable. I release a full DB after that.

But as Emblem lord said , high level players wont eat it. Full DB is safer.

 

[Pierce7d]

Some of the time This is guaranteed. If my opponent is at a low% I can throw forward. If they dont airdodge then it can be followed up by f-air which is regular to see a marth do. But some times you can follow it by a >B and the hit will stun them in the air and carry on while they hit the ground. This can be properly DI but is hard to do. And on some heavier characters like Falco u can do this 2-3 time and finish it off with a F-smash. Thats what I know.

If I'm fighting Falco, I'm gonna chain throw him to his doom, and then tipper Fsmash/Fair, and then Gimp him.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Well at low percents couldn't you do DB first hit -> grab -> fthrow -> DB. or you could do some grab release things depending on the character.

 

[Mighty_mo76]

Yeah. I've seen Roy_r do it, but i think it's not RELIABLE. I was doing it and it's too easy to get out of.

I feel what EL is saying about the guessing game.

But like Yuki said: It doesn't hurt. Brawl is still a young baby, so we might as well explore.
(gotta admit though, that was nice when Roy_r did it )

 

[3xSwords]

See the second match in the hylian vs roy_r set. At the end he does one DB>grab. It worked b/c hylian was at 120% or something. So I guess 1 DB > grab is a combo at 100%+?

Anybody want to test this?

 

[Cloudstealth]

It's never 100% your opponent can, side step it every time. DB grab isn't safe, it only works if your opponent isn't expecting it, or if they try to do something. Hylian wasn't expecting it, and then he kept trying to hit back, and he got DB grabbed again. Try doing that to a Snake or MK you won't like the results.

 

[white peachy]

aside from release grabs you can use the first hit of dancing blade to do modified forward chain grabs also. do it once or twice and finish with an upb on characters like shiek at medium percents and you should get some kills. more than anything else this is to develop mindgames though, and DB to release grab or regular grabs are almost always escapable.

 

[Pierce7d]

The important part is to watch your opponents' reactions to your DB. If they try and shield most of the time, then begin to punish it with the grab mix up. Condition your opponent into shielding. Conditioning is key with Marth.

 

[IDK]

Why the **** would I stop my Dancing Blade on HIT so I can grab and do less damage?

WTF?

Go for the guaranteed **** people.

fthrow to d blade to fthrow till edge, then fthrow to jump> dair. i get a lot of spikes starting with a forward throw.

 

[Pierce7d]

Dear God. Teach your poor friends how to DI, retaliate, and mix it up, and stop picking on them.