For smash 4 to succeed, we need to change

[popsofctown]

That is so completely ignorant.

Explain M2K then.

He could have dominated one of the games even more if he focused on one, in all likelihood. That wouldn't maximize his winnings, though (and sticking to his favorite game, melee, would be a huge tank in winnings)

 

[mimgrim]

He could have dominated one of the games even more if he focused on one, in all likelihood. That wouldn't maximize his winnings, though (and sticking to his favorite game, melee, would be a huge tank in winnings)

I'm also sure a good number of popular Smash players who place well consistently also play some other fighting game as well and still do well.

There is no reason whatsoever to punish people for liking all the games and, if they train hard, being good at all the games. And believing it can't be done on a competitive level is just plain ignorance, all a person has to do is set their mind to it.

 

[Snakeyes]

Sorry, but even though Melee is one of my all-time favorites, I'm not going to support Smash 4 if the gameplay is unappealing to me just because it's Smash. If the bare minimum for my enjoyment (true combos and a good balance between offensive and defensive play) isn't there, I'm out. There are plenty of other fighting games worth playing out there, most of which treat their hardcore communities as a priority rather than an afterthought at best.

Which begs the question; why do you feel that Smash deserves to succeed and that it's our community's duty to make it so, OP? This isn't some amazing but criminally overlooked fighter that isn't getting its due time in the spotlight. Not only that, but out of all the popular fighting game series, it's the only one where the development team decided to remove a hidden layer of depth that was almost essential to our community's playstyle and proceeded to add a bunch of completely random elements to further discourage competitive play. Smash is the only series that needs to go through a lengthy process to get Nintendo's approval for its inclusion in the biggest fighting game tournament in the world, while any other company would be jumping for joy at the amount of free publicity. Finally, the Wii U's lack of wired controller support means we don't even know how Smash 4 will perform in a tournament setting.

I get the general sentiment behind your proposal, but a commitment has to go both ways, don't you think?

 

[nat pagle]

I'd argue that if Brawl didn't get all the hate that it has been since it's released, it would have had a much stronger competitive scene and would've been "better received".

Does hate equate to continuing to play it as opposed to quitting Brawl and focusing on Melee? A lot of big name Melee players didn't feel it was as competitively viable as Melee, they weren't necessarily hating on it, just not participating. Like choosing basketball over football.

Brawl's competitive reception from that context sprouted the hate for it. People didn't receive it badly because it had a lot of hate at the beginning, it grew because people didn't see it as a competitively viable alternative to Melee. It might have a stronger scene, but that would rely on people sticking with it, even without hate people would admit it doesn't have the same ceiling Melee does. Otherwise, nearly any game no matter what would develop a powerful scene simply because no one would be willing to display preferring another game.

And also, just because some pro players don't like a new installation to a series, doesn't mean it isn't a good competitive game.
Many pro Marvel vs. Capcom 2 players didn't like Marvel vs. Capcom 3 for instance.

In relation to Melee it's not. And who exactly can affirm it IS a good competitive game? Top players have more credibility, who exactly supersedes whatever judgment they give?

 

[kackamee]

Does hate equate to continuing to play it as opposed to quitting Brawl and focusing on Melee? A lot of big name Melee players didn't feel it was as competitively viable as Melee, they weren't necessarily hating on it, just not participating. Like choosing basketball over football.

Brawl's competitive reception from that context sprouted the hate for it. People didn't receive it badly because it had a lot of hate at the beginning, it grew because people didn't see it as a competitively viable alternative to Melee. It might have a stronger scene, but that would rely on people sticking with it, even without hate people would admit it doesn't have the same ceiling Melee does. Otherwise, nearly any game no matter what would develop a powerful scene simply because no one would be willing to display preferring another game.



In relation to Melee it's not. And who exactly can affirm it IS a good competitive game? Top players have more credibility, who exactly supersedes whatever judgment they give?

Sure a lot of pro players just didn't like the game, that's fair, everyone has opinions.
Brawl and MvC3 are pretty comparable to me because they were in very similar spots at release.
I remember during the first couple months of Brawls release, many pro melee players were terribly misquoted and a lot of hate mongering for brawl developed relatively quickly.
On the other hand, when MvC3 was released, some MvC2 pros retired, saying they didn't like the game, and that was pretty much the end of it.
Who can really say that the same could've happened for Brawl if it didn't garner all the hate it did, but I'm just saying it has made me not want to play Brawl a couple times when I read all the negativity associated with it.

 

[nat pagle]

Sure a lot of pro players just didn't like the game, that's fair, everyone has opinions.
Brawl and MvC3 are pretty comparable to me because they were in very similar spots at release.
I remember during the first couple months of Brawls release, many pro melee players were terribly misquoted and a lot of hate mongering for brawl developed relatively quickly.
On the other hand, when MvC3 was released, some MvC2 pros retired, saying they didn't like the game, and that was pretty much the end of it.
Who can really say that the same could've happened for Brawl if it didn't garner all the hate it did, but I'm just saying it has made me not want to play Brawl a couple times when I read all the negativity associated with it.

The difference between MvC2/3 and Melee/Brawl was that Melee's competitive viability was not intended. Wavedashing wasn't intended, L-cancelling got canned, and the overall jist of Brawl was for it to be casual. It was pretty obvious Brawl was not made to be competitive, it did not have nearly as many elements that made Melee competitive, etc.

 

[infomon]

This. It's one thing to play the comparison game, but it's a completely other thing to start complete wars over it. The amount of damage it's done for the past half-decade won't be rid of. We need to all be united; even if we prefer a different game.

I agree, but I think maybe the word "united" is too strong. We don't need to be united, we just need to have fun and not be jerks. I can prefer Brawl to Melee, but not go around saying "Melee sucks, Brawl is better". I can believe that MK should be banned and advocate this position, but appreciate that others disagree, and have fun at tournaments where MK is allowed and not get into fights over it.

An ample amount of tension in our community can be blamed on Brawl being a disappointment, in many ways. That's OK, we can admit that, and noone's saying we need to "support" a game that is genuinely disliked. The problem was never that some people wanted to keep playing Melee! But there was a problem in how the Brawl disappointment rippled throughout our communities. People would actively trash Brawl, discourage Brawl players, whine about its lack of techskill and blah blah blah.

We're all excited for smash4, but it could turn out awful. If it's bad then I won't play it, I expect the same from everyone here. But I expect it will be really good, and am going to give it a chance. Some smashers will not like it, that's pretty much guaranteed. If you don't like it, don't play it, but don't spread your negativity about it.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I agree, but I think maybe the word "united" is too strong. We don't need to be united, we just need to have fun and not be jerks. I can prefer Brawl to Melee, but not go around saying "Melee sucks, Brawl is better". I can believe that MK should be banned and advocate this position, but appreciate that others disagree, and have fun at tournaments where MK is allowed and not get into fights over it.
/quote]
United is a strong word, yes, but I think that's a good enough work to pick; not every person has to be united with everyone but everyone that wants to make the community just have to do their part. That's what I meant by the word united.

 

[infomon]

Yeah, that's fair. United let's be.

 

[popsofctown]

Let's focus on the ruleset stuff, because I don't see many viable solutions for the tongue thrashing Smash 4 will inevitably get. Any effective solution would be curtailing free speech, and I'm not sure I support that even in this context.

 

[Ulevo]

As far as being 'united' goes, the community was divided the moment the Smash community at that time was denied a competitive Smash sequel, and instead given a very different, poorly designed game. No one really cares that Brawl exists, to be honest. It's the fact that Brawl took the place of what Smash players in the Melee generation were hoping for, and then subsequently sucked away all of the tournament attendants and tournament focus away from Melee, that left a bad taste in everyones mouth. That's the reason the criticism started.

In order for this to not happen again, Smash Wii U needs to solve a lot of the problems Brawl had so that it is palatable, otherwise competitive players looking to enjoy a good game will feel like they were denied again, and the problem will persist, if not become worse.

It really isn't up to any one individual, or a group of individuals to make it happen. It depends on the games success.

 

[JV5Chris]

I don't buy into the idea that Brawl's or Melee's biggest hurdles stem from this community. Not when the developers' own lack of consideration for competitive Smash had such a far reaching impact on Melee's sequel and the following years in transition. Of course people were going to be split on the game. All this blame being passed around on each other is a byproduct of the stage Nintendo set.

 

[popsofctown]

It's totally a function of the community. If Brawl was released and the game on it was Pong, no one would play it, we would all play Melee. Maybe two people who are kind of into Pong would play Brawl. We would chuckle about their unusual preference but not feel an incentive to bash them for it because it's what they like, and they have a negligible impact on the size of the melee community. And their Brawl would still be a competitive game, any Melee player would probably lose to the Brawl players that had spent some time and effort learning how to move paddles back and forth to block the ball.

Brawl was not as flat as Pong or AmazingAmpharos's main (snicker). It has its own merits and there were some players who really liked it as much or more than Melee, or at least enough to try out something new. You can't assign blame to Nintendo for the game not matching Melee quality because if its quality was even lower, it would have split the community even less, as in the Pong example. The issue had a lot more to do with infighting and hating and verbal thrashing. There was actually tons of smash virgins out there that would prefer Melee to Brawl once they got into the scene, and while some of them used Brawl as a gateway to melee others were pushed away from the scene entirely due to the negative atmosphere. Project M is a really great project that in all likelihood would have happened in some form years sooner if there was not so much hostility and hatred.


It's a losing attitude to say only if Smash 4 is so good that every single melee player wants to convert will you support it or at least not hate on it vocally. That's impossible. Even if Smash 4 was a better game than melee some melee players would want to stick to melee because there's no way it will be better in every way. Melee is a really damn good game, you can't improve on games that good on every single dimension, that's true of Brawl to with its own different target audience. But hating on the new game is starting a rock fight in a glass house, everybody loses. The overall size of the community suffers.


Actually the situation is analogous to Prisoner's Dilemma, come to realize it. You can wikipedia it. "Bashing the other game" = "snitching", and "the size of your own community" = "shortness of prison term. The smash community needs to move to the "not snitching" corner that morally good people tend to pick in real life scenarios, because everything gets paid forward eventually.

 

[Hydde]

OP is totally delusional in what he says.

NO ONE is obliged to supprtt smash 4 if we dont like it. Like we did with Brawl..we will express our disatisfaction if the game is equally terrible.

But please, just dont sugarcoat it saying "We as a community failed".... when it was pretty much SAKURAI's FAULT FOR BEING SO STUBBORN AND A TOTAL JERK against the competitive community and trying to force us to play his stupid casual poor excuse of a Smash. HE FAILED ON US.

IM not expecting anything big for this game as a result. Ill NOT be fooled again.

 

[Hydde]

This thread caused more arguments then getting the actual idea off to people. I completely agree with you though, but this is how every gaming community is unfortunately.

Bull****.

Anyone who supports Brawl and said "move on", are just hypocrites jerks.

No sane smasher who enjoys melee, which is a quality product...can come out and say "yeh support smash 4 even if it is like brawl".

BULL**** BULLLLL****.

 

[nat pagle]

OP is totally delusional in what he says.

Not necessarily, the community does have an impact, but it doesn't cause massive calamities or anything. I wouldn't call him delusional.

NO ONE is obliged to supprtt smash 4 if we dont like it. Like we did with Brawl..we will express our disatisfaction if the game is equally terrible.

Yeah but it'd be preferable to not absolutely take a dump on it, but IMO that won't happen and really it wasn't TOO horrible with Brawl when it comes to trash talk.

But please, just dont sugarcoat it saying "We as a community failed".... when it was pretty much SAKURAI's FAULT FOR BEING SO STUBBORN AND A TOTAL JERK against the competitive community and trying to force us to play his stupid casual poor excuse of a Smash. HE FAILED ON US.

Sakurai has never and will never cater to the competitive community. It's simply a nonfactor to him. He has never fought against or failed the competitive community because it was not an influence to him.

IM not expecting anything big for this game as a result. Ill NOT be fooled again.

If you're expecting another Melee, don't be surprised if it's nothing near it. Melee's competitive viability was a mistake. More than likely Sakurai is just going to fix up what was generally seen as unwanted in Brawl to MOST consumers.

 

[Daedra]

Bull****.

Anyone who supports Brawl and said "move on", are just hypocrites jerks.

No sane smasher who enjoys melee, which is a quality product...can come out and say "yeh support smash 4 even if it is like brawl".

BULL**** BULLLLL****.

You call Melee a quality producted, pretty much saying brawl is ****, but why not support both considering they're both the same game series, no point in hating on your own game. I could understand if a smash player hated on a Marvel vs. Capcom game or whatever, but not their own..

 

[Hydde]

Sakurai has never and will never cater to the competitive community. It's simply a nonfactor to him.

Oh really?. It was SUCH a nonfactor that he singlehandedly destroyed everything that made melee the way it was... just to say "hey guys u will not play my game with ur buggy moves".

The way melee was played NEVER hurted casuals. People who played melee with infinite stocks and items never complained aout the game being too hardcore. If you wanted to take it hardcore you could, but you could also enjoy the game with all the crazyness it had and also was fun.

Sakurai decided to enforce us to ´play the game he wanted.. instead of embracing all the fans, he just selected the ones he wanted. HE FAILED ON US.

but why not support both considering they're both the same game series

Sorry but this goes against MY logic at least. I cannot support a product that i just dont like. I tried... i REALLY tried to enjoy brawl... but it simply was not th eproduct i was looking for. It was a pill tought to sweallow but in the end i had to accept that it just wasnt what i wanted.

I cant do that.

 

[popsofctown]

Melee isn't played with "buggy moves". Wavedashing is an intended possibility in the physics engine and L-cancelling is an intentional reference to smash 4.

 

[nat pagle]

Oh really?. It was SUCH a nonfactor that he singlehandedly destroyed everything that made melee the way it was... just to say "hey guys u will not play my game with ur buggy moves".

The way melee was played NEVER hurted casuals. People who played melee with infinite stocks and items never complained aout the game being too hardcore. If you wanted to take it hardcore you could, but you could also enjoy the game with all the crazyness it had and also was fun.

Sakurai decided to enforce us to ´play the game he wanted.. instead of embracing all the fans, he just selected the ones he wanted. HE FAILED ON US.

Melee was never meant to be competitive. Wavedashing was a fluke, why would he keep it in Brawl? Sakurai can make his game however he pleases, just because someone wants it to be uber technical doesn't mean he'll make it that way. Heck, only a small percent of Smash players are competitive at all. He never embraced us in the first place. He'd probably laugh at you if he cared about competitive Smash.

Melee isn't played with "buggy moves". Wavedashing is an intended possibility in the physics engine and L-cancelling is an intentional reference to smash 4.

Wavedashing was not an intended possibility. There is no way Sakurai was in support of it. And L-cancelling is a reference to Smash 4? What's that supposed to mean, let alone why would Sakurai include it after taking it out of Brawl?

 

[mimgrim]

No sane smasher who enjoys melee, which is a quality product...can come out and say "yeh support smash 4 even if it is like brawl".

I easily, even though I wouldn't force people to, as I genuinely like both Melee and Brawl equally, so it wouldn't really bother me all that much honestly.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not crazy, cause;

 

[popsofctown]

That is a pretty funny typo on my part.. smash64, not smash 4. Smash64 had zcancelling so melee has Lcancelling (which you can actually input with z if you so choose, I believe).

Wavedashing is not a glitch, it was not an intended way to use the mechanic, admittedly. But the choice to remove directional airdodging had nothing to do with its existence. All three smash games have used a different airdodging system.

 

[mimgrim]

That is a pretty funny typo on my part.. smash64, not smash 4. Smash64 had zcancelling so melee has Lcancelling (which you can actually input with z if you so choose, I believe).

The L in L-cancel means lag. :L

Z-cancel is called so because Z is the only button that, I think, can be used for it in 64.

 

[popsofctown]

The L in L-cancel means lag. :L

Z-cancel is called so because Z is the only button that, I think, can be used for it in 64.

ok. That doesn't contradict my post. I was pointing out the traditional nature of L-cancelling because you can still input it with Z.

 

[smashbro29]

What "we" (who the **** are we by the way?) need is less self righteous people telling us how to feel about the games we buy and play based on blind loyalty.

 

[mimgrim]

(who the **** are we by the way?)

We are, well, we. You is we. I is we, He is we. She is we. It is we. We is all encompassing. Sheldon is we. Mario is we. Peach is we. The piggies is we. Heartless is we. We is everything. Wewe all the way home.

 

[smashbro29]

We are, well, we. You is we. I is we, He is we. She is we. It is we. We is all encompassing. Sheldon is we. Mario is we. Peach is we. The piggies is we. Heartless is we. We is everything. Wewe all the way home.

I like that the Wii plays Gamecube games.

 

[Ulevo]

Wavedashing was not an intended possibility. There is no way Sakurai was in support of it. And L-cancelling is a reference to Smash 4? What's that supposed to mean, let alone why would Sakurai include it after taking it out of Brawl?

First of all, it was an intended possibility. People like you who decide to take this side of the fence need to start informing yourselves. He's even stated this within an interview. It even has its own designated action name within the code. And what he meant to say is that L-Cancelling is a reference to Smash 64, where it was called Z-Cancelling.

Sakurai made a lot of decisions with Brawl that he probably (hopefully) will see as mistakes and retract from his future decisions in the Smash series.

 

[Drclaw411]

I feel like no matter what we do or how good the game is, the loudest voices will scream "**** this play melee I like to wave dash against casuals lol."

 

[Chimera]

Bull****.

Anyone who supports Brawl and said "move on", are just hypocrites jerks.

No sane smasher who enjoys melee, which is a quality product...can come out and say "yeh support smash 4 even if it is like brawl".

BULL**** BULLLLL****.

You seem sane.


Marvel vs. Capcom 3 plays VERY differently than Marvel vs. Capcom 2. Not all changes were met with positive reaction. But he community noted it, said oh well, and moved on. And now mvc3 is still at EVO.

 

[TimeSmash]

Sorry, but even though Melee is one of my all-time favorites, I'm not going to support Smash 4 if the gameplay is unappealing to me just because it's Smash. If the bare minimum for my enjoyment (true combos and a good balance between offensive and defensive play) isn't there, I'm out. There are plenty of other fighting games worth playing out there, most of which treat their hardcore communities as a priority rather than an afterthought at best.

Which begs the question; why do you feel that Smash deserves to succeed and that it's our community's duty to make it so, OP? This isn't some amazing but criminally overlooked fighter that isn't getting its due time in the spotlight. Not only that, but out of all the popular fighting game series, it's the only one where the development team decided to remove a hidden layer of depth that was almost essential to our community's playstyle and proceeded to add a bunch of completely random elements to further discourage competitive play. Smash is the only series that needs to go through a lengthy process to get Nintendo's approval for its inclusion in the biggest fighting game tournament in the world, while any other company would be jumping for joy at the amount of free publicity. Finally, the Wii U's lack of wired controller support means we don't even know how Smash 4 will perform in a tournament setting.

I get the general sentiment behind your proposal, but a commitment has to go both ways, don't you think?

Wow, you know what? I love this post even though I don't want to agree with it. Honestly, snakeyes, that was great.

I don't want to agree with it, but a lot of it is true. If you mention Super Smash Bros. to anyone, chances are they've heard of it. BUT they haven't heard of the competitive scene, usually. Melee, actually all Smash games were made as party games to an extent. I don't think anyone could have predicted how advanced the rules and playstyle of this game got. Like others have said, I feel like Sakurai makes the game as he pleases, he wants it to be fun, random, and flat out crazy sometimes. Melee happened to have an amazing level of play under these factors, and the community was able to drop items, certain technqiues, and stages to make a whole different game. That wasn't the creator's intention, although the game was very technical. Sakurai didn't make that game for us. As much as I would like another Melee or Smash on that level, it might not happen for a while, and we have to face that. Will Smash 4 be as technical or speedy as Melee? Probably not, but that doesn't mean it won't have a competitive scene. And I'm not saying everyone in this community has to like it. Not being A-holes about it is preferred, though. Some people like apples, and others like oranges. Some people like both, and people should respect their views and treat them politely. I feel like that's not asking much. I fully agree with Snakeyes though that one does not need to necessarily support the scene for Smash 4 if they don't like it. But we can just be like "Oh, I like Melee better" and move on, instead of making a whole thing. (Not saying that's what Snakeyes' post was getting at, mind you/).

There's an interesting article I found on 1up.com that interviewed Sakurai's views on Melee. I quoted some of it below:

However, he [Sakurai] has one particularly deep regret: the game's accessibility level. "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

Accessibility has always been a watchword in Sakurai's design style, and there's little doubt he learned a lot from the Melee development experience. "If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in," he concluded, "then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before."

I honestly don't know why he would make the game as technical as is and not really imply for it to be so competitively based, and why he wouldn't keep the same sense of speed and style the previous games had, just embellishing it and adding things here or there. He wanted to make a completely different product, which can be interpreted from above. BUT that's just my interpretation.

 

[popsofctown]

There doesn't need to be a peace treaty and a yearly tribute, just a ceasefire on gamebashing attempts made out of fear of losing playerbase to a different game.

 

[nat pagle]

There doesn't need to be a peace treaty and a yearly tribute, just a ceasefire on gamebashing attempts made out of fear of losing playerbase to a different game.

People will bash games no matter what. Trying to stop them only ignites trolling.

 

[popsofctown]

People will bash games no matter what. Trying to stop them only ignites trolling.

I agree with that inevitability, that's why I suggested segregation as the only way to throttle the negative influence on new players.

 

[nat pagle]

I agree with that inevitability, that's why I suggested segregation as the only way to throttle the negative influence on new players.

Spam this video and all your Melee vs. Brawl vs. Sm4sh woes will go away.

 

[LiteralGrill]

This reminds me of 2008. Right now I'm reading through an old thread in my efforts to learn about the history of the community. Here's some stuff people were saying about Brawl about a week after it was released

@Mew2King: Blind predictions are the perfect way to describe the game.
@Scar: Was talking about how Din's Fire was really OP and how it was almost impossible to get through Pit's arrows.
@Wife: [collapse= His quote, it's BIG]Ok, are you chowder heads ready for the truth? The truth is, Brawl is a child's game, plain and simple. It was made for, and with the sole purpose of satisfying, small children or those who have no intention of putting out more effort than you would to play Jak and Daxter.

The writing is on the wall, and I'm so disappointed that we are as a community planning on moving forward with this game. I could really write a book on the endless shortcomings of Brawl, such as how it has about as much depth as a sandbox, but let me make my point: Brawl was made to ease the pain of persons who suffered in the face of complicated Melee gameplay. I mean, the dude even said it himself he doesnt want to the game to be so competitive. I've had the game since it's Japanese release and it seems abundently clear what the benefits of this game are . . .

Like to roll a lot? NO PROBLEM!! No big deal friend, you might get hit once, twice at worst. Roll away!

Can't space your upB on the ledge? NO WORRIES!! Feel free to check your cell phone while you play, you won't be punished. The auto-suck on ensures that EVERYONE can get back on the ledge, not just those with talent.

Can't train your fingers to WD, L-Cancel, or meteor cancel? DONT' SWEAT IT!! Now no one can, so the division of skill will be much more fair. Finally, thank god!!

There's some kid down the street who always whoops your *** and then makes fun of you in 7th grade science class? HELP IS HERE!! Because now with Brawl, you can basically mash your palm against the controller and make great things happen.
**** guy, for that matter, he'll be so busy tripping randomly you can just get him then.
Or **** man, after you hit him you'll have a good 12 seconds before he comes back down again so you have plenty of time to plan your next attack. This way there will be no pressure whatsoever during the match.

That's because in Melee you were forced to make bsplit second decisions, supported by split frame timing and precise finger movements. ON TOP of the mind games which people are flaunting as the upside of Brawl.
If Melee was Fight Club, then Brawl is like, you know when you would wrestle in those ball pits? You could pretend you were Edward Norton, but everything is padded anyway and besides you know your mom is watching from outside anyway just in case.

Melee still has years left on it. We were just figuring it out. M2k was discovering new things up to the end, and some random kid won the last tournament. There's no reason we can't keep playing Melee.

My final argument and then I'll finish:
How on earth are you going to convince a girl that playing smash for a living isn't so stupid? In Melee you could explain the complex mechanics, the sophisticated mental battles, and high level of competition.
How are you going to get any *** at all if you have to explain why you spend your weekends playing Brawl? Just look at it. It's ****ing embarrassing. [/collapse]

These are three people who looking back now might think what they said was silly now that it isn't 2008, (seriously guys if you see this know I don't hold you to these things and this next bit isn't all only about you) but guess what they STILL SAID IT. People the community respected and listened to. If the people you respect say things, you are more likely to listen, even if they are really uniformed or just plain wrong. Heck, I'm seeing stuff in this thread and others discussing Brawl where people STILL DO NOT HAVE THE REAL INFORMATION and believe lies to this very day because someone they respect told them or they just heard it somewhere. DO you know the hazards on Norfair are on a pattern? Do you know items DO NOT actually spawn next to the losing player? Do you know that the klap trap on Japes is on a timer? Do you know that Game and Watch's hammer is not effected by the clock in any way? Guess what, several times this month I had to tell people these things because they didn't know and were told by someone this was the truth.

In this case, yes Melee haters DID gimp Brawl. Yes, Brawl SHOULD have overcome it true, and yes a lot of people did whine a lot about just being hated by Melee when they should have toughened up and shown love for their game, but why do this again? It's already happening with the Wii U and the 3DS.

ALREADY!!! ​

Why? What is the point? Why wont people understand you can enjoy your game, not like the other person's game, express that the game isn't for you, and just go on and play the game you want to INSTEAD OF GOING OUT OF THE WAY TO HATE ON THE OTHER GAME AND TELL PEOPLE WHO PLAY IT THEY ARE STUPID!?!?!?!

There's the issue, because even to this day people can't just have an opinion while not trying to force it on someone else. And if this happens again we're going to do to the young community that will come in for smash 4 EXACTLY what we did to the young community that came in for Brawl gimping their and our own development of the game and the meta.

Side note, the young community also is a bit of a reason why Brawl is on such a decline today as well, and part of it was we didn't help set them up for success and sometimes even tried to just make them fail. It's sad really.

 

[popsofctown]

It really bugged me that people said super dumbass things like Wolf Fsmash OP, Pit OP, DIN'S FIRE OP (wtf?) and never had to come back and apologize for asserting many things with a high degree of certainty that are totally wrong.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It really bugged me that people said super ******* things like Wolf Fsmash OP, Pit OP, DIN'S FIRE OP (wtf?) and never had to come back and apologize for asserting many things with a high degree of certainty that are totally wrong.

Personally, it doesn't bother me as much as some of it was so obvious eventually and the fact people were saying it during the first week the game was out.

It's the things that people still say to this day even though they are false that are really the issues as the permeate the community with false information.

 

[Renji64]

Sorry, but even though Melee is one of my all-time favorites, I'm not going to support Smash 4 if the gameplay is unappealing to me just because it's Smash. If the bare minimum for my enjoyment (true combos and a good balance between offensive and defensive play) isn't there, I'm out. There are plenty of other fighting games worth playing out there, most of which treat their hardcore communities as a priority rather than an afterthought at best.

Which begs the question; why do you feel that Smash deserves to succeed and that it's our community's duty to make it so, OP? This isn't some amazing but criminally overlooked fighter that isn't getting its due time in the spotlight. Not only that, but out of all the popular fighting game series, it's the only one where the development team decided to remove a hidden layer of depth that was almost essential to our community's playstyle and proceeded to add a bunch of completely random elements to further discourage competitive play. Smash is the only series that needs to go through a lengthy process to get Nintendo's approval for its inclusion in the biggest fighting game tournament in the world, while any other company would be jumping for joy at the amount of free publicity. Finally, the Wii U's lack of wired controller support means we don't even know how Smash 4 will perform in a tournament setting.

I get the general sentiment behind your proposal, but a commitment has to go both ways, don't you think?

You have alot of great points.

 

[nat pagle]

It really bugged me that people said super ******* things like Wolf Fsmash OP, Pit OP, DIN'S FIRE OP (wtf?) and never had to come back and apologize for asserting many things with a high degree of certainty that are totally wrong.

Why analogize for an outdated metagame? Should we go back to 2006 Melee boards and say "sorry for all the outdated aspects of our metagame"?