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For smash 4 to succeed, we need to change

grizby2

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
1,166
Location
Upland California
Hold on a second, I've played melee for a while and unless the player you are playing against is massively better than you one grab does not = a stock. Even when I played my brother's friends who are full casual they still manage to put some sort of a fight up. ....

ah ha! see guys? i knew it!
casual players DO desire victory!


OT: i prefer brawl much more to melee, but every once in awhile with my pals, i'll want to wipe the rust off and feel the mechanics of melee again. i still love melee. and if smash 4 is the same as melee, then logic dictates that i'll love smash 4 as well. if you can learn to like both games, then smash 4 will be a win-win <3
 

gantrain05

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
3,840
Location
Maxwell, IA
i can't argue that melee takes more practice to get on pro level, i'm just stating that i don't think it really matters how difficult it is to get to top level play, its what you do once you get there. imo it makes it more enjoyable to watch and its easier for new smashers to get into, which is better for community growth. honestly im not taking sides in the debate i love both games equally, i just feel like the melee guys attack brawl constantly and it happened for a long long time before the brawl people even really started hitting back.

i guess i enjoy both games for different reasons tho, for me melee is adrenaline pumping, fast paced, and exciting which is great. brawl for me is like...chess i suppose? don't need quite as much muscle memory and you more or less beat your opponent by out thinking them.
 

HammerHappy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
178
Actually what can be summed up simply is how crap Brawl was and how easily people will ignore SSB4 for melee if they show that they didn't learn from their mistakes.

There is nothing to debate about this, because a debate involves both sides having a foundation of logic and facts to back them. Anyone saying Brawl deserved the same competitive attention as Melee is delusional or willfully ignorant.

But it really makes you appreciate how much is riding on the success of SSB4.
1) A large portion of dedicated Smash Bros Fans playing their game
2) A bunch of WiiU units, God knows they need to sell those
3) The potential for greater competitive recognition among the fighting games
4) The community can all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" at what will hopefully be the good aspects of Brawl and Melee combined.
 

D-idara

Banned via Administration
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Actually what can be summed up simply is how crap Brawl was and how easily people will ignore SSB4 for melee if they show that they didn't learn from their mistakes.

There is nothing to debate about this, because a debate involves both sides having a foundation of logic and facts to back them. Anyone saying Brawl deserved the same competitive attention as Melee is delusional or willfully ignorant.

But it really makes you appreciate how much is riding on the success of SSB4.
1) A large portion of dedicated Smash Bros Fans playing their game
2) A bunch of WiiU units, God knows they need to sell those
3) The potential for greater competitive recognition among the fighting games
4) The community can all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" at what will hopefully be the good aspects of Brawl and Melee combined.
Brawl wasn't crap at all, it was many people's favorite Smash Bros.

For Smash 4 to succeed, the Melee community needs to change, the Brawl community easily moved on from Melee to Brawl and they'll move from Brawl to SSB4 because Brawl players are able to accept change and they don't close themselves inside that little wavedashing bubble.
 

smashmachine

Smash Lord
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
1,285
Brawl wasn't crap at all, it was many people's favorite Smash Bros.

For Smash 4 to succeed, the Melee community needs to change, the Brawl community easily moved on from Melee to Brawl and they'll move from Brawl to SSB4 because Brawl players are able to accept change and they don't close themselves inside that little wavedashing bubble.
that's adorable, guess which community has lasted longer and is currently bigger
 
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D-idara

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that's adorable, guess which community has lasted longer and is currently bigger
Guess which community is still stuck on a game from 10 years ago that has glaring flaws they refuse to accept?
 

smashmachine

Smash Lord
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
1,285
Guess which community is still stuck on a game from 10 years ago that has glaring flaws they refuse to accept?
that's pretty funny, because when you ask other FGC people (and hell, even beyond just competitive fighting game players) on their opinion of Melee vs Brawl, most of them praise Melee while saying Brawl sucks, and lo and behold Melee is bigger
so who's really not moving on?
 

D-idara

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that's pretty funny, because when you ask other FGC people (and hell, even beyond just competitive fighting game players) on their opinion of Melee vs Brawl, most of them praise Melee while saying Brawl sucks, and lo and behold Melee is bigger
so who's really not moving on?
The people who hate Brawl just because it's not Melee?
 

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
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This entire topic is what's wrong with the community. Everybody needs to accept that every SSB is different and that there is no superior game. That'll never happen because of the sheer fanboyism to every game. Solution? No more smash vs. smash debates. Period. The Melee people will be stuck with Melee, Brawl with Brawl, and 4 with 4. Then every community can have it's own affairs and fanboys can't come in and say 'mines better lol'.
 

pitthekit

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
588
Location
in a crate
This entire topic is what's wrong with the community. Everybody needs to accept that every SSB is different and that there is no superior game. That'll never happen because of the sheer fanboyism to every game. Solution? No more smash vs. smash debates. Period. The Melee people will be stuck with Melee, Brawl with Brawl, and 4 with 4. Then every community can have it's own affairs and fanboys can't come in and say 'mines better lol'.
I am sure mathematically there is some way to tell which game is better... Although what I just said could be utter trash.


Smash vs smash debates let people express themselfs... And maybe learn something new.

Stop necroing threads.
 

D-idara

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I am sure mathematically there is some way to tell which game is better... Although what I just said could be utter trash.


Smash vs smash debates let people express themselfs... And maybe learn something new.

Stop necroing threads.
No, because most of both game's flaws are viewed as good things on their respective fans' eyes.
 

Pazzo.

「Livin' On A Prayer」
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
9,187
This entire topic is what's wrong with the community. Everybody needs to accept that every SSB is different and that there is no superior game. That'll never happen because of the sheer fanboyism to every game. Solution? No more smash vs. smash debates. Period. The Melee people will be stuck with Melee, Brawl with Brawl, and 4 with 4. Then every community can have it's own affairs and fanboys can't come in and say 'mines better lol'.
Agreed. In order for any competitive scene to thrive, we need real unity.

Sakurai, who loves to put the control in the player's hands, has given Smash a WIDE selection of choices... unfortunately, everyone thinks their way is best.

If anything, we need to all agree to disagree. I'm not going to have the same opinions as you, and you're not going to agree with me or anyone else 100 % of the time.
 

Renji64

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
1,988
Location
Jacksonville FL
I'm just gonna accept smash 4 for what it is i just hope there is combos like melee and it is a fast paced less campy game. I need to stop having such high expectations for the series. I just hope smash 4 will be appealing to non brawl fans as well and doesn't play like brawl and feels like a new game. It seems like brawl+ HD atm.
 

Big-Cat

Challenge accepted.
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We have little in the way of saying that this is Brawl HD. If anything, this game is faster than Brawl. It may not be as fast as Melee but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
 

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
A lot of problems Brawl had were created by the people who tried to craft the ruleset for it... Guess what game they based their ideas on? People created problems in Brawl by not testing everything over again and just assuming things would be close enough to Melee to get away with not testing. The game could be WAY better had they gone into the new game with an open mind. THAT is a change we need to make, going into Smash 4 like w know nothing about smash again to make sure we don't mess up the game OURSELVES.

ALL of the games though have merit. Seriously, they are all made for people who like different things. 64, Melee, Brawl all cated in a way to different people. We're the luckiest fighting game series EVER for this happening, you can pick the game that suits you best and roll with it. It's amazing how most people don't realize that that is a GOOD thing and would rather bash each game for being different. It makes NO sense...

Random game vs game flamewars just ruin everything for everyone. We already have 3DS vs Wii U AND THE GAME ISN'T EVEN OUT YET!!! WHY?!?!?!!?

Again, let's give the whole thing a big chance and enter with a completely open mind and see what happens.
 

The Slayer

RAWR!
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Here's hoping with a clear mind, because I just realized there are two versions of Smash 4. Which is going to take those Smash vs Smash arguing on a whole new level.
 

pitthekit

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
588
Location
in a crate
No, because most of both game's flaws are viewed as good things on their respective fans' eyes.
If a games flaw is viewed as good and not a flaw by other people...

Then maybe what you perceive as a flaw could be purely opinion.

And you don't think that smash vs smash threads express peoples thoughts?

I can go make that a fact right now by expressing my thoughts on both games.

Agreed. In order for any competitive scene to thrive, we need real unity.

Sakurai, who loves to put the control in the player's hands, has given Smash a WIDE selection of choices... unfortunately, everyone thinks their way is best.

If anything, we need to all agree to disagree. I'm not going to have the same opinions as you, and you're not going to agree with me or anyone else 100 % of the time.
I don't think my way is the best.. I always change my opinions when I have more facts... I never bother with my opinion sometimes because it is flawed... So I never listen to my opinion and never share it.

The only thing I know is science and maths... They help me find the truth and even create things (Technologie!
). When I make decisions I try my best to pay attention to all the variables that might occur and try to get a desired result.
I know people are powerful. All it takes is a knife to kill me... Unless I use technology to fix that problem.

I find everything in this universe fascinating my thoughts change a lot... I know I am predicable, and of low intelligence.

I know people have complex thoughts are complex beings... I find people to be the most interesting organism on this planet.

I know a lot of people are better than me like 99.9% of the people on this site.

I know there are people out there who are like me... I am not special.

Hehehe I just stated my opinion and thought hehe logical fallacies.

Also none of you should take me serious and treat this post like trash.
 
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Renji64

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
1,988
Location
Jacksonville FL
Part of me wants to buy smash 4 blindly but after brawl it wouldn't be smart to do that. Sakurai is attempting to aim for a middleground whatever he means by that it should be better for everyone overall hopefully. I'm not asking for him to make a melee 2.0 or brawl 2.0 but he had some stuff that appealed to melee fans as well it would be great.
 

Morbi

Scavenger
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
17,168
Location
Speculation God, GOML
This entire topic is what's wrong with the community. Everybody needs to accept that every SSB is different and that there is no superior game. That'll never happen because of the sheer fanboyism to every game. Solution? No more smash vs. smash debates. Period. The Melee people will be stuck with Melee, Brawl with Brawl, and 4 with 4. Then every community can have it's own affairs and fanboys can't come in and say 'mines better lol'.
I honestly agree with the topic. Smash needs to alter something significant if it is to succeed. Brawl was actually quite diverse just because of Subspace Emissary. So far, it seems like Smash 4's big gimmick is that it is also on a handheld console, that isn't necessarily innovative. Sakurai implied that they wouldn't focus on excessive roster additions either. So I am worried, that might just be me though.

Doable post
This post is so doable.
 

PreacherDudeRox

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
365
Location
At yo' crib, stealing yo' waifu.
Very soon, we're going to know a lot more about smash 4 than we already do, and it's quite possible that the game itself is getting pretty near. I haven't really been active in the smash community in a few years, but I've spent a whole lot of time thinking about how things went with Brawl. To be brutally honest, we as a community have really failed to realize the potential the series has. As far as I can tell, attendance on everything is down from where it was when I was active, and compared to truly successful competitive games like League of Legends, we never were anything in the first place. I firmly believe that none of this is smash itself's fault; the smash games are brilliant games, and they have an incredible potential for both widespread appeal and deep competition. I think we fail to realize this potential because of what is at core one single issue, a truly crippling one that is entirely self inflicted:

We don't work together.

For serious, just look at all the major issues that came up during the years of Brawl's lifespan as our main game:

-Melee vs Brawl. This stupid argument carried on for years, and it was an absolute toxin on the entire community. I could go on for hours about how terrible this argument was, but it can be summed up simply. Brawl was the new game and was absolutely inevitably going to be the main game of the community. A relatively small but extraordinarily vocal set of people decided to raise as much hell as possible to try to fight this. All the rest of us played into their game and one way or another took sides, and years later, here we are, divided.

-Meta Knight. Honestly after about a year we should have realized that we were really never going to ban him, but for basically the game's entire lifespan we fought it, constantly re-arguing about how we were going to ban him but then never doing it. Eventually we did... and then we settled on undoing that. Winner? No one. Loser? All of us.

-Stages. There were basically two competing and polar opposite visions of what the stage list for the game should be. We started with a very "liberal" stage list, but there was always a war over it and a dynamic that guaranteed the eventual victory of the "conservatives". Stages that were banned were almost never unbanned, and all they had to do was get something banned in one region and rely on time until that ban would spread. Players in a region with any given stage banned would have no experience on it and would inflate the ranks for banning it, and momentum would inevitably build. After one set of "controversial" stages was finally mostly banned, new stages could be thrown into our never ending battle. Eventually we were down to single digit remaining stages, and nowhere on this road did the regions agree on a stage list.

These large problems and several other small ones had the common theme that we as a community dedicated an overwhelming amount of effort to fighting each other, and for it we had to show a lot of hurt feelings and a game that was literally not the same game between two different events. The backroom in theory was supposed to resolve this by limiting discussion to a handful of experts, but as someone who was involved, I can say in practice it didn't work to that effect. What we the broader community spent a lot less effort on was promoting the game and growing the community. We'd even go so far as to carry our petty arguments with each other outside of our community. When you go on SRK, someone from outside of the community posts that smash sucks, and the response from us they get is "well, Brawl sucks, but Melee is different!", what does that tell them and anyone else reading that exchange other than that we're just a joke? It certainly does nothing to encourage anyone to play any smash game, Melee or Brawl.

So far it seems like I've just been ranting about how bad everyone is, but don't mistake me. I am very much a part of this community, and I in no way am trying to place myself above any of this. I was in the trenches every step of the way fighting for "my side" in these battles while doing fairly little else for the community, and for that I certainly share guilt, probably more than most of you reading this. I'm saying everything here not to try to act superior to anyone; I'm saying that WE messed up, and WE need to do better this time.

Now is the time to talk about this too; smash 4 is close, but it's still enough of an unknown that we can talk about it in the abstract with no bias at all based on the particulars of what is going on with it. This is best as, to be honest, none of those particulars matter. When smash 4 comes out, it will be our main game. We will have a massive influx of new players, and it will be for a time very easy to draw many more if we devote our efforts to that purpose. This is an overwhelmingly massive opportunity for our community, and given that it takes an average of half a decade for us to get new smash games, we cannot afford to squander it. Before anything else, we need to agree that we're all going to do one simple, basic thing:

We must all work together. We will all support smash 4 or at the very least refrain from attacking it. The inevitable handful of trolls who cannot do that will be treated as such and rejected by the rest of us. From day one, we need a true unity ruleset used at every tournament coast to coast in North America as well as in Europe and Australia, and we need it to be truly representative of our collective will with no gaming of the process by anyone to accomplish an agenda. Once decisions are made, we need to stick to them. If we decide we're going to ban something or for that matter not ban something, we are not going to re-litigate it over years while pressuring any TO we can find. We're not going to repeat the ever shrinking stage list until we're playing on a single digit number of stages, but we're also not going to try to force people to play on everything under the sun out of our own personal principles. I would be lying if I said I didn't have tons of ideas about the best ways to go about things. I've thought nearly endlessly about the particulars of how we could do better, but in the end, I see the same fundamental roadblock that we must overcome first. We need to work together, every one of us, as a united smash community. If we can just agree on that one thing, we will have accomplished the first, biggest, and most important step to making smash 4 a wildly larger success as a competitive community game than Brawl ever was. So please, are you guys with me on this? Smash 4 can be the biggest competitive game of this generation, but we all need to be on board for it to happen.
I agree.

It's hard to say much more, but I will say that we as a community have got to stop being so elitist.
 

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
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Buried under 990+ weapons
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Yes it could.

Given the proper variables and blah blah people can change thoughts.

Will people stop being racist?
Yes.
Knowledge and understanding.

Why are humans so complex QQ.
It could happen.
...Centuries from now, when the government can reprogram people.
We're talking about in our lifetimes. What'd be quicker, everybody somehow coming to an agreement, or simply taking away the privilege of arguing it?
 

PikaJew

Banned via Warnings
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Messages
718
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at temple
**** l-cancelling.

If a move is going to give you so much landing lag then don't use it right when you're about to hit the ground... dumba$ses
 
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cmvnb3

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
103
Heh, there wouldn't have been an on-going problem for years on end if you people knew how to effectively debate. You see, your first problem was that you didn't even define what "better" meant in melee vs brawl. Was it an objective meaning such as technical depth, or would it also consider more subjective qualities like animation styles? After you actually have a basis for a coherent argument you could have then gotten somewhere in debating which game was superior. Long story short, since you lacked the capacity to properly discuss it, that alone proved that your crummy opinions didn't matter in the FIRST PLACE! COME AT ME, SCRUB-DEBATERS! j/k(please don't axe me)
 

pitthekit

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
588
Location
in a crate
It could happen.
...Centuries from now, when the government can reprogram people.
We're talking about in our lifetimes. What'd be quicker, everybody somehow coming to an agreement, or simply taking away the privilege of arguing it?
Ahh being reprogrammed.

One of our human flaws is memory so having computer parts would be so good.

Too bad it comes with the side effect of being controllable.

But hey! With the right genetic material(virus can somewhat do it).. I can control you ooo!

Technology is soo amazing.
 

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
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Buried under 990+ weapons
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Heh, there wouldn't have been an on-going problem for years on end if you people knew how to effectively debate. You see, your first problem was that you didn't even define what "better" meant in melee vs brawl. Was it an objective meaning such as technical depth, or would it also consider more subjective qualities like animation styles? After you actually have a basis for a coherent argument you could have then gotten somewhere in debating which game was superior. Long story short, since you lacked the capacity to properly discuss it, that alone proved that your crummy opinions didn't matter in the FIRST PLACE! COME AT ME, SCRUB-DEBATERS! j/k(please don't axe me)
Because there isn't. It's 100% opinion on which is better.
 

infomon

Smash Scientist
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
5,559
Location
Toronto, Canada
To be brutally honest, we as a community have really failed to realize the potential the series has. As far as I can tell, attendance on everything is down from where it was when I was active (...)

We don't work together.
Brawl was an amazing opportunity -- the massively hyped new game brought *swarms* of excited newbies to the periphery of the competitive scene.

We were closed to them; that was our failure. When tournaments happened, they weren't being advertised outside of smashboards / other competitive sites. You've got to put it out to your schools, your cities! Provide the opportunity for the casuals to find their way in! I love smashboards but it's not exactly a super welcoming place -- it's too difficult to find the regional zones, find people to WiFi against, find friendly info that isn't full of "****', "sucks", "lose".

We all have a role in running smashfests that welcome newcomers, and are open to their ideas. Stop flaming the new kids; kindly explain why fighting CPUs is not a good measure of player skill, etc. etc. Get them in as volunteers for local smashfests and tourneys!

If enough people ask about items, then have an items tournament! Who friggin cares!? When the new, expanded community re-discovers that the items are too noncompetitive, they'll decide for themselves to turn them off. (If that turns out to be true in ssb4, of course ;))

We've got to teach people what we know, and realize how much we *don't know*. Do you have any idea all the garbage that veteran smashers told me about how Brawl's game mechanics worked...... super early on in the game, and told me all about what stages were fair and what characters should be banned. Then I spent some serious effort studying the game myself, and concluded they didn't have any idea how Brawl worked.

Newbies are *awesome*: they're excited, they're having fun, they bring hype and setups and volunteers and $$ to up the stakes at tournaments!

For sure the flood of newcomers can be hard to deal with at times. They will have strange online (and offline!) manners, they'll say silly things and have strange ideas about competitive play. I was one of them, we were all there once. When Brawl came out, we also had a lot of much younger kids entering the scene, and that has its own set of challenges but we need to be prepared to welcome them.

-----
From day one, we need a true unity ruleset used at every tournament
This, AA, I'm not sure about. Too soon after Brawl's release, the elitist "smash back room" came out with a ruleset that was garbage. They didn't know what they were talking about.

I'd maybe rather if local scenes felt more authority to play the game the way they like. It will take us a long time to figure out how the game really works, what stages/techniques/items/characters need to be banned and what don't, how long the timer should last etc. The metagame will NOT start out consistent across the planet, so I don't see why the rulesets need to be.

Instead, how about we just agree not to flame each other over different rulesets for a while? Try out lots of options, let's all just HAVE FUN playing the game in different ways, until slowly and collectively we evolve an understanding of what a good competitive rulelist might look like? That way noone's left trying to justify rules they can't explain (I was a Smash Back Room apologist back in the day! While they kept their reasons secret to the outside! Oh the hilarity), and TOs can do what's best to keep their region engaged.
 

smashmachine

Smash Lord
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
1,285
A lot of problems Brawl had were created by the people who tried to craft the ruleset for it... Guess what game they based their ideas on? People created problems in Brawl by not testing everything over again and just assuming things would be close enough to Melee to get away with not testing. The game could be WAY better had they gone into the new game with an open mind. THAT is a change we need to make, going into Smash 4 like w know nothing about smash again to make sure we don't mess up the game OURSELVES.

ALL of the games though have merit. Seriously, they are all made for people who like different things. 64, Melee, Brawl all cated in a way to different people. We're the luckiest fighting game series EVER for this happening, you can pick the game that suits you best and roll with it. It's amazing how most people don't realize that that is a GOOD thing and would rather bash each game for being different. It makes NO sense...

Random game vs game flamewars just ruin everything for everyone. We already have 3DS vs Wii U AND THE GAME ISN'T EVEN OUT YET!!! WHY?!?!?!!?

Again, let's give the whole thing a big chance and enter with a completely open mind and see what happens.
like getting rid of Meta Knight early? :metaknight:
 

RelaxAlax

That Smash Guy
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
1,318
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Ontario
I usually stray from this topic because you're wrong no matter what you decide to say, so I'll write this as thoroughly as possible. Usually my strong suit.

We can't compare between Melee and Brawl. They are both good for their own reason and people choose one over the other or often times play both. They are games, and expecting them to be the same is disastrous. People find different drives of competition in each, and from experience, different emotions and strategies are needed to play both competitively. In essence, they are the same beast, but it's like comparing Canadian Football to American Football (Hopefully people familiar can draw such parallels, and instead of finding the few flaws with this analogy to bash me, will instead be more open to what I have to say)

As an aside, yes, Smash 4 will be more popular because it's the newest entry to the series. To a periodical game like this, new generations become interested in it. Popular doesn't always mean better (Have you listened to the radio?) but it does mean there's more awareness for it. We need to remember our place in the grand scheme of things - Smashboards (And other similar forums) and competitive play are a small (Vocal) minority of people who play this game. When the game arrives, it's no kidding it's most popular of the series and people will leave behind Brawl. Even hardcore players must love the series and will give it a chance. However, how we act now will determine what kind of community we will create in coming years and whether Smash 4 will stay popular.

We need to go into Smash 4 uninhibited by predispositions created by previous entries of the series. Fox from Brawl is not Fox from Melee. There are some predispositions that are inevitable in the competitive scene, and arguably make decisions down the road easier, such as no items and stage choices (arguments over these two can span academic essays) but even in these cases we attempt to have a neutral account of the game.

AmazingAmpharos' thesis is correct - We need to work as a team rather than internally corrupt ourselves for selfish reasons. Of course, it's impossible for every Super Smash Bros player to read these words, and even so, there will be those users that infect the integrity of this goal. But we need players to step up and be leaders who can make a difference. Co-operation is key - sharing opinions and breaking down your walls of opinions make progress. Ignorance and pride lead to senseless arguments that can be avoided.

Leadership is not about the one person that tries to lead people. In fact, arguably leadership is more in the hands of the second person willing to stand out in a crowd than the initial trigger. ( Food for thought, this video speaks wonders about what I'm trying to say -
)

If we have leaders, like AmazingAmpharos, that try to make a change for the better by standing out, and it can only help the community (PLEASE do not take 'leader' as a 'dictatorship'. That's a bad stereotype and only poisons the credibility of what leaders are). We need to let go of what we prefer and look towards the whole community. These are the leaders that Smash 4 needs in order to succeed and prosper, and anything less will become a re-occurrence of the prior entries.

So what will we do?
 
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