Yes. Sure Ganon kills G&W in a few hits. But G&W challenges Ganon's range easily and combos him for free. Something to practice in that MU is fair spacing.
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Floating to the Top v3.6: The Ganondorf Match Up Thread
- Thread starter Hungry Headcrab
- Start date
Okay what the actual **** are you supposed to do about Ness's recovery.
I can deal with them in neutral, I can get the damage in, but then I get them offstage and I'm just at a total loss. We don't have the speed to go out there and challenge them or run into the PK Thunder unless they're doing it really close to the stage, and yeah sure you can thwack them when they land on stage but they just keep on coming back again and again. And then eventually you mess up and let them back and then they get one grab than that's like 50 ****ing percent right there and then oh well there goes your lead. Or you mess up and eat the PK Thunder 2 and die.
Almost every set of mine against a Ness has me beating them for the first half of the first game, but then I just get frustrated that I can't freakin kill them and fall apart mentally, and then I end up losing the set.
I'm tired of losing to people worse than me.
I can deal with them in neutral, I can get the damage in, but then I get them offstage and I'm just at a total loss. We don't have the speed to go out there and challenge them or run into the PK Thunder unless they're doing it really close to the stage, and yeah sure you can thwack them when they land on stage but they just keep on coming back again and again. And then eventually you mess up and let them back and then they get one grab than that's like 50 ****ing percent right there and then oh well there goes your lead. Or you mess up and eat the PK Thunder 2 and die.
Almost every set of mine against a Ness has me beating them for the first half of the first game, but then I just get frustrated that I can't freakin kill them and fall apart mentally, and then I end up losing the set.
I'm tired of losing to people worse than me.
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Electric Tuba
Smash Journeyman
You can try to dair or fair him out of his up b, but if you don't want to risk that then it's best to just wait onstage for him to land and punish the new-as-of-3.5 landing lag (slight, but noticeable).
Stay near the edge in case he tries to sweet spot (then edgehog, fair, or stomp), then fair him again or grab>whatever him when he lands. Repeat and try not to mess up...
That's pretty much all I can say about edgeguarding ness. It's not super easy to stop, honestly, but it can be done consistently...
Stay near the edge in case he tries to sweet spot (then edgehog, fair, or stomp), then fair him again or grab>whatever him when he lands. Repeat and try not to mess up...
That's pretty much all I can say about edgeguarding ness. It's not super easy to stop, honestly, but it can be done consistently...
Taytertot
Smash Ace
maybe try to bair ness when he lands cause its a quick move with great kill potential. generally id imagine ness should be easy to flat out kill since hes lightweight but if you feel that you dont have enough time to setup for a kill move then maybe just throwing out a jab and then trying to dair his recovery or use that time to set up for a kill onstage if you know he plans to land onstage. If he goes for the ledge just be patient and let ness screw himself over cause his attack range is crap in comparison to ganon's so you can just wait at a distance so that you could catch him with the tip of dtilt if he decides to do regular get-up/get-up attack/ledge roll or hang on the ledge too long and then if he drops from ledge to DJ onstage then hit him with a fair for a pretty early kill or use uair to cover platform options and hold the stage control.
Basically, as ganon i feel that there are going to be a lot of matches that need to be won by attrition. By that i mean that you need to be able to win the patient game against any opponent unless they have a great projectile game. With ness, you shouldn't be too worried about waiting outside his full hop PK fire range because from that distance the only thing he can hit you with is grounded PK fire, which you want him to throw out because its unsafe and easy to avoid at full range. So stay around there and wait for the ness player to try to go in, which is your chance to smack him away with ftilt, dtilt, nair, jab or uair depending on the situation (just make sure that ness has committed before throwing a move out to punish).
Another thing that i think is worth noting is that ness's platform game is actually quite good if the ness player has a good handle on ness's movement and because of that i feel that ness will be able to use platforms to his advantage more then ganon can, so maybe another good decision would be to take ness to a stage with few platforms (though i feel FD is a bad choice despite there being no platforms because it gives ness too much room to get in and get out) so maybe a stage like smashville or green hill zone would be great. I doubt warioware would be too bad for ganon but i think that battlefield might give ness too many options and should probably be avoided though i cant say for certain.
Basically, as ganon i feel that there are going to be a lot of matches that need to be won by attrition. By that i mean that you need to be able to win the patient game against any opponent unless they have a great projectile game. With ness, you shouldn't be too worried about waiting outside his full hop PK fire range because from that distance the only thing he can hit you with is grounded PK fire, which you want him to throw out because its unsafe and easy to avoid at full range. So stay around there and wait for the ness player to try to go in, which is your chance to smack him away with ftilt, dtilt, nair, jab or uair depending on the situation (just make sure that ness has committed before throwing a move out to punish).
Another thing that i think is worth noting is that ness's platform game is actually quite good if the ness player has a good handle on ness's movement and because of that i feel that ness will be able to use platforms to his advantage more then ganon can, so maybe another good decision would be to take ness to a stage with few platforms (though i feel FD is a bad choice despite there being no platforms because it gives ness too much room to get in and get out) so maybe a stage like smashville or green hill zone would be great. I doubt warioware would be too bad for ganon but i think that battlefield might give ness too many options and should probably be avoided though i cant say for certain.
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Taytertot
Smash Ace
On a similar note, how should ganon handle the samus MU? Let me know if this has already been answered and where to find it if thats the case, but i feel that samus has all the tools to completely shut ganon down without having to ever approach, which forces ganon into one of his weak points which would be his approach and offensive mixup game.
JosephGee
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2013
- Messages
- 20
- 3DS FC
- 2878-9589-9887
One of my practice partners plays Ness, always gets destroyed by sour spot up air (not while they are charging, when they are above the stage), if I make a mistake we'll trade but its not bad. If he's going on stage I can hit him with one of my other aerials. Honestly I don't worry about him getting the ledge too much, his slow DJ makes him have a hard time getting back on stage.
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SuperCoffeeBros
The Better, Faster, Cheaper Custom Controller
Donkey feels like a tough MU for Dorf. What options do you use in the neutral?
Grabs are tough to get on donkey as well as he can out space dorfs nair with bairs.
I am switching from wolf to Ganon, he is twice as fun as well as good (:
Grabs are tough to get on donkey as well as he can out space dorfs nair with bairs.
I am switching from wolf to Ganon, he is twice as fun as well as good (:
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Taytertot
Smash Ace
As with all MUs with ganon ftilt, dtilt and jab are your friends. They do a great job of keeping others out, which despite DK's range you should be able to do with him as well, though be aware of moments where he's looking to ftilt you so you can wavedash back. Something to note about DK is that he doesnt have very good options to cover below him and so uair strings should be easy to get on him just make sure he doesnt have enough time to throw out a dair. Offstage, DK is incredibly easy to deal with. ganons dair will get you a kill if you get him offstage due to DK's horrible vertical recovery. Id say that its probably safer to not try to grab much because of its short range.
Unfortunately i cant find junebug's match vs a DK player that he destroyed, but its definitely a winnable MU. I agree that its a bit rough and ganon has to play very safe because of DK's cargo throw combos.
SuperCoffeeBros
The Better, Faster, Cheaper Custom Controller
If I can get the grab, chain grabs work well. Also throws > aeirals work well. I think DK's strongest area v ganon is his edgegaurding ability. DK can also keep ganon in the air pretty well as well. Dair edgegaurding doesn't always seem like a good idea, I agree it can be effective as far as vertical recovery, but it only takes a tap from Kong's UpB. Ganon can't always get high enough as well. DK has faster tilts as well (besides Ganons jab), which can out space dorf well. I usually try to space nairs/fairs until I can get DK in the air.
Thank you for your input, does Junebug still play Ganon very much? I missed most of Shots Fired and haven't seen him at Xanadu in a while.
An aerial Flame Choke that lands you onstage but your opponent offstage pretty much outright kills Donkey Kong. Most players will be caught by surprise and just panic upB, which doesn't gain enough distance to get them back to the ledge. Smarter players will jump first, but they still need to upB right below the ledge and that's the freest dair in the world.
SuperCoffeeBros
The Better, Faster, Cheaper Custom Controller
Flame choke is too good from the air. It is a pretty slow move and can be read and punished very easy.
Er...okay? I'm not saying to just throw it out willy nilly. We all know Flame Choke is a move that requires good timing and thought to be used correctly, but it's rewards are so good.
In this case, the reward is a free stock off of just one read, even though it's situational it's definitely worth knowing imo.
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SuperCoffeeBros
The Better, Faster, Cheaper Custom Controller
I definitely agree with you, I was just pointing out my own faults with the use of flame choke. I try for style points, of which I have very few, and flame choke tends to get thrown in the mix all too often. (:
Also what is a good use for the float...for recovery I know, but it doesn't seem to cancel very fast and can't really be used like ness' down b. What are the options you use?
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Drunkinsnail
Smash Rookie
Sh bair > B reversed float > Nair > arty mixup. The pressure is real. lol. It also does a decent job of baiting, ya know, if you're into that sort of thing. =P
Taytertot
Smash Ace
Id say baiting and being able to wait stuff out in the air a bit longer. imo the best way to use it is as a mix up occasionally. If your opponent doesnt see you use float much and then you throw it out, it is going to mess up their timing in regards to reads, punishes, and approaches as well as get you extra tech chases, but if you use it all the time they will get used to that being apart of your style and learn to prepare for that timing. That being said there are edgeguarding opportunities that are more difficult to avoid for the opponent if you use float just to give yourself that extra air time in case they try for a late or early upB or other recovery option and the float can allow you to cover all those options in certain MUs.
I havent seen a whole lot of junebug lately but im sure he still plays ganon i did find somewhat recent matches of his https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=PM+junebug+3.5
I've played the DK matchup more than anything. A good DK won't let you get easy grabs obviously, but you're Ganon so get use to it.
Try to get grabs but don't force them, because DK will punish you hard with his own. However, bc DKs hurt box is so big and Ganons grab is weird, you can grab DK when he's behind you, so you'll want to take advantage of that. If you're getting up close and personal with him, jab is your friend for creating space and making sure he doesn't do his two jabs -> whatever he wants. Use fade-away Fairs, Nairs and Uairs for approaches because their fast, as well as fending him off if he's approaching with aerials. Flame Choke is good in this match-up because DK is such a large target and you can be considerably above him. Also, his arms stretch for some moves so you can grab them in flame choke.
Offstage, the best thing you can do is get that early tipman (weak hit of uair). When he tries to recover again, either do another, Dair or grab ledge bc he'll be lower. If he's offstage and you can't start your edgeguard, don't bother challenging his up+b. He'll hit you and gain percent, and it has minimal (or no, i'm not sure) lag on landing. DKs will go on stage for that reason and get grabs on you.
Offstage is ass. His down tilt, fair and dair (if they know timings of it and making it so the hitbox extends through the stage) are hard to get by. Try to recover onstage or above if you can, and DI into it. You can wall tech some of his attacks at ledge but you don't have a reliable way there. It's hard no matter how you stretch it, so try and mix it up and learn to wall tech.
This matchup can be fun when you're ahead, bc DK is a big target. Flame choke suicides (or ledge spikes) are glorious bc DKs hurtbox is huge. You can be half a DK head about him and still grab onto him, so take advantage of it in this matchup. It'll go through some moves too.
Anyways, that's all I got, this match-up is in DKs favor for sure, but don't let that discourage you. Just play smart, bait some moves out, and avoid his grabs at all costs. Requires discipline and smarts to know when to pull out something like a flame choke or when to sit back and bait something
Try to get grabs but don't force them, because DK will punish you hard with his own. However, bc DKs hurt box is so big and Ganons grab is weird, you can grab DK when he's behind you, so you'll want to take advantage of that. If you're getting up close and personal with him, jab is your friend for creating space and making sure he doesn't do his two jabs -> whatever he wants. Use fade-away Fairs, Nairs and Uairs for approaches because their fast, as well as fending him off if he's approaching with aerials. Flame Choke is good in this match-up because DK is such a large target and you can be considerably above him. Also, his arms stretch for some moves so you can grab them in flame choke.
Offstage, the best thing you can do is get that early tipman (weak hit of uair). When he tries to recover again, either do another, Dair or grab ledge bc he'll be lower. If he's offstage and you can't start your edgeguard, don't bother challenging his up+b. He'll hit you and gain percent, and it has minimal (or no, i'm not sure) lag on landing. DKs will go on stage for that reason and get grabs on you.
Offstage is ass. His down tilt, fair and dair (if they know timings of it and making it so the hitbox extends through the stage) are hard to get by. Try to recover onstage or above if you can, and DI into it. You can wall tech some of his attacks at ledge but you don't have a reliable way there. It's hard no matter how you stretch it, so try and mix it up and learn to wall tech.
This matchup can be fun when you're ahead, bc DK is a big target. Flame choke suicides (or ledge spikes) are glorious bc DKs hurtbox is huge. You can be half a DK head about him and still grab onto him, so take advantage of it in this matchup. It'll go through some moves too.
Anyways, that's all I got, this match-up is in DKs favor for sure, but don't let that discourage you. Just play smart, bait some moves out, and avoid his grabs at all costs. Requires discipline and smarts to know when to pull out something like a flame choke or when to sit back and bait something
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Chef Besh
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2013
- Messages
- 13
Anyone have any tips against Dedede? Was winning tournaments with good ol' Ganon til someone took up Dedede. Ganon has chain grabs on Dedede, but that only goes so far. Dedede covers so many options, and with the multiple jumps/armored up-b/disjointed hit boxes, it becomes difficult to play against him.
It's doesn't have armour.
Except for grounded upB for some weird reason.
so, man... **** wario ;x
Where did the bad man touch you
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everywhere.
though i got knocked out of tourney by a zelda then a shielda/rob player. but i swear to god, i will just fold over to just absolutely terrible warios. his air weaves throw me off hard and make me feel dumb ><
though i got knocked out of tourney by a zelda then a shielda/rob player. but i swear to god, i will just fold over to just absolutely terrible warios. his air weaves throw me off hard and make me feel dumb ><
Taytertot
Smash Ace
maybe ganon will get more buffs in the 3.6 release that was announced. im hoping that all the heavies get some love.
the only thing i would like to see changed (that i think he really can get changed without making him not feel "ganony") is to overhaul his dthrow, give his bthrow a reason to exist, and then give him a half decent grab.
all imo, as stated.
all imo, as stated.
He's good the way he is.
A slightly better vertical grab would be nice. Too many times i've missed some characters and felt cheated because I made the read, got the position but flubbed the timing by like a frame bc they were crouching or retracted their hitbox.
Anything else would be too much. Ganon is not amazing but he isn't bad. He's middle of the road as you can get.
A slightly better vertical grab would be nice. Too many times i've missed some characters and felt cheated because I made the read, got the position but flubbed the timing by like a frame bc they were crouching or retracted their hitbox.
Anything else would be too much. Ganon is not amazing but he isn't bad. He's middle of the road as you can get.
yeah. it's hard to buff him much without making him ridonk at this point. he can get you to kill percent with, like, 4 moves and then the kill is just one hard read away at that point.
it could be cool to redesign him from the ground up and give him tools slow, big characters need in this game (basically a better means to control the stage) but then he wouldn't really have the ganon feel we've all come to know and love at this point. i'm fine with him being pretty much just straight up mid tier and a god on the right stages.
it could be cool to redesign him from the ground up and give him tools slow, big characters need in this game (basically a better means to control the stage) but then he wouldn't really have the ganon feel we've all come to know and love at this point. i'm fine with him being pretty much just straight up mid tier and a god on the right stages.
Taytertot
Smash Ace
Agreed. I wouldnt want any major changes just small tweeks. Although, I personally wouldnt mind if his uptilt got completely changed because i dont really like the move, it doesnt combo from anything unless the opponent has awful DI and i just generally dont feel that it has a place in his moveset, though it is powerful, but ftilt covers in front of him better and usmash/upair cover above him better.
Taytertot
Smash Ace
hmm well i feel that we out range her in neutral despite her disjointed hitboxes of magic. She does have that projectile but its a very committal attack in that while shes deciding the amount of time and distance to charge it to, she is wide open. On top of that din's fire cant be moved back if she moves it too far until she uses sideB again to make it return. What this means is that if you can bait her to move it into an ineffective spot then she has to make it return, which may or may not help her depending on how aware the zelda player is and where you are as she chases you down with it. So try to get her to either put it so far away from her that you can jump over it without her being able to punish your jump with close range moves or try to get behind it as she's using it so that she cant make it a problem for you because it moves fairly slow on the return. Another side note about din's fire is that im almost 100% certain that there is a minimum distance that is must travel before she can release it, which i believe is somewhere around being just outside the range of her neutralB if that info helps in any way.
While her projectile does force ganon to approach, ganon still wants to play a zoning game with her. his ftilt and dtilt have much better range then any close range move she has to work with and she doesnt have quick enough dashes or aerial movement to effectively keep you from playing, in essence, like marth with your spacing. Zelda does, however, have a few good defensive options if your spacing isnt on point with her nair and neutralB. But those 2 moves of hers have considerable lag if she happens to miss which would allow you to get a very heavy hit if she throws them out too soon.
Her aerials all have the same weakness because each of them covers one area, and one area only. Fair covers just that sweetspot in front of her, bair covers the sweetspot behind her, dair below her and uair above her. But each can only keep someone out at the sweetspot making them only ideal for very specific punish situations. Nair covers her character model fairly well but its a very long move frame-wise and doesnt have the range that the other aerials have, making her have limited options to cover herself especially if your at a diagonal angle from her. On the ground shes a bit more difficult to deal with but as long as youre spacing yourself and looking to punish her when she throws out a defensive move too early you should be able to manage (also i think downB may beat out her tilts, though that may not be true for her smash attacks.)
To break it down more simplistically, Zelda wants to keep you away from her because she doesnt have very good offensive options so her gameplan will likely be to set up din's fire in such a way that you decide to approach in an unsafe manner, which allows her to punish hard with a number of different moves, but you dont need more then one good hit to effective destroy the defenses she's set up because she relies on spacing herself to her din's fire so that she can control the way in which you approach since her offense isnt great. So, it seems to me that the determining factor in this match for ganon is your ability to carefully and patiently get to a place where you can land a quick hit on her. Once you've hit her, keep it simple by covering options and being non-committal so that you can keep her from setting up her defense around din's fire again.
I hope that helps. As always i am only theorizing, as i often do, so i might be wrong about some of this (and theory doesnt always play out the same way in practice) so feel free to bring up anything i may have missed or was wrong about and i'll try to come up with a different solution.
While her projectile does force ganon to approach, ganon still wants to play a zoning game with her. his ftilt and dtilt have much better range then any close range move she has to work with and she doesnt have quick enough dashes or aerial movement to effectively keep you from playing, in essence, like marth with your spacing. Zelda does, however, have a few good defensive options if your spacing isnt on point with her nair and neutralB. But those 2 moves of hers have considerable lag if she happens to miss which would allow you to get a very heavy hit if she throws them out too soon.
Her aerials all have the same weakness because each of them covers one area, and one area only. Fair covers just that sweetspot in front of her, bair covers the sweetspot behind her, dair below her and uair above her. But each can only keep someone out at the sweetspot making them only ideal for very specific punish situations. Nair covers her character model fairly well but its a very long move frame-wise and doesnt have the range that the other aerials have, making her have limited options to cover herself especially if your at a diagonal angle from her. On the ground shes a bit more difficult to deal with but as long as youre spacing yourself and looking to punish her when she throws out a defensive move too early you should be able to manage (also i think downB may beat out her tilts, though that may not be true for her smash attacks.)
To break it down more simplistically, Zelda wants to keep you away from her because she doesnt have very good offensive options so her gameplan will likely be to set up din's fire in such a way that you decide to approach in an unsafe manner, which allows her to punish hard with a number of different moves, but you dont need more then one good hit to effective destroy the defenses she's set up because she relies on spacing herself to her din's fire so that she can control the way in which you approach since her offense isnt great. So, it seems to me that the determining factor in this match for ganon is your ability to carefully and patiently get to a place where you can land a quick hit on her. Once you've hit her, keep it simple by covering options and being non-committal so that you can keep her from setting up her defense around din's fire again.
I hope that helps. As always i am only theorizing, as i often do, so i might be wrong about some of this (and theory doesnt always play out the same way in practice) so feel free to bring up anything i may have missed or was wrong about and i'll try to come up with a different solution.
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Nekkid Yeti
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2015
- Messages
- 3
I was wondering why the Ganondorf-spacies matchup is considered so terrible, because if you manage to grab one, can't you down throw them to critical percent then finish with a down smash?
Taytertot
Smash Ace
Im unsure if you can chain down throws all the way to getting a dsmash kill (though you might be able to). the issue with this MU is that...
1.) ganon's grab range is absolute crap so they can stay out of range of your grabs when they try to throw on pressure
2.) ganon doesnt have any options that are particularly good at defending his hurtboxes against heavy, consistent pressure
3.) If ganon allows said spacie to have a few frames or so of being able to act between grabs then they have a possibility to shine him, which immediately shifts the momentum back into their favor.
4.) most of ganon's moves are laggy and gives characters as quick as the spacies plenty of time to punish if ganon whiffs
There may be more factors that makes it hard for ganon but these are the ones im aware of. This isnt to say that ganon cant win but im fairly certain that it is at least a bit in the spacies' favor.
if it's a non platformed stage you can uthrow most of them for a good while, but getting that grab is the hard part. ganon's grab is TERRIBLE (his throws are really amazing, at least d/fthrow, but the grab is crap), and his neutral is only so so. spacies excel at the neutral, and falco especially makes ganon cry the least manly tears you've ever seen. if it's a platform stage, you're basically going to have to get a correct hard read off a tech to start stuff from your throw, and oftentimes you'll need several correct reads in a row to do a touch of death combo on one, due to fall speed.
so, yes, if you can touch a spacey, you can get a touch of death out of the hit, but it can require a hard read to get that first touch, then several more followups to finish the job off. whereas ganon is a perfect weight/fallspeed combo for many characters (spacies included) to do long combos on, especially with his size, and they have much easier times actually getting in and starting those combos.
Fox can be up-throwed at like 20% to 50%, then from 60% to 100% you can down throw. Then you can end with a read and a downsmash or forward smash.
Though the whole "grab" thing is a risky option in this matchup against a worthy Fox.
Its a hard matchup - but what isn't a hard matchup for Ganon, right? The sooner you stop caring about matchups as a Ganon is the sooner you'll do better I feel
That doesn't mean play dumb and not do matchups right just don't go in saying that you are likely to lose.
I still struggle with the Ike matchup. I mean it's just really hard for Ganondorf to get it, it really requires patience to stay back and pick up on a opening because Ike attacks with windmills for a sword
Though the whole "grab" thing is a risky option in this matchup against a worthy Fox.
Its a hard matchup - but what isn't a hard matchup for Ganon, right? The sooner you stop caring about matchups as a Ganon is the sooner you'll do better I feel
That doesn't mean play dumb and not do matchups right just don't go in saying that you are likely to lose.I still struggle with the Ike matchup. I mean it's just really hard for Ganondorf to get it, it really requires patience to stay back and pick up on a opening because Ike attacks with windmills for a sword
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
matchups ain't even hella hard for Ganon in 3.5. Mo****a is solid as **** now
GreyFox
Smash Rookie
How do you all feel about the MU with Ike and do you have any general tips with it? Ledge guarding / Neutral Game and any other information that is necessary.
That matchup is hella rough since he hits as hard as us yet has way more mobility and range. You have to respect his reach like the other swordies, but do note that all his moves are much bigger commitments than other sword characters, so punishing whiffed attacks is much more feasible. When he's in the air though you actually don't have to respect him that much, since nair is pretty much the only aerial he'll be using in neutral, everything else is for punishing. Since his nair starts from above him you can anti-air him with well timed uairs or up angled ftilt. You can't do this on reaction to the nair though, so you'll have to be making a read here and if the Ike catches on then he can start mixing it up with say tomahawk grab or double jump dair, so of course you'll have to mix up your responses as well (double jump/wavedash back > whiff punish). You can also crouch cancel the strong hit of the nair until around 55% or so.
Quick Draw is something they'll of course be using a ton, quoting this from another thread on it.
I just realized though that since he'll be jump cancelling the grab it'll be frame 8 cause you gotta spend at least one frame in jumpsquat, derp.
As for edgeguarding, uhhh........good luck lmao. I don't have much of a clue of how to deal with his upB, it's hella hard. He's vulnerable when jumping up to the sword, but that's super quick so it's very difficult to be in a position to catch him there. I suppose you could try yolo run off bair? Probably a bad idea. Note that it's a while before he can grab ledge though, he has to wait till he stops spinning around the apex of Aether before he can, so maybe you hit him there, but you'll probably just get hit first. Invincible aerials from the ledge is likely the only good option here.
The Quick Draw is much easier to edgeguard against if he's just straight trying to get back from it, just go out and hit him. If you're a ways off from the ledge then he'll just die if he uses the Quick Draw attack, so he's pretty much boned. But they generally won't go for this since it's a lot more vulnerable. Sometimes you can intercept the walljump attempt if they don't go too low.
Lastly I'd suggest watching Kage vs Ally. Kage loses, but he still puts up a good fight and I mean it's Kage, it's worth watching lol. They've played at McSmashter and Lan ETS.
Hope this helps. It's tough, but definitely doable.
GreyFox
Smash Rookie
I really appreciate your write up and I agree with edge guarding being a major issue in this MU. There really isnt any reliable option that can be used in a real situation. Up-Tilt can be timed to kill if they Aether but in all situations and Up-Air Tipman is rough and any drop down can just be reacted to by Ike.
I have seen multiple games between Kage and Ally, in his sets he seriously struggles with Ledge guarding and getting ledge guarded. Kage does bring some different ideas to the Ganon meta game I have picked up on though.
No problem. I just recalled somebody telling me the other day that I should float out behind him and then fair him there. I don't know how effective that'd be, good players will walltech. Might even just hit the back on stage. Dair maybe? So slow though...
>100% roll is probably slow enough to work, just take enough damage and then you can edgeguard him
Taytertot
Smash Ace
Another thing to point out about quickdraw is that there is no longer an auto-attack for it so if you know that theyre going to use the quickdraw attack then they actually have to time their b press so that they hit you, which means that its much more doubtful that theyre going to have the optimal spacing. Because of that, there is a better chance of punishing that approach with something like a a well timed dtilt or ftilt.
As far as edgeguarding goes i think the best thing to do is space just outside of the hitbox of upB (assuming that's how the ike is getting back) and just wait for ike to grab the ledge because while its difficult to keep the ledge away from ike it is quite a bit easier to keep him from getting back on stage from there since his best options are either laggy or use ledge hop sideB which shouldnt be terribly difficult to punish if youre somewhat close to ike to begin with. Or i suppose you could go for the yolo down taunt in hopes to super armor through ike's upB and kill him instantly (might not be an incredibly bad idea if you can time it).
Oh yeah, Magus dropped some knowledge in regards to techchasing Squirtle with Flame Choke
rip
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
I never understood how people thought that a move with 16 (or maybe more, I can't remember) frames of start up could be used to tech chase on reaction lol. Isn't tech in place like 20 or so frames to begin with and human reaction time is like 10-12 frames?
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