Floating to the Top v3.6: The Ganondorf Match Up Thread

[Yanoss1313]

aerial or grounded? (or both, i suppose...) how are they affecting you? as in, are you in neutral and trying to position and shiek is just throwing out un/partially charged needles from the ground to mess with you? or is it as an edgeguarding tool and it's just stuffing up your options?

Mostly in terms of recovery, even when i'm trying to sweetspot the ledge she still seems to be able to smack me on the head with them. But yeah, it never occurred to me to try to recover high since that usually spells death in most matchups >.>

In terms of neutral, I think my (wrongly) perceived lack of options was getting me flustered and I started spamming shff Nairs. >.<

sorry if i threw things out that you knew, i just tried to cover all the basics ;x

It's all good, never hurts to be thorough. =D

 

[CORY]

well, that's what shiek does, she limits options (either mentally or actually) and then starts to work her magic through there : p

and shiek is going to be able to edgeguard you pretty solidly, regardless. she just has the proper tools to do so. if you get offstage vs shiek, you're going to have to play exceptionally well to get back on. she can grab the ledge, force you to upb, then throw a bair in your way, sit on stage and pester with needles, go deep and fair/bair/nair, etc... it's rough, man, i totally feel your pain ;x

 

[M0p]

I really feel like aerial flame choke mixups in the neutral are criminally underrated, and make a lot of matchups more bearable. Obviously if you spam it they'll start expecting it, but it's just fun to condition people to start shielding from far away by using DACUS and grounded wizkick a lot, and then command grabbing their shield for free.

Flame choke mixups have REALLY helped me with matchups I hated before, mainly the ike matchup.

 

[GlowingOrangeOoze]

tbh flame choke and wizkick in neutral seem like gimmicks to me that would stop working if more people were used to the MU. They can both be beaten by good dash dancing. I'm not trying to cry "fraud" here, I know that plenty of respected players use those moves abundantly, but I don't expect those moves to continue working for people if a good PM Ganon player starts turning heads. Am I the only one who feels this way?

 

[Taytertot]

not at all they are easily punished. Good moves and very useful but very easily punished. they both get beaten by jumping over them and attacking down on ganon.

 

[Yanoss1313]

not at all they are easily punished. Good moves and very useful but very easily punished. they both get beaten by jumping over them and attacking down on ganon.

My thoughts exactly, I'd be conditioned to jump and punish, not to block.

 

[teluoborg]

tbh flame choke and wizkick in neutral seem like gimmicks to me that would stop working if more people were used to the MU. They can both be beaten by good dash dancing. I'm not trying to cry "fraud" here, I know that plenty of respected players use those moves abundantly, but I don't expect those moves to continue working for people if a good PM Ganon player starts turning heads. Am I the only one who feels this way?

No you're not.
Flame Choke and Wizkick are both very risky that's true, but they are also very VERY powerful.
So yeah, when people know the matchup you can't use them freely in the neutral but they still remain very powerful mixup options.
And even if you don't use them, the fact that people know you have them is a powerful neutral tool in itself.


Especially Flame Choke, I swear I could talk of this move all day.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Flame choke and wizkick are for reads, not neutral

 

[CORY]

yeah, wizkick should only be used to punish someone when it's going to either kill or set you up for an edgeguard situation.

flamechoke is a conditioning tool (or a tool to use out of conditioning someone). make them think the safest thing to do is the shield, then you can start mixing in flame chokes (not max range, it can be reacted to), both grounded and aerial. then, you can start using it to extend combos or tack on damage during tech chases (while setting up more tech chases).

 

[GlowingOrangeOoze]

okay, glad to hear that. Watching good players get away with those moves often made me feel like I was in crazytown. I guess they're just good at conditioning and/or realizing their opponent isn't used to the moves. I should probably start thinking about conditioning more outside of techchases and juggles.

 

[Taytertot]

okay, glad to hear that. Watching good players get away with those moves often made me feel like I was in crazytown. I guess they're just good at conditioning and/or realizing their opponent isn't used to the moves. I should probably start thinking about conditioning more outside of techchases and juggles.

If you want to learn more about conditioning and mindgames in general this page is incredibly helpful. Its the footsies handbook and although it refers to ideas in terms of street fighter most of it crosses over to smash bros. There are many chapters on that page and Id recommend going through all of them and watching the links when theyre given as it will help to visualize what the author is talking about even if it is SF instead of Smash.

http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

 

[GlowingOrangeOoze]

Hey, thanks, I'll definitely read all this. I've been reading so much stuff like this lately my eyes are gonna sink in but my brain feels like it's begging for it.

 

[M0p]

Yeah, one thing a lot of you are/were forgetting when you criticized wizkick and flame choke as neutral options is conditioning. As teluoborg said, just the threat of these moves is power in the neutral, and if it's spaced properly they won't have time to react. It's more of a mixup than a go-to, of course, as you do have a lot of time to react from a reset to neutral.

That being said, if Ganon's conditioning you to jump a lot in the neutral, he holds a lot of power over you. He's one of the best characters in terms of controlling the space above/in front of him, while also being able to deal with shields and stuffing options well. The mixture of his powerful aerials and flame choke make for a deadly neutral game and some serious presence, and it's more the utility you get from this presence that makes it so damn powerful. If you get in someone's head, flamechoke is seriously disgusting in terms of the potential to take momentum in a game. Wizkick is a lot more situational but still quite useful, and should be kept in mind as an option more in terms of punishing flubs and catching them off guard rather than spamming it. Again, the threat of something like wizkick makes the neutral harder for your opponent.

 

[V]

How would you rank the match up difficulty between Marth, Fox, and Pit?

 

[M0p]

How would you rank the match up difficulty between Marth, Fox, and Pit?

I'd say Ganon vs. Marth is a skill matchup, mainly because it's about spacing each other out, and they can both reliably take each other's stocks.

Ganon vs. Fox is a bit more volatile and read based for Ganon, but it's still close to even or maybe slightly favoring Fox. Ganon can edgeguard Fox for days and kill him early, but Fox can pressure Ganon hardcore and shinespike him with relative ease.

Ganon vs. Pit is fairly close, though I might actually give this one to Ganon. Ganon straight up outranges Pit in every respect aside from his arrows, and can kill him extremely early.

 

[Stalled]

Can confirm that ganon vs marth is 50-50.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Can confirm that ganon vs marth is 50-50.

On what grounds?

I don't doubt you, exactly, but could you expand on that? Any new strategies open up in the match up?

I would assume recovery buffs go a long way against Marth, but I don't know if it's 50-50 as a result. I haven't had a chance to play any good Marths in 3.5 yet.

 

[Stalled]

I haven't played the matchup enough in 3.5 to do a big write up but Marth and Ganon can cover most of each others options options in nuetral. Both are super easy to edgeguard. Its very similar to how it was in 3.02. The buffs ganon got help but not really to any significant degree imo, barring the fast short hop.

 

[TheFatHen]

I'm struggling with Ganon's match-ups does anyone know what his overall good and bad match-ups are.

Specifically I am not sure on the falcon match-up, could anyone give advice much appreciated.

 

[CORY]

falcon feels like it's even or close to it, but very momentum based. if you have control of the match, you're going to have a great time, for the most part! but once falcon starts to take over, everything he gets to do is stuff ganon REALLY doesn't like ;x

i think it was sprawlers who said his preferred method for beating falcon was to dd camp at the edge of falcon's shffl nair range and just shff his own nair on reaction to beat falcon out.

 

[TheFatHen]

falcon feels like it's even or close to it, but very momentum based. if you have control of the match, you're going to have a great time, for the most part! but once falcon starts to take over, everything he gets to do is stuff ganon REALLY doesn't like ;x

i think it was sprawlers who said his preferred method for beating falcon was to dd camp at the edge of falcon's shffl nair range and just shff his own nair on reaction to beat falcon out.

Thanks for the advice. Last week I went to my first tournament and had a bit of trouble playing against Ness do you have any advice playing against him? My main problem was that I was getting juggled.

 

[CORY]

don't have much on him, honestly. our local ness main is the best ness in the nation, so he kinda steamrolls me, anyway. and i'm not that familiar with 3.5 ness and the changes that he's had : /

 

[Electric Tuba]

Ness' combos are really good, we can shield PK fire now, watch out for his dair off stage, his fair onstage is dangerous also. Try and get him to whiff PK fire or use fair when he's not close to the ground/DJCing and punish that. If you can jump out and intercept PK thunder, do it. Otherwise, fair/dair him out of it as he comes back.

 

[M0p]

Ganon outranges Ness super hard, take advantage of that.

As for Ganon's bad matchups, TheFatHen:

Falco and Fox for obvious reasons, Ganon does not deal well with projectile spam and zoning from Falco, nor does he deal well with Fox's shield pressure/offstage gimping game, considering Ganon's awful recovery. These matchups are playable, but favor the spacies. I'm inclined to think the Ganon Wolf matchup is closer to even, because Ganon can CC Wolf shine and Wolf's projectiles aren't as effective as Falco's or Fox's IMO.

Ganon also struggles with Mario a bit, since Mario can cape his recovery, combo him to all hell, and zone him with fireballs. That said, 3.5 makes it a bit more bearable for Ganon players.

Diddy used to demolish Ganon, now it's a bit easier but still in Diddy's favor. Bananas are still bananas and Diddy still has his gimp game, he just has to work for it a bit more. Definitely doable for Ganon, however.

Sheik absolutely messes Ganon up. 0 to deaths and a ridiculous gimp game all over the place, not to mention (not 100% on this) Sheik can duck under Ganon's grab. This is one matchup I refuse to pick Ganon into unless I'm significantly better than my opponent.

Link/Toon Link both zone Ganon fairly hard, and can combo the mess out of him. Tink is a bit easier because Ganon's aerials outrange Tink's, but the projectile spam is real, and that's all Tink needs to get in. Link straight up dominates Ganon, however if Ganon manages to get in, he can most certainly mess up Link's day. It's getting in that's a problem, and a very good Link simply won't let that happen easily.

Mewtwo is still fairly rough, but playable.

Lucario could be bad, but I'd have to see where the more experienced Lucario players take the character. Lucario throws down some ridiculous pressure, on top of a reliable projectile game and some crazy combos. I think this is playable for Ganon, but most likely pretty rough.

Ivysaur can just play a spacing war with Ganon, except she has a healing ability and a projectile. Ganon can reflect this pretty reliably though, so I'd say this isn't too bad, like 55-45.

Charizard, in a lot of ways, is like Ganon with slightly less potent killing power and a marginally more effective recovery and grab game, in my opinion. 55-45 as well.

Samus is still Samus, and Ganon gets absolutely wrecked by projectiles. However, this is another case of Ganon's aerials doing more work than Samus', and with Samus' recovery being nerfed this patch, she is now easier to gimp. I'd have to play it out a bit more, but it could be approaching even.

I think Dedede has a good matchup vs Ganon as well, outranging him in many ways, along with a half decent projectile and a more effective recovery. Obviously still playable for both parties.

Ike may be looking scarier for Ganon this patch, though I'll have to look into it.

Game and Watch is looking to be top tier this patch in general, and the ability to keep Ganon out of his space until he finds an opening to 0-death him is extremely potent. Ganon can kill Gdubs extremely early, though, so play this matchup carefully on both sides.

I'd say that's about it in terms of blatantly bad matchups. Everything else is even or favors him. Regardless of how bad it is I'd say try to adapt, because a lot of the time you're losing to the player, not the character. Make sure it's pretty much undoable before you consider picking up a secondary.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

things and stuff

Just to add some insight, I'm fairly certain that Ganondorf beats Charizard in 3.5. If you're ready to deal with a ground approach, literally-ish everything else that Charizard can do is punishable on shield with an up-B OoS at least. He's fairly easy to edge guard, the combos on 'Zard are brutal, and he's hard not to hit. It might even be 60-40, though it's more likely somewhere between that and even.

The Samus match up is either even, or very slightly in either character's favor as well, I'm fairly certain. She's braindead easy to edge guard now, a lot of her more problematic moves were toned down and are easier to deal with, and she doesn't wall out nearly as hard with the nerfed zair. Just gotta learn to powershield and you're good to go.

Everything else sounds spot on though.

 

[M0p]

f you're ready to deal with a ground approach, literally-ish everything else that Charizard can do is punishable on shield with an up-B OoS at least.

How did I not think of this? This actually helps a lot with some walls I've hit.

 

[TheFatHen]

I have been playing Ganon before 3.5 but I'm still not sure with his new cape and float how to use them properly if anyone could give any tips it would be much appreciated.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I have been playing Ganon before 3.5 but I'm still not sure with his new cape and float how to use them properly if anyone could give any tips it would be much appreciated.

It can be used for a lot of things, but it's not mindless or spammable

Timing mixups
http://youtu.be/Tg78cuQBBuY?t=1m37s
http://youtu.be/Tg78cuQBBuY?t=2m41s
http://youtu.be/E9Hz2W5T3wk?t=4m15s

Edgeguards
http://youtu.be/Tg78cuQBBuY?t=3m16s
http://youtu.be/Tg78cuQBBuY?t=5m59s

Recovery mixups
http://youtu.be/Tg78cuQBBuY?t=5m24s

and lots of other ****. Just mess around with it more

 

[Electric Tuba]

So at a tournament yesterday I lost almost exclusively to Sheik and Fox when I was playing Ganon. Anybody have tips for those matchups?

 

[CORY]

what were you losing to? any ideas?

fox is overall just a rough match. he gets to make you approach, and when he decides he wants to approach himself, he has the best tools for mixing it up in the game (if not the best, some of them). it's really hard, you basically just have to make every hit you do count, especially if the fox decides he wants to try and lame you out.

shiek is similar, but rather than having all the options to mix you up with, she likes to just limit your options and then react to you. fortunately, her recovery is simple to deal with (mostly), but setting her up for it is tricky.

but, yeah, it's hard to give more useful overall advice without knowing what you think you lost to : /

 

[Electric Tuba]

With Fox, I didn't really know how to get out of pressure, it seemed like once I put up my shield and he started putting on pressure and shine I couldn't get out.
I also got grabbed more than I thought I should have, but maybe I was just hoping for an approach too much. Nothing got recorded, and I can't remember in great detail

Sheik could have just been that I couldn't escape combos well and just got throw off-stage and edgeguarded, but I've got no idea how to edgeguard her either.

Hopefully I can get some matches recorded some time in the future, least I'll have something to review then.

 

[CORY]

hrmmmm... shield pressure is of course one of ganon's big weaknesses. look for patterns on what the fox tries on you. aerial-shine is going to be safe, you can't grab it, but you might be able to roll from it (not 100% sure on this at all...). shine-aerial shouldn't be 100% safe, but you can start to shield di out of multiple aerial-shine-aerial-etc... setups to gain space and make it so you can attempt a grab or safely roll/dodge away.

otherwise, get better at knowing the spacing to nair/uair (or just otherwise aerials) stuff his approaches. make sure to not get baited into whiffing ac nair, fox can move fast enough to dd and catch you landing (or just shffl over your legs). and get really familiar with your own spacing. you can make fair safe from fox on shield, but he's tough to pin down. just get used to feeling him out and try to squeeze real estate out of his control little by little. you really only need one hit and that can turn the stock into your favor with good reads.

if sheik gets you offstage, that just sucks to be you : ( but, you're recognizing that your getting grabbed is what's prompting the edgeguarding situation. what are you doing to get grabbed? misspacing stuff? misreading a situation? missing lcancels/autocancels?

and what do you want to know about edgeguarding shiek? is it the basic gameplan? or the twists that can be thrown at you?

 

[Electric Tuba]

Do you know by chance if we can spotdodge shine from shield presure? I don't really think it'll make a huge difference, but it might throw them off at the least.

Maybe I just need to be more careful with what I try to punish against both characters; I can't recall that well but that may have been an issue. It'd be easy, especially when I'm having trouble and am kind of desperate for a hit.. gotta stay cool.

All I know is to grab the edge, then punish her when she lands on stage. I guess with a grab into other stuff?

 

[CORY]

i couldn't tell you for sure. spotdodges go invuln on frame 3, iirc. i don't think fox has any aerials that allow him to be that positive on shield (i.e. a shine able to hit you on frame 2) as that would be super crazy. my fox knowledge is fairly limited, so i'm functioning off of limited insight from being beaten up by drdrew and watching matches : /

yeah, that's the basic gist of punishing shiek's recovery. she can throw out aerials to try and clear some space, but mainly she has to depend on mixing up her upb while you edgehog. i feel like ganon does a well enough job of going deep against shiek and covering options with u/fair to really hassle her recovery. just be aware that her upb has invuln right around where she jumps and flips (can't find frame data for this and i can't check on my setup, about to have to leave). so, don't try to challenge the upb, really. go out and scare the second jump out with something, then start up the edgehog scenario.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Maybe I'll try spotdodge>jab whenever I expect a shine... could work.

I'll keep all that in mind. I think many of my problems stem from doing too much risky stuff, but actually knowing what I should try for will help. Thanks for the tips!

 

[Stalled]

i feel like doubleshine definitely beats spotdodge>jab, could be wrong though

 

[Electric Tuba]

i feel like doubleshine definitely beats spotdodge>jab, could be wrong though

It definitely does, since Spotdodge takes about 20 frames with only 2-15 invincible (right?), so shine shine would hit. However, I'm counting on the fox going for aerial>shine>aerial again, something that takes long enough for our three frame jab to come out.

 

[Stalled]

In that same vain, what would be a good way to respond to doubleshine aerial pressure? Just wait to spotdodge or no?

 

[M0p]

If a Fox is aerial-shining you, you ****ed up. Plain and simple. Try to buffer a roll out and reset it to neutral, you simply can't let yourself get caught in shield against spacies or you lose.

I actually think the Sheik MU is marginally worse than the Fox MU. Sheik has so many tools to deal with Ganon, a trillion free setups on him, and a million options to edgeguard him hard. My advice is don't get grabbed, and be SUPER careful in how you space. A good Sheik can kill you nearly every time she gets a grab.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I guess if you know they're going to shine more than once, either roll out (buffered?) or hold down that shield button a bit longer. Roll seems like it'd be the most generally useful option, but I'm pretty sure if the fox has decent reactions he can just run after you and grab or whatever else. Wavedash out of shield should probably be considered too, into jab or maybe f tilt? I need to get some games in and try stuff.