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Floating to the Top v3.6: The Ganondorf Match Up Thread

Hungry Headcrab

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Floating to the Top: The Ganondorf Match Up Thread


Alright everyone, you know the drill. Let's talk shop.

We've got it real good in 3.5, but Ganondorf is still Ganondorf and knowledge is power. Ask questions, share what you know, and let's conquer the competition, shall we?

Who do we want to talk about first?

EDIT: v3.6 is out, discussion starts here: http://smashboards.com/threads/floa...f-match-up-thread.378378/page-8#post-19542800
 
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Yanoss1313

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Hmm, here's something, I've found Down taunt to be a funny (and surprisingly reliable) edge-guard against Ike.

With our slightly increased mobility and options and his slightly reduced quick-draw options, i feet that the match-up has changed in our favor.
 

Hungry Headcrab

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Hmm, here's something, I've found Down taunt to be a funny (and surprisingly reliable) edge-guard against Ike.

With our slightly increased mobility and options and his slightly reduced quick-draw options, i feet that the match-up has changed in our favor.
It's certainly better, that's for sure. We can now safely make an attempt to hit him off-stage, and now even if he spaces his QD attack perfectly and we get hit, he goes into special fall and likely dies (not that they'll be opting for that option much in 3.5, I would assume).

Either way, that will go a long way toward winning that match up.

Regardless, a smart Ike should be able to mix-up his recovery enough to avoid us, and the amount of pressure he can put on a big, slow character like Ganondorf is no joke. Nair buffs and less jump-squat certainly help us out here quite a bit though. I'm interested to see just how far auto-cancel nairs will take us in this match up now, because I found it to be a somewhat lackluster tool in the Ike match up in 3.02 due to his massive range.
 
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CORY

wut
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overall, i feel like ganon's bad matchups aren't that much better (falco, namely), but he doesn't have nearly as many "autolosses" from character select, thanks to his new tools from float (and overall engine changes).

can't get specific yet, since i haven't played too much, but i think falco is improved somewhat (floating over lasers helps to open your approach/anticamp options). mewtwo isn't good at EVERYTHING but he still has annoyingly good rolls, combined with burst mobility (that doubles as a combo break option if you don't get a really good read), his range+power combo (which is toned down, but the range is annoying to deal with), and a hard for dorf to edgeguard recovery. and ivysaur is apparently powered down: her bair doesn't stop us from doing basically anything now (better angles if you're hit, less power?) and you can legitimately edgeguard the tether now, whereas before you were putting yourself into a really high risk situation to do so.
 

Yanoss1313

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To be honest, in the falco matchup, I still have far better luck power-shielding the lasers than i do trying to use B to reflect them.
 

Spralwers

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Yeah DD+powershield is the goto neutral option vs a laser happy falco. The DD keeps you mobile and easily able to screw up Falco's spacing, the powershield allows you to act immediately with the added threat of reflect. Ganon's jumpsquat is quicker now so any action stemming from jump out of powershield will be even faster. Nair is faster too, so it's quite possible that within a good range of spacing, PS -> insta nair will shut down approaches from SHL, and it can be hard for Falco to punish if the nair whiffs.

Falco MU is definitely better now. However I've never had any exact thoughts on who wins/loses it mainly because my personal experience with it has been so weird. I've played lots of different Falcos in different tournaments and I've always won. Only one Falco has beaten me and that's our resident Mattdotzeb, but the last time we played, which was months ago, it was a money match and very close. Unfortunately there are almost no top level Falco players that actively play PM so it's hard for me to use real experience to judge the MU. I do feel like the better player will win a set though.
 

Yanoss1313

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Yeah DD+powershield is the goto neutral option vs a laser happy falco. The DD keeps you mobile and easily able to screw up Falco's spacing, the powershield allows you to act immediately with the added threat of reflect. Ganon's jumpsquat is quicker now so any action stemming from jump out of powershield will be even faster. Nair is faster too, so it's quite possible that within a good range of spacing, PS -> insta nair will shut down approaches from SHL, and it can be hard for Falco to punish if the nair whiffs.

Falco MU is definitely better now. However I've never had any exact thoughts on who wins/loses it mainly because my personal experience with it has been so weird. I've played lots of different Falcos in different tournaments and I've always won. Only one Falco has beaten me and that's our resident Mattdotzeb, but the last time we played, which was months ago, it was a money match and very close. Unfortunately there are almost no top level Falco players that actively play PM so it's hard for me to use real experience to judge the MU. I do feel like the better player will win a set though.
The only high level player i've seen pick up Falco in pm is M2k... and well... that doesn't count since he plays like everyone.
 

teluoborg

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Don't forget : crouch canceling is always an option, especially against low/no KBG moves like Falco's laser.
 

Vidiot825

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Metaknight MU is funny. Ganon can literally chain grab him at 0 percent until a death hit comes into play. Revenge for brawl shenanigans and tier list direct from Ganondorf!
 

BlueGreenBrown

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I'm having a lot of trouble playing against a certain friend of mine. It's more his playstyle than anything, he plays very campy with Ivysaur, Snake, etc. and is VERY good at spot dodging. Like a savant almost. But basically i can't camp him back with Dorf so I have to try and approach but either get shield grabbed, or take 30% trying to close in with short hop nairs. Any idea's how to approach a very good campy player?
 

Hungry Headcrab

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Yeah, the reflector doesn't really help against spammable projectiles like Mario fireballs and Falco lasers.

The best use I've found for it is just as a desperate reflect during recovery (where a projectile can just kill us) or when going out to edge guard. Power shield is still king.

Edit: Mixing up your approach in the air is nice and all, but so far in my experience, the reflector doesn't really help that be a legitimately viable strategy. For example, playing against Samus, I can reflect one missile as I approach with float, but by the time I'm even beginning the slap, there's a homing missile coming for my head and a Samus coming down with a nair off a platform. Approaching on the ground, regardless of successfully power shielding or not, is generally safer against an opponent who knows how to play around a reflector as laggy as ours.
 
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Rubba Prime

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Anyone else abusing float to edge guard? SH off stage, Reversal Float, U-air, double jump to recover or Up-B to stage spike if the U-air misses? Works on cast members with generic recoveries (where Up-B is just a 3rd jump: Mario, Dorf Mirror, Marth ect).

U-Air was already a great edge guarding tool, but float makes it easier to time and puts HUGE pressure on your opponent to not mess with you as they recover.
 

Yanoss1313

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Anyone else abusing float to edge guard? SH off stage, Reversal Float, U-air, double jump to recover or Up-B to stage spike if the U-air misses? Works on cast members with generic recoveries (where Up-B is just a 3rd jump: Mario, Dorf Mirror, Marth ect).

U-Air was already a great edge guarding tool, but float makes it easier to time and puts HUGE pressure on your opponent to not mess with you as they recover.
Welcome to the Ganondorf collective, we take all types. Please Enjoy your stay :)

Edit: Please take some complementary mints and biscuits.
 
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_Ganondorf_

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Welcome to the Ganondorf collective, we take all types. Please Enjoy your stay :)

Edit: Please take some complementary mints and biscuits.
These are the Ganondorf forums... We don't give tea and biscuits!?!?

We give a rack of lamb ribs cooked over a pit filled with our enemy's remains used for fire and a nice strong ale made in the farthest reaches of the Gerudo desert to wash it down!

Get it straight man... These aren't the Peach forums!
You don't want to make the Demon King angry now... Ya' hear?

Edit: @ Rubba Prime Rubba Prime - here you go!


 
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Spralwers

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Any idea's how to approach a very good campy player?
There are definitely lots of ideas. Pressure with a well spaced aerial, use a perfect waveland, do some empty hops, wavedash towards them a little bit and crouch so you can tank through hits and counter attack, B reverse float towards them, run to them but then fake them out with a wavebounced float, do some combination of all of this, etc. But If you want actual solutions well... if there were solutions, Ganon would probably be the best character in the game. I think due to his archetype, camping is always going to be a weakness of his, but hopefully in this patch it's not as crippling as it was before.

Reflect definitely needs to be used on a case by case basis. If I know my opponent can't try and hit me after I reflect, or I know I'll hit my opponent, I'll go for the reflect. But powershielding is still generally king because of how quick you can act out of it.

Yeah the metaknight match up is much more bearable now. A little easier to edgeguard, but the two biggest things IMO: punishes off dthrow aren't as much of a hassle to deal with, and he can't use dair to escape juggles.
 

Yanoss1313

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These are the Ganondorf forums... We don't give tea and biscuits!?!?

We give a rack of lamb ribs cooked over a pit filled with our enemy's remains used for fire and a nice strong ale made in the farthest reaches of the Gerudo desert to wash it down!

Get it straight man... These aren't the Peach forums!
You don't want to make the Demon King angry now... Ya' hear?

Edit: @ Rubba Prime Rubba Prime - here you go!


shhh... They were euphemisms, meant to lure unsuspecting prey into our Gladiator Pits!
 

Hungry Headcrab

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The more I play 3.5, the more I realize how busted nair is now. We can get it out three frames faster off the ground, and with the reduction in end lag we can actually use it outside of auto canceling it and profit like crazy. Plus, nair will kick through most projectiles if you can space it right, which was already possible in 3.02, but it's soooo much better now. It's honestly much better than trying to approach using the reflector in most situations.

Seriously, nair/jump squat buffs alone would have made so many match-ups more tolerable pre-3.5. Better wavelands and a decent recovery are just icing on our wonderful cake of destruction. I love it.
 

CORY

wut
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i know! and ac'd, it's super safe on shield, too! like, ac nair almost feels like it was the best thing about ganon pre3.5 and now it's just kinda crazy, combined with the other stuff he can do now : o
 

GlowingOrangeOoze

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I haven't been able to get out to any tournaments in a little while but I'm sure eager to. Every friendly/seriously I've played so far has been... so much easier. It's kind of cathartic. I actually think all my friends are currently experiencing growing pains of not relying on gimmicky neutral games. I agree with the general feelings here: jumpsquat and nair buffs are hype. The reflector and float aren't amazing but, hey, much stronger options than what he used to have.

Also I figure now is as good a time to ask as any: Any advice for fighting characters with really long grab ranges? like charizard, DK, DD? I feel like all the safe options are too short-ranged to threaten outside of their grab range, so you've basically gotta try and mix up your approaches to mitigate the disadvantage of needing to eventually commit super hard and unsafely (like, even more than normal for an approaching ganon). Do others feel like this is the case, or do you view these situations differently?
 

Hungry Headcrab

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I haven't been able to get out to any tournaments in a little while but I'm sure eager to. Every friendly/seriously I've played so far has been... so much easier. It's kind of cathartic. I actually think all my friends are currently experiencing growing pains of not relying on gimmicky neutral games. I agree with the general feelings here: jumpsquat and nair buffs are hype. The reflector and float aren't amazing but, hey, much stronger options than what he used to have.

Also I figure now is as good a time to ask as any: Any advice for fighting characters with really long grab ranges? like charizard, DK, DD? I feel like all the safe options are too short-ranged to threaten outside of their grab range, so you've basically gotta try and mix up your approaches to mitigate the disadvantage of needing to eventually commit super hard and unsafely (like, even more than normal for an approaching ganon). Do others feel like this is the case, or do you view these situations differently?
My general strategy is to just threaten space in neutral and play the waiting game. None of the grab oriented characters have much to discourage you from just doing auto-cancel nairs and tricky wavelands outside of range and waiting for mistakes to be made. Especially against Donkey Kong, do not approach that ape unless you have a good read or are in an advantageous position because he will mess you up crazy hard.
 

Taytertot

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Pfft, I said top level! :p

but seriously, I'd actually not seen him till just now :)
I suppose I havent seen that many games of his but Ive known him as being a smart player but fair enough maybe his not that tight at falco in PM
 

Spralwers

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Larry Lurr/DEHF plays Falco in melee, brawl, PM, and I think smash 4 as well lol. He's devoted to the bird. I think Fox would actually be his secondary.

Ganon's edgeguarding potential shot way up with the float, so we should talk about how to use float to cover options when edge guarding. Like if Dedede is recovering from below, you can just float around the ledge, and react to his up B with a dair. Edge guarding Dedede from the side is so hard tho, those waddle dees have crazy priority.
 
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GlowingOrangeOoze

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My general strategy is to just threaten space in neutral and play the waiting game. None of the grab oriented characters have much to discourage you from just doing auto-cancel nairs and tricky wavelands outside of range and waiting for mistakes to be made. Especially against Donkey Kong, do not approach that ape unless you have a good read or are in an advantageous position because he will mess you up crazy hard.
Yeah, you're right. I had underestimated his combo potential and I got splattered. Didn't help that I'm not very unacquainted with his throws which seem to be basically a mess of DI mixups. I tend to be pretty nair campy but I'm just recently getting those wavelands out of aerials to smoothly integrate into my neutral game.

Ganon's edgeguarding potential shot way up with the float, so we should talk about how to use float to cover options when edge guarding.
I am genuinely amazed by how much float has buffed Ganon's edgeguarding. I thought it was incredible before.

Also can I just say I'm in love with ganon's revamped throw options? Essentially just making dthrow scale harder forcing me to check other options combined with fthrow setting up Ganon's brutal edgeguard game if they fail to DI it has made things quite a bit more interesting and I'm no longer brainlessly dthrowing every single time. Today I did dthrow > uthrow > fthrow > edgeguard on a fox and that dude did not know what was coming and it was very satisfying.
 
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Bazkip

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So Squirtle.., yeah... I'm not a fan, glad I never played the matchup in 3.5.
I just Wiz Foot a lot and hope the Squirtle is bad and gets hit

I guess we can float over his shenanigans now?
 

CORY

wut
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does anyone have good lucas experience? i just got done playing our local lucas and it's real rough, but most of it is that i don't know what he can do to my shield and what i can do back out of it. the only thing i picked up is that if he commits to magnet, you can grab him out of it (sometimes?).

are there any cues or certain moves/movements he'll do on your shield that you can use to clue into and start picking patterns up? everything just sounds like a subwoofer blowing out to me and i can't tell what he's doing well enough to get a clue, so i end up practically blinding picking an option and hoping i got the right roulette slot.
 

Taytertot

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Im not sure about lucas Id imagine that its a very difficult match for ganon but I havent seen almost any of 3.5 lucas so I can only think of what he could do in 3.02 which would destroy our shield without much commitment. Guess I'll have to look at the lucas changelog because I know he was heavily nerfed but I have no idea what way he was nerfed.
 

Hungry Headcrab

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I've only played against a couple of Lucas players (all of it before 3.5), but there are a few things to note in the match up that I've noticed.

He doesn't have that great of a neutral game, his only real option to open you up is PK Freeze, which Wiz Kick can plow right through. You should be able to react to any other approach he attempts, fair/bair can out-space most of what he's got. Shield pressure is massive, but unlike the spacie match up, resetting to neutral actually relieves you of some pressure.

Oh yeah, and if you grab him, he dies.
 

Taytertot

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here's the lucas changelog

Tilts
-Forward Tilt priority changed to favor the flub instead of the sweetspot.
-Up Tilt now has a flub, aim to hit with his foot for the sweetspot now.
-Down Tilt changed to be more Brawl-esque, much quicker, hitting at a 45 degree angle, 4/6 (inside/outside) damage, 15 frame endlag.

Smashes
-Forward Smash now deals slash damage and has a sword trail while using Lucas' commander costume.
-Up Smash
--Up Smash and OU Up Smash strong hit reduced in damage 22 -> 21 and 32 -> 30 respectively, knockback compensated.
--Up Smash and OU Up Smash flub hit reduced in damage 18 -> 16 and 26 -> 24 respectively, knockback not compensated.
--Up Smash and OU Up Smash body hitboxes reduced in size and raised up, so he doesn't hit opponents below him.

Aerials
-Forward Air
--Sweetspot hitbox reduced in size, gfx changed to match new size and is now attached to his foot. Damage & KB slightly reduced, but does not affect shield advantage, DMG 13 -> 12.
--Flub damage reduced, and hitbox size reduced. DMG 9-10 -> 7-8; KBG compensated.
-Back Aerial
--Endlag greatly increased to add risk for off-stage usage, 39 frames -> 48 frames.
--Now has a flub on his body.
-Up Aerial
--Slightly increased damage 9 -> 10, increased knockback BKB 26-20 KBG 92 -> 100. Shield damage reduced to 0.
-Down Aerial
--Endlag increased by 3 frames.
--Hits 1 & 2 size decreased to match animation better.
--Hits 1 & 2 BKB 50 -> 35.

Grabs/Throws
-Grab boxes on all grabs better matched to the snake and behaves more like a tether grab.
-Up Throw knockback reduced, reducing its KO potency. KBG 120 -> 110.
-Down Throw knockback increased, especially obvious at higher percents. BKB 82 -> 85, KBG 47 -> 50.

Specials
-Neutral Special (Offense Up)
--Charge time doubled, but charge is cumulative now, stopping mid-charge endlag reduced 40 frames -> 30 frames. The startup and cooldown animation do not advance the charge level. 60 frames -> 120 frames.
--Neutral Special charge starts falling earlier during start-up and charge, but don't fall as fast.
-Neutral Special (OU Burst)
--Burst invulnerability removed.
--Neutral Special burst comes out a frame sooner frame 3 -> frame 2, but hitbox is reduced in size.
-Forward Special
--Hitlag reduced. 13 frames -> 8 frames
--Magnet pulling (side-b > down-b in air) momentum reduced greatly.
-Up Special (PK Thunder)
--PK Thunder 2 slightly more gradual ending with a bit more hang time before following.
--PK Thunder 2 Multi-hits rates are slower, but each hit dealing slightly more damage. Overall damage tops out ~30 DMG.
--Up Special PK Thunder 2 now always go into 20-frame landing lag instead of variable time dependent on height.
--Up Special can no longer reverse ledge grab after falling from a missed PK Thunder 1
-Down Special (PSI Magnet)
--Vertical stall quickly reduces following the first, and the first use is slightly reduced compared to 3.02
--Down Special multi-hit and launching hitlag and SDI normalized, -2 shield advantage.

Others
-Jab 2 endlag slightly increased +1 frame, angle slightly lower 55 -> 51.
-Jab 2 hitbox shrunk to a more normalized size, hitbox moved out so it didn't lose horizontal range.
-Z Air landing lag increased 10 frames -> 15 frames, and hitboxes better match the snake.
-Tether-to-ledge range reduced to roughly match with range portrayed by dash & turn-grabs, and better match shorter zair and tether hang lengths.
-The following moves had their hitlag normalized: Down-b all hits, Neutral Air all hits, Forward Tilt, Down tilt, Down Air all hits.
-The following moves had their SDI normalized: PK Thunder 2 multi-hits, Down-b all hits, Neutral Air all hits, Down Air all hits.
Looks like many of his aerials have more lag. Idk how much this helps yet but maybe this'll help you think of some ways to counter his pressure.
 
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CORY

wut
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aerial or grounded? (or both, i suppose...) how are they affecting you? as in, are you in neutral and trying to position and shiek is just throwing out un/partially charged needles from the ground to mess with you? or is it as an edgeguarding tool and it's just stuffing up your options?

if it's aerial needles in neutral, you're probably making a bad decision and/or shiek is getting really hard reads on you.

grounded needles just involve a lot of staying on the ground ready to shield or being very precise about when and where you jump (for example, jumping onto a platform where you're at least relatively sure shiek can't punish and juggle you off of the landing). i don't believe fully charged grounded needles gives shiek advantage on shield, but i could be wrong (aerial needles, fully charged, most definitely DOES give advantage, though!).

if it's in terms of recovery, that's just rough. you want to recover as high as possible, which can be hard with shiek's fair sending low. otherwise, learn the arc and range that aerial needles can cover and try to not double jump within it, lest your dj be eaten. then there's the whole don't recover linear to the stage problem, with grounded needles : /

in general, against shiek, remember that her gameplan is typically to be lame and sit in spots that you feel really uncomfortable about and then try to make you do something about it. then, she beats your something that you just did. her dd game isn't that good (really short initial dash length. decent speed, but the length makes the dd not as useful as it is on, say, fox or cf), but she has a solid dash-wd/shield/crouch into tilt game.

you can outrange her, but she makes that rather obnoxiously difficult to do. stick to dtilt and if you go aerial to ground, try to stay safe with either ac nair into grab range (so you can start conditioning them to respect ac-nair-jab and then punish accordingly) or space out uair or rar bair (you can also try to be deceptive and space out ac-nair and go into d/ftilt, likely). then start using float if you think you'll get ftilted out of an approach or something like that.

aerial to aerial, you can outrange shiek, but shiek is going to like staying on the ground most of the time. fortunately, she doesn't move too quickly in the air, so you won't have the "nairplane" problem of a quick character throwing a fast, long lasting hitbox into you as you try to space an aerial. but, don't count on air-air encounters too much unless you've got shiek on tilt.

and when you do get to set up an edgeguard, MAKE IT COUNT. shiek is super easy to edgeguard, it's almost literally her biggest weakness. just start off with the edgehog and it becomes a (not really, but effectively so) 50-50 on is shiek going to land on stage or is shiek going to just keep going for the edge. if you think she'll land on stage, just ledge drop-land/wd and punish accordingly (there's enough landing lag that you should be able to wd past and grab into followup or tilt/smash to finish). otherwise, just hang out on the ledge, since she has no hitbox on reappearing.

sorry if i threw things out that you knew, i just tried to cover all the basics ;x
 

Super_Primid

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aerial or grounded? (or both, i suppose...) how are they affecting you? as in, are you in neutral and trying to position and shiek is just throwing out un/partially charged needles from the ground to mess with you? or is it as an edgeguarding tool and it's just stuffing up your options?

if it's aerial needles in neutral, you're probably making a bad decision and/or shiek is getting really hard reads on you.

grounded needles just involve a lot of staying on the ground ready to shield or being very precise about when and where you jump (for example, jumping onto a platform where you're at least relatively sure shiek can't punish and juggle you off of the landing). i don't believe fully charged grounded needles gives shiek advantage on shield, but i could be wrong (aerial needles, fully charged, most definitely DOES give advantage, though!).

if it's in terms of recovery, that's just rough. you want to recover as high as possible, which can be hard with shiek's fair sending low. otherwise, learn the arc and range that aerial needles can cover and try to not double jump within it, lest your dj be eaten. then there's the whole don't recover linear to the stage problem, with grounded needles : /

in general, against shiek, remember that her gameplan is typically to be lame and sit in spots that you feel really uncomfortable about and then try to make you do something about it. then, she beats your something that you just did. her dd game isn't that good (really short initial dash length. decent speed, but the length makes the dd not as useful as it is on, say, fox or cf), but she has a solid dash-wd/shield/crouch into tilt game.

you can outrange her, but she makes that rather obnoxiously difficult to do. stick to dtilt and if you go aerial to ground, try to stay safe with either ac nair into grab range (so you can start conditioning them to respect ac-nair-jab and then punish accordingly) or space out uair or rar bair (you can also try to be deceptive and space out ac-nair and go into d/ftilt, likely). then start using float if you think you'll get ftilted out of an approach or something like that.

aerial to aerial, you can outrange shiek, but shiek is going to like staying on the ground most of the time. fortunately, she doesn't move too quickly in the air, so you won't have the "nairplane" problem of a quick character throwing a fast, long lasting hitbox into you as you try to space an aerial. but, don't count on air-air encounters too much unless you've got shiek on tilt.

and when you do get to set up an edgeguard, MAKE IT COUNT. shiek is super easy to edgeguard, it's almost literally her biggest weakness. just start off with the edgehog and it becomes a (not really, but effectively so) 50-50 on is shiek going to land on stage or is shiek going to just keep going for the edge. if you think she'll land on stage, just ledge drop-land/wd and punish accordingly (there's enough landing lag that you should be able to wd past and grab into followup or tilt/smash to finish). otherwise, just hang out on the ledge, since she has no hitbox on reappearing.

sorry if i threw things out that you knew, i just tried to cover all the basics ;x
You forgot to mention that if you wanna be a crazy killer do the super unsafe down b through grounded needles and air reflect for air needles. :happysheep:
 

CORY

wut
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ground wiz kick would beat out fully charged needles if you get that hard ass read (like, you just went HARD and that shiek failed, hard read : p), but reflect wouldn't last long enough to stop all of the aerial needles, fully charged : ( maybe a single or double needle, but the length of time and the spread that the fully charged aerial needles fly at would make it not viable (probably impossible) to fully reflect all of them.

edit: yes, i see your sheep and i know you're being facetious : p
 
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Super_Primid

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 12, 2014
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The most needles that I have ever reflected was 3. Another time i reflected two and it felt liKe the 3rd One was Beat by the hitbox. Can someone confirm if this is possible or did it glitch out something. It's good that you saw tge sheep. All hail the sheep
 

CORY

wut
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well, it would be entirely timing dependent. shell said the reflect is active frames3-16, iirc, which is 13 frames total to be able to reflect. i'll have to look into shiek's fully charged needles, but i think the barrage lasts longer than 13 frames, just from anecdotal experience.
 
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