Floating to the Top v3.6: The Ganondorf Match Up Thread

[RelaxAlax]

Basically in these matchups, don't play like a Ganon player. Be super SUPER unpredictable, because they'll be looking for typical Ganon slip-ups or patterns.

Quite hard to get comfy in these matchups, but don't be afraid to play like a lame too . Sometimes, it's not the characters - its really outsmarting the players. Usually what I do with a Fox is avoid approaching at all costs, and bait him to do so. until I see an opening or a pattern of approaches he's fishing for. Ganon can get in on Fox once he gets an intial hit, it's just getting that initial hit that's the tough part.

Sheik I have no experience against, but I imagine it's a hell of a drug time. If I had to guess, play very anti-Ganon, bc they'll want you to approach and wait for your landing to make a move. Once they get in on you, you're gonna have a hard time getting out and, usually, requires the mixup of DI and their own error to reset it to neutral

I'd also like to add (posted to the social) that I think you can F-Smash Fox after D-throw when he's at 80-100 and get a KO. From practise against CPUS (all friends just play Smash 4 now) he won't be able to hit the ground and you can get a follow up if he DIs weird. When he goes behind, I usually can hit the Fsmash, but idk if it'd work fo reals, someone test plz

 

[Ace55]

Charizard, in a lot of ways, is like Ganon with slightly less potent killing power and a marginally more effective recovery and grab game, in my opinion. 55-45 as well.

Meh, I pretty much main both and I don't really agree. Aside from being big and having nice range I don't really see the similarities.

Just to add some insight, I'm fairly certain that Ganondorf beats Charizard in 3.5. If you're ready to deal with a ground approach, literally-ish everything else that Charizard can do is punishable on shield with an up-B OoS at least. He's fairly easy to edge guard, the combos on 'Zard are brutal, and he's hard not to hit. It might even be 60-40, though it's more likely somewhere between that and even.

I'll try to play this MU some more soon but I doubt stuff like spaced rar nair, dtilt or bair are that unsafe on Ganon's shield.Otherwise Zard outmaneuvers Ganon hard on the ground and since Ganon can't force an approach Zard can just DD camp his heart out. I also can't see Ganon comboing Zard that amazingly. Harass him with upairs sure but since when is Ganon good at comboing floaties, even fat ones? Now Ganon, being the big somewhat fastfaller he is, is pretty much exactly what Charizard is looking for in a combo target. The same kind of goes for recovery, sure Ganon can challenge Zard's recovery decently but it's likely even worse the other way around.

Like I said I want to play the matchup some more in 3.5 but looking as a Zard I'm still thinking DD camp and combo the heck out of him.

I'm also kind of skeptical about Falcon being even. I just don't see Ganon winning matchups against mobile characters that combo and kill him easily.

 

[CORY]

Now Ganon, being the big somewhat fastfaller he is, is pretty much exactly what Charizard is looking for in a combo target.

i just feel compelled to point out that ganon isn't a semifastfaller at all, really.

18-19) Ganon/Lucario [2.0]

he's right in the middle of the pack. he actually falls slower than marth (who's at 12).

even his fastfall is squarely at number 20, almost exactly middle of the pack.

 

[Ace55]

i just feel compelled to point out that ganon isn't a semifastfaller at all, really.

18-19) Ganon/Lucario [2.0]

he's right in the middle of the pack. he actually falls slower than marth (who's at 12).

even his fastfall is squarely at number 20, almost exactly middle of the pack.

Meh, I was trying to point out he isn't exactly a floatie, but yeah you're right.

 

[CORY]

yeah, you're right about ganon being combo bait, but it's not from semi-fastfaller, it's primarily from being a large framed fat ass, so he doesn't go too far at lower percents (and from weaker hits) and is easy to tag with stray attacks : p

i mostly agree with the rest of your statements (i haven't played too many zards, so i don't have enough experience to corroborate or refute your statements on the matchup, but they "feel" correct).

 

[Ace55]

Played the matchup some yesterday. Not a winning or even matchup for Ganon at all imo. Zard has the superior neutral (makes him look like a slug on-stage, can challenge Ganon's range, typically with faster moves), harder punish game (freaking every stray hit confirms into a string, other way around not so much) and better recovery (reverse nair alone makes Ganon cry while recovering, Zard actually has a decent chance to get back). Honestly I'd say 40-60 at the very least.

Still think he loses to Falcon as well but at least he can punish the living crap out of him. DD grab is still his kryptonite though.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Played the matchup some yesterday. Not a winning or even matchup for Ganon at all imo. Zard has the superior neutral (makes him look like a slug on-stage, can challenge Ganon's range, typically with faster moves), harder punish game (freaking every stray hit confirms into a string, other way around not so much) and better recovery (reverse nair alone makes Ganon cry while recovering, Zard actually has a decent chance to get back). Honestly I'd say 40-60 at the very least.

If you aren't converting off of your hits on a giant fat lizard like Charizard, floaty or no, your combo game is likely lacking. I'm still fairly certain it's in our favor, an even match up at worst.

 

[Ace55]

If you aren't converting off of your hits on a giant fat lizard like Charizard, floaty or no, your combo game is likely lacking. I'm still fairly certain it's in our favor, an even match up at worst.

At low% you get some strings. How do you propose Ganon should combo him after 50%ish? Poorly DI'd jab, nair, maybe upair or dash attack could get you a followup (aside from the obvious grab, choke-slam or dair). Serious question, maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

At low% you get some strings. How do you propose Ganon should combo him after 50%ish? Poorly DI'd jab, nair, maybe upair or dash attack could get you a followup (aside from the obvious grab, choke-slam or dair). Serious question, maybe I'm missing something.

Wavelanding uair or bair gets you real close to Charizard even at mid percents, with enough time to either jab/f-tilt or bait a response to net an aerial choke (which is easy to land due to his size). When the combos stop working, your hits should be leading to edge guard situations, which are easy to convert off of thanks to Charizard's 3.5 nerfs.

Basically, Charizard is simple to edge guard, combo food at low to mid percents, and doesn't have an oppressive neutral game that can't be beat simply by auto-cancelling nairs and reacting to his approach. His ground speed is great, but his options out of dash are easy enough to stuff, and anything he tries to get started in the air is easy to punish with up-B OoS and wavedash OoS.

We aren't as outright messed up by his edgeguarding anymore either thanks nair landing lag nerfs (harder to spam next to ledge) and the addition of float.

I am absolutely certain that this is an even match up at worst and I, personally, find it very easy to do well against the character. It wasn't even that bad in 3.0, but 3.5 made everything so much easier for us against Charizard it's crazy.

Edit: Oh, and faster Nair makes getting out of combos easier. Float also provides a very decent mix up when stuck in that unfortunate space above Charizard where he's looking to start a new combo/eat you with uair.

 

[Ace55]

Maybe I'm biased because I'm looking through the perspective of the Charizard (I don't have any other Charizards to play against) but I still don't agree with your assessment.

Charizard is simple to edge guard, combo food at low to mid percents, and doesn't have an oppressive neutral game

Even if this is somewhat true try looking at these statements from Zard's perspective: 'Ganon is simple to edge guard, combo food, and doesn't have an oppressive neutral game' and they are even more true.

His ground speed is great, but his options out of dash are easy enough to stuff

His options out of dash can include pretty much anything, between pivoting and crouch stopping your run.

and anything he tries to get started in the air is easy to punish with up-B OoS and wavedash OoS.

I'd have to see this to believe it. If this catches spaced aerial -> dash away I'll be surprised. I'll try to test it next time I get a chance.

We aren't as outright messed up by his edgeguarding anymore either thanks nair landing lag nerfs (harder to spam next to ledge) and the addition of float.

You don't have to spam it vs Ganon, nor is (or was) that a great idea in general imo, typically you just want to predict the upB and time it accordingly. Against Ganon and Falcon you can just react to the upB. Side-B can be a little trickier depending how much room for mix-ups Ganon has left but jab (if he comes at you), dtilt and nair work like a charm.

For now I'm gonna agree to disagree I guess. I really feel like this is one of the many matchups where Ganon shouldn't win as long as the opponent doesn't 'give' him stuff and he doesn't outplay them significantly.

 

[TheFatHen]

I've been practicing my Ganon for a while now and got good with a lot of match-ups but i'm still struggling with the wolf match up. My main problem is if I try to approach just get put into a combo any advice?

 

[Taytertot]

I've been practicing my Ganon for a while now and got good with a lot of match-ups but i'm still struggling with the wolf match up. My main problem is if I try to approach just get put into a combo any advice?

Hmmm well i certainly can say i know this MU well but i might be able to give very general ideas around theory. Id imagine that wolf has a pretty damn good punish game, at least from what ive seen from rat and chillindude. That would mean that going in is going to be difficult for ganon but id imagine that if wolf fires a laser and your floating over it (i.e. you read/ knew that s/he'd throw out a laser) then you might be able to punish and once you get wolf offstage then things should be much simpler because of his linear recovery. Im curious if ganon's reflect can be used on the lasers without being punished. If so then using that could potentially give you a way in, especially if they dont expect it. I believe that wolf would be able to fire another laser before a reflected laser would hit him so you'd need to catch them off guard to hit them with it, but if the wol fires another laser to cancel out the reflected one that might be enough time to go in with a punish.

Im sure others will be able to say more certainly of how to deal with wolf, but i hope this helps.

 

[gtAngel]

Marth player here to share my thoughts on matchup:

Ganon vs Marth is a very difficult matchup for Marth. Ganon's f-tilt gives him better range on the ground and his weight makes jabs, d-tilts, and non-tip f-tilts unsafe even if Ganon doesn't shield them. Marth's incredible grab also struggles in this matchup - Ganon's jab beats it at close range and throws don't combo into anything at most percents.

Ganon is very hard to punish in the air. Fair out-prioritizes Marth's attacks, but what makes Ganon hard to deal with is the float. Floating makes it impossible to accurately predict where Ganon will be at any point, so Marth has to have insane reactions, make guesses, or back off. Any mistake here allows Ganon to get in a lot of damage for not much reward.

The float also makes it very hard to edgeguard Ganon. Unless he comes from below the stage, Ganon has so many potential recovery paths that Marth can't punish without insane reactions or lucky guesses. (Although if Ganon's coming from below the stage Marth can reliably punish.)

The matchup isn't unwinnable, but it is very difficult. As Marth I have most of the initiative in the matchup, a couple mostly-safe poke options (wavedash f-tilt, spaced fairs), and the tools to punish any mistakes that Ganon makes. The main difficulty is that Marth has very few useful options, has to work with extreme precision, has to be able to react to a very large number of different options, and is punished extremely harshly for any mistakes.

Verdict: Ganondorf 57.5 / Marth 42.5 (+- 2.5)

____

Disclaimer: This is just my thoughts on the matchup. It mainly comes from my own experience playing against a Ganondorf main. We play at the level where we use ATs regularly, but not perfectly. There aren't many resources on this matchup unfortunately, so we've mostly developed our strategies for the matchup on our own.

 

[Bazkip]

Fair out-prioritizes Marth's attacks

The other stuff I can maybe buy/agree with but this is flat out wrong. You have a sword. Ganon's fair has a bit of disjoint, but it doesn't come anywhere near to that of a sword. Not to mention that it has a decent amount of startup, whereas Marth has many quick options (your fair is probably best here). It's never going to straight up beat any of Marth's (relevant) attacks.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Yeah, uptilt destroys Ganon in the air. Ganon's bigger strength in this matchup is his bulky weight which lets him CC sloppy spacing by the Marth

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

I play a guy frequently who's a melee Marth and is pretty darn good, and another guy - with less frequency - who also plays her and is passible.

Martha is one of those characters who - unless you've really got momentum going - you really don't have to approach that much. Without a projectile, she'll more often than not come to you. Fair has a lot more endlag than you'd think and can be punished if they misspace it (wavedash oos to grab or if they get too close). You get like... two chaingrab grabs off of downthrow at 0 so be ready to try and juggle with upair or nair. I actually prefer nair after my second grab, since the low height combined with Martha's floaty-ish-ness lets the two hits link together quite well.

Flame choke becomes decidedly less opportune to a fair-happy Martha, as it'll choke you up and she can go right in and combo the everloving snot out of you, but that comes with the Ganon-territory. If they sit dash dancing for a while - perhaps at a 100%+ and are unwilling to approach for fear of a fair or upair - it can be useful to toss out a wizkick every so often. Don't rely heavily as I believe fair can easily beat you, but it can be useful to catch them offguard.

Upair is - in my opinion - probably your best anti-Martha tool. Fair beats her sword flails sometimes, sure, but a nice, low upair can pick her right off the ground and lead into all sorts of other things. Plus, sourspot upair offstage just eats her. She has to recover?RAR upair. She going to sweetspot ledge? Very end hit of upair. Saute her with some bell peppers and paprika because she is done.

 

[CORY]

I play a guy frequently who's a melee Marth and is pretty darn good, and another guy - with less frequency - who also plays her and is passible.

Martha is one of those characters who - unless you've really got momentum going - you really don't have to approach that much. Without a projectile, she'll more often than not come to you. Fair has a lot more endlag than you'd think and can be punished if they misspace it (wavedash oos to grab or if they get too close). You get like... two chaingrab grabs off of downthrow at 0 so be ready to try and juggle with upair or nair. I actually prefer nair after my second grab, since the low height combined with Martha's floaty-ish-ness lets the two hits link together quite well.

Flame choke becomes decidedly less opportune to a fair-happy Martha, as it'll choke you up and she can go right in and combo the everloving snot out of you, but that comes with the Ganon-territory. If they sit dash dancing for a while - perhaps at a 100%+ and are unwilling to approach for fear of a fair or upair - it can be useful to toss out a wizkick every so often. Don't rely heavily as I believe fair can easily beat you, but it can be useful to catch them offguard.

Upair is - in my opinion - probably your best anti-Martha tool. Fair beats her sword flails sometimes, sure, but a nice, low upair can pick her right off the ground and lead into all sorts of other things. Plus, sourspot upair offstage just eats her. She has to recover?RAR upair. She going to sweetspot ledge? Very end hit of upair. Saute her with some bell peppers and paprika because she is done.

At work on my phone, so can't really break stuff down, but there's A LOT of bad advice in here, from a quick look over

 

[gtAngel]

Against Marth (Marth's a guy btw) you have to be very careful with Wizard Kick and Flame Choke. They're useful mixup options but Marth can deal with both of them. Flame Choke can be spot dodged or hit away and Wizard Kick can be shielded to give Marth a free grab.

To deal with Marth's u-tilt you want to use your cape float and mixup potential effectively. Out of the air you can wiz kick, dair, fair, or airdoge/waveland. All of these require a different response and timing from Marth, and with the float you can come with a huge amount of different possible timings. It's actually very difficult for Marth to reliably stop Ganon from landing unless Ganon is already staggered.

U-air is definitely a great tool to use in the air. It comes out extremely quickly with a large hitbox so it's very strong against most of Marth's options.

 

[Scuba Steve]

lol float to wizkick

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

I know Marth is a guy, it was a joke.

I can see how my advice can be poor, since I really have only those two guys to play. That's just been my experience, so if I mislead anyone I apologize.

 

[CORY]

ok, now that i'm back at home, i can be more thorough. sorry if i came off as an ass, it's kind of a pita to type on my phone ;x

...who also plays her ...
Martha...

all true >: D

Martha is one of those characters who - unless you've really got momentum going - you really don't have to approach that much. Without a projectile, she'll more often than not come to you.

marth doesn't need to approach ganon unless you have the stock lead. he has the speed and range (and an amazing dash dance to go with them) to be able to just wait you out and bait you into doing something then punishing it. he needs to approach less than ganon does, so if marth decides to approach you when you don't have the stock lead, congratulations, you're playing someone very impatient.

Fair has a lot more endlag than you'd think and can be punished if they misspace it (wavedash oos to grab or if they get too close).

true, but not that punishable, especially not on shield. it has 7 frames lcancelled lag, and sourspot is 7 frames shield stun, sweet is 8. ganon's wd is 15 frames, so you can't punish it that way unless they decide to do something weird like full hop rising fair. if it's spaced and off a short hop, your best bet is to just get out of the situation (roll, dodge, whatever) because marth is going to have the advantage there. now, you can punish whiffs well, especially if you can call him out on the fair and avoid it with a dash dance or just by coming in above him with something.

You get like... two chaingrab grabs off of downthrow at 0 so be ready to try and juggle with upair or nair. I actually prefer nair after my second grab, since the low height combined with Martha's floaty-ish-ness lets the two hits link together quite well.

i think you can chaingrab marth up til like... 40 ish? at low percents, i actually totally agree with dthrow-sh nair. that's a lot of damage you can get out of it and marth won't be too far away, helping with followups. however, you're going to have to force marth to misspace something pretty fierce to get that grab (or just catch him messing up, so you can set up a grab, either through ac-nair conditioning or straight from aerial flame choke).

If they sit dash dancing for a while - perhaps at a 100%+ and are unwilling to approach for fear of a fair or upair - it can be useful to toss out a wizkick every so often. Don't rely heavily as I believe fair can easily beat you, but it can be useful to catch them offguard.

no, do no just throw out wizkick in neutral. DO. NOT. it's start up is just at the bottom edge of human reaction time, and if you're any appreciable distance and the marth is waiting for you to do something to react to it, you're going to get shielded and punished. save the wizkicking for tech/roll punish situations or the very hardest of reads that will either get you a stock straight up or set up strongly for one.

Upair is - in my opinion - probably your best anti-Martha tool. Fair beats her sword flails sometimes, sure, but a nice, low upair can pick her right off the ground and lead into all sorts of other things. Plus, sourspot upair offstage just eats her. She has to recover?RAR upair. She going to sweetspot ledge? Very end hit of upair. Saute her with some bell peppers and paprika because she is done.

i'll agree with uair advice. it works well to punish whiffs and can sometimes force trades in your favor.

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

Well, I got into my own head fretting about this plenty, but I suppose that's my own fault.

The Marth I play is not overly impatient, but is more prone to approaching. The succulent combo game Marth has on Ganon is apparently hard for him to resist. As an approach-happy player myself, I guess I simply noticed that when I finally stop approaching, he'd often come in, fair's blazing. Not literally, a'course. Blazing is reserved for the stoners who smoke outside my window and Roy.
I don't know where I got the idea that you can't chain-grab Marth too much - it's been a while, so perhaps I've simply mis-remembered.
I'll grant that the grab oos on fair is perhaps inferior advice, seeing as when I get that grab it is usually to a fair spaced far too close.


I still say the wizkick can be useful with unusual applications. Normally I'd totally admit my advice here is wrong, but I've succeed in it and seen it succeed a laughable amount of times - often by Junebug in S@X weekly. I grant that it is not to be thrown out recklessly, lightly, or even on a per-match basis. This is something done to the frequency where the phrase "once in a blue moon" would be frequent. My point was less that it should be used often, but more that you shouldn't be afraid to use it - which was probably lost in my nonsense. Though I'll concede that it is probably pretty weak advice to give on this thread.

 

[HiroProtagonist]

I really like the Marth-Ganon Matchup actually. It feels like a very low-cheese matchup where both players don't have loads of gimmicks or stupid options on each other. Getting edgeguarded by Marth is stressful but we can also edgeguard him pretty easily so its a give and take.

 

[Stalled]

Reverse uair edgeguard marth until the sun freezes, it's super easy, at least in melee.

 

[Taytertot]

id imagine that with float reverse uair edgeguarding marth would be that much easier.

 

[Stalled]

You dont need to float or even go offstage. Just turn around at the edge and fall with a reverse uair, it beats marth's up b in priority and will semi spike him away.

 

[Drunkinsnail]

So, I've been having a lot of trouble with both DK and Wario, particularly in the realm of DI. I play the neutral game well enough to put things in my favor generally, but any grab with DK and just about any stray hit with Wario gets me combod to hell. Most of the time it leads to death. DK's a little easier cuz I do feel like I only have to worry too strongly about his grab, but this fool reacts to every different DI I try to do and has what appears to be a kill combo from any direction. It may actually be as cut and dry as "This is free, don't get grabbed/hit/whatever" but if there's anything you guys know about the matchups in regards to that, it's be greatly appreciated.

As for Wario, I do know my mindgames in the matchup do need to be a bit stronger so that I don't get baited into bite setups and crap like that, but this mu just seems like a struggle. Blocked shoulder feels like one of the only things I can punish when I do manage to land a hit with his ridiculous mobility, but even when I get a solid punish, Wario's at a really wonky weight where I don't really feel confident in stringing anything together.

Anyway, help would be much obliged, cuz I just can't wrap my head around things. Maybe I'll get lucky and Strongbad will just give me the breakdown. lolol

 

[Taytertot]

So, I've been having a lot of trouble with both DK and Wario, particularly in the realm of DI. I play the neutral game well enough to put things in my favor generally, but any grab with DK and just about any stray hit with Wario gets me combod to hell. Most of the time it leads to death. DK's a little easier cuz I do feel like I only have to worry too strongly about his grab, but this fool reacts to every different DI I try to do and has what appears to be a kill combo from any direction. It may actually be as cut and dry as "This is free, don't get grabbed/hit/whatever" but if there's anything you guys know about the matchups in regards to that, it's be greatly appreciated.

As for Wario, I do know my mindgames in the matchup do need to be a bit stronger so that I don't get baited into bite setups and crap like that, but this mu just seems like a struggle. Blocked shoulder feels like one of the only things I can punish when I do manage to land a hit with his ridiculous mobility, but even when I get a solid punish, Wario's at a really wonky weight where I don't really feel confident in stringing anything together.

Neither of these mu's are well known to me but id imagine that DK's cargo throw allows him to pretty easily get a follow up regardless of DI so as far as that goes you'll probably just need to put a lot into avoiding the grab. Im unsure about the the DK mu as a whole, but i do know that he hits about as hard as you do and has better range so i feel that its about very carefully getting in with solid hits and once you've sent away with a heavier attack play calmly because DK's recovery is really easy to disrupt and ganon has the perfect tools (i.e. priority) to continually hit DK back off the stage until DK simply cant make it. Obviously this means that attacks with low trajectory but fair knockback are going to be great to setup easy edgeguarding, the main issue is that DK will probably know that you want that so you'll have to work your way in to his space so your not getting punished. Hopefully others give you more advice though because ive never played a DK or Wario as ganon.

Wario seems to me like an opposite situation where you have the better range and you have the more powerful attacks so wario has to find a careful way in. the difference being that wario has great mobility for working his way in. that means your going to have to use fast hitboxes (i.e. jab, nair, possibly ftilt) so that when wario opens himself up you get a hit and can work in some momentum before resetting to neutral. If the wario is playing really close to you then you may be able to catch him off-guard with aerial side b which should give you a free jab followup. Again, i dont know this mu and if anyone says im wrong on something theyre probably right.

 

[Drunkinsnail]

Unfamiliarity seems to be the biggest issue with everyone I ask. Figured I'd broaden my search scope a bit with Smashboards, but it seems to be a bit of an unknown. I do appreciate a response though. It at least tells me it doesn't go ignored. =P

 

[HiroProtagonist]

There were loads of DK vs. Ganon matches in the 3.02 vid thread. Not sure if those are relevant anymore.

 

[Taytertot]

Unfamiliarity seems to be the biggest issue with everyone I ask. Figured I'd broaden my search scope a bit with Smashboards, but it seems to be a bit of an unknown. I do appreciate a response though. It at least tells me it doesn't go ignored. =P

an unfortunate issue sometimes but give it a few days because sometimes those who are knowledgeable on an mu just havent logged on and seen your question yet. Until then Id say theory can still help (i.e. breaking down the moveset and movement options of a character as a whole and consider where that character may lack good options and try to exploit that in your sets or against friends. If you dont have anyone to play with then even the CPU can give some insight as to what weaknesses might exist for a given character).

 

[Taytertot]

I'm playing at a PM tourney on saturday and feel very under-prepared since ive heard that this tournament gathers players from Oregon up (its in bellingham wa) and Im am fairly certain that I will not be much of a match so I wanted to hear what the ganon players thought about advice as to what mus to watch out for, and (assuming that I dont know all the techs for ganon) what techs I should know that will help or help vs a large number of characters? I havent gotten a chance to use ganon in tourney because I picked him up after the 3.5 buff so any advice for playing ganon at tourneys would be great.

 

[CORY]

shiek, falco, snake feel like the worst matchups, imo. there are others, but those are outright sucky just due to how they control the stage and/or game.

as per ganon play: just watch your spacing and get good at reads. the usual shffl rules that i like to espouse apply, but otherwise, just watch your spacing, since ganon has more range than people expect. if you have time to practice on it, work out the timing for sh-bair-wl, both hitting something and not, in all directions (i.e. jumping towards someone, and wl away and towards them. or rar-sh-bair-wl, both away and towards. etc...)

 

[Taytertot]

shiek, falco, snake feel like the worst matchups, imo. there are others, but those are outright sucky just due to how they control the stage and/or game.

as per ganon play: just watch your spacing and get good at reads. the usual shffl rules that i like to espouse apply, but otherwise, just watch your spacing, since ganon has more range than people expect. if you have time to practice on it, work out the timing for sh-bair-wl, both hitting something and not, in all directions (i.e. jumping towards someone, and wl away and towards them. or rar-sh-bair-wl, both away and towards. etc...)

Sweet thanks for the advice! Do you feel that shiek falco and snake would be more manageable as roy (who i also play)? I'll definitely practice shbairwl.

 

[CORY]

Can't comment on Roy, don't have much personal experience as him, but a lot of people tend to think he has a good spacies matchup. A lot of people also think he's upper/top tier, as well, so there's that...

 

[Taytertot]

yeah i find it hard to say because while he certainly has great tools to combo spacies he also can get gimped, comboed and pressured by them pretty easily. Regardless thank you. Im just trying to get a feel for when to switch. Speaking of that, what are mu's that seem very much in ganons favor or even slightly in his favor?

 

[Professional_Bird]

does anyone have good lucas experience? i just got done playing our local lucas and it's real rough, but most of it is that i don't know what he can do to my shield and what i can do back out of it. the only thing i picked up is that if he commits to magnet, you can grab him out of it (sometimes?).

are there any cues or certain moves/movements he'll do on your shield that you can use to clue into and start picking patterns up? everything just sounds like a subwoofer blowing out to me and i can't tell what he's doing well enough to get a clue, so i end up practically blinding picking an option and hoping i got the right roulette slot.

I find that I usually like to use the choke on Lucas as you can almost immediately wizard kick or down tilt after he gets dropped (I apologize I'm not the best with smash terminology) Also floating, and using the dair while lucas is recovering to get the spike is a good, but risky, method.

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

what are mu's that seem very much in ganons favor or even slightly in his favor?

For what it is worth, Ganon beats Game and Watch fairly handily. Game and Watch made life difficult for Ganon - and any other slow and/or big character - with his movement-stopping Chef spam, but now that that is gone, Ganon is free to mobilize and outrange/eat Game and Watch. Since, nobody plays Game and Watch other than the, like, 20 people over at the Gdubs threads (myself included), I doubt you'll be exposed to it too much in any case.

That, and maybe Bowser, is the only real matchup I can think of where Ganon has a distinct advantage. I feel like most are fairly even or negative. Don't quote me on that, as I'm not certain.

 

[CORY]

yeah, i feel fairly comfortable against most bowsers. he's huge and we have huge hitbox coverage, which combined with our command grab, gives a lot of fun possibilities.

i can't comment on gnw, though. pretty much every gnw i've played has either been notably worse than me, or basically a top tier player ;x but it makes sense. he's quick, but not terribly so, has decent range, but slowish attacks, and he's really light. so he can't just rush you down and beat your own startup on moves, and if you get that one hit, it should convert to the stock or an edgeguard situation rather easily...

I find that I usually like to use the choke on Lucas as you can almost immediately wizard kick or down tilt after he gets dropped (I apologize I'm not the best with smash terminology) Also floating, and using the dair while lucas is recovering to get the spike is a good, but risky, method.

but how do you set up the flamechoke on lucas? he's fast and flamechoke has a literally human reactable startup. you also can't just use it to power through moves, since it has a negative disjoint, and it just loses to projectiles right out. and, the only guaranteed followup on lucas out of aerial flame choke is a jab or a first hit of utilt (if he di's poorly and you have frame perfect timing), anything else means he missed a tech, either intentionally or not.

and i'm really looking more for, like... how to deal with the neutral against him. he's fast, has really solid mobility options, so he doesn't need to commit too hard, and has quick hitboxes, along with a solid projectile. i've since figured out you really want to just be up close in your own midrange (that spot where you can clip them with the end of f/dtilt, but he can't necessarily do anything besides commit to a grab), but with his speed and mobility, that's a bit tricky. and then what to do if you get caught in shield against him? is it lost at that point (obviously, you want to just not let it happen)? or does anyone have any idea what typical lucas shield pressure is like and what you can do to get out of it (or out of different strings) with the lowest chance of getting punished?

 

[Electric Tuba]

Lucas:
In neutral against lucas, a lot of players will love to just throw pk freeze until they can get close enough and land a hit confirm to run in and start a combo. You can fight this by either using platforms, powershielding, or just wizkicking through pk freeze if he's close enough. It's not as good as in 3.0, though, and the hitstun is shorter the farther away he is meaning he can't always follow up from far away (and in fact, usually can't from max range).

Lucas shield pressure is tricky. There are so many different options and ways he can apply the pressure it's sometimes difficult to know when you can get out. Just buffering rolls can give you some breathing room, but aside from that your oos options are pretty slow. I'll play more ganon against our lucas (Ruin) and see if I can get some ideas.

Bowser:
I actually don't think this is a bad matchup for Bowser, since he can combo ganon so brutally as well. Bowser's fair has a range as ridiculous as Ganon's, and I feel like whoever gets hit first/most will die very quickly. Both recoveries are really easily gimpable, and both characters have a command grab (though bowser has a lot better followups after his). Bowser's also got a godlike oos option in his up-b, and can edgeguard like nobody's business. Ganon has movement over him, though, so that should be something to really use. It would be a fun matchup to play, though.