Floating to the Top v3.6: The Ganondorf Match Up Thread

[GreyFox]

I'm struggling with MUs like Diddy / Fox because they are extremely fast characters with less startup lag on moves. Does anyone have any tips that could help with this. Personally I do have my movement perfected ( perfect wavedash / waveland , float game) and I do understand Ganon's neutral game( AC N-air / Up-Air, Tilts, Options out Aerial Flame Choke which is character specific )

Examples

Diddy: He just takes control of the game by his banana play / aerials, then just combos / tech reads me to death. Most just say dont let him get his banana but that just isn't a viable option that helps with this MU.

Fox: He can easily just shine and prevent my approaches while spamming lazers in neutral. The issues isn't related to ledge guarding / getting ledge guarded, It is mostly just the struggle with Fox's neutral game and his combos I cannot get out of or prevent.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I'm struggling with MUs like Diddy / Fox because they are extremely fast characters with less startup lag on moves. Does anyone have any tips that could help with this. Personally I do have my movement perfected ( perfect wavedash / waveland , float game) and I do understand Ganon's neutral game( AC N-air / Up-Air, Tilts, Options out Aerial Flame Choke which is character specific )

Examples

Diddy: He just takes control of the game by his banana play / aerials, then just combos / tech reads me to death. Most just say dont let him get his banana but that just isn't a viable option that helps with this MU.

Fox: He can easily just shine and prevent my approaches while spamming lazers in neutral. The issues isn't related to ledge guarding / getting ledge guarded, It is mostly just the struggle with Fox's neutral game and his combos I cannot get out of or prevent.

I'd like to see this perfected movement

 

[GreyFox]

I'd like to see this perfected movement

Okay that was a poor choice of words I wrote this between lectureS. Polished or well practiced would have better or I could have just said I know my movement options and I use them all.

 

[ManonTheGanon]

Does anyone have any MU experience in Ganondorf v Lucario? One of our region's best players is a Lucario main and I really struggle with the matchup. I usually space out a lot of nairs and try to bait approaches but I feel like when he is in the only thing I can do is buffer rolls and wait for it to happen again. His good spot dodge and double team just really work numbers if I try to do anything besides autocancelled nair options.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Yeah, don't get hit.

But really, be very careful about challenging approaches while he has aura. You can do it, but there's a lot of invincibility. Use fair and bair at max range to try and keep him away as well, and whenever he goes off stage don't let him back. His recovery is relatively easy to stop, just a little tricky to time until you get the hang of it.

 

[GreyFox]

Does anyone have any MU experience in Ganondorf v Lucario? One of our region's best players is a Lucario main and I really struggle with the matchup. I usually space out a lot of nairs and try to bait approaches but I feel like when he is in the only thing I can do is buffer rolls and wait for it to happen again. His good spot dodge and double team just really work numbers if I try to do anything besides autocancelled nair options.

Yeah this MU is a struggle. Mostly focus on spacing your aerials like fade aways and such. Baiting out and punish is Ganon's game obviously so try to abuse this as much as possible. Ftilt / Dtilt are your best friends, Ftilt out of wavedash / waveland. Work towards not dropping your ledge guard. Up-Air is also incredibly useful in stopping his approaches as well. Also DACUS is necessary for MUs Ganon struggles with approaching. Dont forget you can Aerial Volley his projectiles with your Cape. Lastly MIX UP YOUR DI. Lucario being dependant on combos because he lacks reliable kill moves, it is vital you DI correctly. Ganon is prone to being combo'd, if you find yourself being put in this combos over and over, change up your DI and punish the whiffed follow up. Also N-Air / Up-Air can be used successfully to break out with the correct DI.

Also dont forget Ganon's spot dodge is amazing, it is similar to Fox's to put it in perspective.

 

[Taytertot]

I'm struggling with MUs like Diddy / Fox because they are extremely fast characters with less startup lag on moves. Does anyone have any tips that could help with this. Personally I do have my movement perfected ( perfect wavedash / waveland , float game) and I do understand Ganon's neutral game( AC N-air / Up-Air, Tilts, Options out Aerial Flame Choke which is character specific )

Examples

Diddy: He just takes control of the game by his banana play / aerials, then just combos / tech reads me to death. Most just say dont let him get his banana but that just isn't a viable option that helps with this MU.

Fox: He can easily just shine and prevent my approaches while spamming lazers in neutral. The issues isn't related to ledge guarding / getting ledge guarded, It is mostly just the struggle with Fox's neutral game and his combos I cannot get out of or prevent.

best i can give you for fighting fox is to watch Kage's matches in PM (assuming hes had PM matches vs fox players) and in melee because the MU isnt going to be much different other than ganon's moves are better in PM. Im not sure how well bizzaroflame does in the fox MU but his matches might also be good to watch. I think it comes down to good reads unfortunately.

I have no idea about diddy seems like a bad MU as well, though i can give a couple tips. pick stages with a lot of platforms so that his bananas are less useful in stopping your movement. If the diddy is willing to camp you out with bananas and peanuts then get good at wavedashing back to catch them midair, which you can then use against him (i find the ideal range to catch his bananas/peanuts and punish poor options or movement is just inside the full range of a non-charged peanut shot). If the diddy tries to approach you in neutral then maybe grounded downB can power through his options and possibly beat a banana toss as diddy jumps at you as well, but i dont know for sure that downB will beat bananas or if the banana still makes you trip. Not letting get his banana out should help you so im not sure how the match is going or what you/the diddy player are doing to make that not helpful (could be due to you not spacing close enough to diddy, no offense).

 

[ManonTheGanon]

Yeah DI has became really important since he can either get a chaingrab, or a guaranteed AFP from Dthrow/Uthrow. Its a really horrible mixup for Ganondorf though. I usually use a lot of wavelands and try to maximise platform movement since Lucario doesnt have many approach tools, this Lucario specifically uses a lot of dash attack/double team uptilt/smash attack. Being on the ground and being forced into shield is just absolutely not good. Coming in as low as possible for your recovery is really important to avoid things like the aura ball, so you can either SDI into and tech the stage, or stall enough with float to avoid it entirely. He has lots of options though.

 

[Bearedman8]

Hey everyone, I'm a Fox main and might be playing against a high level Ganon in a tournament soon. With the bottom row as neutrals and middle row as counterpicks, what stages should I ban/counterpick to (with 3 bans)? I'm guessing that I should ban three of YS, GHZ, Warioware, and FoD? Any recommendation for which ones, if I'm right in picking those 4? How about where I should go? Does FD favor either character?

 

[CORY]

always ban ghz, unless you're comfortable with the fact that ganon can kill you at around 50 off a read ;x same with ys. ghz is more about the size of the stage than the blastzones, but they're also rather short.

fod, i personally dislike as a stage, but that stage itself isn't too big, which is good for ganon as well. the blastzones are a healthy distance away, though, so that's less of a factor. if you know he's REALLY good about not missing platform tech chases, maybe ban that over ghz.

you could take ganon to fd, but he can uthrow chaingrab you for a good while and there aren't any platforms to aid in run away laser spam, which might be a bit difficult. ps2, distant planet, maybe dreamland would be stages i REALLY don't want to deal with fox on, just due to stage length+platforms aiding in his movement.

 

[Bearedman8]

Thanks for the reply. It sounds like a lot of it comes down to preference between those 4 stages since they're all really good Ganon stages. I'm definitely going to ban Warioware, and I'll probably just leave open whatever stage I'm most comfortable on from the next 3.

It also sounds like Fox has some really strong counterpicks against Ganon. PS2, DP, Dreamland, Norfair, etc. all give me a lot of room to run around. FD is one of my favorite stages so I'm not sure if I'd prefer to go there over one of the aforementioned ones - how long does the uthrow chaingrab last for?

Also, if I get caught in a grounded side-B, what tech options are the hardest to cover/what's a good mix-up strategy? How much of your follow up will be on reaction (like punishing a missed tech, which seems pretty easy to do on reaction) vs. making a read? I'm guessing that I never really want to purposefully miss the tech. If I do a tech roll and then react well, do you have to make a read in order to catch me or can you still punish that on reaction?

 

[CORY]

Ganon doesn't have guaranteed follow ups to grounded sideb, AFAIK (maybe jab on di towards ganon?). He's going to mostly go on reads.

If you don't tech, he can land wizkick, dtilt, maybe down angled ftilt; think all those will beat getup attacks, as well (eitherntiming wise, or just put powering it).

Wizkick covers tech in place and tech forward, as well, but it's not always ideal, in terms of ffollowups, since you might just reset to neutral.

Sideb can probably cover tech in front, tech in place, and delayed standup (but not get up attack).

On mobile, so about the best I can put out for now.

 

[Taytertot]

if you tech in place the grounded sideB you might be able to shine ganon before he can sideB you again. aerial sideB gives ganon quite a bit more frame advantage then grounded sideB against the whole cast as far as i know (though not enough to get a combo vs fox if you tech i believe). Generally speaking fox beats ganon by overwhelming him with pressure and running circles around him because ganon doesnt have the best defensive options and has poor mobility if that helps with stage choices.

ganon definitely cant get a combo on reaction as far as I know to you tech rolling unless your reaction time isnt good but he can get a read. id assume that in most situations ganon's will try to cover tech in place and tech roll in front of him since sideB and wizkick (though downB might be shieldable if you tech roll) cover tech in place and tech in front. because they can hit 2 options a ganon player will most likely go for that as opposed to sideB behind to cover the one option of tech behind.

 

[CORY]

fox hits the ground 2 frames before you recover from your aerial flame choke animation. this isn't enough for him to shine you (he has to do his tech animation, which is longer than whatever your followup would be), but he'll be invincible through some stuff, due to the tech invuln frames. you basically just have to hard read on fox, no matter which flame choke you catch him with.

on the ground, i doubt you can shine ganon if you tech, but i can't confirm. i'd have to check that (and if ganon can be shined out of his own flame choke, i will drown strongbad in my salt).

 

[Taytertot]

oh ok. you sure the startup frames of grounded flame choke is short enough that fox cant tech and have a frame to throw out shine considering that hed be 2 frames into his tech by the time the grounded flame choke starts?

Edit: I dont know how long techs are for fox but grounded flame choke takes 15 frames of start up and since fox hits the ground 2 frames before the grounded flame choke would begin, fox's tech would have to be 16 frames in total for fox to do a frame perfect shine before ganon's gfc which i doubt anyones tech is that short though i cant say for sure.
I wonder though if tech rolling away and in front of ganon would give fox enough time since the flame choke has to take more frames to travel and doesnt grab with ganon's actual hand (which would allow fox to shine ganon's hand before getting grabbed)?
Ive played ganon dittos once and was shielding as the other ganon started aerial flame choke and I shield grabbed him well after the startup frames so its possible that fox may have enough time (it was an instinctive reaction that i tend to do too much so i cant say that i meant to do it which would have been much cooler haha).

 

[CORY]

oh ok. you sure the startup frames of grounded flame choke is short enough that fox cant tech and have a frame to throw out shine considering that hed be 2 frames into his tech by the time the grounded flame choke starts?

Edit: I dont know how long techs are for fox but grounded flame choke takes 15 frames of start up and since fox hits the ground 2 frames before the grounded flame choke would begin, fox's tech would have to be 16 frames in total for fox to do a frame perfect shine before ganon's gfc which i doubt anyones tech is that short though i cant say for sure.
I wonder though if tech rolling away and in front of ganon would give fox enough time since the flame choke has to take more frames to travel and doesnt grab with ganon's actual hand (which would allow fox to shine ganon's hand before getting grabbed)?
Ive played ganon dittos once and was shielding as the other ganon started aerial flame choke and I shield grabbed him well after the startup frames so its possible that fox may have enough time (it was an instinctive reaction that i tend to do too much so i cant say that i meant to do it which would have been much cooler haha).

hrmmm... ok, looking around online (my wii isn't hooked up right now and my gf has claimed the living room, so hooking it up won't be an option for a while : p) i've found:
ganon's tech in place is 26 frames.
bowser's is 26.
gnw's is 27.
mario's is 26.
pika's is... 30?
squirtle's is 26.

couldn't find fox's but i saw you were looking, as well.

and that's enough for me >< looks like they'll probably all sit at around 26-30 frames, for tech in place. that's enough time for you to grounded flame choke on a hard read and catch them.

i know you can catch fox out of his tech rolls with grounded flame choke, because i do that myself a lot, but all i have is anecdotal evidence in that regard.

 

[Taytertot]

hrmmm... ok, looking around online (my wii isn't hooked up right now and my gf has claimed the living room, so hooking it up won't be an option for a while : p) i've found:
ganon's tech in place is 26 frames.
bowser's is 26.
gnw's is 27.
mario's is 26.
pika's is... 30?
squirtle's is 26.

couldn't find fox's but i saw you were looking, as well.

and that's enough for me >< looks like they'll probably all sit at around 26-30 frames, for tech in place. that's enough time for you to grounded flame choke on a hard read and catch them.

i know you can catch fox out of his tech rolls with grounded flame choke, because i do that myself a lot, but all i have is anecdotal evidence in that regard.

fair enough. sounds like theres no way that fox would be able to avoid it off a gfc read. though maybe if the ganon tried to gfc off of reaction then there might be enough time.

 

[CORY]

yeah. i don't think you can actually do anything off reaction to gfc, you just have to go for covering as many options as possible on your hard reads.

 

[CORY]

so, lunchables dropped some opinion knowledge on a silly question i asked him:

I think Toon Link/Roy might be the best way to cover matchups in PM that doesn't use Fox. Toon Link beats nearly every PM character and Roy is great vs the melee cast. The only really problematic matchup is Rob, and there are some 5-5 with other vets but thats still really good. I don't exactly know ganons MU spreadsheet, but if he sucks vs most PM characters then toonlink might actually be a good choice, Roy for melee.

link, in case you wanted context or something

so, with this said, what set of characters do you guys think ganon has worse problems with? pm/brawl characters, or the more melee-ish ones?

 

[Taytertot]

so, lunchables dropped some opinion knowledge on a silly question i asked him:


link, in case you wanted context or something

so, with this said, what set of characters do you guys think ganon has worse problems with? pm/brawl characters, or the more melee-ish ones?

hm thats hard to say. the melee top tiers have been a consideration for ganon for so long that most people will more or less know what to do in those MUs since melee ganon strats apply and have been under development for years. But whether or not ganon actually has an easier time with them is hard to say because the top ganon players in melee still had to make a lot of good reads and play on point to win those MUs.

from the brawl characters id assume that ZSS, Toon Link, maybe Pit, Sonic, possibly Ike, maybe Ivysaur and Olimar are not in ganon's favor by at least small margins but im kinda guessing since i have played very little of any of these MUs. Id imagine wario, squirtle and charizard to be at least even if not in ganon's favor. But many of these could be very wrong.

 

[CORY]

Wario just feels miserable to me, tbh. His aerial weave for baiting and command grab mixups just seem to stop Gabon's game plan effectively.

I might just have a mental block against wario, though. I also just completely fall for almost every shoulderbash ever...

 

[Bazkip]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Ganon loses all the matchups you mentioned that you thought he wins lol.
Totally constructive discussion woo.
I can elaborate more tomorrow or something, it's late and I'm tired.

 

[Taytertot]

Wario just feels miserable to me, tbh. His aerial weave for baiting and command grab mixups just seem to stop Gabon's game plan effectively.

I might just have a mental block against wario, though. I also just completely fall for almost every shoulderbash ever...

maybe youre right. im not sure but my reasoning was that while wario can weave really well, his options are all very short range so i figure with a somewhat defensive gameplan (throwing out retreating fair, nair, uair and bair mostly, with some ftilts) ganon should be able to wall wario, but maybe its not that easy. I might just be underestimating wario as a character. If the wario stays more grounded with approaches then dtilt should work out really well but i think most warios will SH approach which ganons fair outranges especially if youre jumping back a bit. it seems like a match up that ganon wouldnt want to stay in shield for much or roll since wario can dance around if the ganon isnt mobile. SH uair i imagine would stuff a lot of warios aerial approach game but to be safe ganon should use it while retreating. but all of that is just theory talk so i could be wrong.

Yeah I'm pretty sure Ganon loses all the matchups you mentioned that you thought he wins lol.
Totally constructive discussion woo.
I can elaborate more tomorrow or something, it's late and I'm tired.

i would like to hear you elaborate when youve got time. im fairly confident that squirtle is either even or slightly in ganon's favor since ganon has really good range on him and can CC a lot of squirtle's approaches. ftilt and dtilt can blow up a lot of squirtles stuff and sideB i believe beats all of squirtles armored moves except maybe shell shift dsmash.

Charizard im not very sure about. hes another character that i underestimate often since there are so rarely good charizard players. But regardless of my underestimation of the character, i feel that it wouldnt be that bad an MU in theory.

 

[CORY]

Zard feel at least 50 50 to me, but I have limited zard experience.

Your wario theories seem sound. I very well just st might have a mental block for him I need to push through...

 

[Bazkip]

maybe youre right. im not sure but my reasoning was that while wario can weave really well, his options are all very short range so i figure with a somewhat defensive gameplan (throwing out retreating fair, nair, uair and bair mostly, with some ftilts) ganon should be able to wall wario, but maybe its not that easy. I might just be underestimating wario as a character. If the wario stays more grounded with approaches then dtilt should work out really well but i think most warios will SH approach which ganons fair outranges especially if youre jumping back a bit. it seems like a match up that ganon wouldnt want to stay in shield for much or roll since wario can dance around if the ganon isnt mobile. SH uair i imagine would stuff a lot of warios aerial approach game but to be safe ganon should use it while retreating. but all of that is just theory talk so i could be wrong.

i would like to hear you elaborate when youve got time. im fairly confident that squirtle is either even or slightly in ganon's favor since ganon has really good range on him and can CC a lot of squirtle's approaches. ftilt and dtilt can blow up a lot of squirtles stuff and sideB i believe beats all of squirtles armored moves except maybe shell shift dsmash.

Charizard im not very sure about. hes another character that i underestimate often since there are so rarely good charizard players. But regardless of my underestimation of the character, i feel that it wouldnt be that bad an MU in theory.

As Cory mentioned Wario has his incredible aerial mobility, so trying to swat him away like that is a lot more complicated than it sounds. He can use it to move in and out to bait, or he can be doing an attack while he's moving in our space (nair and fair are super quick) to hit us first and still be safe if he misses. He still has to respect our range but he definitely has the tools to work around it. He also wins the punish game since he's a heavy floaty so comboing him is difficult, whereas he has absolutely no difficulty getting long combo strings on us. We have to fish for hits to get him offstage/kill him but he can combo into his finishers to do the same. I also believe the edgeguarding game is in his favour. So he has a much easier time racking up damage and killing us.

If a Squirtle is playing aggressively then yeah he'll get bopped easily, but any good player should know or quickly realize that's not how the matchup should be played (I don't think aggressive play is really part of Squirtle's playstyle anyways). Squirtle is a very small and incredibly mobile character, there's extremely little Ganon can do to try to pin him down. He can easily dance around our threat zone forcing us to do something and then punishing. We can't go on the offensive against him since his mobility and bubble can shut that down pretty easily. Between his bair and bubble he shouldn't have any trouble edeguarding us either, though dealing with his recovery can be difficult. Thankfully he's light so he dies easily. But there's not a whole lot we can do to get hits in on him.

Charizard is faster than Ganon with more range and disjoint. We have to stay grounded against him because his anti-air game is impeccable, but he can also edge us out in the footsie battle with his jab/ftilt/dtilt that have more range than ours and his superior movement speed. There's also RAR nair which I think we just kind of have to respect. Zards recovery can be dealt with but if he's able to recover high then there's not a whole lot we can do. Meanwhile he has a myriad of options for prevent us from getting back to the stage from anywhere. They both punish each other hard but it just seems as though Charizard has a slightly easier time opening Ganon up than vice versa.

I don't think any of these matchups are necessarily awful, they're definitely doable, but slightly or somewhat in the opponents favour. Maybe I just have a negative outlook on Ganon's matchups though.

 

[Idostuff]

Is there any MU that you guys think Ganon actually wins by a good amount? There are plenty that i think he goes even in, loses by a lot, or are singlty in/against his favor, but none that i can look at and say "oh yeah Ganon recks char X"

 

[CORY]

Nope. Odds thinks bowser is in Canon's favor pretty strongly, iirc. I can see it, in theory, but there's not really much play proof for it yet.

 

[Bazkip]

Ice Climbers got wrecked by Ganon in Melee and it's only going to be worse for them in PM.

 

[Taytertot]

As Cory mentioned Wario has his incredible aerial mobility, so trying to swat him away like that is a lot more complicated than it sounds. He can use it to move in and out to bait, or he can be doing an attack while he's moving in our space (nair and fair are super quick) to hit us first and still be safe if he misses. He still has to respect our range but he definitely has the tools to work around it. He also wins the punish game since he's a heavy floaty so comboing him is difficult, whereas he has absolutely no difficulty getting long combo strings on us. We have to fish for hits to get him offstage/kill him but he can combo into his finishers to do the same. I also believe the edgeguarding game is in his favour. So he has a much easier time racking up damage and killing us.

If a Squirtle is playing aggressively then yeah he'll get bopped easily, but any good player should know or quickly realize that's not how the matchup should be played (I don't think aggressive play is really part of Squirtle's playstyle anyways). Squirtle is a very small and incredibly mobile character, there's extremely little Ganon can do to try to pin him down. He can easily dance around our threat zone forcing us to do something and then punishing. We can't go on the offensive against him since his mobility and bubble can shut that down pretty easily. Between his bair and bubble he shouldn't have any trouble edeguarding us either, though dealing with his recovery can be difficult. Thankfully he's light so he dies easily. But there's not a whole lot we can do to get hits in on him.

Charizard is faster than Ganon with more range and disjoint. We have to stay grounded against him because his anti-air game is impeccable, but he can also edge us out in the footsie battle with his jab/ftilt/dtilt that have more range than ours and his superior movement speed. There's also RAR nair which I think we just kind of have to respect. Zards recovery can be dealt with but if he's able to recover high then there's not a whole lot we can do. Meanwhile he has a myriad of options for prevent us from getting back to the stage from anywhere. They both punish each other hard but it just seems as though Charizard has a slightly easier time opening Ganon up than vice versa.

I don't think any of these matchups are necessarily awful, they're definitely doable, but slightly or somewhat in the opponents favour. Maybe I just have a negative outlook on Ganon's matchups though.

huh ok ive got good points there. maybe the squirtle player i play against needs to improve more. my reasoning for thinking that squirtle isnt too hard is because while he can dance around a lot, i feel that squirtle will be the first to lose patience in the MU and try to go in which seems somewhat easy to deal with if youre playing on a stage with platforms. generally id imagine standing under a platform so that you can easily do a retreating FH nair and ledge cancel on the platform above and then decide whether to DJ WL back on the platform or do something like falling uair to stuff squirtle. I agree that squirtles game shouldnt be aggressive but i think if ganon plays kinda safe and mobile with empty hop retreating WL fakes etc. then the squirtle player will be the first to commit hard and ganon can stuff out any attack squirtle has if ganon knows its coming (especially squirtles sideB). I feel like uair is great at stuffing squirtles aerials. if squirtle jumps in then idk if squirtle can punish a SH retreating uair unless the uair whiffs without squirtle having to DJ. But maybe youre right.

I can see where youre coming from with the other two MU's since charizard can kinda force ganon to approach, which is a terrible idea vs charizard. and wario can combos ganon like crazy. but i somewhat disagree on ganon having trouble comboing wario. id agree that on a stage with few to no platforms then its hard to combo wario, but places like warioware, or battlefield i find that using the platforms makes combos pretty solid and while wario can edgeguard ganon pretty easy, i dont find it difficult to do the same to wario. dair near the ledge is pretty good if wario recovers low and if wario recovers high then he better not have to use sideB or upB to get back cause those are super punishable as long as you give yourself space to react. Still i can see why it might not be in ganons favor but i feel it wouldnt be worse then 55:45 in warios favor.

Nope. Odds thinks bowser is in Canon's favor pretty strongly, iirc. I can see it, in theory, but there's not really much play proof for it yet.

i could see that being true. its just not an MU that happens much. bowser has to play safer then ganon would since ganon's nair would cover a lot of bowsers options in neutral.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Plus ganon can flame choke bowser then techchase with flame choke to infinity on reaction.

why

 

[Idostuff]

Since when can you flame choke regrab tech options on reaction? I thought it was always a guessing game.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Against bowser you can do it on reaction. If he techs just flame choke toward him, it'll work. If he doesn't tech, just jab or something (wiz kick works also)

 

[Bazkip]

bruh
It's about Squirtle but should still apply.

Techchasing with choke on reaction is not a thing. Does not matter how bad Squirtle's tech rolls are, because the move is too slow for something like that. It has too much startup to be waiting to see if they teched in the first place to commit to the side-b while also getting the tech stand in time, can't allow enough time to tell the tech F/B animations apart and pick the direction on the side-b while also getting the tech stand in time, getup stand is just plain unreactable by itself because you don't know when they will get up and the animation doesn't really do anything at all until frame 6, etc.

Awful tech rolls doesn't let you choice react to the getup stand in 8 frames. It's possible to cover both tech rolls and the stand with one side-b input if you know which side of Ganon's TopN they will land on because the roll through will push into Ganon and not go far enough behind to not get caught by the lean back before becoming vulnerable which is pretty silly looking... but you're still committing to the side-b before being able to confirm that they didn't miss the tech to be able to get the stand with a frame 16-18 move to hit someone directly next to you, and slight DI means you can't tell which side they landed on until they begin separating, which is again too late at that point for the stand.

@ T Taytertot whoever gets impatient first depends on the people themselves not the characters.

 

[Idostuff]

i think squirtle beats Ganon, he is impossible to hit/grab, and edgeguards you really well.

 

[Taytertot]

bruh
It's about Squirtle but should still apply.



@ T Taytertot whoever gets impatient first depends on the people themselves not the characters.

i know but i guess i think that ganon players or slow heavy character mains in general should be used to having to play patiently and should be good at waiting out the opponent for the right opportunity rather then being the first to commit. Or at least ideally that should be the case.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I feel like I've actually done it on reaction to people before, though, and had it done to me... (talking about bowser)
Maybe/hopefully it's not legit.

Squirtle doesn't seem bad to me, just don't grab often because it misses most of the time

 

[Taytertot]

most people usually seem to react between 10 and 12 frames give or take and sideB has 15 frames of start up which would take a total of 25 frames at best and bowser has a tech in place of 26 frames and a tech roll of 40 frames so its actually possible to do on reaction i suppose if you have good reaction time. but if your off on your timing bowser will definitely grounded upB you so if youre really sure you know where bowser will tech then a read is safer.

 

[CORY]

i think, because of bowser's size, you can do stupid option coverage with flamechoke, due to ganon's step back at the start of the move and how the grab actually starts on his hand when it's behind him (all of this is iirc).

 

[Scuba Steve]

yeah, tech chasing boozer is less bout covering which options he's taking and instead abusing the fact that he's fat as ****

 

[Idostuff]

I think Bowser gets rekt by Ganon. Chaingrabs for days, easy stops, huge target for side B and Up-B OOS.
After playing my roomate a bunch who mains Olimar, i can say that we lose that one pretty bad. We have no easy way to get Pikmin off us, and Oli is hard to hit like squirtle is. Plus its easy for Oli to get his best move, Dair, on our linear recovery.