Floating to the Top v3.6: The Ganondorf Match Up Thread

[TimYo]

For whatever reason I've been struggling horribly with this matchup not having been put against a good ness very often. Are there any exploits to this MU or is it just hard?

 

[Boiko]

CC Grab. Down throw chain grab into up smash at around 70-80%. Don't get caught off stage. </match up>

 

[Bazkip]

CC Grab. Down throw chain grab into up smash at around 70-80%. Don't get caught off stage. </match up>

I'm almost positive dthrow doesn't chaingrab Ness. Maybe a regrab or two starting at 0%.

 

[Boiko]

I'm almost positive dthrow doesn't chaingrab Ness. Maybe a regrab or two starting at 0%.

It for sure combos into up smash at early kill percentages though.

 

[Bazkip]

It for sure combos into up smash at early kill percentages though.

You seemed to be saying we could chaingrab till upsmash kill percents. Yeah dthrow upsmash is a thing, but chaingrabs are not part of it.

 

[Boiko]

You seemed to be saying we could chaingrab till upsmash kill percents. Yeah dthrow upsmash is a thing, but chaingrabs are not part of it.

Ah whoops, yeah. I think the CG lasts until like, 20-30 percent on Ness. Let me know if I'm mistaken.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

So, 3.6.

That nair, amirite?

 

[CORY]

it seems to be a pretty bad nerf for anything related to neutral, but is functionally the same, otherwise.

which is a pretty bad nerf for ganon : / that nair did so much.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I've noticed that when I nair into short characters on the ground, I'll occasionally miss the second kick.

Probably my own fault, since I'm not the most used to everything. Still though, **** short characters.

 

[Jazzy Jamboree]

it seems to be a pretty bad nerf for anything related to neutral, but is functionally the same, otherwise.

which is a pretty bad nerf for ganon : / that nair did so much.

I don't know. I've noticed myself not even using nair anymore now that if feels so much worse. People like Snake's nair have a similar trait where the hitbox isn't out as long as his legs are, but with Ganon it's much longer and feels like overkill. All of Snake's hitboxes are out for 3 frames for each of the 3 kicks, Ganon's are out for 2 frames for 2 kicks.

Honestly, it would be really nice if we got back even just 1 frame of the late hit flubs. 8 active frames -> 6 isn't so bad compared to 8-> 4.

I've noticed that when I nair into short characters on the ground, I'll occasionally miss the second kick.

Probably my own fault, since I'm not the most used to everything. Still though, **** short characters.

Every time I miss a grab because of a short character in some kind of lower animation like gnw's DA I want to cry.

 

[CORY]

I don't know. I've noticed myself not even using nair anymore now that if feels so much worse.

i haven't played much since 3.6, but i can't imagine something like dthrow-nair on a mid-damage semifloaty not working anymore. that's a pretty good sequence, dealing about 31 if both hits connect after the dthrow and not putting them too far away from you.

but for anything neutral related, it's probably pretty trash now. a 2 frame hitbox with a 12 frame gap before the next 2 frame hitbox is pretty abysmal...

 

[Taytertot]

im a bit curious as to why ganon needed a nerf at all. Even with the buff in 3.5 it didnt feel like ganon was more then mid-tier to me. Maybe there were MU's that went pretty bad for certain characters against ganon but i cant think of which MU's those would be.

i guess the reflect is better but i feel that a nerf to a pivotal move like nair is worse then the buff he got for the reflect.

 

[Bazkip]

Honestly, it would be really nice if we got back even just 1 frame of the late hit flubs. 8 active frames -> 6 isn't so bad compared to 8-> 4.

It used to be 12 active frames

im a bit curious as to why ganon needed a nerf at all. Even with the buff in 3.5 it didnt feel like ganon was more then mid-tier to me. Maybe there were MU's that went pretty bad for certain characters against ganon but i cant think of which MU's those would be.

i guess the reflect is better but i feel that a nerf to a pivotal move like nair is worse then the buff he got for the reflect.

Ganon didn't need a nerf, but nair did. Let's not kid ourselves, 3.5 nair was pretty silly. I don't think it's particularly unexpected to see it changed. What is surprising though is the lack of anything to compensate, because, just as you said, the cape buff is nice but not particularly significant.

I had a big write up on this topic the other day in the social thread, quoting it here

Okay so after mulling it over for a couple of days I think I've realized why the PMDT made this change.

3.5 nair was a pretty darn good move. It was a solid neutral option, it was a great anti-projectile tool, it comboes and racks up damage, and is safe on block. Though not as egregious as some other tools in this game they probably thought it was a tad overcentralizing and I don't think we can truly disagree with that. Only counterpoint that can really be offered is that perhaps it's not so bad for Ganon to have a move like that. That answer is that it probably isn't, but I guess for design reasons they still decided to change it.

So what ended up happening was we sorta got it spread it. 3.6 nair still retains it's combo ability, damage and while two frames less advantage on shield it's still positive. I do kinda wish I still had the 3 frame duration of the strong hit from 3.5 rather than Melee's 2 frame duration, as it's a bit awkward to hit with (or maybe something like 2 frame strong hit 2 frame weak hit). Improvements to cape carries the anti-projectile role, which is obviously less effective but I don't think it was within the PMDT's design goals for Ganon to be able to deal with projectile pressure with such ease. Cape could still stand to be a bit better though.

So that leaves that neutral aspect which unfortunately we got nothing to compensate for that loss. I don't have much to say in that regard other than I hope they've got some ideas that they wanted to refine further before publicly implementing them.

This is all just speculation though, we'll have to wait until we either get an explanation from a PMDT member, or if we see further changes in the finalized 3.6 release.

 

[AblazedApple]

As long as I can get in an occasional read with a grab into down throw -> Nair and it still does a good chunk at earlier percents, I'm satisfied. I'm just happy Fair or Bair haven't received nerfs.

 

[CORY]

well, in theory afc is buffed, but as i said, i haven't really had a chance to test the di on it. but all that would mean is that we're more polarized into "run away REALLY hard or else ganon's gonna **** your **** like a *****." metas, which is kinda the wrong direction?

i dunno, i'm gonna try to make sense of some stuff odds was talking about (abuse dash attack more, float out of sh-bair as mixups, being the two i mostly remember) and see if it seems to work well.

 

[bubbaking]

I don't know. I've noticed myself not even using nair anymore now that if feels so much worse. People like Snake's nair have a similar trait where the hitbox isn't out as long as his legs are, but with Ganon it's much longer and feels like overkill. All of Snake's hitboxes are out for 3 frames for each of the 3 kicks, Ganon's are out for 2 frames for 2 kicks.

Honestly, it would be really nice if we got back even just 1 frame of the late hit flubs. 8 active frames -> 6 isn't so bad compared to 8-> 4.

According to the patch list, regarding Snake's nair, "All hitboxes now last 4 frames each, instead of being 4-4-3," not 3 frames.

im a bit curious as to why ganon needed a nerf at all. Even with the buff in 3.5 it didnt feel like ganon was more then mid-tier to me. Maybe there were MU's that went pretty bad for certain characters against ganon but i cant think of which MU's those would be.

Truthfully, chars that lost badly against Ganon (Bowser?) didn't lose badly because of nair. They lost badly because they got grabbed too easily and CG'd too hard and/or they were too heavily out-ranged and overpowered by Ganon's regular moveset. Even with the nair nerf, those MUs will stay the same unless the other char got some buffs that addressed this particular MU.

well, in theory afc is buffed, but as i said, i haven't really had a chance to test the di on it. but all that would mean is that we're more polarized into "run away REALLY hard or else ganon's gonna **** your **** like a *****." metas, which is kinda the wrong direction?

i dunno, i'm gonna try to make sense of some stuff odds was talking about (abuse dash attack more, float out of sh-bair as mixups, being the two i mostly remember) and see if it seems to work well.

Meh...I don't think that's the "wrong direction," per se. Call me old-fashioned, but I think Ganon works well as an extremely hard-hitting truck that you just want to stay away from. Thus, it makes sense that his neutral game has problems. I just wish that he had justifying rewards once he actually got in, and that's why I feel that a nair that's plus on block is perfectly fair.

Yo, I've been doing both of those things (DAs and SH bair float mix-ups), and they've been working out extremely well. DA has some nice burst mobility to it, and it can kill floaties at high %'s. SH bair floats add another layer to his mindgames, and they let you turnaround so you can nair, uair, or DJ fair as a mix-up.

 

[Yallo42]

What do you guys think about the DK matchup? His bair and dtilt are a little annoying, but besides that I think ganon does pretty well. Edgeguarding is easy because ganon's bair beats DK's up B. Ganon probably does better on stages with good platforms for wavelands. DK runs faster and has longer grab range, but he has no projectile so ganon can be defensive more easily, and DK's size makes it easy to combo and space bairs.

 

[bubbaking]

I think DK is extremely scary to fight against (perhaps he thinks the same of us?). He's much faster than us, but he hits and combos us just as hard, and everyone in the cast gets to edgeguard us. (>.<) As you said, edgeguarding is fairly easy. We can outrange upB and we can even come down from above and stomp it easily. I believe we also get good CGs into combos off of grabs. The scary part is the neutral game. Getting a clean hit or grab on DK is hard and he can punish whiffed attempts easily with his own grab which can equal a ton of damage or even death.

I think Ganon always universally does better with plats to use, but DK is also extremely efficient at covering platforms.

 

[Taytertot]

If DK is facing ganon in the air then i think ganon can outspace him pretty easy since DK's nair doesnt beat ganon's nair in range and DK's fair is too slow and can easily be reacted to in order to punish before or after. DK's ground game is better then ganon's due to having similar startup speed on their normals with DK having quite a bit more range. But i think it helps to know that in neutral DK is very likely to go for grab against shield instead of trying to rely on safe shield pressure whereas ganon has ac bair, ac nair, afc, gfc and grab to mix up shield pressure/punishes. my assumption is that despite DK having the ability to sit back and try to space ganon out, DK is going to be the more likely character for approaching in the MU. Im not sure why i feel this way but for some reason i feel that ganon's defensive game is better then DK's. maybe its that DK's normals seem more laggy and therefore dont allow DK the safety of throwing them out preemptively to cover ganon's possible approaches. Ganon on the other hand can preemptively throw out ftilt, jab and maybe dtilt with relative safety to cover DK's approaches. I might be completely wrong though.

 

[Yallo42]

@ T Taytertot Ganon's nair and bair are also very useful for defence. Actually I think ganon will need to approach more often because DK can camp and charge donkey punch (or whatever that move is called lol). DK's size is very helpful to ganon because it lets us hit with short hop bair. Also if DK is in the air I think ganon can easily hit with uair because of DK's slow dair.
It seems like ganon's strategy in this MU is to pressure DK, and DK's strategy is to dash dance and punish with grab. Then when either gets a hit, it can lead to huge combos.

 

[bubbaking]

If DK is facing ganon in the air then i think ganon can outspace him pretty easy since DK's nair doesnt beat ganon's nair in range and DK's fair is too slow and can easily be reacted to in order to punish before or after. DK's ground game is better then ganon's due to having similar startup speed on their normals with DK having quite a bit more range. But i think it helps to know that in neutral DK is very likely to go for grab against shield instead of trying to rely on safe shield pressure whereas ganon has ac bair, ac nair, afc, gfc and grab to mix up shield pressure/punishes. my assumption is that despite DK having the ability to sit back and try to space ganon out, DK is going to be the more likely character for approaching in the MU. Im not sure why i feel this way but for some reason i feel that ganon's defensive game is better then DK's. maybe its that DK's normals seem more laggy and therefore dont allow DK the safety of throwing them out preemptively to cover ganon's possible approaches. Ganon on the other hand can preemptively throw out ftilt, jab and maybe dtilt with relative safety to cover DK's approaches. I might be completely wrong though.

Honestly, this looks mostly wrong or irrelevant/arbitrary to me. DKs will mostly remain grounded so they can maintain that Marth-level dash dance. His nair is a much more reliable hitbox than Ganon's nair, which isn't even that good at keeping opponents out, and he can also RAR bair so that which way he's facing isn't a problem. DK's ground game isn't only better because his normals have more range. It's better because DK is faster, has grounded moves that combo much better (especially his jab), and he has access to a much better SHFFL game. You also are failing to recognize/acknowledge that DK has a good burst option in his DA which can't easily be reacted to and can also be initiated from platforms. As such, he can remain very unpredictable during his DD and his time on plats. It's honestly not a good practice to assume that DKs are 'likely' to go for something, when something else is a better option, simply because some mid or low-level DKs do that (although it helps to be aware of the possibility).

 

[smokebomb12]

My my what useful information we have here.

 

[Taytertot]

Honestly, this looks mostly wrong or irrelevant/arbitrary to me. DKs will mostly remain grounded so they can maintain that Marth-level dash dance. His nair is a much more reliable hitbox than Ganon's nair, which isn't even that good at keeping opponents out, and he can also RAR bair so that which way he's facing isn't a problem. DK's ground game isn't only better because his normals have more range. It's better because DK is faster, has grounded moves that combo much better (especially his jab), and he has access to a much better SHFFL game. You also are failing to recognize/acknowledge that DK has a good burst option in his DA which can't easily be reacted to and can also be initiated from platforms. As such, he can remain very unpredictable during his DD and his time on plats. It's honestly not a good practice to assume that DKs are 'likely' to go for something, when something else is a better option, simply because some mid or low-level DKs do that (although it helps to be aware of the possibility).

ok fair enough i did figure that i could be very wrong.

is it true to say that ganon's nair and bair are safer on shield then any of DK's attacks though? if so i feel that that is a pretty big advantage.

while i agree with you that DK is definitely going to try to stay grounded and that DK's ground game is very superior to ganon's, i would not say that its completely arbitrary that ganon can punish a lot of DK's aerial options. DK's nair might be much better then ganon's and come out surprisingly fast but, if DK does approach from the air then based on the direction he's facing you pretty much know what he's going to use. if DK faces forward then his only good option is going to be nair because fair is too slow and uair/dair dont have useful hitboxes for approaching. If DK faces away then he has to rely on bair for the same reasons. That knowledge in itself is a huge advantage to have because once the DK player jumps they have already practically handed you a punish. Again i know that DK is going to stay grounded but that doesnt mean that over the course of a match a DK play isnt going to try to mixup their approach with an aerial and so knowing whats going to happen when you see it isnt that irrelevant.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Hey Ganons, mind explaining your power in a MU spread for the Community MU Chart?

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Hey Gannon mains! Since, 3.6 I've picked up MK and my training partner plays Gannon. What are y'alls feelings on the matchup?

I feel neutral is in MK's favor, he can bait and punish Gannon very well, however, I don't think MK runs Gannon over in neutral since Gannon has a lot of range and priority and my training partner is extremely good at spacing. Both characters punish each other to crazy levels, Gannon has a chaingrab almost to death and actually edgeguards MK really well, MK has upair strings for days on Gannon, DThrow techchase into Dimensional Cape, and gimps him ridiculously easy.

For stages I like to go to big stages like PS2, FD, Distant Planet, and for some reason I also seem to do well on BF, but that may just be because of my personal love of the stage.

Anyhow, I feel the matchup is fairly even, but my training partner swear it is awful for gannon, however he is extremely prone to matchup salt clouding his vision, I just wanted to know what y'all think. Thanks

 

[CORY]

Mk seems like marth in neutral, which means mk has almost no reason to overcommit during dd-ing, thus disallowing ganon from starting anything.

He's also short, making it really annoying to deal with him. The transcendent sword also makes it obstinate to power through stuff in neutral, since it'll either always win or trade, and both of those are annoying at best or bad at worst.

I feel like neutral matters most here, since mk's speed and dash dance does so much against ganon. That alone makes it seem like a miserable matchup for ganon, sincyou're waiting on mk to make a mistake without a real strong way to force it out of him.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I would put it at 60-40 personally

 

[Lafungo]

I think you're Gannon banned.

Also, what CORY said.

I don't think I believe you on Ganon edgeguarding MK well, given how many options MK has to come back on stage.

 

[CORY]

IMO, it's worse than 60-40, closer to 70-30. Being able to dd ganon and react to him full jump floating with either more dd or a shffl Nair is really rough. Mk has no reason to commit to anything until ganon does so first, then he can bait and punish pretty roughly.

It's kind of like marth v ganon. If marth plays dd properly in neutral, ganon shouldn't win. He has a faster jump and faster aerials with disjoint and less end lag and overall commitment. Of ganon does anything and marth is respecting spacing, it should be reacted and punished. That doesn't mean it's unwinnable, but ganon doesn't have a way to force marthto commit well.

Mk dd's as well as marth, his sword is longer (lack of arm makes the actual range slightly shorter, but important movest such as dtilt are very close in actual range), and he low profiles more stuff by just existing. So, the same issues ganon has with marth, he has with mk, but also has added nonclankability, moves just not working as well, due to height, and better air to ground conversions on mk's part.

Punish matters, but marth is also in a great punish class for ganon, whereas mk is going to be more dependent on tech reads to get stuff started early. The chaingrab is relevant, but it's also difficult to get that started with mk, due to height and neutral overall.

Sorry if this is disjointed sounding, I'm on my phone about to go into work.

 

[bubbaking]

Ganon:MK is terrible for Ganon. I'm gonna put it at 35:65 (although I prefer to say -2). I play both chars a lot, but I love to play MK against Ganons. CORY already covered most of this, so I'll just point out a few specifics as well as a few things I think he missed. MK's nair comes out on frame 3. That means that MK can twitch-react to most of Ganon's viable approaching options with a SHFFL nair...or he can just space bair and Ganon has to absolutely respect that. However, the real reason I personally feel so comfortable against Ganon with MK isn't how much MK dominates neutral, it's how badly Ganon responds to MK pressure and how easily MK gets out of anything even remotely related to pressure. MK has these stupid set-ups known as frame-traps where everything he does is fast enough that, when spaced, you can't really get out unless you got the defensive read. Whether he's dtilting you, or sharking below your plat with uairs, or pressuring your back with staggered ftilts, he's got the advantage the whole time and Ganon's OoS options suck at handling it. He's basically forced to roll and MK is excellent at punishing rolls. Meanwhile, MK has some pretty fast, long rolls, really good OoS aerials, and SL which can be edge-cancelled if there's a plat above him, so good luck trying to keep him pinned once you finally manage to put the pressure on him. This huge disparity between the two characters' neutral and pressure games is why MK's huge combo potential on Ganon is so devastating and Ganon's combos on MK aren't very relevant. Heck, MK even gets to be lazy and throw out random DAs if he's tired of waiting for openings and if he does it close to Ganon, it hits him if he tried to do anything other than shield because that move is active forever, but then even if Ganon shields, it also crosses up shields so MK's relatively fine and Ganon's relatively not.

Oh yeah, and MK's boost grab is pretty disgusting also, if you haven't already lost hope in your shield.

That being said, I disagree that MK recovers well against Ganon. Being a fastfaller with only 3 air jumps is actually pretty hard. Drill Rush doesn't bend much, and Mach Tornado is very punishable, easy to follow, and doesn't sweetspot the ledge. Shuttle Loop and Dimensional Cape are his two best options, but SL is fairly easy to trade with once he's gliding and DC has very limited range (although it is, by far, the most annoying option to deal with when he has it available). Ganon can kinda just throw out fairs, bairs, and uairs and he'll cover pretty much all of MK's options if he can't just get the ledge (which Ganon can still cover).

 

[Yallo42]

Ganon can chain grab MK past 100%...
100%
That, combined with MK's very low weight, means chain grab into bair can KO from 0% with good stage position. I haven't played against a good MK, but I really find it hard to believe a MU where you can 0 death from one grab is really that horrible. Yeah, MK obviously has WAY better movement, pressure, Oos options, etc. but he's a fast faller with one of the lowest weights in the game, so that should be expected.
It's another one of those dumb MUs where one character has far superior neutral, but the other has absurd punishes if they make one mistake.
By the way, MK doesn't have a low crouch like kirby and jigglypuff, so he can't crouch under grab or jab. Also, ganon's jab and dtilt seems to set up for grab nicely.
Question, does MK have a good way to deal with crouch cancel? Not trying to be sarcastic, I really don't know.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Ganon can chain grab MK past 100%...
100%
That, combined with MK's very low weight, means chain grab into bair can KO from 0% with good stage position. I haven't played against a good MK, but I really find it hard to believe a MU where you can 0 death from one grab is really that horrible. Yeah, MK obviously has WAY better movement, pressure, Oos options, etc. but he's a fast faller with one of the lowest weights in the game, so that should be expected.
It's another one of those dumb MUs where one character has far superior neutral, but the other has absurd punishes if they make one mistake.
By the way, MK doesn't have a low crouch like kirby and jigglypuff, so he can't crouch under grab or jab. Also, ganon's jab and dtilt seems to set up for grab nicely.
Question, does MK have a good way to deal with crouch cancel? Not trying to be sarcastic, I really don't know.

Boost Grab is really good vs crouch cancel, nair and dair are pretty good and dtilt is ok.

Also thanks to all you guys, this has been a really well done discussion, very logical and smart. Great character board!!!

 

[CORY]

Ganon can chain grab MK past 100%...
100%
That, combined with MK's very low weight, means chain grab into bair can KO from 0% with good stage position. I haven't played against a good MK, but I really find it hard to believe a MU where you can 0 death from one grab is really that horrible. Yeah, MK obviously has WAY better movement, pressure, Oos options, etc. but he's a fast faller with one of the lowest weights in the game, so that should be expected.
It's another one of those dumb MUs where one character has far superior neutral, but the other has absurd punishes if they make one mistake.

well, mk gets to do absurd stuff right back to us, making the matchup revolve heavily around the neutral portion. gg, ganon sitting in a perfect weight/fall speed class for a lot of the cast to combo along with having a larger frame : /

By the way, MK doesn't have a low crouch like kirby and jigglypuff, so he can't crouch under grab or jab. Also, ganon's jab and dtilt seems to set up for grab nicely.

well, then, i consider myself corrected. i haven't played against too many mk's, so i was probably misremembering the crouch part while using stuff i picked up talking with umbreon the other day to fill in blanks.

Question, does MK have a good way to deal with crouch cancel? Not trying to be sarcastic, I really don't know.

as smaug said, boost grab's pretty rad for mk. i don't know if he can outright space outside of our good cc options with any normal approach options (only thing i can think of would be dtilt, but i think ours is longer. his might be fast enough to beat our startup, but i doubt it. i also don't think mk uses dash-pivot/crouch-dtilt as an approach...), but he also usually doesn't approach directly and aims more for setting up a bad situation and baiting out a commitment, which is a rough endeavor for ganon to beat.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

well, mk gets to do absurd stuff right back to us, making the matchup revolve heavily around the neutral portion. gg, ganon sitting in a perfect weight/fall speed class for a lot of the cast to combo along with having a larger frame : /

well, then, i consider myself corrected. i haven't played against too many mk's, so i was probably misremembering the crouch part while using stuff i picked up talking with umbreon the other day to fill in blanks.

as smaug said, boost grab's pretty rad for mk. i don't know if he can outright space outside of our good cc options with any normal approach options (only thing i can think of would be dtilt, but i think ours is longer. his might be fast enough to beat our startup, but i doubt it. i also don't think mk uses dash-pivot/crouch-dtilt as an approach...), but he also usually doesn't approach directly and aims more for setting up a bad situation and baiting out a commitment, which is a rough endeavor for ganon to beat.

Actually, while I don't know if it's optimal, I tend to use crouch-dtilt a lot in neutral, it has great range and is fast, the tip hit can set up a tech chase and the Roy hitbox can set up grabs and Nairs and stuff. Most of my neutral involves DD and then mixing up between poking with Dtilt and boost grab, all the while stuffing approaches with Usmash, Nair, and Bair.

 

[Taytertot]

(had issues with my internet when trying to post this originally so i hope this isnt a double post because it didnt seem to post the first time)

By the way, MK doesn't have a low crouch like kirby and jigglypuff, so he can't crouch under grab or jab. Also, ganon's jab and dtilt seems to set up for grab nicely.

the one thing id like to point out about this is while being able to jab and grab MK without the worry of MK crouching under it is nice but grab and jab are both terrible approach options for ganon in this MU because MK's range and quick attack options are going to punish ganon before hes even in in range to get a grab or jab and MK does not by any means need to approach in order to have those options covered. The reason that MK being short still effects the MU heavily is because, while marth has a similar neutral game vs ganon ganon can actually hit marth with AC nair from neutral which is one of ganon's only safe approach option in the MU, MK on the other hand cannot be AC naired because hes too short therefore forcing ganon to do a very late Lcanceled nair which isnt safe at all since MK can simply dash in, SH nair to punish any attempt on ganon's part to try using aerial pressure in neutral. Ganon's bair has the same problem in this MU, so neutral ends up coming down to MK doesnt have to approach at all and ganon doesnt have any sort of safe approach option on MK so MK is going to win neutral hypothetically speaking.

While ganon may have a crazy CG on MK, ganon has one of the worst grab ranges in the game and again MK doesnt have to approach and can easily poke at ganon from a safe distance away from ganon's grab (or most other options ganon has since MK's DD allows him to bait out almost everything and then whiff punish) so i feel that MK would have to do something fundamentally wrong in the MU to actually get grabbed by ganon's elbow grabbox.

 

[Yallo42]

grab and jab are both terrible approach options for ganon in this MU.

Yeah, but that's true for pretty much all of Ganon's MUs. Ganon has a few moves on MK that should be able to combo into a grab though, at least on a read.

A few random ideas I had:
Ganon will probably want to stay on the ground more often. Ganon should act like a wall; stage control will be important. We want push MK to the edge and limit his space. Ftilt to stop short hop approach, jab to stop boost grab approach, CC>dtilt to stop dtilt poke. If MK goes high, Ganon's uair and bair should beat most of MK's options. Make MK respect wiz kick.

edit-spelling

 

[bubbaking]

Ganon can chain grab MK past 100%...
100%
That, combined with MK's very low weight, means chain grab into bair can KO from 0% with good stage position. I haven't played against a good MK, but I really find it hard to believe a MU where you can 0 death from one grab is really that horrible. Yeah, MK obviously has WAY better movement, pressure, Oos options, etc. but he's a fast faller with one of the lowest weights in the game, so that should be expected.
It's another one of those dumb MUs where one character has far superior neutral, but the other has absurd punishes if they make one mistake.

This is still a terrible MU for Ganon.

 

[Taytertot]

Yeah, but that's true for pretty much all of Ganon's MUs. Ganon has a few moves on MK that should be able to combo into a grab though, at least on a read.

A few random ideas I had:
Ganon will probably want to stay on the ground more often. Ganon should act like a wall; stage control will be important. We want push MK to the edge and limit his space. Ftilt to stop short hop approach, jab to stop boost grab approach, CC>dtilt to stop dtilt poke. If MK goes high, Ganon's uair and bair should beat most of MK's options. Make MK respect wiz kick.

edit-spelling

agreed. id say if MK makes the mistake of FHing then ganon should get a heavy punish.

 

[Yallo42]

@ bubbaking true, but that's mostly because falco's lazers screw up all of ganon's options.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, but Falco is probably even more fragile and doesn't have nearly as much disjoint or transcendence.

Everyone mentioned grabs, dair, and nair (has to be low, though) for beating CCs, and all those work well, but my BnB option for beating out CCing with MK is bair. It's pretty incredible; it's tied with dair as the safest move he has on shield, but it has a ton more coverage in front of him. That being said, if MK is not using these tools or is depending too much on in-fighting while Ganon's at low %'s, he could probably catch him off-guard with CC dtilt, jab, Wiz Kick, or even grab.