Flavorless Mafia II: Gave over. Who won?

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This game is frustrating arggg, I can't tell who is scum and I will feel like a gog damn moron if I vote wrong.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Only lynch I regret is Zen, that shouldn't have happened as fast as it did

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Argggg...ok so, why should I trust Maven despite less activity.

Because Mac has been more scummy when he did post at times like when he comments to Zen's comment and how he instant hammerwd Zen despite Vult saying wait.

But points show Mac has been considering and thinking, but is he trying to trick me......arggggg, I can't figure this out.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wuld vote mac first but jesus this is why I wish we lynched Soup before Zen.

 

[ranmaru]

Votecount FINAL

Red Ryu
Macman
Maven
Soup: Vult, Maven, Red Ryu
Vult Redux

Not voting:
Macman, Soup

Important Links:
Game links and Vote Counts

Notes:
N/A

*= Currently being replaced
**= V/LA

With 5 players, it takes 3 votes to lynch
The deadline for Day 3 is October 8th, at 11:59 PM.

 

[ranmaru]

soup was lynched! He was a Mafia Rolecop.

It is now Night 3. Deadline for actions is October 9th at 11:59PM EST.

 

[ranmaru]

Vult Redux, town mason, was killed night 3.

It is now Day 4. Deadline is October 15th, at 11:59PM EST.

 

[ranmaru]

Votecount 4.0

Red Ryu
Macman
Maven

Not voting:
Macman, Maven, Red Ryu

Important Links:
Game links and Vote Counts

Notes:
N/A

*= Currently being replaced
**= V/LA

With 3 players, it takes 2 votes to lynch
The deadline for Day 4 is October 15th, at 11:59 PM.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

so im gonna vote maven

 

[Vult Redux]

GOOD LUCK. :D

 

[Maven89]

Going to be busy almost all day, I'll get something tonight, before then

so im gonna vote maven

Where did this come from?

 

[Maven89]

Not going to get to this tonight, will get to it sometime tomorrow

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Mac give me run down on why Maven.

Maven why is mac scum over me?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I should get back to this sometime today

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Actually I'm gonna wait till maven responds before I say something

 

[Maven89]

Finally got some time, I'm going to be posting tonight

 

[Maven89]

Didn't finish, will get to it early morning

 

[Maven89]

So, why Mac?

He comes into the game pushing Ryker for minor reasons, fine. After Ryker votes Soup

Vote: Ryker

Thought I was voting him already.

Mac continues to push Ryker for almost no reason, generously put together by the late Ryker

This post does not add up to enough to have me be the only thing on your radar.



Red:

Dropped later when Zen comes forward to further clarify what I've been saying from the start that it isn't new. This is a nonpoint, but highlighting the bolded, it is, in his opinion, the strongest point.

Blue:

Good questions, thanks for that at least.

In general that's weak. There are people who still haven't given strong stances. There were even more that weren't giving strong stances prior to page three or four where my first reads list was posted. Can you please highlight why the way Bardull's wagon went down means my giving a reads list is gross.

Green:

I almost popped when I saw you do the exact same thing you complain about me doing in the blue section, but you later admit that it isn't inherently scummy, so........

Purple:

This is what kills me. Your biggest point gets eliminated. You have seen me post a reads list twice now. You have a much better idea of where I'm at than most of the game. No, I don't have the most substantial reads at this point. You just got done talking about how connections are murky and half the game has said their reads are shaky. Why in God's name am I the only thing you're considering STILL!?

I personally just generally have liked the majority of soups posts aside from his early argument with bardull. I esp liked his last point about maven

Soup spent most of Day 1 pushing me and Ryu, which are points to both of us

Start of Day 2, Mac is asked where Soup is in his lynchpool. Mac says

high

Then he says

I think both Zen and Soup are great options for a lynch -- but I also think we'll lose this game if Zen / Soup isn't the exact scum team......since the beginning of the Day, I've been heavily considering the idea of a Ryker / Zen scum team........The reason I think we'll lose the game if Zen / Soup isn't the scum team is that we only have 2 mislynches left. Assuming we use our lynches on Zen / Soup and only Zen flips scum but soup town.

(if you can't tell I edited out the non-relevant parts to what I'm getting at)

So he acknowledges Soup is scummy, but suddenly wants us to ignore Soup in favor of Ryker. Ryker, of course, claims.

Then there's the hammer at the end of Day 2, which I'll let Vult summarize (because it's easier)

Mac's behavior at the end of the day does make it obvious. I in my #722 drop that I'm starting to doubt the Zen wagon. I address to mac directly that I'm willing to flip onto the Soup wagon. Mac ignores that and says he's willing to hammer Zen if Ryker "approves". Zen works on me a bit more until, in #737, I reiterate my doubts about the wagon (I say I want to reread the game before deciding).

Mac then takes the opportunity to quickhammer off of Maven's stray vote; preventing the wagon from flipping back to Soup. Even though Ryker never said he should hammer Zen and I expressed doubts about lynching Zen.

I was fine with hammering Zen at the time, I thought he was real scummy, but you can't ignore Vult's point that the wagon was sliding towards Soup, and Mac stopped it, even though he was scumreading Soup. Apparently Ryker considered this scummy enough to tell Vult that Mac was scum (based on Vult's 1st post D3)



For Ryu town? He's been pushing Soup almost the whole game. Here's him doing this Day 1

I don't get the defense of Soup, I didn't like him during him vs Bardull and he's doing a lot of the same beats I am while not quite voting as much as I did.

What in particular stands out to make him more townie?

Then of course he came into Day 2 hard on Soup, which for some reason Mac wants to use to paint them as scum buddies?

Here's the closest Soup gave to giving full reads the entire game.

I'd lynch Ruy or Maven, I think I alluded to this already but I can clearly say it again if you want. I don't really have a readslist (I never do) and it's more about who I think are good lynches and who I think are bad lynches.

I don't want to lynch Zen, Gheb, Mac, or Vult. Everyone else I would be okay with.

Would kill me/Ryu, would not vote Mac.

Ryu and Ryker by proxy, maybe not both. You're my strongest townread next to Zen.

Would vote for Ryu again, still townreading Mac


So, ignoring most of Day 3, that's where I'm at. Mac and Soup both townread each other, until Mac stopped town reading Soup but all of his posts ended up saving him.

I also found his push on Ryu for voting Soup to make little sense. As it is, between Ryu and Mac, I see almost no reason to consider Ryu at all other then the fact that he's one of the last men standing.

 

[Maven89]

Maven89

I think the mafia was thinking of a Bardull-Ryu masonteam. Ryu had some interactions with Bardull that I think the mafia interpreted as them being Masons.

#260 Bardull quotes Gheb voting for Rryu, says: “This raised all sorts of red flags to me, but this has already been thoroughly discussed so I'm going to put it on the backburner and come back to it later.”

#261 Bardull says: “Regarding Red Ryu, because I've literally not once interacted with him this game: I need to address his slot, but have not done so because nothing in particular has stuck out to me as peculiar. I will reread him in a bit and then give my opinion, and then probably a read list at this exact moment.”

#270 Bardull puts Ryu on his town list, no explanation

#310 Ryu says he doens’t like Bardull’s reads but he is town. Doesn’t list him on his lynch list.


Because of the setup, Mafia kill has the goal of targeting a mason pair. Bardull and Ryu were a very likely Mason pair because they had unexplained town reads on each other. Wifom but whatever. Meanwhile, Zen suggested that Bardull was killed because he didn’t like me.

The problem with Zen’s argument is, mafia are not motivated to hunt based on dayplay or "framing" another player. Not this game. The setup forces Mafia to mason hunt. They aren’t going to kill Bardull because “it makes xxx look bad”; they’re going to kill him because they thought he is a Mason

I also think Vult has a real strong point here. It's WIFOMY and could go the other way, but it's sticking out to me as making the most sense.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Maven89 , you don't think my case vs ruy makes sense? what doesn't make sense about scum potentially bussing their partner? #HBC | Red Ryu , imagine that you weren't the slot the case was about, do you see how the case could have merit? you did act considerably differently d1 and d2 and I don't think town being wary of a scum bus is crazy.

Maven's post on me is pre bad. yea i was trying to push ryker over soup because i thought Ryker was scummiest. Dunno why you're saying I was pushing ryker for no reason, I think I explained my thought process on RykerScum multiple times througout the course of thread.

Maven89 , if you thought my reasoning was nonexistent, why did you start supporting a ryker lynch at the end of D1?



maven's post is also bad because It assumes that bussing is some unheard of concept.

Soup spent most of Day 1 pushing me and Ryu, which are points to both of us

Then of course he came into Day 2 hard on Soup, which for some reason Mac wants to use to paint them as scum buddies?

Here's the closest Soup gave to giving full reads the entire game.
--
Would kill me/Ryu, would not vote Mac.
--
Would vote for Ryu again, still townreading Mac
--
So, ignoring most of Day 3, that's where I'm at. Mac and Soup both townread each other, until Mac stopped town reading Soup but all of his posts ended up saving him.

all these points are assuming that scum would never bus their partner.

Maven even points out Soup's post at the end of D2 where Soup had already given up and knew he was likely to die. Maven gave me negative points for Soup townreading me (remember Soup also townread Zen). Which doesn't make sense because scum would be more likely to distance their partner if they know they're going to die soon.

Either way these points are all super wifomy and I'm not sure why Maven is using them to make alignment judgements.




The rest of Maven's post took a page out of Vult's book, that a lot of my actions indirectly saved soup. This is the only point that has merit imo, and only on d2.

But remember, anything you apply to me about this, you should be able to apply to Maven. D1 he also didn't support the Soup lynch and D2 he also contributed to the Zen lynch. He never once mentioned thinking soup was scum, he never generally said anything about soup at all.

The difference between me and maven is in this regard is that I've been in the forefront of the game, so my actions are more visible. But if you look through all of Maven's posts, you'll see that nowhere did he support any soup pushes but he also never expressed thinking that Soup was scum. This is the kind of safe play a scummer would have. As opposed to myself, where I openly stated I thought soup was town d1.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Mac give me run down on why Maven.

Maven why is mac scum over me?

Well my reasoning was less 'why is Maven scum?' and more 'why is Ruy town?'

Basically when rereading yesterDay I noticed this interaction between you and soup (I'm too lazy to quote posts right now but can do it later):

Soup sheds suspicion on you saying you've been playing really "passive" and unlike your Ruy meta. You respond to him saying something like you're busy and that your meta is outdated but that you'll work to be less passive.

Then a few days after that, in a post that near the end of D1. You say something like "I'm sorry guys, I know I've been playing passive. I'm going to try to work on that but I can't toDay since the days almost over". The way the post was worded made it seem like you forgot who initially called you out for playing passively.

I thought this was an explicit disconnection between you and Soup because I doubt that as soup's scum partner you'd feel the need to go back to reference a point that only Soup made. It didn't even seem like you remembered who made the point about passiveness which strengthens the idea that it's a disconnection because I think if you two were buddies you'd remember that he was the one that said it.

I made the case about how your behavior D1 and D2 was drastically different and kept asking you why that was the case. You eventually answered with something like, "I was trying to be less passive D2 because I was too passive D1". This is what I initally assumed was the reason behind your shift in behavior and you responding with this answer just strengthened how I felt about this disconnection and alleviated my concerns about your potential bus with Soup

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i have tons of reasons why I think it's obvious that I'm town but I'm too lazy to write them up atm. if you really need em then I'll do it

let's just say that there's a reason literally every confirmed townie thought I was townie (Gheb, Bardull, and even Zen after I hammered him thought I was town). Only exceptions are Ryker (who never explicitly thought I was scum) and Maven who never said anything. Even you Ruy and Vult Redux thought I was town up until my Zen hammer.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You were on the boarder of not being lynched/last lynch if recall.

 

[Maven89]

I don't know why you're saying I don't understand the concept of busing, what I'm saying is that a bus made no sense. Why would they start Day 2 with Ryu busing Soup when they just lynched Gheb? The only part of your push on this that hints at a bus is his read on me vanishing, but considering the flip I don't understand how that's a red flag to you. I still find your whole Ryu case real weak, and saw nothing odd about Ryu pushing Soup. I see your evidence, I'm telling you it's Zen's case on Gheb. It's not there.

The vote for me is between you and Ryu. Ryu has been pushing Soup almost all game. You've mentioned him as scummy and did very little about it, and in a round about way have helped him survive as long as he did. Then you turned and pushed Ryu for voting the scum. I also find it amazing you think town reading scum is a town point for you. I made mention of why I ignored Soup back on Day 2, it's personal reasons.

I was down to lynch Ryker end of Day 1 because he hadn't done much and I didn't want Gheb lynched. There's a reason Ryker and Vult both thought you were scummy and a strong reason to read Ryu as town.

If you really are town and can make a good case on Ryu go for it, because the case you have doesn't convince me at all.

I also can't help but notice you ended the last day hard on Ryu, but after I mentioned I probably wasn't swinging that way you suddenly changed it to me, yet still attacked me for not agreeing with your Ryu push.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Going to do a full reread of both of your tonight to figure this out.

For now I'll contemplating recent posts.

 

[Maven89]

Ryu I'm getting nervous with your lurking

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ryu I'm getting nervous with your lurking

I'm not I'm trying to reread when I got time.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't like either of your slots right now.

Still I'm going to be voting Mac, here is why.

Mac's direction, reads and pushes don't make sense to me this whole game. Ryker turns into his numero uno day 1 really quickly and doesn't seem to consider or change his mind until he had to, when Ryker claimed mason. Until then his case on Ryker was severely weak and didn't seem to try read Ryker at all.

His read on Soup also made no sense day 1. He says me and Soup are on his radar then changes his mind on Soup for no reason a little bit later. In general I dislike how people treated Soup this game with a free pass but his stands out as ill defined and lacked any sort of differentiation over why he was ok but Ryker had to die asap.

Maven on the other hand I might dislike some of his directions at least looks to me like someone who has a direction and is trying to think about the situation. I don't agree with his pushes nor some of his directions but at least looks like he has thought behind it that made sense.

Mac I've also noticed has been avoiding answering a lot of questions directly and dances around a lot of topics. Examples like yesterday where he say I'm the first he would lynch, over Maven and Soup because what? I had more of a problem with Mac hammering than Maven opening the door because he had questions and people mentioning to him no one wanted the hammer yet.

What makes a lot of this worse is the fact I think Mac was deliberately dancing around pushing Soup or really trying to look at that direction. He ignores suggestions to go for Soup and pushed for the claiming idea while quick hammering when given the chance with a fallback plan.

I'm not a huge fan of Maven's play yesterday but I see more genuine intent than with Mac.

That is where I stand.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

#HBC | Red Ryu

Ryker was my first read but he didn't do anything that would make me change my mind all game. Even after I pushed him D1 he didn't change his behaviour, he still didn't give us useful reads and was still playing very reserved.

I said you and soup were on my radar after i literally read (skimmed) through the thread once late at night. That dissipated after I couldn't remember why you guys got on my radar.

Mac I've also noticed has been avoiding answering a lot of questions directly and dances around a lot of topics. Examples like yesterday where he say I'm the first he would lynch, over Maven and Soup because what? I had more of a problem with Mac hammering than Maven opening the door because he had questions and people mentioning to him no one wanted the hammer yet.

what questions have I avoided? From what I can tell I've consistently responded to everything directed at me. When did I say I wanted to lynch you over soup and maven yesterDay?

Literally not one person told me not to hammer, including you Ruy. If Ryker said don't hammer just yet after I asked him, I wouldn't have hammered. but instead he didn't say or reveal anything about what he was thinking which has been a trend all game.

What makes a lot of this worse is the fact I think Mac was deliberately dancing around pushing Soup or really trying to look at that direction. He ignores suggestions to go for Soup and pushed for the claiming idea while quick hammering when given the chance with a fallback plan.

When did I ignore suggestions to go for soup? The closest is at the very end of Day when Vult mentioend that maybe we should wait to lynch Zen.

I literally actively tried to stop Zen from being lynched before the claim thing. I told people to unvote him, why would I do that as scum if my goal was to quick lynch anyway?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I don't know why you're saying I don't understand the concept of busing, what I'm saying is that a bus made no sense. Why would they start Day 2 with Ryu busing Soup when they just lynched Gheb? The only part of your push on this that hints at a bus is his read on me vanishing, but considering the flip I don't understand how that's a red flag to you. I still find your whole Ryu case real weak, and saw nothing odd about Ryu pushing Soup. I see your evidence, I'm telling you it's Zen's case on Gheb. It's not there.

It wasn't even a case (at least not with the intent of pushing Ruy yesterday). I was just pointing out why I had a scumread on Ruy the Day before and asking you if you agreed with the logic. I was trying to get more content out of you which has been sparse all game

The main point of the logic was that Ruy's behavior changed drastically between D1 and D2 for like no real reason. D1 he had reads on you and Soup but pushed neither of you strongly at all. D2 he drops his read on you and starts pushing Soup super hard out of nowhere. Why? I don't see why you think it's ridiculous that a townie would want to question this change in behavior.

The vote for me is between you and Ryu. Ryu has been pushing Soup almost all game. You've mentioned him as scummy and did very little about it, and in a round about way have helped him survive as long as he did. Then you turned and pushed Ryu for voting the scum. I also find it amazing you think town reading scum is a town point for you. I made mention of why I ignored Soup back on Day 2, it's personal reasons.

I don't think town reading scum is a point for me. I just don't think town reading scum looks worse than someone who's completely ignored scum all game (aka you Maven). If i'm scum partners with someone I would try to avoid interacting with them then explicitly reading them

I was down to lynch Ryker end of Day 1 because he hadn't done much and I didn't want Gheb lynched. There's a reason Ryker and Vult both thought you were scummy and a strong reason to read Ryu as town.

I don't undersandw hy my ryker read is scummy to you when you agreed he was scummy at the same time that I did.

 

[Maven89]

It wasn't even a case (at least not with the intent of pushing Ruy yesterday). I was just pointing out why I had a scumread on Ruy the Day before and asking you if you agreed with the logic. I was trying to get more content out of you which has been sparse all game

I understand you weren't trying to lynch Ryu yesterday (at least I hope not) but that's still a case, even if it's meant for another day.

The main point of the logic was that Ruy's behavior changed drastically between D1 and D2 for like no real reason. D1 he had reads on you and Soup but pushed neither of you strongly at all. D2 he drops his read on you and starts pushing Soup super hard out of nowhere. Why? I don't see why you think it's ridiculous that a townie would want to question this change in behavior.

I don't see a change in behavior inherently scum worthy and still don't understand why Ryu would try to bus Soup day 2. Day 3, sure, but day 2? I'm saying that when you include all the other information it just seems really unlikely.

I don't think town reading scum is a point for me. I just don't think town reading scum looks worse than someone who's completely ignored scum all game (aka you Maven). If i'm scum partners with someone I would try to avoid interacting with them then explicitly reading them

Difference was you tried to keep him alive when I never did. I understand why people would look at me scummy for ignoring Soup, I think I've played really poorly this game and didn't realize that until Zen's flip. I just don't think townreading a scum partner can give anyone town points.

I don't undersandw hy my ryker read is scummy to you when you agreed he was scummy at the same time that I did.

It's the context and reasons. You pushed Ryker all day 1 based largely off his initial post. I Ok'd lynching him as a compromise to save Gheb because of his lack of content. You mentioned his lack of content too, I don't fault you for that. I do fault you for pushing him so hard all day 1 and day 2 off of it.

#HBC | Red Ryu thoughts? cause I'm comfortable enough to end this game. The more I think about it the less likely I can imagine you being scum, and the more it seems to fit Mac

 

[ranmaru]

I will be at a birthday party today but I will be back. If you see any delay I apologize, but it would not be for long.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

#HBC | Red Ryu

Ryker was my first read but he didn't do anything that would make me change my mind all game. Even after I pushed him D1 he didn't change his behaviour, he still didn't give us useful reads and was still playing very reserved.

I said you and soup were on my radar after i literally read (skimmed) through the thread once late at night. That dissipated after I couldn't remember why you guys got on my radar.


what questions have I avoided? From what I can tell I've consistently responded to everything directed at me. When did I say I wanted to lynch you over soup and maven yesterDay?

Literally not one person told me not to hammer, including you Ruy. If Ryker said don't hammer just yet after I asked him, I wouldn't have hammered. but instead he didn't say or reveal anything about what he was thinking which has been a trend all game.



When did I ignore suggestions to go for soup? The closest is at the very end of Day when Vult mentioend that maybe we should wait to lynch Zen.

I literally actively tried to stop Zen from being lynched before the claim thing. I told people to unvote him, why would I do that as scum if my goal was to quick lynch anyway?

The fact he ended up there was an issue.

It was weak and showed zero signs of you trying to read the slot over making a push.

Even after the fact he pointed out the problem of how Soup, Me and Maven had that problem worse but Ryker was the one you singled out for it.

Vult had questions and considerations he pointed out yesterday you didn't address them and ignored then in favor of the quick hammer on Zen.

It shut off current discussion while moving the wagon away from Soup.

In general I do think a Soup scum flip makes you look worse.

You said yesterday I was your lynch of choice and only moved away from it when you couldn't get one last vote.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I understand you weren't trying to lynch Ryu yesterday (at least I hope not) but that's still a case, even if it's meant for another day.




I don't see a change in behavior inherently scum worthy and still don't understand why Ryu would try to bus Soup day 2. Day 3, sure, but day 2? I'm saying that when you include all the other information it just seems really unlikely.





Difference was you tried to keep him alive when I never did. I understand why people would look at me scummy for ignoring Soup, I think I've played really poorly this game and didn't realize that until Zen's flip. I just don't think townreading a scum partner can give anyone town points.



It's the context and reasons. You pushed Ryker all day 1 based largely off his initial post. I Ok'd lynching him as a compromise to save Gheb because of his lack of content. You mentioned his lack of content too, I don't fault you for that. I do fault you for pushing him so hard all day 1 and day 2 off of it.

#HBC | Red Ryu thoughts? cause I'm comfortable enough to end this game. The more I think about it the less likely I can imagine you being scum, and the more it seems to fit Mac

Down to lynch him.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Vote: mac

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Maven89

Deadline is 4ish hours please vote

 

[Maven89]

Vote: Mac

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Cool but did town win?

 

[Maven89]

For real, players were whack this game

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Didn't even realize deadline was today, had a ****ton of life stuff thrown at me in the last few days