Flavorless Mafia II: Gave over. Who won?

[#HBC | Mac]

Anyways, sorry town =[

We didn't deserve the win

 

[Maven89]

Open to lynching Ruy still, that's pretty much where I'm at.

You dead bro but I kill final boss

 

[Vult Redux]

Gg

For real, players were whack this game

i feel like my reads were actually the least whack which is surprising.

 

[Maven89]

Yeah by the end you were getting it right, you figured out why we killed Bard

 

[Maven89]

Main thing that I felt hurt the town was stubbornness. People were too willing to just force their pet theories and weren't open to reconsidering, I can think of very few examples of people changing their minds in this game. Gheb's lynch was crazy and took us by surprise, we never thought he'd get lynched for that. There were several times when people were shown their arguments were wrong but no one ever seemed to care.

 

[Vult Redux]

Yeah by the end you were getting it right, you figured out why we killed Bard

I KNEW IT. RYKER WASN'T CONVINCED BUT I KNEW IIIIIIT

I'm so excited for you to see the mason chat lmao

 

[Vult Redux]

after i figured out Ryu was def town we even went as far as to deliberately buddy Ryu to try to confuse you into thinking we were masons w/ him lmao

 

[ranmaru]

Votecount Final

Red Ryu
Macman: Red Ryu, Maven
Maven

Not voting:
Macman, Maven, Red Ryu

Important Links:
Game links and Vote Counts

Notes:
N/A

*= Currently being replaced
**= V/LA

With 3 players, it takes 2 votes to lynch
The deadline for Day 4 is October 15th, at 11:59 PM.

 

[ranmaru]

Macman was lynched! He was a vanilla townie.

Red Ryu, vanilla townie, was endgamed

Maven, Mafia Goon and soup, Mafia rolecop, win the game!

 

[ranmaru]

qt's and role pm's (going to post them later, waiting on their permission for respect)

Dead QT
[Mafia QT]
[Mason QT]

Actions:

N1
Scum Kill Bardull
Soup targets Vult

N2
Scum kill Ryker

N3
Scum kill Vult

 

[ranmaru]

Feel free to continue post-game discussion

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Town played like shiiiiiiit this game.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Main thing that I felt hurt the town was stubbornness. People were too willing to just force their pet theories and weren't open to reconsidering, I can think of very few examples of people changing their minds in this game. Gheb's lynch was crazy and took us by surprise, we never thought he'd get lynched for that. There were several times when people were shown their arguments were wrong but no one ever seemed to care.

I was always willing to reconsider things. In fact I did. So did Vult and Zen.

Unfortunately for me, I had people on my nuts the entire game to the point where I had to consider them as possible scum because of a lack of anything else from the slot. After I claimed, Mac did fine aside from being lazy about posting. Hammer was bad, but he played okay enough. I felt his points were better in LyLo, but he was saddled with the stigma left from early game.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ruy COMPLETELY missed Maven throwing shade at him the previous day.

 

[ranmaru]

I will say the game was pretty active which I was happy to see. I can't really give thoughts on people's play but I can give it a read if people would like my outside perspective of their play.

Basically everyone was looking for active scum but never considered the inactive. Sadly both in actives were the scum, hehe.

Will give thoughts on the setup in a bit

 

[ranmaru]

One thing:

Just because Ryker or anyone else is playing differently than their town meta, does not mean they are scum.

The converse is also true:

Just because someone is playing differently than their scum meta, does not mean they are town.

 

[ranmaru]

On the setup:

I like masons so I just went that to keep it simple. Yet I don't think it turned out as simple as I would like, sadly for you guys. Just so you know, the mafia already found out Vult's role N1, so any actions/plans going on the assumption that they didn't find Vult was not good. In the future I intend to run a mountainous setup. How does everyone here feel about that?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ruy COMPLETELY missed Maven throwing shade at him the previous day.

I saw it, I was judging that while throwing questions at Vult on feedback where he stood on Mac v Maven.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I regret not focusing on the inactive slots more which is where I was day 2 but the Zen quicklynch was awful and messed that up.

 

[ranmaru]

Your reads were the most accurate. Since you weren't heavily involved in discussion, you had a better idea of the whole picture. You weren't confident about your reads in a way that would cause you to emotionally invest in the game and stick to your beliefs stubbornly, yet you were involved enough to have a balanced idea. (Correct me if I am wrong on your confidence earlier on) I realized my confidence in my reads has really held me back in reading people well.

 

[Xivii]

Great call on the Bardull kill, Vult. I can't believe I didn't realize that despite also thinking Ruy and Bardull were Masons.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This was pretty much the most grotesque Day 1 I've ever experienced. Absolutely ridiculous.

On the setup:

I like masons so I just went that to keep it simple. Yet I don't think it turned out as simple as I would like, sadly for you guys. Just so you know, the mafia already found out Vult's role N1, so any actions/plans going on the assumption that they didn't find Vult was not good. In the future I intend to run a mountainous setup. How does everyone here feel about that?

I think closed masons are broken af, especially in a small setup like this.
Role Cops are still stupid 50/50 kind of roles, even on mafia's side.

I don't think this was a good setup, however little it ended up contributing towards this game's outcome [probably nothing].

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Great job team, and by team, I mean maven.

 

[Vult Redux]

i feel like my reads were actually the least whack which is surprising.

I RESCIND THIS

[9/25/16, 11:39:58 PM] Michael DS: i think Zen is scum
[9/25/16, 11:40:08 PM] Michael DS: probably with Soup
[9/25/16, 11:41:08 PM] Michael DS: His sudden flip on you and Ryu is so that he has options to push so that he can avoid my pressuring him to jump on a Soup wagon.
[9/25/16, 11:45:20 PM] Michael DS: his two most recent questions at me were trying to grill me for seemingly abandoning my previously negative Ryu and Mac reads. He wants me to reconsider them
[9/25/16, 11:56:09 PM] Michael DS: also he literally just dodged all of your questions for him. He actually suggested you provide your Soup read first
[9/25/16, 11:56:35 PM] Michael DS: Ryker…. we literally won. We’re gonna win

 

[Vult Redux]

actually despite that my reads probably still were the least whack, other than Ryu's and Ryker's ofc

 

[Vult Redux]

https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/BJnbUvdFhSZ

 

[Vult Redux]

the mafia already found out Vult's role N1

aw rats

 

[Maven89]

I was always willing to reconsider things. In fact I did. So did Vult and Zen.

Unfortunately for me, I had people on my nuts the entire game to the point where I had to consider them as possible scum because of a lack of anything else from the slot. After I claimed, Mac did fine aside from being lazy about posting. Hammer was bad, but he played okay enough. I felt his points were better in LyLo, but he was saddled with the stigma left from early game.

Your right, I shouldn't have said that.

https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/5ZCdYibUWndFs

We ended up talking in our private convo for the rest of it. Only important part of that was us suggesting it was Vult/Ryu, which is what we were thinking until Ryker claimed. As you can see Zen ended up right on the night kill too. I really did misread Zen and thought he thought I was the mason.

Vult was right that I didn't try to push someone off of Gheb because people were throwing around Soup, and I asked Mac to hammer because people were trying to go after Soup, and I really didn't want Ryker to post his final thoughts, I thought Zen was coming off pretty town by the end and I was worried he'd derail it. That was probably the scummiest thing that happened.

Ryu was on point by Day 2, he honed in on scum and kept at it.

Really didn't think Gheb would get lynched, I didnt intend to involve myself in defending a townie the whole day. But that happened anyways so that was nice

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

actually despite that my reads probably still were the least whack, other than Ryu's and Ryker's ofc

Actually true. In the middle of D1, most people had one of Maven/Soup in their scum pools, if not both, but were distracted by one guy that drew more of their focus--Gheb, Ryker, and Mac for the most part. The exception to this was Ruy, who had both as mafia in the middle of D1. I actually felt that he was probably the best townie if not for his low activity in the earlier stages of the game and had he not fixated on Mac late in the game.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Vult was right that I didn't try to push someone off of Gheb because people were throwing around Soup, and I asked Mac to hammer because people were trying to go after Soup, and I really didn't want Ryker to post his final thoughts, I thought Zen was coming off pretty town by the end and I was worried he'd derail it. That was probably the scummiest thing that happened.

This as well. Yeh, Mac looks bad on that hammer but he was fishing for it anyway. Maven coming out of nowhere to give him the alley oop when he wasn't even requested to do so and had been mostly inactive for all of the game was scummier in my eyes and I'm surprised nobody (publicly) discussed it for more than maybe a couple of paragraphs on Sprite's part.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I felt town lost because the 4 biggest townies (Ryker, Sprite, Zen, and Mac) didn't work together at all. That D2 was inexcusably awful in my eyes and I think it's where town put themselves in the biggest hole, even if they still had a chance to win on D4. Mac needed Ryker to claim the only PR in the game to trust him, Ryker and Sprite lynched Zen without Soup's flip in hand in the first place (and were not active enough in stopping the Zen wagon like Sprite unvoting in response to a hammer-fishing Mac), and Zen himself was merely inconsistent and never seemed to get comfortable with a direction in this game, allowing others to scumread him for making weird actions, such as the way he treated Soup. If Sprite realized Zen was town sooner and managed to get both Ryker and Mac to trust him on that, the game was over for Mafia. A quick comparison in content to Ruy would have revealed that Maven/Soup were the likely scummers there and that would've been that. Instead, Zen got lynched for what I think were weak reasons and the game fell apart from there.

 

[Maven89]

Is Sprite Vult? Everyone changes their names way too often, I didn't even realize Xivii was Zen until people were calling him that in this game.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Yeh, Vult is Sprite. We both went by different names on AiB than we do here and both of us refer to the other by those old names--Sprite for him and Riddle for me.

 

[Vult Redux]

in my defense Zen's weird attitude toward Soup and Mac quickhammering Zen were decent reasons to not like them

someone help me get a username change lol

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Zen's behavior toward Soup wasn't scummy in the case of Soup scum, it was scummy in general. It was a case of pages and pages of casual defense based on very little and never brought up again. It was unfortunate that he was reconsidering me and wanted my answer first when I essentially reached a "last chance to prove me wrong moment."

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

For the record, Xivii , I probably WOULD have dropped it if you could've explained your read on Soup again, but I understand the position we found ourselves in.

Also, that posting fake comms is disgusting and doing something like that as scum and then playing again when people don't move to lynch you for some reason is something I could totally see you doing. Please don't use that brand of sarcasm. It doesn't carry well.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I never got that impression in the pages upon pages of reading him myself. It was inconsistent and ill-conceived but it was so radically different from Sprite's PyP that meta was actually applicable. He was far more careful, far more neutral, and far more consistent in how he played that game up until his replacement, whereas here he was irrational at times and flipped nonchalantly between reads and decisions but those decisions were often stanced--I never got the feeling that what he was doing might also be helping mafia. I know meta is a dangerous thing to apply to Zen but I'm surprised that you and Sprite never considered the difference or the reasons behind it.

Not to mention that I don't find his inconsistency scummy. It was very clear to me from the get go that he was trying to accomplish things but the lack of clear towniness out of most slots sans Sprite made it hard for him to settle into a single direction. There was a point Sprite quoted a post of him and said "yeh this is really townie of you"--I don't remember what exactly he said in it unfortunately, but I agreed with him and put Zen as solidly town as of that point. Ranmaru can vouch me in that as he got all my thoughts to him over D1 and D2 as I spectated the game.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Inconsistency wasn't what I disliked about Zen. It was the single sticking point of consistency on Soup based on reasoning I did not like not remember until I went back and read it. Both Sprite and I read it and disagreed with it, but when Sprite came back to the thread to ask about it after rereading like Zen asked, he got ignored. So when I asked about it and got deflected, you can understand why I was very unhappy with the slot. I didn't knkw whether he was trying to pocket a town Soup as I assume Zen could do rather easily or if he was protecting a scum Soup. It didn't seem genuine given what I saw in the thread.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Hell, if I were to hammer down on someone driving a game forward at the cost of some inconsistency, I would need to reevaluate my life.

 

[Vult Redux]

Both Sprite and I read it and disagreed with it, but when Sprite came back to the thread to ask about it after rereading like Zen asked, he got ignored. So when I asked about it and got deflected, you can understand why I was very unhappy with the slot.

^ tru

[9/26/16, 12:02:31 AM] Michael DS: omg I also asked him about his take on Soup and he outright ignored it LOL
[9/26/16, 8:35:53 AM] Michael DS: HE’S ASKING YOU TO CLAIM IN YOUR NEXT POST LOL
[9/26/16, 11:02:28 AM] DRB | Ryker: I'm thinking I'm about to hard push that slot
[9/26/16, 11:02:55 AM] DRB | Ryker: It's not just today
[9/26/16, 11:03:01 AM] DRB | Ryker: It's literally all game
[9/26/16, 11:03:07 AM] DRB | Ryker: He has not given specifics on his Soup read