final smashes... why?

[BigRick]

I intend to run some Brawl tournaments and I have the intention to take a step by step a approach into making the rules.

Seeing what works and what doesn't takes time, and we need to experiment and share the results of these experiences with the rest of the community in order to obtain the best ruleset possible.

And yeah, some FSes cannot be considered broken if they don't dominate the scene for an extended period of time... not just one tournament, but many events.

 

[Kayn]

Stop saying Final Smashes are friggin finishing moves that will usually K.O. the crap out of people!!!! They are just more powerful or large-scale moves that you wouldn't find in the fighters' normal moveset!!!! Obviously we cant have a character whose B special move throws a gazillion fireballs that take up half the screen, so its Mario's exclusive Final Smash. Who's to say that the Fireballs he throws in the Final Smash can't be of similar power to his normal fireballs? The Final Smashes will probably not all be lethal, and the ones like Link's might be on a single victim and harder to execute. I'm just saying, Finishing moves in the SmashBros series are called Smash attacks, because they're meant to be used when your opponent has gotten enough damage and is ready to die. And there is no way a huge army of Centurions caused by Pit are gonna have the same deadly power of a Smash Attack.

you see, anyone who understood the name could take from it that it is a lethal attack. Final Smash means that the person on the receiving end will die. That's why its call Final. If you think it'll just be a super B move you are seriously mistaken, or have you not seen the screenshots of the FS?

Edit for importance: So let me get this straight, in able for you to use Zero Suit Samus, you have to do the super move? I so hope this isn't the case, or she won't be selectable in tournament play seeing how super moves could be turned off.

However people will still play as samus regardless if they are able to become ZSS because chances are Samus will still be a good/decent character. So, pretty much you'll still see samus.

 

[GreenKirby]

you see, anyone who understood the name could take from it that it is a lethal attack. Final Smash means that the person on the receiving end will die. That's why its call Final. If you think it'll just be a super B move you are seriously mistaken, or have you not seen the screenshots of the FS?

Lots of things are called Final something that really isn't final at all. Final Fantasy for example.

And so far, there's only three BACONs that guareentee KOs and they all seem to have bigger disvantages.

Pikachu: Doesn't look very controllable
Bowser: Might be slow
Samus: Loses power after use

 

[BigRick]

you see, anyone who understood the name could take from it that it is a lethal attack. Final Smash means that the person on the receiving end will die. That's why its call Final.

This is almost sig worthy

EDIT: this is sig worthy

 

[S_B]

After playing some other 2D fighters, I understand why final smashes are important.

The more variety to a characters playstyle, the more diverse the game in general. It adds another layer of depth which, I feel, is necessary.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

They wanted the game to look fancy

Seriously though, the real question is why not?

 

[AA-Abderian]

I just think it's funny that people expect the Brawl tourney scene to be just like Melee's right off the bat.

For competative play I expect:

• Fairness (no ways to have endless combos with no possible ways out, no glitching, no hacked controllers, ect.)
• Tier system (In the assumption that there in no way possible to balance what seems to be a growing lineup, ill tell you after playing the game a little)
• Being in a situation that allows the competetors to display their skills without interference.

In many way's there are limitations to how much the tourney scene can actually change. Just because it is a new game doesnt mean it will change that much either (Take the Soul Calibur Series for example). Personally I think it will be almost identical (for east coast tourney styles). As an east coast tourney player, I dont appreciate item tournaments. I also dont appreciate some over the top stages (like the ice climbers lvl. and pokefloats) just because it gives some characters obvious advantages. I am almost positive I will carry these ideals over to Brawl.

That being said the gameplay itself doesnt seem to be changing all of that much. The largest change that i've noticed was the addition of four controller choices. After time there may become obvious advanages of each controller and it will be interesting to see the development of them in tourney play. Basically on only gameplay changes/additions besides that are the new characters and movesets.... oh and dont forget the addition of using your opponent as a spring (actually I take back that hint of sarcasm, i bet that will make for some interesting edgeguarding).

To say the least, yes I do believe the tourney scene will be very similar. I'd like to hear other opinions though.

 

[linkw00t]

Being in a situation that allows the competetors to display their skills without interference.

There are more skills that just pure technique skills. Being able to use items in a good way is "skills" aswell. Also knowing how to counter items is a skill. This word is used too much, and inappropriately at that. The whole randomness argument is a bit dated, and items ON and items OFF depend on a variety of factors. Which we really can't know yet, seeing as no one has played the game.

I hope Final Smash can't be turned off.

 

[Impact009]

Lots of things are called Final something that really isn't final at all. Final Fantasy for example.

Do you even know why Sakaguchi named it Final Fantasy?

On another note, it'd be great if final smashes could be turned off. If a tournament allows them, and you don't like it, then don't go. You shouldn't enter a tournament if you don't agree with its rules. I'm just saying, versatility would be nice. I sometimes like to play with items on, and I sometimes like to play with items off. I like different things when I'm playing casually, and this game isn't made just for the pro metagame after all.

It really does seem like they're jumping on the "super combo" bandwagon though.

 

[BigRick]

Being able to use items in a good way is "skills" aswell. Also knowing how to counter items is a skill.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Impact009]

Quoted for truth.

Agreed; MKIV anybody?

 

[Aesir]

I think over half the people here don't even understand why items were banned before mic_128 told them.

 

[AA-Abderian]

There are more skills that just pure technique skills. Being able to use items in a good way is "skills" aswell.
...

I hope Final Smash can't be turned off.

I do agree that there are several "skills" involved in using items. There are also times where these items give rediculous advantages with items such as heart containers. Your point is well taken though. I guess we will have to see for ourselves once the game is out.

 

[AA-Abderian]

There are more skills that just pure technique skills. Being able to use items in a good way is "skills" aswell.
...

I hope Final Smash can't be turned off.

I do agree that there are several "skills" involved in using items. There are also times where these items give rediculous advantages with items such as heart containers. Your point is well taken though. I guess we will have to see for ourselves once the game is out.

 

[AA-Abderian]

There are more skills that just pure technique skills. Being able to use items in a good way is "skills" aswell.
...

I hope Final Smash can't be turned off.

I do agree that there are several "skills" involved in using items. There are also times where these items give rediculous advantages with items such as heart containers. Your point is well taken though. I guess we will have to see for ourselves once the game is out.

 

[BigRick]

I think over half the people here don't even understand why items were banned before mic_128 told them.

I love to quote people for truth.

 

[THK]

Lawl. Triple post. **** dude.

In any case what I meant is that tourney scenes have to develop first. You can't just go right in it saying okay this stage is banned, that stage is banned, you can' use this stage for team battle. This character easily beats this character, etc etc etc.

Like the Melee scene it has to develop. The Brawl scene might develop faster but at the very least I believe it'd take a year or two.

I think over half the people here don't even understand why items were banned before mic_128 told them.

That too. Most people figure items were banned because they were "cheap". And how wrong they are!

 

[snoblo]

Wouldn't it be much wiser if we just wait for the game to come out and see how final smashes and other changes affect the gameplay?

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I don't think any FS looks broken or unavoidable/uncounterable, but I'll have to wait and see until it comes out...

 

[The Fail Tracer]

I don't understand why so many people hate the idea of FS's so much. It's not cheap, because it can only be used once and you have to be the first one to get to it to use it. If you really hate FS's so much, then turn the Smash Ball off. They can be turned off if they're an item. Stop complaining.

The Smash Ball is a unique item, and it's cool. I look forward to seeing all of the characters' Final Smashes.

 

[RokkuManZer0]

I look forward to seeing all of the characters' Final Smashes.

I second this man's motion.

I don't think Final Smashes are cheap. What they should do is give them a fix spawning point in every stage, or better yet, warn the players that a Smash Ball is incoming and let it fall very, very slowly so players can fight for superior ground to get it.

Most of them are looking awesome though some do look a bit more powerful then others. Mario's and Samus' have **** all range, while Link's only targets one person. What's up with that? Though in 1v1 it won't make a difference anyway.

 

[Ess oh Aytch]

Items reduce the amount of skill needed at a competitive level. You have no clue what you're talking about. Yes, SSBM tournaments used to have items...HOW long ago? I noticed they don't anymore. Hm, I wonder why? Items are random, and thus are in a way, unfair. An item can fall right in front of you, and you can use it on someone else. Now the other person has to not only worry about you, but the item you have. The new item created, the badge.... Falco's entire approach is detroyed. If Falco's still in Brawl and his laser use the same effect (or another Star Fox character takes the role of Falco), the entire approach will be ruined, not due to skill or characters, but due to the impromptu appearance of completely RANDOM items, and thus, not due to skill either.

Falco can be SHLing and suddenly a badge falls right in front of his opponent. Oh, the skill that took! He must have taken control of the game and made it fall there due to his superior skill! Any character who uses projectiles would be ruined in tournaments due to that item, and I'm sure there will be more items of the same manner. It does NOT take skill. It's skill with characters, not luck, or the ability to pick up random items which fell in random spots.

I second this man's motion.

I don't think Final Smashes are cheap. What they should do is give them a fix spawning point in every stage, or better yet, warn the players that a Smash Ball is incoming and let it fall very, very slowly so players can fight for superior ground to get it.

Most of them are looking awesome though some do look a bit more powerful then others. Mario's and Samus' have **** all range, while Link's only targets one person. What's up with that? Though in 1v1 it won't make a difference anyway.

Ah, let us look at the other point. Even making it fall more slowly, there are certain skills specific characters have that others don't, you know, such as speed, and jumping height. Let's say it falls right over a character that jumps very high... The character jumps and grabs it before it gets in grabbing reach of the other character. If a character hits another character with a strong attack, and the other character goes flying...what if a Smash Ball falls at that moment? You can't say "He shouldn't have gotten hit," because it's completely random the ball fell at the time in that place. You got hit, a Smash Ball spawns right where you land. I can keep bringing up a countless number of examples, but I simply have not the patience.

It is based merely on luck, and certain characters have advantages when it comes to items, while they are not the better character.

Don't you understand? I don't know how many times I have to recite the same point. COMPETITIVE PLAY CANNOT AND WILL NOT BE ABLE TO HANDLE THE SPONTANEOUS NATURE OF ITEMS.

 

[_the_sandman_]

Sakurai added something new to the game. It makes things more interesting.

And if you don't like it you can turn it off.

 

[specialsauce]

fs movs are just a new way to play the game theres no problem at all with it bein in the game, its there to make the game more fun. the point of a squel is to do everything the previous game did and more, fs moves are just a really cool new adition to the game, wouldnt u wrather have more features in a game that if u choose can take ouut rather than not have them at all.

 

[Ess oh Aytch]

I don't have a problem with FS's being in the game.... They just won't be used in competitive play. You all really need to learn how to read.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Because you're a member of the Smash BRoom and know what all the major tournament directors are discussing regarding items in future tournaments? No, you're not. Stop acting like you do.

Current consensus is that if Crates and Barrels and Capsules can be turned off (or at least not explode) then Items will be given a solid chance. And by "items" I mean most, if not all, because this is an entirely NEW game, not Melee 2.0

firstly, yes its a new game, but it CLEARLY is using the exact same engine, and many of the exact same animations, and will almost definitely require many of the same strategies.

No, its actually because i'm pretty sure that most of the tournament directors aren't *******.
Items throw off the balance of the game, and make it more random and unfair. If you think "unbalanced", "random", and "unfair" are words that should be used to describe a tournament, well then remind me to never go to any competition you hold.

That's the reason they are disallowed in tournaments. That's the reason they will always be disallowed in tournaments.

If you really think a SINGLE super powerful move that makes a damage meter, and i quote, "skyrocket" should be tournament legal, you're absolutely mentally challenged.


WHY WOULD THEY BAN ITEMS ON MELEE AND NOT ON BRAWL?

geezus

Items and final smashes will be icredibly fun in free for alls, but they will almost certainly be banned in tournament.
I'll bet someone a hundred dollars right now that they will be banned in tournaments.

 

[LinkGadra]

firstly, yes its a new game, but it CLEARLY is using the exact same engine, and many of the exact same animations, and will almost definitely require many of the same strategies.

No, its actually because i'm pretty sure that most of the tournament directors aren't *******.
Items throw off the balance of the game, and make it more random and unfair. If you think "unbalanced", "random", and "unfair" are words that should be used to describe a tournament, well then remind me to never go to any competition you hold.

That's the reason they are disallowed in tournaments. That's the reason they will always be disallowed in tournaments.

If you really think a SINGLE super powerful move that makes a damage meter, and i quote, "skyrocket" should be tournament legal, you're absolutely mentally challenged.


WHY WOULD THEY BAN ITEMS ON MELEE AND NOT ON BRAWL?

geezus

Items and final smashes will be icredibly fun in free for alls, but they will almost certainly be banned in tournament.
I'll bet someone a hundred dollars right now that they will be banned in tournaments.

Exact same enigne? Gee, I didn't know you were on the Brawl Dev Team. Any other secrets you wish to impart upon us lowly SmashBoarders? [/sarcasm]

As to why items are banned in Melee, Mic_128 explained it quite nicely already. We can't really say with certainty what Brawl will be like, so things will be tried out, we'll see what works and what doesn't and go from there. Just like we did with Melee.

 

[Killer Tree]

Final Smash is a stupid idea.


Yay an item falls and whoever touches it first kills everyone!


-_-

 

[BigRick]

Final Smash is a stupid idea.


Yay an item falls and whoever touches it first kills everyone!


-_-

Look at DKs final smash.
Look at Bowser's final smash.

After seeing those two, we can already tell that FSes will be powerful, but will not guarantee a KO.

Actually, I think that many FSes in the game will suck.

 

[LinkGadra]

Look at DKs final smash.
Look at Bowser's final smash.

After seeing those two, we can already tell that FSes will be powerful, but will not guarantee a KO.

Actually, I think that many FSes in the game will suck.

Suck? That's a bit harsh, don't you think? Sure, they're not waveshines, but I believe they'll at least be visually impressive, if not ridiculously effective in KOing.

 

[akiko]

i always wanted final smashes in the game

it just adds more fun

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I like all the MASSIVE FAIL from the people not understanding why items were banned.

If exploding crates and such are done away with I can count on mass "WTF ITEM HAX ALLOWED NOW?! NO FAIR!" And I'd just keep lollin'

 

[cazoup]

but alot of you guys are forgetting that ssbb isnt just selling to seriuos players there also selling to kids. So relating this to final smashes if a kid saw it they would be "O wow this is Awsome" and start telling there friends about that and eventualy make more ppl buy it. So for final smashes i say Thumbs up!!!!!!

 

[Crystallion]

but alot of you guys are forgetting that ssbb isnt just selling to seriuos players there also selling to kids. So relating this to final smashes if a kid saw it they would be "O wow this is Awsome" and start telling there friends about that and eventualy make more ppl buy it. So for final smashes i say Thumbs up!!!!!!

Actually, there'd also be many more or less grown-up people that would see the FS. I mean, just the fact that every character gets his own FS...I mean, fanservice at its finest! It's just the permanent pessimism of some people that really kills the joy

 

[cazoup]

Actually, there'd also be many more or less grown-up people that would see the FS. I mean, just the fact that every character gets his own FS...I mean, fanservice at its finest! It's just the permanent pessimism of some people that really kills the joy

Exactly ty

 

[Chaos Paladin]

i think it gives more charecter to the players and changes old players. It looks like alot of fun to play with but to use it u need the smashball. Dont u think there will be an option to turn off the final smashes? i do, they made one for items. So even if u dont like it u could just turn it off =p

 

[GreenKirby]

Why do people ***** about all the new things in this game? Did anyone even played the game yet?

No. Good

 

[pdk]

The new item created, the badge.... Falco's entire approach is detroyed. If Falco's still in Brawl and his laser use the same effect (or another Star Fox character takes the role of Falco), the entire approach will be ruined, not due to skill or characters, but due to the impromptu appearance of completely RANDOM items, and thus, not due to skill either.

wow, so they're taking out his grab and aerials too?

 

[choknater]

Items =/= Skill?

I guess no one has ever played Yen or Scamp, or competitive item matches in general in melee. It may seem like a joke to you, but that sht is intense. It does require a lot of skill, but maybe not the kind of skill that most are used too. Yes, random exploding containers suck, but other than that, items DO require skill to use properly. Judging otherwise is a result of ignorance. How many of you anti-item debaters have actually used items recently, and not just for kicks?

Also, I don't really understand the counter arguments against "items and stage hazards are against how the game was meant to be played." Does dealing with them not require skill?

etc.

I may be a "tourny***" and an experienced one at that, but all the hate from 4chan toward Dylan_tnga has really opened my eyes. Non tourny-goers in general put up some really valid points. Some of you really need to be numbed past your Melee experiences and view Brawl as if it was a whole new game. Similar? Yes, of course it is. But it's still a whole different game. It kinda makes me sad to see people banning stages and items right off the bat.

I think I'm going to dislike the tournament systems for, oh, about 6 months after its release. Or longer, if it takes me to that much time to unlock everything, lol. I'm gonna bask in the single-player experience, playing with my brother in my friends, and discovering new things. I'm gonna do it for a long time, despite how many melee tournaments I've gone to.

Brawl =/= Melee.
and yet some of you say
Brawl Tournament Rules = Melee Tournament Rules.....??

If that is truly how it's gonna turn out, then I don't want to go to tournaments. For a while at least.

 

[specialsauce]

people should stop complaing about new things in the game oh so u think it wont be good for competitve play well if u havent notieced there are people out there who play for fun yeah thats right "fun" have u heard of it! plus fs look pretty cool and add somthing new to the mix again u dont have ot use it, just dont go saying sumthing sucks because it not good for a tournement etc