Final Smashes Tier List

[Pippy]

Couldn't help noticing the Luigi thing. Ok, he got out once. Luigi's final smash is luck based, so most of the time the opponent is toast, as they'll get trapped before they can escape. However, occasionally they don't get affected (ie: they get lucky) so they can escape, like in the video. So basically, 90% of the time, it's instant death. That's a pretty darn good smash to me.

 

[Sleek Media]

I'm a busy man.

So busy, you've made three posts in this thread alone within the last day. How's that day job, busy guy?

Again, your trying to look at very narrow scenarios. It's S because it's big, takes up a lot of space, has multiple attacks and can hover (two of which can KO you this way). Yes, you can dodge it, but it's big and can do a lot of things.

Can't tell if serious or just horrible at Smash. Going with horrible. Bigness as the primary reason for being good? Bowser for S tier, nuff said. And three actions (run over you, roll, and fire) is not "a lot of things". It's three things, unless you count standing on top of it like an idiot while it flies you off the top.

Landmaster is a glorified dragon yoshi. It's not as good at dealing with platforms as GW's octopus, but it has the projectile and can change direction to make up for it. You should never get star KO'd, especially if you're respawning on the platform. Do you jump straight into Negative Zone out of a spawn, knowing it ignores respawn invincibility?

I don't even know what to say about DK and Mario's FS being anything but completely abysmal. Have you actually played this game? Like, with a real life controller, and another human being who isn't breathing through his mouth? Not watching youtube videos or whatever it is you do?

 

[SmashChu]

Bigness as the primary reason for being good?

It's S because it's big, takes up a lot of space, has multiple attacks and can hover (two of which can KO you this way).

I think your bad at Smash. Or at least your arguments suck.

@Pippy:I'll disprove it some other time. Just give me time.

EDIT:On DK's final smash, here is another video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdjk6afgoxM&feature=related
Notice how much space it takes up. This is from about center of Final Destination. You can make it even better and almost undodgeable by positioning yourself closer to opponents.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I derailed a 8 minute timer thread into a Smash Balls tier list once, and this is what we came up with (Though ours doesn't take into account how easy it is to get one, that's besides the point):

imo it'd looks something like this:

[collapse=lol]S Tier:
Sonic

A tier:
Wario
Falco
Wolf
Fox
Samus
Snake
King Dedede
Ice Climbers

B Tier:
G&W
Sheik
Link/Toon Link
Yoshi
Pit
Diddy
Bowser
DK
Luigi
ROB

C Tier:
Peach
Jigglypuff
Pikachu


D Tier:
Zelda
Olimar
Captain Falcon
Mario

Fail Tier:
Pokemon Trainer
Lucario
Meta Knight
Ganondorf
Ike
Kirby
Lucas
Ness

Trash tier:
Marth
Zero Suit Samus[/collapse]

I have far too much time on my hands imo.

I didn't update it, but if I was to update it, it'd look more like this:

[collapse=V.2]S Tier: Sonic

A tier:
Wario
Falco
Wolf
Fox
Samus
Snake


B Tier:
G&W
Sheik
Link
Ganondorf
Diddy
Yoshi
Bowser
DK
Luigi
ROB


C Tier:
Peach
Jigglypuff
Pikachu
Pit
King Dedede
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Toon Link

D Tier:
Olimar
Captain Falcon
Mario

Fail Tier:
Pokemon Trainer
Lucario
Meta Knight
Ike
Lucas
Ness

Trash tier:
Marth
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus[/collapse]

 

[Pippy]

Two things I noticed with that:
1. Why are Link and TL so far apart when they have the same smash?
2. Why is Marth trash? I know it's tough to hit with it, but it's instant death if you do. It should D tier.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Because Toon Link's is noticible less powerful than Link's.

Marth's is trash because he raises his sword skyward, dramatically announces that he's going to attack you, then nonchalantly rushes toward you, giving you approximately 3 years to dodge it with ease.

Edit: It's the same thing with Sheik and Zelda. Zelda basically puts them in the optimal place so they won't die and it deals less knockback. Sheik's is a strong semi spike though.

 

[Pippy]

TL's is weaker? Huh, didn't know that. As for Marth, maybe if you... yea it's a fail. I forgot about how long it takes.

 

[Starwave]

Smashchu, that would be a convincing video, however I don't think the Luigi used his final smash right. On FD, you're supposed use it in the air and towards the corner the opponent is near.

Doing this forces them to roll in the other direction, but its usually impossible to do so since you'll be affected by status and Luigi will kill you. If you do it my (our?) way I guarantee you'll see success. I'll do so more testing with Mario with my brother, to see if its any good.

Wow aerodrome, that is actually damn good Final Smash tier list. (my only issue is Falco not being top and Mario not being bottom; everything else I more or less agree!)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I agree totally with the Luigi thing. When Luigi uses it, if they're in mid air, usually they go into a tumble, if they're on the ground, they usually fall asleep/taunt/get stunned.

Luigi's Final Smash reduced launch resistance to everyone (including Luigi) to the point where Luigi's taunt can star KO lighter characters. Fully charged f-smash will always kill.

Mario's Final Smash is decent. Because of the sheer size of the thing, it makes it difficult to DI out. It does about 45% damage, and at mid percents will actually kill people because of how far it travels. Mediocre, but not worse than any of the ones below it.

Falco's is good. I dunno if it's better than Sonic's or Wario's though. But generally all 3 of them last long enough to kill people twice. Wolf's also can kill people twice, but it's a tad more difficult. Fox will net at least one kill but struggles to get any more than that since they always rely on the second being a star KO and Fox's doesn't accelerate fast enough.

 

[FIREL]

Also for toon link, his range is shorter than links

 

[BSP]

Mario's Final Smash is decent. Because of the sheer size of the thing, it makes it difficult to DI out. It does about 45% damage, and at mid percents will actually kill people because of how far it travels. Mediocre, but not worse than any of the ones below it.

I have to disagree on this. It is just too easy to jump out of the way of Mario's FS. The only time it's actually a threat is in an edgeguarding situation, which is bad considering it's a FS.

You also can just roll to dodge it. The timing is strict, but it's very possible. Also, 45% compared to death on other FS's. Mario's is pretty bad IMO.

All of the landmasters are good. Falco and Wolf should be in whatever tier is right below Sonic's. Fox's isn't as good, but it is still a good FS overall.

Whoever said you can just sidestep DK's is right. Even if he claps correctly, all you have to do is side step with the beat and you'll dodge every single wave. It's a shame, because the move is really good if it hits.

Edit: But, you must roll to dodge the clap soundwaves. Otherwise, they'll clip you at the end of your spotdodge IIRC.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's important to note that I said it was mediocre, but not worse than the ones below it (which it's not).

ftr:

Spoiler

 

[Diddy Kong]

PK Starstorm is also quite luck based I feel. It can either hit you with all blasts and get killed, or you only get hit once or twice.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

PK Starstorm is also quite luck based I feel. It can either hit you with all blasts and get killed, or you only get hit once or twice.

Definitely agree. You can't control this final smash at all, and no matter where you stand, the fireballs will rain everywhere on the stage. However, With Lucas, you don 't need as much luck because more fireballs come down with his FS when compared to Ness

 

[KuroganeHammer]

[yt]1dT-cN9tuY0[/yt]

Clearly Lucas' is the best.

 

[BSP]

It's important to note that I said it was mediocre, but not worse than the ones below it (which it's not).

ftr:

Spoiler

Ok, but still, it's so easy to dodge >.>

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Yeah...Mario's Final Smash...is just not good. Real easy to dodge.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ok, but still, it's so easy to dodge >.>

Keeping in mind that those hitboxes are a lot bigger than Bowser?

I wouldn't say they're "easy" to dodge.

 

[BSP]

Also, I don't agree with Fox > Wolf in the OP. They are tied at the least (I really think Wolf > Fox though)

Fox's LM is really good as long as it's on the ground. You can pretty much confirm a KO if you get the SB with him.

Same thing with Wolf. You get the SB, you're getting some KOs. Short time doesn't hurt you much for the first KO.

Now, in terms of getting a second one, I think Wolf > Fox because Wolf's hovering is much more of a threat compared to Fox's. In a 1 v 1, I'd put my money on Wolf's LS to get 2 kills with one SB. FFA, they're about on equal terms. Wolf probably won't get to do much, but Fox will get more damage on.

Also, have we considered how planking hits the LS? I haven't played with SBs in a while, but IIRC, a competent planker can make it difficult for starfox to do much damage.

@Aerodrome- I would. If your character can't jump over it, you can roll through it, and you may even be able to just AD through it depending on who you are.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

If I remember correctly. In terms of fire power isn't it Wolf, Fox, and then Falco?

Wolf was the strongest and had the same mobility as Falco.

Fox was the slowest but had decent attack but stronger than Falco.

Falco was the weakest but lasted the longest and had great mobility?

Something like that?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The blue line is approximately where the intangibility of Fox's roll starts, the end of it is where it ends. Mario Finale moves forward, although slowly. It might be possible if done perfectly, but other than that, no.

Now stop it.

Edit:

For the record, hitboxes are active when the landmaster is falling. All the landmaster has to do is go off the edge and GG would be planker. lulz.

Edit 2: To clarify the picture, keep in mind that the only way I could do it is by having fox in the MIDDLE of the hitbox, so to have that picture accurately, imagine the blue line is moved to the outer right edge of the hitbox and imagine Fox is in the middle.

 

[BSP]

Fox would just jump over. He's got great vertical mobility.

But still...you can roll through it XD

But anyway, that's right SupaS. Falco's mobility makes up for the weaker firepower imo.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Whoops. Forgot to mention Wolf's didn't last long. I believe it was 12 seconds?

 

[BSP]

Something like that, but the firepower + mobility more than makes up for it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Fox would just jump over. He's got great vertical mobility.

Jigglypuff can totally avoid damage from Olimar's. omg because one character can, totally trash tier! etc

About the rolling thing, I'm willing to place my bets that only Lucario could ever do it consistantly. Trying to roll through it is a deathwish.

 

[BSP]

If by deathwish, you mean taking ~23% if you screw up. But I'll agree that rolling isn't the best option.

What about ADs?

I just got through most of the finale with Peach's terrible AD taking about 4%

And Fox isn't the only character that can get vertical distance quickly. Lots of them characters can. Just think about it; lots of characters can gain height quickly.

And even if you do get caught at the top, it really doesn't do that much damage.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

phone post:

air dodges are bad

Just use the Final smash after their double jump.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I've never died to Mario Finale even when it hit me. SDI back and DI up-toward and you take like 14%. Not to mention SDIing toward after rolling to take 5%. Mario's is down there with Marth and Ness.

Any list of the Smashes alone isn't a good measure of the characters with final smashes added as a variable though. You have take into account ability to get the ball, ability to keep opponents away from it, ability to hold onto it, and the utility the Smash offers to the character in addition to what utility it removes. Not even going into the difference it has between stock and time, 1v1, 2v2, 3FA's, and FFA's. If you want to make a list, elaborate the conditions there of and take into account the variables I mentioned.

I still say MK's Smash alone is at least a C and MK with Smash Balls on is an S on the grounds that MK can easily get and hold onto the Final Smash, and that MK having that option in hand means his opponent does not, giving him far more control of the match than if he just used it right away like most characters do.

RANDUMASUTAA has an immediate, easy effect on the match, but unless you're playing at a very casual level, it doesn't mean they have an effect that lingers. Unless the get 2 Smash Balls or it's a 2 minute with anyone match, Spacies just have a good power FS. S tier Smash by itself? Arguably so. S tier as characters with Smash Balls? Falco probably, others not as much.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's too difficult to make a tier list like that. There are already too many variables in Brawl that decide who gets the Smash Ball, so it becomes impossible to rank them properly.

 

[Kink-Link5]

It'd be pretty easy if there was more data on Smash Ball tournaments to go off of.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Except there isn't and never will be.

 

[SmashChu]

I still owe this thread a video don't I?

It'd be pretty easy if there was more data on Smash Ball tournaments to go off of.

It is. Just look at all the ones you listed

Any list of the Smashes alone isn't a good measure of the characters with final smashes added as a variable though. You have take into account ability to get the ball, ability to keep opponents away from it, ability to hold onto it, and the utility the Smash offers to the character in addition to what utility it removes. Not even going into the difference it has between stock and time, 1v1, 2v2, 3FA's, and FFA's. If you want to make a list, elaborate the conditions there of and take into account the variables I mentioned.

You already mentioned 6 different things.

 

[BSP]

I think this list is just going off of the FS's themselves.

That being said, MK's is ok. It's 40% on hit and has good range. It's not a get smash ball, get KO like others though. I could see it as C as well.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

My list was, not the OP's though.

Like I said, too difficult because of how random the smash ball is.

 

[themanofpokemon]

I dont know if you kno if you kno this already,or if it is useful, but for snakes fs, if you dont fire, he automatically shoots after a few seconds.

 

[Kyoshi]

Hey, everyone!

As you may have surmised, I have been very busy. However, I have been watching and considering the different posts.

Note: Tier List has not yet been revised.

I will address things in more detail, but first, being the thoughtful type, I have a few thoughts to bounce off you:

Any list of the Smashes alone isn't a good measure of the characters ... You have take into account ability to get the ball, ability to keep opponents away from it, ability to hold onto it, and the utility the Smash offers to the character in addition to what utility it removes. Not even going into the difference it has between stock and time, 1v1, 2v2, 3FA's, and FFA's. If you want to make a list, elaborate the conditions thereof and take into account the variables I mentioned.

Thus is the list I made and am working to refine via this thread. It measures not the complete effectiveness of the fs by itself, but takes into account the listed factors, in particular a character's ability to gain the fs. The effectiveness of the smash itself is still the primary consideration.

Important for clarification:
This list measures the level of advantage gained by turning FS on.

Points discussed on this thread that I will soon address in more detail are as follow:

Major

Sonic v Falco
You have made a good case for Falco. I am debating which FS is better. In the end, I think it's pretty close - but wait, what's this? Falco can beat almost everyone to the smash ball any day of the week, so much so that even if his fs was terrible, he would be high tier? Bam. Falco winz. He'll be moving up. S tier will collapse into A tier, giving each tier the appearance of moving up.

Weegie Power
Again, just about every character that has you against the edge in smaller courses like FD can wreak havoc with their fs. I will grant that NZ shouldn't be in the same tier as Kirby Stew and Mario. That seems wrong. But that probably means, with the new tier arrangement, I'll be putting both of those in bottom tier and let DK keep ZSS company. Not that ZSS isn't worse (and yes, everyone I play, even CPUs, DI that one, as do I), since hers turns her into armored Samus.

Galaxia Fail
Just to clear things up, this list measures the level of advantage gained by turning fs on, not how good each character is overall when fs is turned on. Meta Knight has a final smash that makes me wistful of Mario's fs prowess. I don't care if he can command more authority and space better while clinging to it. So can Mario. I don't care if Weegie kills you against an edge with his fs. So does Mario. You've got to give me more.

Minor

Mario for bottom tier
I actually kill people with this one; I just get them directly behind me when I use it and it sucks them into the middle. It's still pretty situational, but I almost always kill someone, and that's more than I can say about Kirby, ICs, DK, Luc, ZSS, etc. That automatically disqualifies him from bottom tier. However, if you can prove that such tactics can be circumvented, I will listen.

DK Beats Beast
No. He's just bad. You can dodge about every beat with enough timing, so it does no damage and no knockback. Back home, we call that bad.
In fact, he's probably going down.

Ness v Lucas v the world
Yeah, they really can't kill anything or do damage, but they still get the fs a lot. I'm considering lowering them, though.

Wario, man
His fs truly is insane. Just to confirm that.

Marth's Critical Issue
Yeah, he does announce it and give you about three years to plan your roll/dodge. He'll be going down the list.
Note that he can still hit you in limited circumstances, his hit is always a OHKO, and he can potentially hit more than one player. But I just know this from using him.
When facing him, I only get hit by his fs when another character is holding me (and even then...). Needless to say, I feel no fear when he has a fs.

Diddy goes nuts
He's maneuverable enough to wipe you out, but if you don't think he can kill a room of players if he activates it at lower percentages, prove it. I am open to that possibility.
Don't forget about him potentially using bananas beforehand to make evasion even harder.

Fox
I have no idea what he was doing above Falco or Wolf either.

Requests for Information

The list will be looking at some revisions, but for the moment I want clarity (and maybe testing) in some ambiguous areas. I am a journalist, and I am busy often enough that I cannot test these things out. So if I could have information on the following, that would be helpful:

Damage Dealt Percentages
On everything, if possible.

Ice Climbers
I need details, specifically on whether or not and to what extent the iceberg's vector can be altered. Average damage on non-flying characters would also be appreciated.

Lucario
How does that spike go?

R.O.B.
Chain-grab kill possibilities (he can grab you while his fs is going).

Pokemon Trainer used Confusion!
Would someone find out how that fs works (in detail)? PT is one of my mains, and I still have no idea what will happen to everyone. All I know is that my teammates end up dead (team attack off) somehow because I activate my fs and bam! My teammate Bowser is suddenly somewhere under the stage, regardless of where he was beforehand. Every time. We finally agreed that I just couldn't use my fs in team battle. That doesn't make it a bad fs, but still ...it makes no sense...

Other Information
I need any other trivia, tactics and options regarding the final smashes, most notably the non-contentious ones, since I have received less info on them but have been quietly altering them. Yes, I know you can eat Diddy's peanuts and Yoshi spews flames when you don't shoot fireballs for a few seconds. I need stuff that you won't find on Smash Wiki. Thanks!

Testing on the part of anyone willing to help will be greatly appreciated. Posting of your videos would be invaluable too, but you certainly don't have to.
I'll take what I can get.

Preferred testing stages: Delfino Plaza, FD, Battlefield, Smashville, Corneria, Bridge, Yoshi's Island, Pokemon Stadium 1, Rainbow Cruise, Pictochat, WarioWare, Luigi's Mansion. Any number of those are fine, just tell me which ones you tested on. If you have tested all of those, you can do a variety check with Hyrule Temple, Pokemon Stadium 2, Flat Zone 2, Congo Jungle and Mushroom Kingdom (either). Custom courses resembling the preferred stages are also acceptable.

Thanks for the help! You guys have been great. I will continue to watch, and as things progress I will alter the tier list accordingly.

 

[Sleek Media]

Major

Sonic v Falco
You have made a good case for Falco. I am debating which FS is better. In the end, I think it's pretty close - but wait, what's this? Falco can beat almost everyone to the smash ball any day of the week, so much so that even if his fs was terrible, he would be high tier? Bam. Falco winz. He'll be moving up. S tier will collapse into A tier, giving each tier the appearance of moving up.

Weegie Power
Again, just about every character that has you against the edge in smaller courses like FD can wreak havoc with their fs. I will grant that NZ shouldn't be in the same tier as Kirby Stew and Mario. That seems wrong. But that probably means, with the new tier arrangement, I'll be putting both of those in bottom tier and let DK keep ZSS company. Not that ZSS isn't worse (and yes, everyone I play, even CPUs, DI that one, as do I), since hers turns her into armored Samus.

Galaxia Fail
Just to clear things up, this list measures the level of advantage gained by turning fs on, not how good each character is overall when fs is turned on. Meta Knight has a final smash that makes me wistful of Mario's fs prowess. I don't care if he can command more authority and space better while clinging to it. So can Mario. I don't care if Weegie kills you against an edge with his fs. So does Mario. You've got to give me more.

Minor

Mario for bottom tier
I actually kill people with this one; I just get them directly behind me when I use it and it sucks them into the middle. It's still pretty situational, but I almost always kill someone, and that's more than I can say about Kirby, ICs, DK, Luc, ZSS, etc. That automatically disqualifies him from bottom tier. However, if you can prove that such tactics can be circumvented, I will listen.

Sonic v Falco.
I still don't understand how this is even in question. Landmaster only moderately difficult to avoid, and unless you trip on top of the tank, you shouldn't be getting carried off the top. Sonic is a guarunteed kill. Landmaster is not. That's all.

Weegie
You give way too much credit to other FSs and too little to NZ. There is a massive gap between NZ and everything that isn't Super Sonic. You can't sidestep. You can't roll. You can't escape. It's big enough to completely cover multiple stages, and for the ones it can't, your opponent just has to be relatively close. It's not like Great Aether, Galaxia, Critical Hit, etc. Luigi is basically INVULNERABLE while he's holding the smash ball. If you approach him, you WILL eat a Negative Zone. The only reason it should be below Landmaster is if you factor in just how bad Weegie is at actually getting the smash ball.

Galaxia Fail?
What's with the double standard? You're factoring in the character's ability to get the FS, but not the options they gain by holding the FS? Like I mentioned above, being able to hold on to the ball and force an approach on your terms is a huge part of what makes FSs like NZ great. Luigi, MK, and Ike all enjoy a significant defensive advantage when holding the smash ball.

Mario for bottom tier.
I hate it, but I feel that's where his FS belongs. You can DI out of it, and the damage is poor even with a full hit. It's definitely possible to get kills if your opponent doesn't know how to escape (it looks pretty intimidating the first time), but being so slow and easy to evade (even Ganny can get over it) destroys any possible utility. I'll concede that DK and ZSS's FSs are equally bad in different ways.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The misinformation; it burns!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hello. My name is Kyoshi. I'm new here, and I registered primarily for discussion and proposing this list.

The Final Smashes Tier List is my idea for a categorization of ...well, final smashes into tiers. I feel such an evaluation would be useful to brawlers who play with final smashes on, and outside of the guide released for Brawl, which is not exactly the most accurate rating system out there (on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the best, it rates Meta Knight as 6 and Captain Falcon as 8, then puts Ganondorf as 6 - same ranking as Meta Knight, that's right - and Olimar as 5), there is currently no evaluation of final smashes besides differing, often uninformed popular opinion. Therefore, I feel as though there is a gaping need for such a categorization, and the tier list format seems the most adequate for expressing such ranks.

Characters in this tier list are not ranked upon how good they are as a whole with final smashes turned on; rather, they are ranked upon how good their final smash is and how easily they can obtain final smashes. In short, it measures the advantage characters would have if final smashes were turned on. This tier list measures only the level of the advantage a character would gain if final smashes were turned on, and therefore serves to rank that character's ability regarding final smashes - both in use and obtainment. My biggest beef with this is that the Smashball randomly floats around. If it spawns next to player A, then moves over to player B, player B will almost always get the Smashball, regardless of who they are (read: Ganondorf).

If two characters have a nearly identical final smash, how easily they can obtain the smash should be considered above any slight advantages in the smash (ex: Toon Link's projectiles make him much better at obtaining final smashes than Link, so he places above Link, even though Link's final smash is slightly better). If a character is so good at getting final smashes that no one else can really get them when that character is around (ex: Pit's arrows, which can score the final hit on a smash ball with ease), it does not matter as much if other characters have a better final smash. Inversely, if a character can't get a smash ball to save his life (Ganondorf comes to mind), how great his final smash may or may not be is not considered as thoroughly.

For this tier list, there are only 5 main tiers, as the final smashes are really only divisible by 5 major categories. There is a "Sonic" tier reserved for Sonic, since he is the only character in the game with a final smash that, in its deadly part, cannot be avoided (provided the user knows what he's doing). The "Fail" tier is for ZSS, since DI prevents her final smash from doing much damage - and she transforms into Samus, making things worse for her in the long run.

Nolimar is included in this tier list because, even though he has the same final smash as Olimar, he is less capable of obtaining that final smash. Likewise, the PT characters are divided by how capable they are of obtaining a final smash.

This thread is open to suggestions and critiques. Brief explanations are provided, so please read before suggesting. This is the current Final Smashes Tier List:

S: Sonic Tier
Guess who

A: Top Tier
Falco
Wolf
Fox

B: High Tier
Diddy
Wario
Yoshi
Pikachu
Samus
Sheilda
Zelda
Sheik
Snake

C: Mid Tier
Pit
Bowser
King Dedede
Lucas
Ness
R.O.B.
Olimar
Marth
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Toon Link
Link
Ike
Captain Falcon
Peach

D: Low Tier
Mr. Game & Watch
Pokémon Trainer
Ivysaur
Squirtle
Charizard
Luigi
Mario
Meta Knight
Kirby
Nolimar

E: Bottom Tier
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Donkey Kong

F: Fail Tier
Zero Suit Samus

Brief explanations for each placing are provided below.

S: Sonic Tier

NOW I'LL SHOW YOU!
Sonic receives an epic kill move in the form of this virtually all-powerful final smash. Given proper control, Sonic will be unavoidable. He can hover in place for sidesteppers, airdodgers and ledgegrabbers; he goes through shields; he can track through the air; he's faster than everything; he can even track z-rolls and tech rolls. His is the only final smash in the game where if he gets it (not unlikely), and he is skilled at it, no amount of cleverness will save his opponents. The killing segments of all other final smashes can be avoided in some way, shape or form. This one is unstoppable and unavoidable.

A: Top Tier

Falco
If he prefers the air, why doesn't he stick to it? His Landmaster may reach the skies faster than those of his brethren, but otherwise he has the same story: easily obtains final smash; personally, I prefer the [star finish as I say this line]; anything below me gets crushed; everything else gets fried or carried to its doom; you can run, but you can't hide. As with the other landmasters, you can avoid this one, but it's about as difficult as preventing him from breaking the smash ball open in the first place.

Wolf
As with Fox, Wolf should not be able to obtain such a potent final smash as easily as he does. His Landmaster does not last as long, but it is notably more maneuverable, powerful and punishing to those who fail to avoid it.

Fox
For someone with a final smash as difficult to avoid as this one, Fox has no business being able to obtain final smashes so easily. His final smash can kill on his way up, his way down, whenever he spins, his laser, carrying people through the top of the screen, hitting would-be ledgehoggers at the right times ...no matter where the opponent flees, this final smash has something nasty for him. It can be avoided, but not easily - especially if the Fox player is skilled at using it.

B: High Tier

Diddy
Peanuts never looked so good. Diddy doesn't find obtaining a final smash particularly difficult, and a skilled jetpack user will have no problem finishing off even the most avid evaders. As an added bonus, he has a few seconds to eat the peanuts afterward while the smoke is clearing. Its only drawback is its lackluster maneuvering; although he moves quickly enough to each side, his shots can be predictable at times. Also, opponents are just as capable of eating the peanuts as he is, rewarding successful evasion with more than survival. Nonetheless, in the proper hands, this final smash is almost guaranteed to pull out multiple KOs in FFA, and it is difficult to imagine a player surviving the entire smash in 1v1.

Wario
Garlic is apparently underrated. Wario's ability to obtain final smashes is tremendous, and his already superior air game is only intensified by a newfound ability to fly. A skilled Wario will eventually catch and destroy his foes with this final smash. Its only downside is the fact that killing all the opponents on a stage with it can be kind of tricky; the focus of this final smash is generally on one person, meaning it could run out before he has a chance to kill everyone. Nonetheless, if he has the proper skill, it should be next to impossible to escape his clutches for the entire final smash - and once you get hit once, he can combo you into oblivion.

Yoshi
Here is evidence that smash balls contain Koopa shells. Yoshi's final smash wreaks general havoc, and while it is easier to kill multiple foes with this one (and even easier to kill one), it is not as easy to kill someone from zero percent with it. Still, Yoshi's hardhitting moves, egg toss and super-armored second jump make it easy for him to catch final smashes. Expect to see (and be killed by) this dragon when smash balls are on.

Pikachu
Pikachu obtains final smashes very easily, and his is virtually impossible to avoid if the Pikachu player is skilled enough with it. The move cuts corners and can change speeds quickly, planking to avoid it will not work for long - the only thing this final smash lacks is the ability to kill characters efficiently from low percents; it must stack up damage a little before it can kill, meaning it won't always kill everyone on the stage.

Samus
She can use projectiles to break smash balls with ease, and although avoiding her final smash - which she can angle - is as simple as getting behind her, getting caught in it usually spells doom. Best of all, she transforms into ZSS. Moving up a couple tiers is always a plus.

Sheilda
Get the final smash as Zelda and switch to Sheik.

Zelda
Din's Fire + good aim + good timing + instant kill power = springtime for Ganon. Anyone caught in the path of this arrow will die at higher percentages. Unfortunately, with proper prediction This is true for everyone. :/ , it can be dodged far too easily.

Sheik
She can't obtain the final smash as easily as Zelda, but her arrow has primarily vertical knockback (it's horizontal), meaning it kills more easily and suffers less from skilled DI.

Snake
It's showtime! Provided the opponent has enough skill in repeatedly jumping while airdodging, there's really nothing Snake can do to nail anyone with this. (He should have gone for the nuke.) However, he obtains smash balls with such ridiculous ease that it doesn't really matter; other players will be hard-pressed to pull final smashes while he is around. Even his taunt automatically breaks open a smash ball Blatant lies.. His "show" may not be a summer blockbuster, but there will be plenty of sequels.

C: Mid Tier

Pit
Unless you listen closely, it kind of sounds like he's saying "Putrid ...blueberry!" What makes this interesting is how accurately it describes the effectiveness of his final smash. Palutena's "army" wishes it was a poor man's Lati@s. Nonetheless, Pit's arrows make him so adept at breaking smash balls that entire matches can pass without opponents getting one in his presence Seems like theorycrafting.. Pit is a smash ball machine.

Bowser
For 10 glorious seconds, Bowser reigns. He takes damage, but he doesn't flinch, and players die left and right. Too bad he stinks at getting the final smashes. Powerful moves, bad mobility. At least he can spike with his d-tilt.

King Dedede
The King's "Big Gay Dance" is variable; sometimes it kills with ease, and other times it's a dud. Still, he can obtain final smashes very easily with his waddle-dees, so expect to get ricrole'd fairly often.

Lucas
Giant comets rain from the sky, decimating damaged characters with sangfroid. With enough skill and timing, all the comets can (usually) can be dodged, but Lucas's superior ability to break smash balls means you'll be seeing meteor showers on a regular basis.

Ness
Although the boy wonder's final smash is arguarbly superior to that of his friend, his method of obtainment is not. That being said, he still obtains final smashes pretty easily, and this one will keep foes on their toes.

R.O.B.
He obtains final smashes with little effort, but things go downhill from there. Running around with laser beams while using your moves and grabs is awesome, but not awesome enough to be considered a final smash. Oh well. At least he'll have a monopoly on smash balls. He can punish plankers powerfully, and he'll sometimes kill a person or two with this one.

Olimar
In addition to obtaining smash balls with relative ease, Olimar enjoys a final smash that deals completely unavoidable damage. (If only that unavoidable damage exceeded 16%.) The killing portion of the move is easier to avoid (depending on the course), but the initial attack can be used strategically to spike someone or ground a victim. Just beware of using this final smash in a custom course with no middle.

Marth
The critical thing about this move is the fact that it guarantees a KO. If you hit with it, it usually only affects one person (unless they're bunched together), but they're dead. He can also use it to recover. His methods of obtainment aren't stellar, but they aren't terrible either. Overall, Marth has a solid final smash.

Ganondorf
Although he literally can't obtain a smash ball to save his life, killing every player on the stage with his final smash is not difficult; if the Ganon player knows what he's doing and obtains the final smash, expect to see some casualties across the stage.

Jigglypuff
Assuming Jigglypuff somehow breaks a smash ball, she has to get under the stage to make it effective. If she does, however, the results are devastating.

Toon Link
Projectiles make this smash easier to get than others, and Toon Link has better projectiles than Link. Now if it were only easy to hit with...

Link
...The smash itself only targets one person, and the victim won't always die. But hey, that's okay, because Link players are used to disappointment.

Ike
He's not too bad at getting final smashes, and if he connects with this one, he'll find himself killing at least one foe more often than not Doesn't kill lightweights until about 40% LOL. Beware of being predictable, however, as this smash can be dodged altogether too easily, and won't always KO (depending on the stage and damage).

Captain Falcon
Oh, how he wishes he were better at obtaining final smashes. His is actually a decent finisher, although it can be difficult to catch opponents with it if they have good prediction. Still, watch out for Falcon's peculiar hitbox on this move.

Peach
She brings new meaning to the term "final smash," as she must literally use a smash move to kill opponents with this one. On the upside, she can deal immense damage and heal with peaches, so if no one was quick enough to hop into the groundless air or grab a ledge, she can often fully recover and give them a spanking. She has a variety of options for obtaining final smashes, but don't expect domination in this regard.

D: Low Tier

Mr. Game & Watch
Although it is undoubtedly terrifying to transform into a giant octopus, the fun ends there, as Mr. Game & Watch will find himself hopping around ineffectively. His tentacles can hurt and (at higher percentages) kill people, but that's about it. He isn't bad at obtaining smash balls, but he's no champion either. Still, it is fun to see G & W occasionally kill himself as an octopus.

Pokémon Trainer
The nagging question when using his final smash is "where did everyone go?" People who were far away are now in your beam, some characters are far above it for no reason - and the characters who looked like they were in front of you are now scattered about, minding their own business in random areas of the stage. This smash is difficult to figure. At least it kills whoever gets caught in it. Most of the time.

Ivysaur
He isn't terrible at obtaining final smashes; his side-b continues after hitting people, and his moves can break smash balls with excellent range and power. All he needs is a better final smash.

Squirtle
He's more mobile than Ivysaur, but good luck trying to break a smash ball open; his moves just aren't very piercing to a smash ball. Still, don't count him out; he has more than enough speed to beat someone to the punch.

Charizard
His moves can break open a smash ball very easily, but he'll find catching one to be difficult. That being said, his Up-B is fantastic for this purpose if properly executed.

Luigi
It's called the negative zone for a reason. Luigi can't kill squat with this final smash He can kill Jigglypuff with his taunt, but it's always fun to watch him try. He isn't bad at obtaining final smashes, which helps his situation considerably. Besides, one never knows when the right opportunity will come along; edgeguarding opponents is easy with this final smash.

Mario
Further proof that Sakurai hates Mario. Use this move on someone standing directly behind Mario and death may occur. Otherwise, don't expect too much.

Meta Knight
If you want to "know my power," studying Meta Knight's final smash isn't the best way to do it. He isn't bad at breaking smash balls, but his final smash is so bad at catching and KOing that he might as well not even bother. That being said, the move isn't a total failure; one can still arrange for a premature death with it. He'll just have to work a little harder and stack some damage first.

Kirby
Kirby stew is missing its can of whoop***. If this smash wasn't so easy to avoid, it might be worth something. If it actually killed people inept enough to be caught by it, you could say it was decent. But this smash is awful. Its damage varies from disappointing to more disappointing, and only the items make a feeble attempt to compensate. Kirby himself can obtain final smashes easily, but not easily enough to redeem this horrific final smash. To top it off, the concept of the final smash is just disturbing. (Mmm! Penguin stew! With a side of Pikmin! And some Falcon lunch!) The items are the only things keeping this out of bottom tier.

Nolimar
Like Olimar, but with no clear way to obtain a final smash. (Pity smashes don't count.)

E: Bottom Tier

Lucario
WOTCH THE EPICFAIL!

Ice Climbers
While the damaging segment of this move is unavoidable, there is no kill segment. I guess the ICs themselves are supposed to pick up the slack.

Donkey Kong
If good ole DK manages to obtain a final smash, his next quest will be the timed tapping of the "A" button. If he does that correctly, he'll be rewarded with ...um ...wait, is this final smash even designed to kill people? It might be good for edgeguarding...

F: Fail Tier

Zero Suit Samus
Although ZSS obtains final smashes easily enough, using one will end up helping the opponent more than ZSS in the long run by turning her into Samus. The final smash itself does virtually nothing thanks to DI, and she is briefly vulnerable after the transformation. She is better off just looking cooler than usual and keeping it (her neutral-B won't be missed terribly), as this will prevent other smash balls from appearing.

~

Discuss away!

Blatant lies in red.

Edit: Oops, double post. Xeylode should fix it imo.

 

[Kyoshi]

Aerodrome, the tier list has not yet been updated. Much of the information is therefore out of date. I greatly appreciate the feedback, though. I'm working on updating the list.

The Sheik thing was actually a typo; I meant horizontal but typed vertical. Thanks for catching it.

Otherwise, looking for varied feedback. Some of the things you pointed out are already on the to-do list for modifying. Some were new and require explanation/proof on your part. You can't just call something a blatant lie without proof...

A few quick notes:
»I was already going to move Ness and Lucas, and R.O.B. was already going to move up. But you had no way of knowing that, so thank you anyway.
»The list really does measure those two things. As stated, the other variables are lesser considerations (if considerations at all; I'm debating that with myself). I said they would be involved in my last post, but I might take that back. Regardless, remember that the OP has not yet been updated since my last post. (Other than correcting the typo and putting Wolf above Fox, of course.)
»Pit's arrows do score the final hit. Good aim and good timing pay off.
»Not theorycrafting, just experience. But I may still take that out - it does come across as an exaggeration.
»DI prevents ZSS's fs from doing much damage. If you can prove to me that substantial damage is inflicted within the first half-second of the move, I'll concede that. Otherwise, DI makes it ineffective. I know this from experience on both sides of the ball and observation.
»Regarding the landmasters being avoidable in the hands of pros - can someone test this one? I really am uncertain as to how avoidable Wolf and Falco's landmaster is. Fox's would be much easier to avoid.
»I was confused as to how you disagree with the one for Pika; are you saying it can kill people from low percents efficiently, that it has other problems or both? If so, I will need some proof. I am no expert in Pika's fs department.
»Umm ...Samus has a directional fs. Getting behind her helps in avoiding it. Feel free to disprove that one. (Maybe getting directly behind her fails? Explain your objection.)
»For your Zelda critique - yeah, I thought about that when I wrote it. It should be eschewed, but I'm trying to think of a way to improve that smash's description first.
»Snake's taunt does open smash balls - that, or the timing mechanism altered results and I was misinformed, etc. I need testing proof on that one. He does obtain smash balls very easily, as almost everything he hits it with breaks it.
»I'll have to check with King Dedede; you may be right, but we'll see. A demonstration either way would be nice.
»You'll have to give me a more detailed report and demonstration regarding Ike's fs so I can gather more concrete details. Stage choice may also be involved (obviously).
»You'll have to demonstrate how Squirtle and Charizard got mixed up so I can see that. Not that I don't believe you - I just need to see how that goes. My experience with them has been a bit different.
»Regarding Luigi, see my response to Sleek (below) and general responses/vids posted on the matter by SmashChu.
»DK is lucky if he damages you significantly (see avoiding final smashes online). You'll have to prove otherwise. Also, why is "timed tapping of the 'A' button" in red? What, you think that's not part of the smash? Are we talking about the same smash here? And why is "might be good for edgeguarding" in red? Is it bad for edgeguarding?

Overall, I'm looking to overhaul the character descriptions and provide more detailed reasoning for placements and claims (vid links are good), as well as rearrange a few placements.

Sonic v Falco.
I still don't understand how this is even in question. Landmaster only moderately difficult to avoid, and unless you trip on top of the tank, you shouldn't be getting carried off the top. Sonic is a guarunteed kill. Landmaster is not. That's all.

You can duke this out with Aerodrome.

And yes, Sonic is a guaranteed kill. Ultimately, so is Warioman - with proper skill, no single player can avoid him for long. This high on the list, we're also looking for multiple kill capacity (which Sonic definitely has - thus his high placement). Sonic's obtainment isn't stellar, though.

Weegie
You give way too much credit to other FSs and too little to NZ. There is a massive gap between NZ and everything that isn't Super Sonic. You can't sidestep. You can't roll. You can't escape. It's big enough to completely cover multiple stages, and for the ones it can't, your opponent just has to be relatively close. It's not like Great Aether, Galaxia, Critical Hit, etc. Luigi is basically INVULNERABLE while he's holding the smash ball. If you approach him, you WILL eat a Negative Zone. The only reason it should be below Landmaster is if you factor in just how bad Weegie is at actually getting the smash ball.

You can roll, you can escape, and it's not big enough to cover most stages (thus the emphasis on edguarding in the debates). This has been covered, there were vids, I have had this fs used on me many times and, thanks to z-rolling, have yet to die from it a single time in my entire life, even when I was a noob. You act as if Luigi can immediately move around after using it and no one can move in it. In this case, it would be a pretty impressive fs. But this is not the case, so I never mind having to "eat a Negative Zone," since the only damage I get is from flowers.

I think the more damage you have, the longer you stay asleep - but should an fs as good as you're claiming it is be that reliant on prior damage?

Galaxia Fail?
What's with the double standard? You're factoring in the character's ability to get the FS, but not the options they gain by holding the FS? Like I mentioned above, being able to hold on to the ball and force an approach on your terms is a huge part of what makes FSs like NZ great. Luigi, MK, and Ike all enjoy a significant defensive advantage when holding the smash ball.

I am factoring that in - but in a small, small way. Most of the characters get the nice defensive boost, including Mario, so the defensive boosts often just sort of cancel each other out. I'll grant I could stand to factor in how much of a defensive boost characters like Ike get v Characters like ICs. I might make that a more significant factor. As I said, the claim that I was factoring in all of those things comes with the notification that I have not yet updated the tier list and that I still put obtainment and effectiveness as the two primary considerations.

I'm willing to hear remonstrations that the other factors should be considered just as important.

By the way, I usually head toward Luigi so I can roll out from his center no matter where he uses NZ. So his fs is defensive in that it forces an approach, not because no one wants to go near him. That being said, in a big course, it's not a bad idea to clear some distance.

Mario for bottom tier.
I hate it, but I feel that's where his FS belongs. You can DI out of it, and the damage is poor even with a full hit. It's definitely possible to get kills if your opponent doesn't know how to escape (it looks pretty intimidating the first time), but being so slow and easy to evade (even Ganny can get over it) destroys any possible utility. I'll concede that DK and ZSS's FSs are equally bad in different ways.

Mario's fs is very situational and doesn't really kill unless they're directly behind you when you use it, but that's still not as bad as it could be. It's really bad - but it's not the worst, and the situations required in order to kill someone with it are similar to those of Mario's bair, which is why I can usually pull it off. It goes low, but not as the worst.

Overall, great feedback.