FINAL RESULTS! Wii U controller latency comparison (GC vs. Gamepad, Pro, etc.)

[Squirty]

Hey dudes and dudettes! I have results!

Summary

In a low wireless noise environment:

• Approx. 55% chance a Wii U Pro controller will register 1 frame later than a GameCube controller.
• A less than 1% chance a Wii U Pro controller will register 2 frames later than a GameCube controller.

Detailed Results

• 438 / 1002 button presses registered on the same frame for all controllers (~44%)
• 556 / 1002 button presses registered the Wii U Pro controller one frame later than the GameCube controllers (~55%)
• 7 / 1002 button presses registered the Wii U Pro controller two frames later than the GameCube controllers (less than 1%)
• 1 / 1002 button presses registered a single GameCube controller one frame earlier (much less than 1%)

Some thoughts and commentary...

I'm not a competitive player myself, so I'm really not sure how often certain situations really come up in battle, but here are some notes that might be useful:

• Basic theory for comparison is well explained by @TeyahDL: http://www.teyah.net/sticklag/overview.html
  
• The fact that the Wii U Pro controller is slower will not affect a players ability to perform combos, but instead will only affect situations where the player must react immediately (as soon as they possibly can) -- Only when they need to react immediately will a faster controller give them a possible one or two frame advantage.
• The fact that the Wii U Pro controller sometimes registers 0, 1, or 2 frames after the GameCube controller suggests that there is a variance in latency on either the Wii U Pro, GameCube, or both.
• If the variance in latency is primarily held by the Wii U Pro controller (likely, as it is wireless), this may affect a players ability to perform to-the-frame combos. Measurable variance seems unlikely to occur, mind you.
  
• If the Wii U Pro controller had always registered 0 or 1 frame after the GameCube controller, we could have assumed the Wii U Pro controller was ~ 9.3ms slower than the GameCube controller -- Except that sometimes the Wii U Pro controller would register 2 frames later, so this suggests that it's variance causes it to sometimes be at least 16.7ms slower. (please double check this math if you can)
  
• The GameCube controller may some variable latency built in as well. This documentation suggests that input from a GameCube controller (on a GameCube, mind you) is polled every 6ms or so, which could have contributed to the variance we saw when comparing against a Wii U Pro controller.

Thanks to everyone for encouraging me to do this test! I feel pretty bad it took me so long to do it, but I'm certain these results are very accurate. Happy smashing!

(I also plan to have some details on how I assembled the circuit for testing controllers posted sometime before the end of the year -- I'll edit when I have them. If you're looking to test some controllers and want the part list for the circuit, just message me and I'll get back to you!)

----------

[original post]

Hey dudes and dudettes,

I'm thinking of doing a latency and responsiveness comparison between the wired Gamecube controller (with adapter) and the Wii U Gamepad/Pro controller to see if there is a measurable difference with the 1200fps camera that I have (Nikon J1).

Anyone interested?

Here's a proof of concept with my 3DS:

https://youtu.be/JEmmBj4itZ0

and the file if you want to scrub through frames: allenwp.com/smash-latency/3DSSmashLatency.mp4
(sorry, copy and paste links 'cause I'm a n00b around here ;P)

Here's a very brief rundown on how the comparison would work:

I would video two controllers, one gamecube and the other gamepad/pro, being pressed at the same time and see if there is any frame offset between characters reacting on screen. The 1200fps video would show proof that both controllers were pressed within the same 1/1200th of a second (or 1/20th of a 60fps game frame). This would mean I should expect about a 1 in 20 chance of getting bad results due to the game sampling within the 1/1200s grey area. This assumes that game logic samples the controller only 60 times a second.

If more than 1 in 20 videos, on average, are showing one controller to be slower than the other, then we'll know for sure that one is actually slower than the other. If there is less than or equal to 1 in 20 videos that show a dependency, then we'll know that they're pretty close to equivalent latency (within 0.833ms +/- statistical error).

Again, let me know if you're interested -- I'll be much more likely to do this if I know that it's for more than my own personal interest.

 

[Squirty]

One other thing regarding the test rig: I actually haven't proven a method to make button presses at 1/1200th of a second just yet. In the video, it was taking me a little less than two frames (2/1200th of a second) to press the button down... But I've got an idea that might allow me to press the button faster without breaking my controllers... if the other rig doesn't work out, then I know I can at least make a button press at 2/1200th of a second (1/10th of a game frame), which will still show if there is a considerable difference between the controllers.

 

[popsofctown]

This info would be very much of interest to me. I think even fractions of a frame can make a little bit of difference down the line so it's useful to inform one's controller choice with this data.

 

[wmo_]

I researched this, IIRC at least the Pro controller uses the newest version of bluetooth, apparently the latency is minimum 6ms, usually 12ms max, average at 8 or so. I don't have the links handy but I found other sites where people wanted to know the latency of bluetooth, and yeah it seems like it's around 6-12ms. Also the GC controller wouldn't be 0ms since it's wired, the device is USB which means it has a polling rate. 125hz/250/500/1000, the latency equals 8ms/4ms/2ms/1ms. I highly doubt it's 1000 since only high end gaming equipment focuses on 1000hz USB. It's probably 500hz or 250hz, which is 2ms or 4ms. None of these even hit one frame in game at 60fps, so yeah.

I am probably using the Pro controller because the latency is so low. Most TV's will be adding tons of latency anyways, depending on what you have.

 

[Gawain]

Most TV's will be adding tons of latency anyways, depending on what you have.

I think this is potentially going to be important. I am somewhat concerned about the latency issue in this regard more than I am in the controllers. Compounded together it can be annoying. I've seen some serious latency on some people's setups.

 

[wmo_]

I think this is potentially going to be important. I am somewhat concerned about the latency issue in this regard more than I am in the controllers. Compounded together it can be annoying. I've seen some serious latency on some people's setups.

check displaylag.com and rtings.com. I imagine tournies use around 23" LCD's, so gaming monitors are around 10ms. I used rtings and found a 55" LED TV with like 30ms input lag. I need a new TV and I figured I might as well get one with low input. If you care less about picture quality or other things, I think there's some large TV's under 20ms too.

 

[Gawain]

check displaylag.com and rtings.com. I imagine tournies use around 23" LCD's, so gaming monitors are around 10ms. I used rtings and found a 55" LED TV with like 30ms input lag. I need a new TV and I figured I might as well get one with low input. If you care less about picture quality or other things, I think there's some large TV's under 20ms too.

My monitor is fairly decent, I get 10 ms of display lag on it so I'm good on my end. What I'm concerned about though is the greater public. I don't think a lot of people play fighting games(the ones that do already care about this stuff) so they don't realize how bad their display lag is, but lots of people play Smash and haven't had to deal with this before. It'll be interesting to see.

Edit: That's a cool site though.

 

[Squirty]

I researched this, IIRC at least the Pro controller uses the newest version of bluetooth, apparently the latency is minimum 6ms, usually 12ms max, average at 8 or so. I don't have the links handy but I found other sites where people wanted to know the latency of bluetooth, and yeah it seems like it's around 6-12ms. Also the GC controller wouldn't be 0ms since it's wired, the device is USB which means it has a polling rate. 125hz/250/500/1000, the latency equals 8ms/4ms/2ms/1ms. I highly doubt it's 1000 since only high end gaming equipment focuses on 1000hz USB. It's probably 500hz or 250hz, which is 2ms or 4ms. None of these even hit one frame in game at 60fps, so yeah.

I am probably using the Pro controller because the latency is so low. Most TV's will be adding tons of latency anyways, depending on what you have.

Thanks for the details wmo_ -- These numbers will be helpful as a baseline of what to expect!

Now that competitive smash is about to make the move completely away from analogue signals with CRT TVs, the most important thing that players will need to be able to do, regarding dealing with hardware, is quickly adapt to different audio/video output latencies. TVs can be expected to have somewhere between 16-40ms (maybe less if you get a really pro TV that doesn't buffer a full frame). 1

But, different latencies between controllers has a different meaning:

Smash Bros probably polls controller states at 60Hz (can someone verify?). This means that if one controller is slower (even by a microsecond), it could end up missing this frame's controller poll, while the other one doesn't. This would mean that if one controller is slightly slower, it may end up being a full frame slower (16ms slower, something the human eye can detect).

If the difference between controller latency is very small (let's say 1 ms), there will be a low chance that one controller's input will register on a different frame than the other. If the latency difference is high (let's say 13ms), then there is a high chance that one controller's input will register on a different frame than the other.

This type of speed only maters in a situation where you want to react as fast as possible to a scenario that comes up in gameplay -- Specifically where you suddenly need to get your input registered for the next frame and waiting two frames will be devastating. Pro tip #1: Never let yourself get into this situation where you suddenly need to react with input on the registers on the next frame... But if you do get into this situation, this is where that fraction of a millisecond of latency could be the win/loose factor.

But this all assumes that SSB Wii U will poll for input only 60 times a second. Maybe I should be asking the balanced brawl or project M peeps to see if they know if the controllers are actually sampled only once per 1/60 second...

1 Also, if you want to get super-technical, the input lag ratings on displaylag.com aren't quite right (I've talked to the site-owner about this... The tool he uses to test monitors is quite limited and he isn't reading it entirely "correctly"... there's a whole debate around what "input lag" even is (whether it includes the signal's frame duration or not, but whatever). Anyway, end result is: You need to add around 1/3 of a frame onto the "AVG" results on that site, 'cause the input lag should actually be a little less than the minimum that the leo bodnar tool reports.

 

[TTYK]

Hey dudes and dudettes,

I'm thinking of doing a latency and responsiveness comparison between the wired Gamecube controller (with adapter) and the Wii U Gamepad/Pro controller to see if there is a measurable difference with the 1200fps camera that I have (Nikon J1).

Anyone interested?

Here's a proof of concept with my 3DS:

and the file if you want to scrub through frames: allenwp.com/smash-latency/3DSSmashLatency.mp4
(sorry, copy and paste links 'cause I'm a n00b around here ;P)

Here's a very brief rundown on how the comparison would work:

I would video two controllers, one gamecube and the other gamepad/pro, being pressed at the same time and see if there is any frame offset between characters reacting on screen. The 1200fps video would show proof that both controllers were pressed within the same 1/1200th of a second (or 1/20th of a 60fps game frame). This would mean I should expect about a 1 in 20 chance of getting bad results due to the game sampling within the 1/1200s grey area. This assumes that game logic samples the controller only 60 times a second.

If more than 1 in 20 videos, on average, are showing one controller to be slower than the other, then we'll know for sure that one is actually slower than the other. If there is less than or equal to 1 in 20 videos that show a dependency, then we'll know that they're pretty close to equivalent latency (within 0.833ms +/- statistical error).

Again, let me know if you're interested -- I'll be much more likely to do this if I know that it's for more than my own personal interest.

Please do! I would like to test to see if the pro controller U is viable. Maybe in tourneys this would open up more options for controllers.

 

[Gawain]

Thanks for the details wmo_ -- These numbers will be helpful as a baseline of what to expect!

Now that competitive smash is about to make the move completely away from analogue signals with CRT TVs, the most important thing that players will need to be able to do, regarding dealing with hardware, is quickly adapt to different audio/video output latencies. TVs can be expected to have somewhere between 16-40ms (maybe less if you get a really pro TV that doesn't buffer a full frame). 1

But, different latencies between controllers has a different meaning:

Smash Bros probably polls controller states at 60Hz (can someone verify?). This means that if one controller is slower (even by a microsecond), it could end up missing this frame's controller poll, while the other one doesn't. This would mean that if one controller is slightly slower, it may end up being a full frame slower (16ms slower, something the human eye can detect).

If the difference between controller latency is very small (let's say 1 ms), there will be a low chance that one controller's input will register on a different frame than the other. If the latency difference is high (let's say 13ms), then there is a high chance that one controller's input will register on a different frame than the other.

This type of speed only maters in a situation where you want to react as fast as possible to a scenario that comes up in gameplay -- Specifically where you suddenly need to get your input registered for the next frame and waiting two frames will be devastating. Pro tip #1: Never let yourself get into this situation where you suddenly need to react with input on the registers on the next frame... But if you do get into this situation, this is where that fraction of a millisecond of latency could be the win/loose factor.

But this all assumes that SSB Wii U will poll for input only 60 times a second. Maybe I should be asking the balanced brawl or project M peeps to see if they know if the controllers are actually sampled only once per 1/60 second...

1 Also, if you want to get super-technical, the input lag ratings on displaylag.com aren't quite right (I've talked to the site-owner about this... The tool he uses to test monitors is quite limited and he isn't reading it entirely "correctly"... there's a whole debate around what "input lag" even is (whether it includes the signal's frame duration or not, but whatever). Anyway, end result is: You need to add around 1/3 of a frame onto the "AVG" results on that site, 'cause the input lag should actually be a little less than the minimum that the leo bodnar tool reports.

I think that at most FGC events these days they are using monitors and not actual TV sets since they tend to have less latency issues. I seem to recall something like this when I was at Evo this year.

 

[popsofctown]

What? I sure as hell hope the smash community isn't "moving away from CRTs". There's still plenty of CRTs out there and they are the best setups, and they're getting cheaper and cheaper.

 

[TTYK]

What? I sure as hell hope the smash community isn't "moving away from CRTs". There's still plenty of CRTs out there and they are the best setups, and they're getting cheaper and cheaper.

What is crt?

 

[popsofctown]

Cathode Ray Tube. TVs that predate LCD and plasma.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Cathode Ray Tube. TVs that predate LCD and plasma.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Wii U output a digital signal natively? I'm not the best at display tech knowledge, but I thought that any time you go from digital to analog / analog to digital, you get conversion lag, and I've never heard of a CRT with an HDMI input.

 

[popsofctown]

Well that's sad to hear.

 

[Squirty]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Wii U output a digital signal natively? I'm not the best at display tech knowledge, but I thought that any time you go from digital to analog / analog to digital, you get conversion lag, and I've never heard of a CRT with an HDMI input.

Wii U outputs both analogue and digital natively (it's your choice), but only one at a time (for example, you can't get analogue audio while outputting to hdmi, even though the connectors are separate).

Actually, as crazy as this sounds, the WIi U is capable of 1080i over component. I believe there must be some HD CRTs out there which will actually accept this signal natively, allowing for input lag that is probably on the order of about 0.5ms, which is around what a CRT usually has for input lag ( source: prad.de/en/monitore/specials/inputlag/inputlag-part13.html )

I don't think everyone will agree that it's better to loose the resolution and play on 480i TVs. I also don't think everyone will agree that everyone should go out and buy 1080i CRT TVs (where do you even get one?) just to have a more constant "competitive-grade" display latency. This is the reason that I believe that SSB Wii U will mean a transition to digital, higher latency variance, displays.

I think it would be cool if everyone started using 1080i CRTs for competitions, but at that point, I would prefer if TV manufacturers would just stop making ****ty TVs that always buffer their signals. Oculus has proven that LCDs are capable of much more than what display manufacturers give to their end users.

As a side note, the reason I know about 1080i output from wii u is: Back before I had an HDMI receiver, I used a 1080i signal over analogue component cables to my digital 1080P sony braivia projector, because I needed analogue audio. This is would introduce some lag, as it's a digital projector that needed to convert and deinterlace the analogue input into its own display method. I did this solely because if I ran the HDMI straight to the projector at the time, I had no way of getting the analogue audio signal that needed. Heh. I was blown away that the projector and wii u even supported 1080i over component!

 

[wmo_]

The CRTs need to go away.

it made sense with Melee and Brawl since they took analog signals and using any modern LCD would cause problems due to the analog to digital conversion. You don't want any extra unnecessary input lag especially for a game like Melee.

now that we have the Wii U with HDMI, using good gaming TV's or monitors will be the only way to go. Good gaming monitors have around 10ms lag in total, almost nothing. Not only are CRT's much bigger, they're getting harder and harder to find since no one uses them anymore and they're getting tossed in the trash. Think about a tournament organizer, it's 100x easier to order 20 Asus 23" monitors versus trying to find 20 CRTs and lugging them to the event. Yeah it might be more expensive, but the CRT days are going to go away, at least for Smash 4. With native digital signals now, there's no way a CRT is even remotely worth it.

 

[D-idara]

OK, so my technical knowledge and frame knowledge's very limited but...look at the sunrays on Battlefield...and the light style on Super Mario Galaxy, and the entirety of Orbital Gate's visuals...I mean, COME ON! Move on and let's find a way for tournaments to use actually-decent TVs that showcase this game's beautiful visuals, besides, square-shaped TVs are terrible for gaming.

 

[wmo_]

Smash Bros probably polls controller states at 60Hz (can someone verify?). This means that if one controller is slower (even by a microsecond), it could end up missing this frame's controller poll, while the other one doesn't. This would mean that if one controller is slightly slower, it may end up being a full frame slower (16ms slower, something the human eye can detect).

If the difference between controller latency is very small (let's say 1 ms), there will be a low chance that one controller's input will register on a different frame than the other. If the latency difference is high (let's say 13ms), then there is a high chance that one controller's input will register on a different frame than the other.

nah it doesn't work like that, I explained it in my post before. Yes smash is 60fps, but the controller is polled at a different rate. Take USB for example, it polls at 125hz/250hz/500hz/1000hz. This in turn means a mouse using 125hz over usb will have a 8ms delay, since the device is updated 125 a second. 250 times a second is a 4ms delay. 500hz is 2ms and 1000hz is 1ms.

But it doesn't have to be those rates, mice that use a PS/2 port (old keyboard port) poll at 100hz or 200hz. The same goes for controllers in other systems and anything else input related

Since the GC controllers are through USB on the Wii U, it's polled at 125hz/250hz/500hz/1000hz. Like I said before, I highly doubt it's 500, so even with a wired controller you're still dealing with 2-8ms input delay.

I agree you don't want to add extra latency when you don't need to, but honestly we are still dealing with values that are all under a frame. Even if I had a frame extra of input lag, that doesn't mean I'm hindered and I'll lose matches I'd normally win. It's way more about the decisions you make as a player, a controller only gets you so far. This is why I'm not worried about this stuff anymore and others shouldn't be either, the playing field is close enough between a wired GC controller and a Wii U Pro Controller, it's more about play-style and making split second decisions.

 

[popsofctown]

There's no popup that tells you how many milliseconds late you were when you fail to perform a punish on reaction. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I don't really care about shiny graphics and would take lower resolution on a CRT for the speed. But TV lag affects both players at least, controller lag interests me more.

 

[Squirty]

nah it doesn't work like that, I explained it in my post before. Yes smash is 60fps, but the controller is polled at a different rate. Take USB for example, it polls at 125hz/250hz/500hz/1000hz. This in turn means a mouse using 125hz over usb will have a 8ms delay, since the device is updated 125 a second. 250 times a second is a 4ms delay. 500hz is 2ms and 1000hz is 1ms.

But it doesn't have to be those rates, mice that use a PS/2 port (old keyboard port) poll at 100hz or 200hz. The same goes for controllers in other systems and anything else input related

Since the GC controllers are through USB on the Wii U, it's polled at 125hz/250hz/500hz/1000hz. Like I said before, I highly doubt it's 500, so even with a wired controller you're still dealing with 2-8ms input delay.

I agree you don't want to add extra latency when you don't need to, but honestly we are still dealing with values that are all under a frame. Even if I had a frame extra of input lag, that doesn't mean I'm hindered and I'll lose matches I'd normally win. It's way more about the decisions you make as a player, a controller only gets you so far. This is why I'm not worried about this stuff anymore and others shouldn't be either, the playing field is close enough between a wired GC controller and a Wii U Pro Controller, it's more about play-style and making split second decisions.

Regarding the polling frequency: We're actually talking about two different polls that probably happen, my bad -- I'll try to clarify what I'm talking about, hopefully this makes a little more sense:

The polling you have been mentioning is used to make sure the state of the controllers is as close to up-to-date as possible (limited by the protocol frequency, as you mentioned) so when the game logic takes its snapshot, it will have up-to-date controller values.

Most games will take a snapshot of the controller states to use for calculating all game logic, so they don't get changing controller states as game logic is computed. This snapshot usually takes place at the beginning of an "update" loop, which usually happens only once per output frame, so at 60Hz on a console like Wii U. This "snapshot" was what I was referring to when I mentioned polling.

It is possible that SSB actually does multiple snapshots of controller state for each rendered frame, which would mean higher-than-60Hz controller polling (or "snapshoting") for game logic purposes -- but honestly, I doubt this... it's not that it's impossible, it's just that it will risk framerate drops for no real gain if the subsequent update loops take too long to complete. (That said, there are sometimes many physics steps per output frame with many game engines that are cut short if they take to long -- but these physics steps are relating to settling physics bodies and are not intended to give more up-to-date controller response.)

But you're totally right about this: This kind of latency difference probably doesn't matter. It's more of a personal interest/curiosity than any belief that I'll be a better player by using a controller that's 5ms faster -- if I'm putting myself in a situation where one frame would make the difference, then I'd say I'm not playing well in the first place (I'm no pro player, though, so maybe there is some very rare situation in a really close battle where this one frame could be the deciding factor. It would be a rare occurrence, though).

Haha, but in the end -- to answer my initial question, I think there seems to be enough interest that I'm going to go ahead with the test and will try to make it as unbiased and "true" as I possibly can... wmo_, I would love to keep hearing your thoughts -- I really appreciate you double checking my logic. I'd like to try as hard as I can to make sure the results are accurate, at the least.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Do you think you could do the other controllers too if it isn't too much more effort. (just for the purpose of knowing I guess)

 

[Squirty]

I'll need to get to the point where we can be confident that it is or is not around 1 in 20 times that there is a dependency between controllers, so I will need to take and analyze many videos to make sure the results are accurate. Maybe like 60-100 videos? Anyone here a stats major or something? It's been like 6 years since my stats class that I barely passed. :/ Unfortunately, this is a statistical analysis.

-- So yeah, I expect it will be a lot of effort. What controllers would be most important to you? My guess is wii u pro and gamecube would be the two that most people would be interested in.

Also, I believe there could be a difference caused by a different number of connected controllers. Heh. This will make for some dumb and probably pointless verification and duplication of tests that will waste some of my time. ;P

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Well anything besides the Wiimote held sideways is usable imo, but it was mainly just because I was curious. GCN and Wii U pro controller are the 2 best bets imo.

 

[wmo_]

check this out http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/8147298/#Comment_8147298

he did what I wanted to do, he wired a trigger to two controller button inputs, one a SIXAXIS ps3 controller and the other an arcade fighting stick. so when he pressed the trigger, it sends an input to the same button on each controller. he used street fighter, so the button he would hit would make player 1 and 2 throw a punch at the same time

looks like there's almost no difference. I'm trying to find hard data about the real latency on the controller, but a test like this works just as well. there were cases of the wired controller getting shown a frame before the wireless, but it wasn't common

 

[Squirty]

Yeeeeeaaaaahhh -- That's so much better than the method I was going to do (removes guessing games through the limitation of my 1200fps camera). Means risk of dismantling a couple controllers and a small cost of some electronics (possibly?), but people seem interested, so maybe it's worth it.

(Looks like the pictures of his test setup are missing, now... I might try to ask that Toodles guy if he can re-post them...)

edit: actually, what Toodles described there sounded pretty simple. I'm not sure if I want to use the exact inverter that he mentioned, as I would think it would be good to keep the nintendo gamepad bounce, to let the controller debounce it as it normally would. (assuming that the bounce from a pro controller button is a similar bounce characteristic of gamecube controller) edit again: in retrospect, the controllers could, theoretically, have different debouncing implementations based on different button hardware between wii u pro and gamecube, so Toodles might have been right in simply taking some of the bouncing out of the question altogether with this Shmidt trigger...

I have two old gamecube controllers which have non-functioning joysticks, but the buttons are fine. I could probably use those. This will probably mean needing to buy and dismantle a pro controller, though.

 

[Pazx]

Also, I believe there could be a difference caused by a different number of connected controllers. Heh. This will make for some dumb and probably pointless verification and duplication of tests that will waste some of my time. ;P

I've encountered some input lag playing brawl with a Classic Controller Pro, but only when at a meet with various other wireless devices (3DSes, wavebirds, other Wiimotes) so I think the answer to your question is most likely yes due to interference. I'd also be very interested in your results, particularly if you added a Wiimote + CC to the mix.

 

[Sleek Media]

It's going to be a <1 frame difference, so just go with whichever is more comfortable to you. It's not 2006 anymore. Wireless controllers have come a long way.

 

[Sabaca]

I think 3ds Only users are interested in the Input lag of the 3ds when you are using it as a controller for the WiiU.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I think that the general populace of players are rather s bit over sensitive to this issue in in discussion over tiers of ms where technically it's not even humanly noticeable in actual practice.

The CRTs are not moving in to Smash 4, and good riddance.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Well this is about controller latency, not CRTs (which I agree shouldn't be used), and I disagree. ms can be noticeable in actual practice.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Well this is about controller latency, not CRTs (which I agree shouldn't be used), and I disagree. ms can be noticeable in actual practice.

The argument is ~ where it's noticeable, though.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

The argument is ~ where it's noticeable, though.

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I want to Wii U Pro.
6 vs 4 MS? Idgaf. That isn't big enough for me.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I'm not sure what you mean.

I mean there are times when I see people make choices or argue the superiority of options with less than 5ms difference, which is foolish when that is literally indiscernible to any normal human, not to mention occurring within an instance of in-between one frame which all the more makes it irrelevant.

 

[PND]

I think having an extra shoulder button makes up for ~2ms of potential input lag. 2ms may come up once or twice over my tournament career. Having an extra button to easily jump out of shield will come up every single match. As long as the controls "feel" right, I'll probably make the jump to Pro.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

^eggsactly. My only worry is interference but I want more buttons.

 

[Squirty]

I think 3ds Only users are interested in the Input lag of the 3ds when you are using it as a controller for the WiiU.

Thanks Sabaca, might be a good point. I won't be dismantling my 3DS, though, so I will need a 3DS donation to do this test.

It's looking like I might be a month or two after release by the time I've built the circuit and done the test, if everything goes well...

 

[Squirty]

Also, I'll reiterate that usually the effective latency between a wireless and wired controller will often be exactly equivalent when aligned to game logic (expecting a <16ms difference). But, sometimes it won't align to be equivalent and one controller will register one frame later than the other. In this case where one controller registers a frame later, I would expect that it would be theoretically impossible for a human to be able to notice this because there is already a 16ms variance on any input, regardless of controller, assuming that input snapshots do occur at 60Hz.

So what may be of interest here is the probability of: how often does one controller register a frame later than the other controller? It is possible that this one frame delay could be the difference between your action registering in time or not, which could be the deciding factor of a match. It's only going to matter in matches between players of equal skill level... And how much it will matter is what I hope to find out.

At least, that's what the theory says. Let me know if anyone disassembles the Wii U or 3DS codebase and finds that input snapshots don't occur at 60Hz, 'cause that is a base assumption of all of this.

 

[Dantarion]

Brawl and Melee definitely read game input at 60hz.
The way to do this is to take each kind of controller and wire them to a single physical button, then press shield. You should be able to review 60fps video and see which one happens first.

http://www.teyah.net/sticklag/overview.html