Just to clarify, I said that before we knew much about Fox's changes to his Jab aside from how it was used before being completely invalidated. Additionally, I have super slow internet so I didn't even play the patch until later that night, I assumed people were being genuine when they said all Jab follow ups were gone (which later turned out to be incorrect).
Second of all, jab combo'd into Usmash before regardless of where it hit. Fox's new jab requires you to hit with the tip of his first jab to do any sort of follow up, and it doesn't combo into Usmash very reliably and only really works at strict percentages.
That's why I don't post or even really enjoy reading anything from anyone who doesn't back their claims.
I don't have internet and I'm currently sitting in a cafe to use theirs... My Wii U still isn't updated. I'm just going off video and data evidence.
Regardless of that Fox nerf, it's still effective, just not as easy as before. Plus, there was a buff in return. That's very reasonable balancing.
Not to say that Sonic's 4% nerf to Fsmash is unreasonable, but my point is moreso that it really makes little sense whereas Fox needed that jab abuse patched, and he got something in return for it and still doesn't completely lose options out of jab. Overall a pretty solid outcome I think.
Also, I personally can't stand fighting Sonic but I still feel bad for your community when you guys keep getting nerfed because you guys aren't the OP ones. At least this time it's nothing major, but you are right in addressing that it's the principle not the nerf itself. Either way, I hope you guys aren't touched in the future because Sonic is fine right now.
I'm still trying to comprehend how little was done about Sheik, Luigi getting a massive UpB buff and why Rosalina hasn't been touched. It doesn't make much sense when Sonic receives a direct nerf.
Well, that's our point.
There are characters I hate playing against as Sonic... But that doesn't mean I think they require stupid nerfs to fit my needs.
I completely disagree with how hard they nerfed Diddy, and am very upset with how characters like Sheik, Rosa, Luigi, etc. basically go untouched or even buffed... While Sonic is painted to be some broken character when he really isn't. He's annoying and he's viable, but he has very clear drawbacks that the vast majority of people like to ignore for some reason. If he was really as good as people say he is, you'd see a lot more top players utilizing him or Sonics placing higher.
I appreciate your enthusiasm towards your character though. Like you, I main Fox for Fox, and no matter his changes I will still main him.
I hope I don't come off as bashing you or Fox, but I don't think Fox's balance changes are comparable to Sonic's.
Manny is flat out a better Sonic player than Joe. As for 6WX, I talked to him earlier this week and he practiced Ryu more than Sonic before EVO, which is unfortunate as Ryu wasn't legal at EVO. 6WX is still an exceptional Sonic player regardless of the nerfs.
Regardless of Manny or Joe, 6WX was pretty much the dominant Sonic player, moreso than Manny. Despite the fact that 6WX may have been labbing other characters in conjuction with these patch timings, it still shows that 6WX's playstyle is being hurt in the process when he's placing that much lower at majors and Manny is outperforming.
I just stopped by because my post got quoted here and I ended up reading the whole thing.
The amount of whining in this thread is
Let me start by saying, I do not hate Sonic. I have learnt to deal with him to a point where I am satisfied with the MU. I even find him fun to fight at times. Yes, I'm sure I'd still get trashed by a top campy Sonic like Manny, but I've never played one. So I am not speaking from "salt" in that respect.
Also, I don't wish to alienate the lot of you with this post, I really don't. Sorry in advance to anyone who gets offended! But after reading some of the comments here I just have to speak up.
Sonic is a top tier character. He was barely touched. Over time, he has had several small nerfs + tweaks, just like Sheik and other characters of his caliber like Rosalina.
I appreciate the way you're going about this, but I don't believe Sonic is in the same caliber as Sheik and Rosalina... Maybe back in the B T H R O W B O Y S days, but Japan is delusional or straight up bad if they really think Sonic is top 3 in this game.
However, I do get your main point. I hope I'm not being misinterpreted (can't speak for others) but Sonic is still a high tier character, but I think Orochi and Espy convey the point pretty well too.
Nah, not in his position. While Sonic clearly has positive MUs against the majority of the cast, he definitely struggles against ALL of the top tiers and a handful high tiers.
This results in Sonic being hated by the majority of players while not really being able to battle to the top as much as the other top tiers.
Haters gonna hate. It's pretty much because it is Sonic and this is a Nintendo game. That's just how it is and I can't be bothered trying to talk sense into that kind of people anymore.
I definitely agree with bc, but there's a small lot of us that started with Sonic in Brawl. We may not be new Greninja, but seeing him slowly creep inch by inch closer to his Brawl status is frustrating.
None of us vets want to really go back to that.
I'm not whining or anything, I'll deal, but it's just really annoying in a game where people like DK and Rosa can ko people at sub 70%, and everyone is too busy ******** about a move that loses to grabs and clanks with jabs.
Basically, all this.
Diddy was better than Sonic admittedly, but he got hit WAY harder by two patches in a row.
Greninja was never better than Sonic, he was never even a top 5 1v1 character, and he got trashed by a patch to the point of being unviable. It's taken 8 months for the devs to realise that he needs good Shurikens to compete.
So when I see this behaviour from Sonic mains, I kind of look on in disbelief. Sonic's kill power has been hit a couple of times. So what. It has not stopped him competing (the Bthrow nerf was way more significant than the Fsmash nerf). It will not stop him from competing. Unlike Diddy and Greninja, his core gameplan has not changed. Sonic is still a viable character. Why are you complaining that Sonic may not be "as top tier as before"? Are you serious? As long as your character is viable, what right does anyone really have to complain on this scale?
Nerfs suck. I get it. Trust me, as a Greninja main I get that better than ANYONE, including Diddy mains. But you are all too fixated on Sonic getting "repeatedly nerfed". I know that in itself is annoying, but his balance changes have constantly been small, and they are not out of keeping with other characters of his strength. Other characters close to his strength have even been nerfed SO much harder. Sonic is not the main problem character of this game, I agree, but he isn't getting nerfed as if he is. He has not had the Diddy treatment.
Yes, and that's why I was speaking on principle.
I'm not saying Sonic is the only character to have gone through this, but he's been a very large target for nerfs in addition to Diddy, which makes little sense considering the position other characters hold.
Sonic hasn't just taken KO tweaks... The Mewtwo patch also nerfed his Spins quite heavily. Damage was reduced on all of them and Aerial Spin Charge is no longer multi-hit. So, we build damage slower and kill slower... Sounding more like Diddy nerfs.
Meanwhile, Rosa is a thing who can kill with Uair at the earliest of percents.
I hate repeating myself and risk sounding whiny, but I am trying to defend a point that I stand by.
It's true that I may have let personal things, lack of internet access, and frustration with people in these threads get to me when I made my original post, but I still stand by the principle.
I'm also not defending people who are claiming to drop Sonic because of a minor Fsmash nerf. I could care less about that. This nerf alone is not nearly as big as the previous, but is still wildly misplaced.
I doubt the tier placement will change much from this one, but Sonic easily started losing more match-ups after Mewtwo's release. This random hit is unwarranted. That's all.
And I do get what @
is saying. They are nerfing the wrong things at this point, they aren't doing anything to fix the real problem which is campy Sonic. Ideally, that strategy would be nerfed and Sonic's kill power would be left alone. I do understand your frustration there. But though it might not be completely for reasons you like, the fact remains, Sonic is more than viable. This level of complaining is still unwarranted.
My point exactly. I'm glad you see where I'm coming from, and again, I apologize if I came off as whining too, as that's not my intention.
I never stated Sonic was not a viable character or that this nerf changes that.
I simply am stressing that if we keep idly accepting these nerfs on this trajectory as being minor... They will keep adding up. I don't know what future patches hold, so it's upsetting to see a dev team clearly having their priorities out of whack.
As for the rest of you, I know you might want to flame me to hell and back. Please bear in mind that I honestly don't wish to aggravate or alienate you. But you need a serious reality check.
I think they have no reason to be upset with you. I certainly am not, and appreciate your feedback. I think we agree somewhat and at least have similar viewpoints on this, so I can respect your post.
Aww , poor Sonic ..
I don't care about any of his nerfs or player hate. I'm going to still main Sonic cause I love that character >.< But I still feel for the competitive players who main Sonic..
Off topic question. But i'd love to be a competitive smasher. Can anyone re-direct me to the appropriate information for Sonic?
Please check our stickies. We have some comprehensive guides, including a moveset breakdown
and a FAQ thread
which also serves as a Q&A if you have questions along the way.
PM Sonic is stupid.
There should be a rule against bringing up that game in here.
Agreed, and agreed.
I'm going to research actually if that's possible. I think in certain situations it could fall under spam if it's off-topic or as trolling if it's advocating one game over another, depending on how posts are worded.
If you want to play PM Sonic, please take it somewhere else. I have nothing to say to you here.
F smash still kills 30 percent earlier than it did in brawl.
Down smash still kills 30-70 percent earlier than it did in brawl. With a better knockback angle and a faster hitbox
Back throw still kills 40 percent earlier than it did in brawl.
Up air still kills 20-30 percent earlier than it did in brawl
Nair is still a kill move now, unlike having to hit with it halfway offstage at 140.
Up smash STILL, EVEN NOW KILLS NINETY PERCENT EARLIER THAN IT DID IN BRAWL WTF.
This whole 'oh its just like brawl sonic all over again' thing needs to stop. I think playing this incredibly overpowered chacracter for the last year or so as made you guys forget exactly how bad sonic was in brawl. That character was terrible and we are still incredibly lucky that hes this much better than he was before. The nerfs are minor. Deal with it. Its not that serious
It's an exaggeration, but you also have to remember that yes, we do kill earlier than in Brawl... But like, so does literally every one else. This is like, Super Jank Bros.
Sonic isn't just one isolated character. This is a new engine. They fixed a lot of what was wrong about Sonic (moves actually work now, I'm looking at you, dash attack) but there are new problems, obstacles, etc. due to the change of engine and meta in a cast of 50+ who are also being tweaked in ways that over time, may keep putting them over Sonic.
I understand your point though. It's not fair to compare it to Brawl as it's obviously not as extreme, but with rage and so many characters having safer KO set-ups and earlier KO power, having our tools taken away certainly starts to feel nostalgic if you catch my drift.