Data FINAL: Confirmed 1.0.6 Patch Notes

[Phoenix_Dark]

I'm just angry with the nerf to his spin dashes as a whole. The reduction in damage has an effect on hitstun to some degree which makes things a lot stricter with getting spin charge to dair spikes.

Don't forget that now with the damage reduction, the amount of moves the spins clash with is lower as well. Now they'll just flat out beat it.

 

[Camalange]

HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT

I've discovered a new thing:

Spoiler

Dair spike knockback was NERFED

Spoiler

At least the % I've been testing from this post don't work anymore. Even with the added 6% we already lost on the SDR and SDJ.

****

kay

The turn around thing sounds like a cool fix though.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Poor Sonic... BThrow getting a nerf really hurts Sonic's game. I was using it and it didn't kill until FThrow %'s (staled it a bit trying to kill them with it though).

Think of it this way:

You now need to land approximately 50% more SD/SC as you did before to get them to the OLD KO % for your Throws. Now you need to land... wait for it... nearly DOUBLE the SD/SC as you did for the NEW KO %. Obviously there's a lot of variation with SD/SC damage depending on where you hit them, which aerial you can connect if any at all, etc. However, this means that Sonic needs to work roughly twice as hard for his BThrow KO's.

Compared to Diddy who can still do ~30% DThrow Combos and bring you to 46% in 2 Throws, Diddy only needs to land 1-2 extra throws or bananas to KO you (although no more Hoo Haa kills).

Sheik was nerfed (BAir damage/knockback) but damage output still the same (needs to land about 2 more attacks to bring opponents to the new KO %). Pikachu was pretty much untouched. ZSS and Rosalina were untouched.

I'm sorry but I don't see Sonic even being in A tier anymore. IMO he will be the top of B Tier. Sonic was a medium risk high reward character. Now he's a medium risk, medium reward character. He was nerfed the hardest along with Diddy. He now needs to land twice as many SD/SC as he used to and against good players, it will be twice as difficult. Obviously you can still FSmash, YOLO Up Smash, and BAir before 140% to net the KO, but good opponents will rarely get wrecked by these options (except a good air read BAir, but characters like Sheik have far too many recovery options for you to consistently pull the read off) and you may get punished really hard for these options.

You're dumb and posted too much.

i still feel like something is different as far as his mobility goes. Could just be the fact that he no longer slows down and needs to speed up again from a turn around during a run.

Nothing is different. Stop posting nonsense.

Do we have any data about Uthrow ? I feel it's better knockback

It's the same. Uthrow>Uair at 0 and Uthrow>fair/uair at mid percents still work.

Am I the only one who feels that USmash has been nerfed?

Yes. It's the same.

Sonic was worse than ZSS and Fox pre-patch.

I'd say he was better then , but lost the matchup. gets wrecked by and .

Post to all: You're all whiny. Needing to kill with Bair/Fsmash/Uair isn't even hard. It's not like you can't just SD/SC a character 2-3 more times to put them into Bthrow percent. Maybe I'm just better then all of you. Ugh.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Indeed he does turn faster, and it's amazing for his ground game. of course I still rather have a killing b-throw oh well

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Post to all: You're all whiny. Needing to kill with Bair/Fsmash/Uair isn't even hard. It's not like you can't just SD/SC a character 2-3 more times to put them into Bthrow percent. Maybe I'm just better then all of you. Ugh.

Welp, no need to get all *****y about it. Makes it look like you're in denial that Sonic got nerfed.

No one said that he's crap tier now. While we're stating that he's nerfed, he's still good, although not 1.0.2 good.

 

[Syndralix]

I said it once, and I'll say it again: Sonic was nerfed, but not by much. We still have most of our reliable kill options, and rage makes them better. No need to freak out just because our best combo does 4% less now. =|

 

[Yunior597]

BSD no longer has invincibility frames? wtf is bsd?
ASDR and ASC are now single hit moves? does this means it will hit less damage now that only hit once or the damage got fused of both hits?

 

[Camalange]

Shutting down randos is equally as annoying. Some of these people joined in '15 and have like 5 posts. Relax. It's to be expected.

This is where Smash is now. It's oversaturated and we get balance updates to appease the FG kiddos. Just ignore, correct, or discuss.

Simple.

Meanwhile, been playing a lot of friendlies today and Bthrow is totally still a viable kill option, as if we haven't already stressed that enough. I'm getting used to tilt for C-Stick as Sonic for Spinshot because I realize I'm virtually never not charging a Smash... Like, every other character I feel there's a reason to flick for Smash but for Sonic I almost always give a slight charge. Just works.

H Y P N O S M A S H

I had the funniest Bthrow>Bair>Bair 0-death that would make Boxob proud. Might have to combo video that ish.

BSD no longer has invincibility frames? wtf is bsd?
ASDR and ASC are now single hit moves? does this means it will hit less damage now that only hit once or the damage got fused of both hits?

Burning Spin Dash.

Doing any Spin in the air will only hit once, so yes, you won't get the multiplied damage output from hitting more than once...

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

i've just been abusing Fthrow for kills now. Given that people aren't used to the move so they mess up their DI and die earlier than they should be.

 

[smashbro29]

I'm kind of a **** but it's ok because I've got a fancy title.

Nothin personnel kid.

 

[Adam (DWD)]

I do believe back throw is a less viable kill option now after playing it more. On smashville I was at the edge at 125% and my friend a king dedede player was around 105%. I got the grab and did back throw and he was able to live. As you can see I was in rage and I believe this use to kill in the last version but I am not 100% sure. Either way just take note so you can pay around the change.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

This is where Smash is now. It's oversaturated and we get balance updates to appease the FG kiddos. Just ignore, correct, or discuss.

Sad, but true.

Meanwhile, been playing a lot of friendlies today and Bthrow is totally still a viable kill option, as if we haven't already stressed that enough.

Just wait and people will still complain about how SD should've been nerfed more (like "make spins slower hurr" or something) and that Bthrow shouldn't kill at all.

I'm getting used to tilt for C-Stick as Sonic for Spinshot because I realize I'm virtually never not charging a Smash... Like, every other character I feel there's a reason to flick for Smash but for Sonic I almost always give a slight charge. Just works.

I'm too used to Hyphen Smash to change it up now That and using Little Mac's jump cancelled USmash (btw, you can now effectively use a jump cancelled the KO Punch. It's awesome).

H Y P N O S M A S H

Guess we'll always have Brawl in our gameplay some way or another.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Welp, no need to get all *****y about it. Makes it look like you're in denial that Sonic got nerfed.

No one said that he's crap tier now. While we're stating that he's nerfed, he's still good, although not 1.0.2 good.

Only nerf I blatantly notice when I play was Bthrow without rage.

I do believe back throw is a less viable kill option now after playing it more. On smashville I was at the edge at 125% and my friend a king dedede player was around 105%. I got the grab and did back throw and he was able to live. As you can see I was in rage and I believe this use to kill in the last version but I am not 100% sure. Either way just take note so you can pay around the change.

probably could have lived that in the previous version. Him, , , and are really heavy. Good thing we have spring to continually knock them off when recovering (Or ledge trump Dsmash).

Nothin personnel kid.

Not because I have a fancy title. It's because I just adapt. I adapted to 3.5 in PM fairly well.

BSD no longer has invincibility frames? wtf is bsd?
ASDR and ASC are now single hit moves? does this means it will hit less damage now that only hit once or the damage got fused of both hits?

Burning Spin Dash=BSD.

Was ASDR and ASC more then single hits before? According to the guide book, down b does 5 hits (3 on the ground and 2 with Uair) and Side b does 3 hits (1 single hit and an uair counts as 3).

Shutting down randos is equally as annoying. Some of these people joined in '15 and have like 5 posts. Relax. It's to be expected.

My b. I hate belligerence. I teach middle school kids.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

ASDR and ASC acted just like Brawl's ASC.

11% off a quick roll from a platform was too good, specially on Smashville. Oh well.

 

[J.APS]

In someway I'm happy with the Bthrow nerf, people abuse that move, because it's an "easy kill"
Well, I will continue with the Dthrow+Dair.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Okay, so it seems that maybe the CPU now actually DIs even in training mode.

Gotta re-test the Dair stuff later.

 

[J.APS]

Okay, so it seems that maybe the CPU now actually DIs even in training mode.

Gotta re-test the Dair stuff later.

I'm testing the spike part and taking notes of the minimum percentage needed (opponents recovery but can't grab the edge).
Maybe on sunday I will do the test on WiiU

 

[Furret]

Post to all: You're all whiny. Needing to kill with Bair/Fsmash/Uair isn't even hard. It's not like you can't just SD/SC a character 2-3 more times to put them into Bthrow percent. Maybe I'm just better then all of you. Ugh.

you're probably are better then me

Okay, so it seems that maybe the CPU now actually DIs even in training mode.

Gotta re-test the Dair stuff later.

I thought the CPU always DI'd (before the patch) into the stage when offstage in training mode

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I dunno, I've always thought it would recover but not DI.

 

[J.APS]

CPU DI....after get hit....not while they get hit...

 

[KeetZ]

I spiked with dair today while playing with a friend.

 

[elmike]

Some questions:

1.- Does anybody here has data on how much less knockback bthrow has now? Like: "before you could kill mario at x% on xStage on the ledge without rage and now is at Z%" ?

2.- Which do you think are the top 3 nerfs that will affect the most sonic's performance?

 

[Furret]

CPU DI....after get hit....not while they get hit...

I know for certain the CPU DI if you put them on walk. good way to test opponents (left and right) DI against your combos

Some questions:

1.- Does anybody here has data on how much less knockback bthrow has now? Like: "before you could kill mario at x% on xStage on the ledge without rage and now is at Z%" ?

2.- Which do you think are the top 3 nerfs that will affect the most sonic's performance?

1. No I do not know the specifics changes to the KB nerf

2. well we only really have recorded 3 significant nerfs, but with current information and my personal opinion

1. bthrow nerf, pretty justified
2. SD damage nerf, SD->Nair no longer potentially 31% combos on 0% targets
3. Dair KB nerf, no longer can you Footstool -> Dair for early kills in certain match ups

I spiked with dair today while playing with a friend.

an odd thread to make this comment in

 

[KeetZ]

I know for certain the CPU DI if you put them on walk. good way to test opponents (left and right) DI against your combos

1. No I do not know the specifics changes to the KB nerf

2. well we only really have recorded 3 significant nerfs, but with current information and my personal opinion

1. bthrow nerf, pretty justified
2. SD damage nerf, SD->Nair no longer potentially 31% combos on 0% targets
3. Dair KB nerf, no longer can you Footstool -> Dair for early kills in certain match ups

an odd thread to make this comment in

A few people were commenting on dair nerf, and I wanted chime in that the spike still exists.

 

[Camalange]

Only nerf I blatantly notice when I play was Bthrow without rage.

Agreed. Without rage it probably won't kill before 140% on normal characters and typical stage position (like, not on a janky Smashville platform which can kill people at 90 or earlier lol).

My b. I hate belligerence. I teach middle school kids.

It's cool, dude. Smashboards can talk in circles sometimes and I'm guilty myself of calling people out.

They usually deserve it though >:|

I dunno, I've always thought it would recover but not DI.

I noticed a while ago when I was capturing gameplay of trying to perform the ROB footstool jablock set-up, it would keep DI'ing one direction instead of just falling straight down.

 

[J.APS]

Some questions:

1.- Does anybody here has data on how much less knockback bthrow has now? Like: "before you could kill mario at x% on xStage on the ledge without rage and now is at Z%" ?

1.- it feels like... does 1/3 less KB...

Dair KB nerf, no longer can you Footstool -> Dair for early kills in certain match ups

Really? I hope you can still Footstool when the opponents reach 60% or more...
But it was hard to do a Footstool before 60%...maybe 40%...

 

[Furret]

1.- it feels like... does 1/3 less KB...



Really? I hope you can still Footstool when the opponents reach 60% or more...
But it was hard to do a Footstool before 60%...maybe 40%...

footstool is easy in a SD at any early percent (70ish is my cutoff) the only real worry is mashing inputs and double jumping.
Either way whatever characters the set up gave you guaranteed Dair spike on are no longer potent

 

[J.APS]

footstool is easy in a SD at any early percent (70ish is my cutoff) the only real worry is mashing inputs and double jumping.
Either way whatever characters the set up gave you guaranteed Dair spike on are no longer potent

I was talking about Footstool after Dair spike of stage...
Some characters are more "spike-able" than others, no doubt about it. The guaranteed Dair is still there...the % changed just a little...

 

[ROOOOY!]

People complaining need to go play brawl Sonic. Only thing that I've really noticed is bthrow nerf, nothing else really affects the way any of us play. I'm focusing more on getting fsmash reads now to ko instead of going for the easy bthrow option all the time so its probably improving my game holistically anyway in that respect.

 

[NotLiquid]

I don't think I ever really subscribed much to the notion of a kill throw being a particularly great thing for a character to have, even when it works to the benefit of a character that I really like. Much like the Hoo Haa and Ness' BThrow (which survived this patch for some godforsaken reason) its things like that which turn into a trivializing crutch when I feel like Sonic was much better than just that. Its not like whiffing grabs was ever that much of a risk for him. Some of the apparent percentage nerfs means Sonic has to put in more work, but racking up damage has never been an issue with him. I feel like the most significant improvements of his post-Brawl are still intact for the most of the part which has been making a pretty fair difference since the game's inception.

 

[Chis]

Did anyone test Sonic's down throw btw?

 

[J.APS]

Did anyone test Sonic's down throw btw?

Dthrow feel the same before the patch...

 

[Lizam]

I tried switching the c-stick to attack to accommodate the spin-shot changes. However I can't reliably stutter step f-smash without a smash stick. I rely on that way too much for landing f-smashes >.<

Ah well, back to practicing spin-shotting with jump. I used to do that in brawl anyway

 

[J.APS]

somebody know's if the Dsmash + Up of ZSS still connects ridiculously?
Is stupid get killed in this way.
example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYHRkZdZa9I

Me, getting killed in this way
https://youtu.be/WVco1FUOqqQ?t=7m6s
(also noticed ISDJ without running....I guess...)

 

[Chis]

Dthrow feel the same before the patch...

So people can still tech it?

 

[J.APS]

So people can still tech it?

I'm pretty sure

 

[ROOOOY!]

So people can still tech it?

Yes they can. And this isnt MK boards. Traitor.

 

[Chis]

Yes they can. And this isnt MK boards. Traitor.

You got me there.

However I haven't used him years.

 

[Z1GMA]

The only thing that really hurts is the bthrow nerf, but I think we had it coming. The 4% nerf on SD doesn't really haunt me, though - it's still a godlike move anyway. In fact, SD would be a good move even if it did 0%.

 

[Camalange]

That is one of the most flawed posts I ever read.