Falco Testing Grounds ~

[J4pu]

But it all depends on the timing on whether or not a certain move such as the mortar will out-prioritise the phantasm.

I said a loooooooong time ago (well like 3 weeks) that the first ~1/2 of phantasm has invincibility frames, after you lose these frames then you can get hit out of it by any move.

Green Greens (against the bricks - they act like a wall)
.

green greens wall works perfectly (I've only done it from the center platform though)

 

[Vlade]

Sorry about that, I never realised. But what you said is definitely correct, I've always hit falco out of the phantasm during the 2nd 'half'.

I thought green greens would work, since it's a flat area before the wall so it is possible to sustain the laserlock. Thanks for confirming.

 

[§witch]

I'm thinking more like first third, but alright.

 

[Denzi]

I said a loooooooong time ago (well like 3 weeks) that the first ~1/2 of phantasm has invincibility frames, after you lose these frames then you can get hit out of it by any move.

But I thought lasers (and projectiles in general) stopped the Phantasm no matter where you were in it. Am I wrong?

 

[§witch]

^Nope, you would be correct. Nice man, didn't even think of that.

 

[Vlade]

What about the mortar? Isn't that considered as a projectile?

 

[J4pu]

But I thought lasers (and projectiles in general) stopped the Phantasm no matter where you were in it. Am I wrong?

I went through a fully charged charge shot (Samus) today, so yes, you would be wrong.

 

[§witch]

It would depend on the priority of the projectile. Falco's laser will beat it, yet samus' won't? Samus' shot can be cancelled by a ganon fsmash as well; it all depends. At the start of phantasm, falco has yet to become separated from his illusion, and the illusion has the hitbox.

 

[Denzi]

I went through a fully charged charge shot (Samus) today, so yes, you would be wrong.

Okay, just wondering.

Since we now know that everything (and nothing) "outprioritize" the Phantasm, should we focus on moves that easily hit us out of it? It would seem like a good idea to me.

 

[§witch]

Okay, just wondering. I probably hit him after the starting animation but before he started moving then.

Since we now know that everything (and nothing) "outprioritize" the Phantasm, should we focus on moves that easily hit us out of it? It would seem like a good idea to me.

I just explained it.

 

[Denzi]

I just explained it.

Sorry, I completely missed that.

 

[Blad01]

Well... Is that because Falco's lasers cover a long range ? They are like 1/3 of the phantasm long. I think that Falco's phantasm is invicible after the startup, and during the first 1/3 of the movement. So a Falco's laser could catch him at the beginning or at the end of the invicibility frames.

 

[StarHawk_30]

I just found out that falcos dsmash has vertical knockback properties

 

[Conviction]

I just found out that falcos dsmash has vertical knockback properties

I think that's only bad Di if they are going straight up.

 

[Teran]

He could mean downwards. It can send your opponent at a nasty diagonally downwards angle after all.

 

[Conviction]

He could mean downwards. It can send your opponent at a nasty diagonally downwards angle after all.

Not to burst your bubble but I think that's but known, well at least I knew that, it happens for Fox and Falco.

 

[Teran]

Not to burst your bubble but I think that's but known, well at least I knew that, it happens for Fox and Falco.

Yes I know most know, but maybe he didn't? Maybe that's what I was trying to say?

 

[Conviction]

Yes I know most know, but maybe he didn't? Maybe that's what I was trying to say?

No problem I didnt see the whole conversation.

 

[J4pu]

It would depend on the priority of the projectile. Falco's laser will beat it, yet samus' won't? Samus' shot can be cancelled by a ganon fsmash as well; it all depends. At the start of phantasm, falco has yet to become separated from his illusion, and the illusion has the hitbox.

I think this is mistaken and here's why: when I went straight through the Charge shot, the Charge shot also went straight through me. As in the phantasm's hitbox did not outprioritize and stop the CS, but rather the 2 attacks just completely ignored each other, which to me sounds like: the CS outprioritized the phantasm hitbox b/c the CS continued, and Falco had invincibility frames, so even though the CS outprioritized the phantasm hitbox, he kept going as well.

Well... Is that because Falco's lasers cover a long range ? They are like 1/3 of the phantasm long. I think that Falco's phantasm is invicible after the startup, and during the first 1/3 of the movement. So a Falco's laser could catch him at the beginning or at the end of the invicibility frames.

i think this would be the correct explanation as to why lasers stop Falco's phantasm.

 

[Vlade]

Would it be beneficial to analyse the hitboxes of falco's moves? Like this thread?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211629

 

[Blad01]

Would it be beneficial to analyse the hitboxes of falco's moves? Like this thread?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211629

I'm doing this for the guide. It's not very accurate thought, but you'll see ^^

I'll probably release the first part of the guide on January the 4th. (But maybe only in the FBR for the moment)

 

[Vlade]

Ok, I look forward to it

 

[Blad01]

Oh btw we NEED frame data for illusion cancel stuff :x

 

[J4pu]

if only 3GOD were to come back to us
I loved that guy.

 

[Vlade]

I recently got recording equipment, so I MIGHT be able to learn how to gather frame data. Can't guarantee anything though.

 

[Denzi]

I'm pretty sure the Smash Lab is finding frame data for all moves, but they might not think to include the canceled Phantasms. Someone should contact one of the members.

 

[J4pu]

my Dthrow > Jab > LL data
All data collected in vs mode


if they DI up and away it gives them more time to escape the Jab > landing on their back (tested with MK)

Character data (%s are seen as before you do the Dthrow, therefore due to stale move issues, they will change slightly [they actually change a lot] depending on how diminished your dthrow and maybe Jab are)

MK
Earliest Percent that Jab > landing on back: 42% <-- Dthrow is not stale at all | ~57% very stale Dthrow
Latest percent Dthrow > Jab connects regardless of DI: 76% <-- not stale | % stale
CG > Dair > grab > dthrow > Jab > LL works
CG > Jab > LL does NOT work
Best way to DI to escape the Dthrow > Jab is straight away

Wario
Earliest Percent that Jab > landing on back: 58% <-- Dthrow is not stale at all | 78% FULLY stale Dthrow
Latest percent Dthrow > Jab connects with DI away:
CG (43%) > Dair > 2 lasers > Dthrow>Jab>LL works
DI Up/towards will always allow wario to avoid Jab after ~25%

Works with any DI, or none
MK

DI away required
Wario
Marth
DDD ~75-100

DI down (and away) required
Snake

I'll update this post every so often

 

[Vlade]

Against wolf, toon link and several others in training mode I couldn't connect with the jab. I also tried in vs mode with a standing human and it still wouldn't hit without DI.

 

[J4pu]

try staling Dthrow a little with the CG then see if it still won't connect.

 

[Vlade]

Ok I'll give that a shot

 

[BleachigoZX]

Wait so the CG Laser-Lock will only work with a staled D-throw?
I've gotten to work on my brother but it ended because Lylat sucks.

Also can this lead to Jab-lock (assuming Falco has one, not sure I have never done it, nor do I remember ever reading anything about it, but it probably exist) also?

 

[§witch]

Wait so the CG Laser-Lock will only work with a staled D-throw?
I've gotten to work on my brother but it ended because Lylat sucks.

Also can this lead to Jab-lock (assuming Falco has one, not sure I have never done it, nor do I remember ever reading anything about it, but it probably exist) also?

Why would you ever want to jab lock in place of a laserlock?

 

[BleachigoZX]

Up Smash?

10roofs

 

[J4pu]

falco does not have a jab lock

If you place the ending of the LL correctly you may be able to IAP over and Usmash

 

[Denzi]

falco does not have a jab lock

If you place the ending of the LL correctly you may be able to IAP over and Usmash

Wouldn't that pretty much murder MK? If you catch him @ ~80%, couldn't you kill him after the LLock? Lasers build damage after the Dthrow, and Usmash would be fresh cause of the lasers. Someone needs to test this.

 

[Vlade]

Although there may be too much ending lag with the grounded lasers, so by the time you've finished shooting the last laser and IAP'ed, your opponent might be able to get-up, roll, etc.

Oh and J4pu, I tried staling the down throw and that didn't work. Instead I did a dthrow on wolf, and my friend DI'ed AWAY from falco. I think that this is the only way he can get the jab on certain characters (this includes toon link and a couple others that I tested).

Can anyone confirm the fact that certain characters MUST DI AWAY from falco in order for the jab to connect?

 

[Hyo]

^ I've had similar results in trying to land the jab lock.

Which I suppose is a good thing, as that's all anyone does anyway, right?

 

[J4pu]

that's some strange physics, DI'ing away keeps you in range, weird, does that mean DI'ing towards is the best choice?
tbh I didn't test DI'ing towards at all when I tested MK since it's not something you would expect, but it worked w/o any DI

 

[Vlade]

Yeah MK I found I could jab without DI.

I couldn't jab wolf without DI though, I found that I could only jab when I DI'ed away. I think the answer is that when he doesn't DI, he gets sent at a trajectory which is too high for a jab to connect after dthrow. When he DI's away, he is sent at a lower trajectory after the dthrow, thus the jab can connect and you can procede with a LL at the appropriate %.

 

[Denzi]

^ I've had similar results in trying to land the jab lock.

Which I suppose is a good thing, as that's all anyone does anyway, right?

There is no Jab Lock.