Falco: Official Discussion

[goodoldganon]

Discussion for Falco. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. Popular suggestions/values will be marked as such. Final values will be determined by popularity, so voice your opinion!

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:


Default Physics:
SH:
FH:
FF:
DGrav:
Grav:

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:


Anything else:

 

[The Cape]

I would like him to only shoot one laser but I dont think that is possible.

What about giving his D throw more KB and his U throw less KB to allow for more followups off of each?

 

[Foxy]

I agree with those two throw suggestions... dthrow has very low knockback which actually makes it difficult to combo from (AND allows some gay things like dthrow-jab-dthrow), and the uthrow would be much more useful with less KB.

I would also like to throw in the idea of giving his dair spiking trajectory throughout the entire move, as per Melee.

He's already a quite decent character, but not amazing, so the dair buff wouldn't be imbalanced and would also specialize his style a lot more.

Apart from the dthrow and uthrow and the dair changes, I can't see anything else wrong with Falco apart from his TERRIBLE fair (the only thing I can even think of for that is to make it way faster or strip most of the landing lag off so that it could be used like a drill).

 

[leafgreen386]

I don't even mind that his throws suck right now. At least they're still sorta usable. My biggest beef with falco right now is his utilt.

If you've tried psuedo-pillaring against anyone who knows how to mash the A button, you'll quickly find that he cannot combo his utilt into an aerial at low percents. It's too fricking slow.

The move's first hit connects frame 4. The second hit connects frame 12. It ends on frame 36. He has 24 frames of lag on the move.

I've tried playing him with a speed-up of 2x starting frame 14, which cuts off 11 frames of lag from the move, causing to end on frame 25. It actually made utilt -> dair at low percents legit, although just barely; you have to be quick, otherwise it won't register as a combo in training mode. Now, the speedup might've been a little bit too much, but I think that if falco deserves any buffs at all... it's this.

I could see coupling this with a some kind of nerf if it made him too good, and I'd rather see us fix up characters that actually need help first before we start making tweaks to chars like falco. Still, something to keep in mind.

 

[goodoldganon]

I was gonna say Falco doesn't need help, but then I read your last paragraph. I agree that his u-tilt is pretty **** though.

 

[shanus]

I think when I used the 2x modifier, it seemed too steep. Maybe something like 1.5 or 1.75 might be a bit better. Falco does seem excellent though, so I dunno what else to say besides just that I tried out the 2x haha

 

[The Cape]

I like the faster U tilt idea. What about giving his fair a higher base KB on the last hit?

The move is useable in combos and good for damage, why not give it the possibility to kill?

Gives him an interesting aerial kill move.

 

[CT Chia]

i personally dont think falco should be touched with at all. i feel like some other characters hes reached a great level of balance. hes an amazing character with tons of great combo possibilities, his lasers, though its balanced out by some problems like recovery, fast falling speed, etc. i dont think we need a faster utilt, it has its uses as of now, no one said it "has" to combo into aerials, nor do we need pillaring. just cause it was in melee doesnt mean we have to replicate it.

the only change i could possibly think of would be increase the kb a tad on bair. its already used as a kill move instead of anything else, and its a little lackluster at it. characters in b+ now are killing at much lower percents than in vBrawl, and if ur not able to land a fsmash or usmash with falco, he has no options rly until crazy high percents like 160 or so with bair, so maybe up it just a tad so it kills around 140ish instead? (numbers r off the top of my head but u get the idea)

 

[Revven]

Yeah Chibo, I agree, after playing a Falco for HOURS yesterday, he's really hard to get inside with heavies like Bowser, Zard, DK, and etc. But when they do get inside him, he gets owned hard. I have a lot of matches from yesterday against I think a pretty good Falco (he was beating me around with Dair and lasers a lot so... lawl). His Dair is actually pretty good though, not gonna lie, seems to be good onstage like it used to be if you fail to tech it (which is very easy to do because of how quick it is).

In any case, a better Bair sounds like something he could use, my friend was having a REALLY hard time killing me (I was at like 160% most of the time by the time he killed me).

He doesn't need this quite yet but, it's something I'd like to see soon.

Edit: OKAY, does anyone else have any problems approaching Falco when he shoots lasers constantly by running into the air and shooting them then going past you and turning around lasers some more etc. with some chars? I just played a good friend of mine for 5+ hours yesterday and some this morning and I could not easily get around his lasers with a character like DK or Samus but, I was able to get inside his Falco with Falcon (due to Falcon's speed). Samus and DK, SHADing didn't help at all and shielding put me at a disadvantage as he would just run back to me after shooting the laser and Dair my shield a lot until I would let go, try to shield grab (and successfully shield grab) or roll away.

Either we need to lower shield stun some more or Falco's lasers need less stun. I have replays to show you guys what I mean and I'll get them up when I can.

Edit 2: On second thought, it might just be the hitlag being raised. If we exempt jabs from the hitlag code (LIKE I WANT TO HAPPEN) then we can lower hitlag again back to 50%.

 

[ZodiakLucien]

falcos side B hitbox should definitely be moved behind him. Any slow character on any decent sized stage (which is a lot of stages) has nearly zero chance of beating a patient falco. Slow characters have to be psychic to even stop the side B from hitting them. I am not talking about for edgeguarding. I am talking about for just getting out of a bad situation. Combined with 2 lasers, you have an amazing camper that you really cant put in a bad situation. Characters like luigi simply cant get close enough to a good falco.

 

[Shell]

Here are some of ideas for finalizing Falco I've compiled:

-Finish and Test SHL
-Possibly up the hitlag on lasers rather than damage to encourage approaches
-Leaf's gravity settings: 133AD4E0
-Shine size matches animation (very tip possibly pushes away?)
-Adjust early-frame/movement-distribution for Illusion to move fewer frames at first (Magus? )
-Change U-tilt IASA to earlier but Jump-only
-Dair Flub is now a very weak meteor, or other Dair rework
-Possible delay of Jab IASA, or something else with jab?

Thoughts? Might need another nerf to balance it out, but I think higher gravity, worse camping options / recovery might be enough. Really depends on how effective the lasers turn out.

 

[Revven]

1. Sounds fine.

2. We cannot edit laser's hitlag individually, they are a projectile, they are part of the bigger electric hitlag code which affects the electric hitlag of OTHER moves. I don't think this will be possible.

3. What exactly do his gravity settings achieve?

4. I don't think we should do this, it is a weakness to the move, allows characters to crawl under it and escape its comboability. Making it harder to evade is just making things sillier as is with the move.

5. Maybe. If sweetspot side Bs gets done, I'm thinking Fox's and Falco's Side Bs will be affected quite drastically on most stages. But, we'll have to see.

6. So instead of making Utilt faster, we're going with IASA? Or keeping the speed up AND IASA? I don't think we should do it then if it's the latter.

7. I don't see why they should get rewarded with a weak meteor for missing the sweetspot.

8. Jab will just have fixed hitlag so you won't take as much damage from it. Magus has already done this in the build he has, you might wanna try it out.

 

[Shell]

Very well, I agree with your argument about the shine, actually. It gets its fair share of grumbling as is anyways.

New gravity allows for faster vertical movement and SHFFL'd attacks at the cost of recovery power.

U-tilt would be IASA straight into jump on 22ish, but would otherwise wait until 37 for all other actions. I'll have to actually test that 22 value, this is a rough guess.

Now the dair currently spikes 5-7, flubs 8-21. Replace the flub with a meteor with the same BKB as the strong hit, but very low growth.

Additionally, raise the angle of D-throw and raise its base -- we want to remove his D-throw-Jab-D-throw CG on heavies, a strategy that skewed an already favorable matchup. Hopefully it will preserve DACUS followups.

Just to update the changelist:

*Neutral / Tweak
+ Buff
- Nerf

(*) SHL @ current 2% Damage

(+) Higher Grav for better aerial movement, faster SHFFL'd attacks
(+) U-tilt IASA into Jump on 22, otherwise vBrawl 36 for anything
(+) Dair flub becomes meteor with extremely low growth (think Lucas Dair)

(-) Illusion moves slower at beginning to discourage fleeing the camp-site / slightly nerf recovery
(-) Gravity hurts recovery
(-) Remove D-throw/Jab/D-throw CG

Overall, the SHL and tweak Illusion will still certainly allow for camping, but won't be as effective as before especially against tall characters over short characters. Furthermore, the loss of the CG also helps to smooth out these matchups.

The illusion and gravity settings should worsen his recovery, obviously.

Finally, we promote offensive action via the introduction of a psuedo/situational-pillar crafted from U-tilt and weak Dair and the better approach options provided by SHL.

It's difficult to predict how effective that will all turn out, but if he needs nerfs, I'd suggest either setting Illusion landing lag to 0.80x or trimming away damage on a few moves, or putting a charge-timer on Lazorz akin to Bowser's Flame Breath.

 

[shanus]

Le sigh, getting this thing to FF properly is a royal PIA.

When I loop it to allow an FF during the startup, the animation offsets the laser over his head. When I put it on the endlag, it doesnt add the momentum to the end of it.

Hopefully v16 might work.


Regarding all of these other adjustments, I don't think its that needed. The main point is to decentralize is dual lasers, and once this FF laser is actually applied correctly, his SHFFLaser will feel very fast.

I had a fun idea if his shine connected, it would let him JC it, but falco needs no love lol

 

[JCaesar]

Have you guys been following the discussion in the public Falco+ thread?