Falco living up to his Tier Status? Current Falco Metagame Discussion

[Zanthos25]

Current Discussion: How will Pikachu's newfound chaingrab on Falco change Falco's Metagame


Link to thread:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6929262#post6929262

Link to video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v8Myoltijo

Q&A at the bottom


The following is confirmed to be true:

Dthrow Chaingrab
MK
- 10 - 60 with a fresh or close to fresh dthrow. Controller port might be important.
May begin from less then 10% or 0%, more info is needed on port priority.

Snake
- 50 - 90% with a 7 times staled dthrow
- 0 - 90% on the edge, must begin by 30%.
According to Michael Hey's source this CG is weird, so there maybe some more variations on it that are dependent on pummeling, dthrows staleness, and Snakes %. Needs more testing!

Falco
- 20 - 100%, dthrow must be fresh!


Q: I cant do "x" grab, what am I doing wrong?
A: While there are no weird mechanics, some of these do require that they be set up. For instance, Falco needs a fresh dthrow at 20% (which can be accomplished by fthrow CGing him to that)

Q: Why werent these known before?
A: As stated some of these have weird set ups that are dependant on hitstun and staleness. Most previous attempts focused on CG's from 0%.

Q: When can I buffer a dthrow?
A: Taken from Prime, the buffering window is rather big. You can buffer as early as when pika is falling halfway through the dthrow. When he bounces up in a ball and falls, about halfway through.

This is Falco's place, at the top of A Tier. This is intended to be a serious discussion, please attempt to read this thread before johning about tiers.


SS Tier

Metaknight (15.00)

S Tier

Snake (13.91)

A Tier

Falco (13.03)

King Dedede (12.94)

Mr Game and Watch (12.50)

Marth (12.09)

Diddy Kong (11.94)

I'm just looking for your opinion on this one. Your honest opinion. Do you believe that Falco (currently placed 3rd in the SBR v2.0 Tier List) is living up to his full potential which is evident in his tourney results?

In my opinion, as it stands now, Falco is in danger of dropping several spots when the next tier list hits. I firmly believe that Diddy Kong has the opportunity to pass him.

Why I believe Diddy Kong has a chance to pass Falco in the Tier Rankings

Simply put, Diddy Kong has impressed me of late, and I have seen a ton of tournament videos. His tournament rankings in 09' (don't quote me on this) have to be better than any other character current placed in A Tier. ADHD, AlphaZealot and others have gone toe to toe with the best Metaknight's in the country. Why does this matter? A Metaknight wins the majority of tournaments where there is serious competition. If Falco's cannot get past the Snake, Metaknight (and IC's matchup) he will DROP from his current spot in the tier list. Diddy Kong handles theses characters better, at least evident by his current ranking in tournament play this year.

Diddy Kong's recovery is alot more versatile all-around. This is known. However, this is a large reason as to why I believe Diddy Kong has a chance to be a better character than Falco, in the right hands. Less chance to get gimped, and more options to defend himself while recovering over a Falco player. If Falco has to recover vertically AT ALL he has a very large probability of getting gimped. That is fact.

Why I believe Mr. Game and Watch has a chance to pass Falco in Tier Rankings

Simply put, Mr. GnW's tournament results are very impressive of late. I am quite impressed by OBM and Hylian and their results in 09' (among others that I haven't mentioned). The Game and Watch community is using everything they have and trying new methods [Bucket Braking] in order to succeed. Mr GnW is harder to gimp than Falco, and Falco's struggle quite a bit in this matchup.

Game and Watch's tournament placings are just BETTER than Falco thus far in 09'.


On Falco's Chaingrabs

Falco's chaingrabs are not as devastating as they use to be in the early game. Players have found ways to counter the powerful grab game that Falco has. No more easy chain spike for Falco; he now has to work like no tomorrow to outplay the other character getting the kill. Especially on a character like Metaknight, he will space himself properly to avoid getting grabbed entirely. Snake will play keep-away as well or blow himself up past chaingrab percent.

What am I trying to say here? A good Falco player must become unpredictable when going for the grab...but not become desperate like many Falco players do. We are not the Ice Climbers. We can win without our grab game....but if you see that opening, seize it.

Even though Falco has his chaingrab game (something that many other A tiers do not possess) if he cannot capitalize on this, other characters will pass him up regardless. Getting grabbed by Falco means damage, and one must effectively master Boost Pivot Grab and Reverse Boost Pivot Grab to make full use of Falco's chaingrab. Getting grabbed by Ice Climbers (or even Dedede) means death in the majority of cases and that makes it harder to overcome.

On Falco's Recovery

By now, we should all know about the weaknesses in Falco's recovery. If he is forced to recover vertically, he is toast. Falco's opponents are very smart. They try to create setup's to take advantage of Falco's predictable horizontal recovery (Illusion) as well. Good Snake and Metaknight players know how to capitalize on this and I have seen it in tournament videos.

Falco players are being to predictable when recovering. It's a fact. You've got your Illusion, it's predictable yes, but that is not ALL you have. If Falco players do not utilize all their options when recovering, they are going to get gimped, period. This hold especially true on counterpick stages, where Falco struggles immensely.

-Falco's as a whole need to learn to use their double jump to avoid tornado setups, Snake mine and grenade setups, and just to throw their opponents recovery off. You already do this you say? Well I STILL see it happening in tournaments! If you already lost your double jump that's one thing but...other players know the limits of Falco's recovery, and take advantage when the situation occurs.

-Phantasm Canceling. I know Phantasm canceling is VERY HARD to get down consistently in a tournament setting, but...Falco's as a whole are not utilizing the unlocked potential in this move.


Shine Recovering
Using the shine in an offensive or defensive manner to recover back to the stage. Especially good with mindgames and simply throwing off the opponent's timing when they go to edgeguard. Falco's as a whole are not using this as an option to mixup their recovery. Being safe is one thing, but safe is often predictable. Being predictable means the opponent has the upper hand.

Here are several examples of Jem mixing up his recovery vs DSF's Snake.
Grand Finals TourneyPlay! Washington Regional Tournament
Jem vs DieSuperFly (Starts around 6:54-6:58)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRADYWfIY7s

Take notes on this match (Games 2 and 3) if you play Falco.

Jem shines right over the Snake who setup an obvious counter to Falco's phantasm recovery. Snake was utterly confused when Falco returned to the stage, unfortunately, Jem did not completely capitalize on the opportunity. Jem must have been taking notes...this is in the Grand Finals people! Versus DSF no less! (Unfortunately, he might be retiring from Brawl, rumor I heard). There are many other notable tactics that Jem used to win Game 3 vs. DSF's Snake. I was quite impressed.

More input on the Matchup vs. Snake

The key to winning in this matchup is to be aggressive against Snake in the air. Here is a great example I found from a recent tournament showing just how aggressive the Falco player was at capitalizing on Snake's weakness in the air. This is the same reason that M2k's Metaknight beat Ally; he was very aggressive against him and hardly gave him the opportunity to return to the ground.

LOBSTER4 Vids (OBM - G&W, Dazwa - ZSS, Darc - MK/Falco/Marth, Nuro - Snake, Others)
Darc (Falco) vs Nuro (Snake)
Match 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w834MshdR2o
Match 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w834MshdR2o

In the first Match, I found it interesting how Darc started off with a barrage of grounded lasers and the Snake player couldn't even move. He did a lot of things right in this matchup. I would take notes.

Input on the Metaknight Matchup

Currently the Falco boards list the matchup as 50:50.
Currently the Metaknight boards list the matchup as 55:45 their favor.

Realistically, I do not see how Falco as a whole can go even with Metaknight in this matchup. Metaknight without a doubt will be banning Jungle Japes, and practically every other character you face will do the same.

Let's say Falco is dead even with the Metaknight in terms of skill. Metaknight will just choose a stage where Falco will gimp himself due to his horrid recovery, and will ultimately win the set. What can the Falco player due to come out on top over a competitive Metaknight player. The answer? Not a whole lot.

Let's take the worst case scenario. In this example, Jem wins the match vs. DSF's Snake. DSF being competitive does not want to risk losing the set. Therefore, he changes characters and chooses Metaknight, and not only that, counterpicks the stage to put Falco at a disadvantage. What are the odds of Jem winning this match...honestly.

Grand Finals TourneyPlay! Washington Regional Tournament
Jem (Falco) vs. DSF (Metaknight)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ldJbW2xMis

Reviewing the video...was there ANYTHING Jem could have done to win this match with all the odds against him?

Why is this important? It ultimately boils down to someone counterpicking the Falco, with both MK and the stage against him. How do Falco's get around this in competitive play. If your answer is "Pick up Metaknight", that just reinforces a common trend in Brawl where people pick up or change to Metaknight to handle their bad matchups.


Input on the Ice Climbers Matchup

As we all know by now, it is very difficult for Falco players to handle Ice Climbers in tournaments. How do we deal with this situation and come out on top consistently? I cannot find a recent tournament video where a Falco bested a competent Ice Climbers player in a tournament.

At a recent tournament: BIO2, DEHF as Falco attempts to take down Fiction's Ice Climbers. Fiction knew quite well he could not win against DEHF as Wario, so he went with Ice Climbers. A decision that many players make to come out on top over a Falco player they cannot deal with. I respect DEHF a great deal as a Falco player but...

Round 1 DEHF falco vs. Fiction ICs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqT022__pek

Round 3 DEHF falco vs. Fiction IC's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B_yHYamTu0&feature=channel_page

Reviewing these videos...was there ANYTHING DEHF could have done to win this set with all the odds against him?

If your answer is "Pick up Metaknight", that just reinforces a common trend in Brawl where people pick up or change to Metaknight to handle their bad matchups. However, in this particular matchup, there is not much the Falco player can due to come out on top. Falco generally does not have the options to deal with a competant IC's player.

Anther in this situation (a great Brawl tournament player who plays Pikachu) counterpicks IC's vs IC's when he finds himself outmatched. Since he knows it is nearly impossible to overcome a good IC's player as Pikachu, he does something about it. Once he gets past the IC's matchup, he continues to beast with his Pikachu.

TL;DR Version

Falco's tournament results in 09' do not reflect his position in the tierlist. I believe he is quite likely to drop in the next tier list to the likes of Game and Watch and Diddy Kong if tournament Falco's do not step up their game.

 

[GMo]

Diddy Kong's novelty will wear off. When people are used to the match-up and can manage bananas/other Diddy tricks better than now (inevitable) it will show Diddy is really solid, but probably not top 5 material.

G&W's problem is his two of his 3 worst match-ups are MK/Snake. So it is really hard to win big in a competitive atmosphere with him.

 

[Blistering Speed]

A good post, especially relative to your join date, but there are definately some flaws.

1) I think you're making too big a deal about Falco's recovery, Falco's should never need to use B Up unless they've been spiked and if you're playing well you shouldn't be getting spiked anyway. Illusion is very fast and cover a large horizontal distance with possibility of height mixup with Falco's great double jump, the pure option of going for either the stage or the edge with such speed makes it very hard to gimp.

2) A lot of Diddy's success is matchup inexperience. When was the last time you saw one of Diddy's opponents single bananna locking or a Yoshi taking advantage of his great dribble. That's right, you haven't, because people simple haven't put in the effort yet. This is temporary, when this does start happening, Diddy will still be good because of his over all good moveset and bannana offense, but he'll be much less of a thread comparatively.

3) IMO, G&W could deserve 3rd. He has **** matchups, the best aerial game, an ungimpable recovery and kills like it's still Melee. If something's discovered to lessen the disadvantage to MK and Snake, I'm fairly sure he will move there.

I personally don't believe Falco deserves 3rd anyway regardless. His camping is still the best in the game but in a game of Brawl's shield and airdodge mechanics, it's less of a big deal. His CG is no longer an instant spike to potential easy gimp which leaves us with Falco's fairly evident problem, killing. If Falco's killing with F Smash, it's usually because of his enemies mistake and being dependant on an opponents mistakes is never a good sign (Sonic, C Falcon etc.), which leaves us with the awkward U Smash and only decent B Air (in terms of KO power). When it comes down to it, Falco is a pretty hollow character, he has a few extremely good attributes which he has to depend on to cover the rest of his mediocrity. Not saying he's not a good character, but he's just not 3rd.

 

[Hyo]

If your answer is "Pick up Metaknight", that just reinforces a common trend in Brawl where people pick up or change to Metaknight to handle their bad matchups. However, in this particular matchup, there is not much the Falco player can due to come out on top. Falco generally does not have the options to deal with a competant IC's player.

I don't exactly know what you're trying to say with this.
Yes, IC are Falco's hard counter. So we say pick up Marth. I personally think it works fine, and covers match ups. For tier place 1 or 2, sure you can do it alone. That's why they're in their own tier levels. MK and Snake are where they are because as characters, they can take the world.

When you get to A tier, there are already multiple characters in them. This means that you can't just main Falco and win a tourney (at high levels of play.) You need a sub.

Diddy is gimmicky to some extent, and GW has broken kill potential, but is too light. After that, who could take Falco from third place? Falco plays with style and flair, evident by how he usually gets his kills: DACUS.

What is more stylish than connecting with two lasers then sliding across the stage to connect with a usmash? Doing a BPG after grabbing for damage is just as flashy.

Falco manipulates his opponents to make mistakes, and then capitalize on them. This doesn't mean he relies on them, but rather induces them to make the mistake in the first place.

What makes Falco 3rd is not his broken-ness (We know his CG isn't as effective as it used to be), but his metaphysical play style. He can phase in and out of camping to close up and in your face with relative ease. Surely, recovery is a point where he has issues, but if Falco is played how he's meant to, recovery should rarely happen.

It's this synergy that he has with his move set that allows him to play how he needs to play: adaptive, and effective.

 

[nash123]

About the vids with DEHF vs fiction...DEHF is making that match-up look possible more than anything in the first vid, i didnt watch the second but still, he had good strategies against ICS in that vid and almost won.

 

[Zanthos25]

When you get to A tier, there are already multiple characters in them. This means that you can't just main Falco and win a tourney (at high levels of play.) You need a sub.

Diddy is gimmicky to some extent, and GW has broken kill potential, but is too light. After that, who could take Falco from third place? Falco plays with style and flair, evident by how he usually gets his kills: DACUS.

I agree with what you are saying Hyo, but my point is...I have seen Game and Watch and Diddy Kong make it further in tournaments (of late) without relying on subs. Factors such as this could ultimately determine who goes where when the final tier list for Brawl is released. In the tournaments I have been seeing in 09' this seems to be the case.

 

[CY]

you kind of contradict yourself when you say falco can't get past the MK/snake match ups, when g&w has it worse against them imo. atleast falco has a decent chance against both of those characters.

falco does have a hard time against IC, but you rarely see good ICs anymore, there are just a few out there.

 

[Hyo]

you kind of contradict yourself when you say falco can't get past the MK/snake match ups, when g&w has it worse against them imo. atleast falco has a decent chance against both of those characters.

Falco goes 50:50 with MK some say.

With Snake, it depends from player to player, but just avoiding those tilts (i.e. lots of camping and CG), makes it plausible.

I agree with what you are saying Hyo, but my point is...I have seen Game and Watch and Diddy Kong make it further in tournaments (of late) without relying on subs. Factors such as this could ultimately determine who goes where when the final tier list for Brawl is released. In the tournaments I have been seeing in 09' this seems to be the case.

If this is (from what you've seen) the case, it appears to me that it's the player more than the character. There are many Falcos, but very few good Falcos.

 

[CY]

mmhmm that's why i said he has a decent match up with them the OP said MK/snake gave falco trouble.

 

[§witch]

GnW is only getting worse. He's so cookie-cutter that he can't really improve unless something new is discovered that allows him to actually do something different.

Hylain and OBM actually didn't do very well at CoT4, so I don't really know where these awesome tourney results from them you're talking about (no offense to either of you, you're both amazing players.)

 

[Zanthos25]

More the player than the character? I'm sorry, but that argument is just wet paper towel weak. You're saying if someone like M2k or Ally picked up Falco, his tournament placings would be better? Same thing could be applied to any character if that's your method of reasoning. Please none of this "This is the Falco Boards, I'm not going to belittle my character" bias, I'm trying to have an objective discussion here. Maybe Game and Watch/Diddy Kong might be a better character OVERALL than Falco, completely denying that fact is just naivety at its best. Let the tournament results speak for themselves.

Just look at the growth of Diddy Kong as a character; he moved up FOUR places since the previous tier list, and is bound to move up again. While Falco moved up 2 places to his 3rd position, this may or may not have been before everyone learned how to tech his chainspike.

The fact that few "good" players pick up and play Falco could be another thing. Maybe his learning curve to perform well competitively is REALLY HIGH. Maybe these players get frustrated because everyone already knows how to get around a Falco and their general playstyle. Maybe these players don't want to risk playing Falco over Snake or Metaknight or any other character.

Don't get me wrong, I think Falco is a very interesting character, and that's why I continue to read these forums and watch tournament vids. However, I still believe that Falco has a lot of untapped potential that players are not realizing.

So in summary, I never firmly said that Falco WAS DEFINATELY GOING TO MOVE DOWN IN THE TIER LIST. I'm just saying that these Falco boards seem less open to accepting new ideas and changing their playstyles in order to become less predictable.

Use what works right? Well, funny thing. If Falco players were doing everything right, DIDDY KONG AND MR GAME AND WATCH WOULD NOT BE PLAYING HIGHER THAN HIM IN THE MAJORITY OF TOURNAMENTS THIS YEAR.

Step up your game, Falco mains. This is a challenge.

Hylain and OBM actually didn't do very well at CoT4, so I don't really know where these awesome tourney results from them you're talking about (no offense to either of you, you're both amazing players.)

This is just an example from yesterdays tournament
HOBO 14=2/28/09=Houston,tx=54 players

1vs1

1: Dojo (meta)
2: infinity (meta)
3: Razer (snake)
4: Lee (lucario/meta)
5: Hylian (GW)
5: KOS-MOS (all peach)
7: sandtrap (meta/peach)
7: Gnes (diddy)
9: Kown (pit)
9: Roy R (marth)
9: Santi (tl)
9: Mr. 3000 (sonic)
13: light (GW/meta)
13: RT (lucario)
13: CY (falco)
13: Esca (pit/diddy)
17: Sethlon (falco/meta)
17: Cake (olimar)
17: Jerm (tl)
17: ice (snake)
17: phantomX (wario)
17: DMG (wario/diddy)
17: Bluejay (mario)
17: Zori (olimar)
25: bwett (yoshi)
25: adin (ness)
25: carnage (meta)
25: Magitek_knight (lucas/ness)
25: Slip (???)
25: bad news bear (marth/pika)
25: Tallman (lucas/ROB)
25: SuperKalo (wolf)
33: Ight (fox)
33: chaos (???)
33: gen (???)
33: Trella (lucario)
33: Xarishro (IC)
33: SG (???)
33: Cyphus (dk)
33: Retro (samus)
33: JS (ness)
33: wemp (tl)
33: Seiya (pit)
33: Gonza (falco?)
33: Dphat (marth)
33: Azuzu (rob)
33: Xyro (samus)
49: takeurlife (marth)
49: T-rex (snake)
49: pierre (lucas)
49: Oscar
49: Hiza (falcon)
49: nana (zelda)

Alright this is just one tournament but it is quite evident of what I have been seeing in recent tournaments. Game and Watch AND Diddy both placing higher than the highest Falco.

 

[Vlade]

One reason why falco isn't placing as well as snake is the fact that there are nowhere near as many falco players as snake or Meta players.

The number of top-placing falco players doesn't even compare to the number of top-placing MK's, so you can't really use the argument of 'falco doesn't have better tournament results' unless there are the same number of MK and Snake players as Falco players.

I believe that Falco is fine in 3rd on the tier list, since he has the best chance of going head to head against the top tier characters. Game and Watch suffers against Snake especially, and MK as well.

Hyo said what I was thinking. Falco has the ability to switch in and out of playstyles, and is so versatile that he can cater to literally any match-up. He may have almost unwinnable match-ups against IC's, but looking at DEHF's matches means that it's possible to win. We just need to go more in-depth with the match-up.

 

[Hyo]

Hyo said what I was thinking. Falco has the ability to switch in and out of playstyles, and is so versatile that he can cater to literally any match-up. He may have almost unwinnable match-ups against IC's, but looking at DEHF's matches means that it's possible to win. We just need to go more in-depth with the match-up.

Truth.

A lot of the time, Falcos have got themselves thinking this is virtually a 10:0, an unwinnable match, and that there is no point in trying to best the IC. This gets them in a defensive position both in game, and psychologically.

I've talked to (and played) lots of IC mains, and the way Falco plays against them is not to camp. No, Falco plays as aggressive, flashy, and acrobatic as he possibly can. Reason being, IC can't grab the air, and Falco can keep up the punishment. Using IAP as an escape mechanism, Falco can chip away at the IC and in a hope to separate the two, can win the match.

The fact that few "good" players pick up and play Falco could be another thing. Maybe his learning curve to perform well competitively is REALLY HIGH. Maybe these players get frustrated because everyone already knows how to get around a Falco and their general playstyle. Maybe these players don't want to risk playing Falco over Snake or Metaknight or any other character.

What are you trying to say here? I still don't understand. You say that "the player is why" is a weak argument, then proceed to say that "no good players is why Falco is bound to drop." Risking Falco against Snake and MK? Who else would you suggest? Diddy is a maybe with MK, while Snake has no issues. GW has a terrible time with both of them, and his play style isn't getting much different.

So he has a high learning curve. This shouldn't discourage players, but rather make the "good" players go to him for more. When they tire of mastering GW(which doesn't take very long), Falco would be the natural choice because he's "harder" to master.

DIDDY KONG AND MR GAME AND WATCH WOULD NOT BE PLAYING HIGHER THAN HIM IN THE MAJORITY OF TOURNAMENTS THIS YEAR.

It's March 1. We've still got a long year ahead of us buddy.

So in summary, I never firmly said that Falco WAS DEFINATELY GOING TO MOVE DOWN IN THE TIER LIST. I'm just saying that these Falco boards seem less open to accepting new ideas and changing their playstyles in order to become less predictable.

I know what you're saying. Even still you're pushing the idea. Shine jumping is no different from double jumping, and no amount of persuasion will get the Falco boards to think otherwise Zanthos. I remember when you proposed the idea, and argued with us about it to no end. Still, we've all tried to look into shine jumping, and concluded it ineffective.

We still do.

 

[Vlade]

Also, your example just reinforced my statement. If you look carefully at the results for HOBO 14, there are definitely more diddy and G&W players than falco players.

I'm just saying that these Falco boards seem less open to accepting new ideas and changing their playstyles in order to become less predictable.

Sif. We're definitely open, as long as it is actually useful and helps the metagame. For example, DEHF and Shaya both helped my playstyle. Shaya suggested switching up dthrow follow-ups after CG %. DEHF recommended stopping a jab combo and then doing it again. Things like these are what helps, not shine jumping.

 

[Zanthos25]

Use what works right? Well, funny thing. If Falco players were doing everything right, DIDDY KONG AND MR GAME AND WATCH WOULD NOT BE PLAYING HIGHER THAN HIM IN THE MAJORITY OF TOURNAMENTS THIS YEAR.

It's March 1. We've still got a long year ahead of us buddy.

Well prove me wrong then. Seeing as how you are speaking unanimously, I'm expecting results. Actions speak louder than words. That is why I offer proof as to why Falco will certainly drop in the tier rankings if his tournament results are not up to par.

I know what you're saying. Even still you're pushing the idea. Shine jumping is no different from double jumping, and no amount of persuasion will get the Falco boards to think otherwise Zanthos. I remember when you proposed the idea, and argued with us about it to no end. Still, we've all tried to look into shine jumping, and concluded it ineffective.

We still do.

Making me laugh over here Hyo. I don't know what you want to call what Jem did with his reflector/shine in the example I will post AGAIN. You can choose to call it whatever you'd like. However my point still stands; since Jem used theses tactics in the grand finals against one of the best Snakes in the country...it holds merit, period. Before I didn't have any tournament evidence...now I do.

Lol at it eating your double jump. This shows me you didn't even test this at all. If used on the ground it does not eat your double jump. Saying its the same as double jumping is just naive. You have a hitbox in front of you that reflects all projectiles as you approach or recover. Is that the same as double jumping? I think not.

I'm not sure how you can speak for the entire Falco boards. Unless you play as well as Jem's Falco vs. DSF's Snake, you don't have evidence to back up your claims. Maybe you didn't watch Jem's match or accurately examine what he did right in the matchup. (One of the only Falco's to make it to the Grand Finals in major tournament play this year).

Here is what I am talking about again using Shine against Snake.
Grand Finals TourneyPlay! Washington Regional Tournament
Jem vs DieSuperFly
(Starts around 6:54-6:58) Already talked about this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRADYWfIY7s

(8:04-8:08) This time Jem uses a shine and jumps at the same time, then baits Snake with a aerial after double jumping. Oh my goodness! You can double jump after performing this on the ground!

(10:17-10:19) In the same video he uses the shine to reflect Snake's Nikitia which he attempted to edgeguard Falco with.) If he used a normal shine he would have SDed. This ultimately leds to him winning the match.

 

[DEHF]

Using the shine is pretty useful sometimes I tend to use it a lot more when I'm playing against a game and watch

 

[CY]

me and seth got 13th/17th but the competition was pretty **** stiff. you can't base anything off of one tournament anyway.

g&w is rarely seen at the top of the results.

 

[J4pu]

6:53 punished
9:22 KOed

Nobody ever said to never use Jump and shine at the same time.
we merely told you it was very situational and you were way over-promoting it. (your video made it seem as if you thought randomly jumping around using it was somehow helpful to avoiding your opponent) we also don't think it needs a name for the same reason that it is something to be used on rare occasions.

you can replace all of the "we" 's with "I" so that it doesn't look like I'm talking for everybody else.

 

[Zanthos25]

Just wanted to say, Thanks J4pu. I only asked that someone acknowledge the fact that it does have situational use.

Look, I'm not an expert around here, my join date is recent, I have a low post count and I don't play competitively. Therefore, it's not best to ask me about Falco as I don't have much firsthand experience playing him.

I just wanted people to realize....yeah, I could see myself using this tactic in..."this" particular situation when the time is right. I agree the way I first presented jumping and its applications with shine was WAY over the top. I apologize for that. I'm sorry.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Please don't bring up the shine jump . . . .

More the player than the character? I'm sorry, but that argument is just wet paper towel weak. You're saying if someone like M2k or Ally picked up Falco, his tournament placings would be better? Same thing could be applied to any character if that's your method of reasoning.

How is it a weak argument? Tournament results don't show Falco going out and fighting other characters. They show Falco users going out and fighting other players. If M2K and Ally would decide to pick up Falco his standings would definitely improve because 1.) they're both very solid players regardless of who they use 2.) that would mean more Falco representation 3.) it would mean less MK representation (I forget who Ally uses).

 

[J4pu]

(I forget who Ally uses).

*Facepalm*

Spoiler

10snakes

 

[salaboB]

Well prove me wrong then. Seeing as how you are speaking unanimously, I'm expecting results. Actions speak louder than words. That is why I offer proof as to why Falco will certainly drop in the tier rankings if his tournament results are not up to par.

From everything I've seen in the tournament rankings thread Falco's only reason for being so high currently is a massive, nearly fluke claiming of 1st and 2nd in one big tournament. I've not seen anything like that before or after (Hence believing it mostly a fluke) and have seen Falco's points steadily declining compared to the characters near him. So why does it seem like such a surprise to you that he's not going to easily hold on to that spot?

Maybe an explanation for why you think (With his current metagame) he even should have reached that high in the first place would be in order.

 

[ftl]

So what are you saying in all these posts, zanthos?

If Falco doesn't win much, he'll drop in the tier list?

Sure. That's obvious. If a character who used to win a lot starts winning less, that'll be evidence against him being that high. Is that really all you're saying in this thread? If that's the case, you can substitute any A-tier character into that sentence, and you'll probably be right...

But in Ankoku's rankings so far, Falco's holding up fine, in third place. And they were updated last week, it's not like they're months out of date.

Perhaps if you take only the last month, then Diddy and GW are doing better. I haven't checked. Then again, a month or two ago there was a period where Falco took over the #2 spot from Snake on those rankings... it doesn't matter if it's only temporary. We'll see whether it holds up, I guess... I'm not going to speculate, I don't know.

But your arguments about why it will change aren't very strong, I think. Everything you say about the MK-Falco and Snake-Falco matchups was known before; the discovery of how to survive the CG->spike doesn't change those matchups much. So that's not a reason for the tier list to *change*.

(Heck, if anything, you're claiming that G&W might move ahead of Falco, and he has a *horrible* Snake matchup...)

 

[B-Mon]

All in all its not really "Falco" living up to expectations, but more the quantity of Falco PLAYERS living up to Falco's status, get me?

Few Good Falcos place well in tournaments full of MKs and Snakes. Why? because these are 2 match-ups inwhich Falco players really have to concentrate and play to their highest potentials.

People do have a tendency to just join the MK/Snake fanboat aswell just because those two characters have an easier time in tournaments.

 

[BentoBox]

Also, your example just reinforced my statement. If you look carefully at the results for HOBO 14, there are definitely more diddy and G&W players than falco players.

So if there are practically no Falco players displaying what the character is truly capable of at high levels of play, how can you be sure that Falco even merits such a high spot in the tier list? Theory? Who are the Falcos who constantly place well in large scale tournaments? I just ran a search in Ankoku's thread and I could not find any significant wins in tourneys featuring high skill densities (I have heard about DEHF and SK92 tho)~ I could be very wrong in stating that you guys aren't really consistent in holding up this conception of Falco effectively being the 3rd best character in Brawl, but I honestly don't see it.

 

[Vlade]

DEHF and SK92 are pretty much winning most of the points in that list. Falco DOES place, but there just aren't as many falcos as there are other characters.

He's still coming 3rd anyway.

 

[M@v]

IMO I dont think Falco is third best. I think he is fourth behind GW. GW's matchup chart is 2nd only to MK, and he has generally placed better than Falco. GW has only 1 weakness too: weight. Don't forget GW is also one of Falco's worst matchups.

 

[Vlade]

^ correction. G&W definitely isn't one of falco's worst matchups.

And I'm pretty sure that falco has the best match-ups after MK? I might be wrong.

 

[Hylian]

IMO I dont think Falco is third best. I think he is fourth behind GW. GW's matchup chart is 2nd only to MK, and he has generally placed better than Falco. GW has only 1 weakness too: weight. Don't forget GW is also one of Falco's worst matchups.

What are you talking about? GW's match-ups are horrible...his 3 worst match-ups (Snake, Marth, MK) are all very common in tournaments and they all beat him pretty badly. Diddy is his 4th worst and that's 6/4 in diddys favor. They are also very common.

GW vs Falco isn't even close to Falcos worst match-up lol. It's close to even with a small advantage for GW.

 

[Vlade]

^ Glad to see a respected player agree with my thoughts

 

[Park0o]

What are you talking about? GW's match-ups are horrible...his 3 worst match-ups (Snake, Marth, MK) are all very common in tournaments and they all beat him pretty badly. Diddy is his 4th worst and that's 6/4 in diddys favor. They are also very common.

GW vs Falco isn't even close to Falcos worst match-up lol. It's close to even with a small advantage for GW.

GW does ok i think. falco is just a beast. lol

 

[BentoBox]

Weight isn't even that much of an issue with bucket cancelling q_q

Marth really doesn't lose to anyone but MK and Wario only loses to D3. Falco also handles Snake and MK better (theoretically). The chars in A tiers can easily be shifted around, the gap between them is still very narrow~

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

So if there are practically no Falco players displaying what the character is truly capable of at high levels of play, how can you be sure that Falco even merits such a high spot in the tier list? Theory? Who are the Falcos who constantly place well in large scale tournaments? I just ran a search in Ankoku's thread and I could not find any significant wins in tourneys featuring high skill densities (I have heard about DEHF and SK92 tho)~ I could be very wrong in stating that you guys aren't really consistent in holding up this conception of Falco effectively being the 3rd best character in Brawl, but I honestly don't see it.

As what was said before it's not that there are not people capable of high level play, there are people who use falco at a high skill level. The problem is that there are so FEW falco players.

To me, Falco's indiviual match ups are what really causes him to be placed high. Characters like Snake, MK, G&W and DDD have a lot of good/decent match-ups against the rest of the roster and really bog them down preventing them from doing really well. Falco does not particular stand out as having a ton of match ups that are hard counters or even a soft counter. Most match ups are either neutral with Falco or slight favor in one character. Although falco does do well at battling it out with the other characters at the top of the tier list. Allowing him a place in tourney rankings.

Either way the tier list is only in it's 2nd phase. The first tier list had to base everything off of new characters while new things were being discovered and applied. The 2nd one started to iron out any problems that might have been present in the 1st. So I think that right now there are still characters that need to be determined for exact placings, but where everyone is right now is pretty much the area where they are going to stay and only move one-two ranks out of place depending upon tournament rankings.

So yeah, there really is no need to say Falco is for sure the 3rd best. We just know for sure he is placed high for his ability to combat the other top tier characters and decent match-ups against the rest of the roster. Typically those factors for the good match-ups are his core gameplay: Versatility.

Lasers/reflector forces approaches of practically every character in the game placing falco into the advantage as approaching is typically not in favor of the person approaching with brawl mechanics. From there falco plays a decent ground game and air game with use of jabs, CG, tilts and aerials. Only problem is killing early and recovery. Killing is not bad as others as falco has decent options with an upsmash that comes out on frame 7 (snake's uptilt comes out on frame 6/7) and Bair, but that's not all. Because of the mixture of falco's playing style he can keep a steady pressure the entire game causing more chances for people to make mistakes and therefore getting an early kill that way, so this way Falco is not quiet like CF or sonic who have to relay on the oppoenet to make mistakes.

 

[p8nted]

Just wanted to say, Thanks J4pu. I only asked that someone acknowledge the fact that it does have situational use.

Look, I'm not an expert around here, my join date is recent, I have a low post count and I don't play competitively. Therefore, it's not best to ask me about Falco as I don't have much firsthand experience playing him.

I just wanted people to realize....yeah, I could see myself using this tactic in..."this" particular situation when the time is right. I agree the way I first presented jumping and its applications with shine was WAY over the top. I apologize for that. I'm sorry.

The second I saw this thread, i knew it was going to be about "jumping and it's applications with shine." Do you have a job yet buddy? Are you still desperately seeking approval from complete strangers on the Falco boards?

Pointless thread is pointless.

btw, gj at HOBO 14 Hylian.
Though I'm sad you didn't use IC's.

 

[Hylian]

The second I saw this thread, i knew it was going to be about "jumping and it's applications with shine." Do you have a job yet buddy? Are you still desperately seeking approval from complete strangers on the Falco boards?

Pointless thread is pointless.

btw, gj at HOBO 14 Hylian.
Though I'm sad you didn't use IC's.

Thanks. I've been focusing on GW lol.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The second I saw this thread, i knew it was going to be about "jumping and it's applications with shine." Do you have a job yet buddy? Are you still desperately seeking approval from complete strangers on the Falco boards?

dick, he apologized.

 

[Turbo Ether]

G&W is not better than Falco, but Diddy might be.

MK

Snake/Diddy*
Falco
DDD/Marth/Wario*

G&W
etc

* = it's debateable who's better.

 

[Darxmarth23]

G&W is not better than Falco, but Diddy might be.

MK

Snake/Diddy*
Falco
DDD/Marth/Wario*

G&W
etc

* = it's debateable who's better.

Marth boards think its their advantage.

 

[Hyo]

Marth boards think its their advantage.

It is their advantage (Falco v. Marth that is.) That said, Falco is still higher tier than Marth.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I don't like how people judge Fiction vs DEHF solely on those vids. He's beaten my IC before with falco (though rare loool 2 gay), my wario generally goes even with his falco (the past few tournaments falco/wario has been even in games, ive 2 stocked him before 2 >_<). Do not use those videos from that ONE TOURNAMENT to judge the entire character or player matchup...its annoying.

EDIT: also....vs DEHF its like a rock paper scissors match...whoever wins the the first round/wins the double blind pick wins. (he picks metaknight on my ICs)

Our matchups go like this:

wario=falco
wario>mk
Ice climbers<mk
iceclimbers>falco