Q&A Falco, King of the Birds: Game Play Discussion

[SoundChow]

I'm really am liking Falco a lot more on version 1.0.6 in comparison to previous versions. May just be placebo, but his frame date in general seems to be much better (Dash attack, U-Smash, and F-smash all feel faster than previously). Nair is also much better as it can trade with attacks unlike in previous versions of the game, improving falco's previously horrid disadvantageous state. Throws feel more reliable too. Overall, he feels like a much faster character.

For some reason I feel like Falco is almost exactly the same in version 1.06. I don't know if they buffed any of his frame data, but if they did it's probably only as much as meta knight's nair (thanks for those 2 frames sakurai!). I thought for some reason he was faster while trying him out on a 3ds, but he feels the exact same speed when playing on the wii u. Hopefully in the future they'll add a full hitbox to his phantasm and a reliable backthrow.

 

[Ffamran]

Moving this conversation here since it's more about Falco's gameplay.

Nair spiking? That sounds too good to be true. I can't believe it until so video proof is shown.
Fair still does give a weak spike if it collides with another hit, so that options is still around.

I can also say the nair doesn't magnetize the opponent, it still wiffs all the time, that is untrue.

I think he meant Nair stage spiking which we've seen already and one of the recent videos I linked had a Japanese Falco do it. Nair gimps are possible too, but I think Falco either has to make it whiff which should be easy or do it at low percents since at higher percents, he could accidentally save the opponent.

Yeah, that's what he meant.

I might be wrong and it might just be a placebo but can someone confirm the Nair for be because I was testing it on different characters but after using it on Olimar It gives be that gut feeling. I also found myself stage spiking with reverse hairs offstage

I'm going to look for the video and I believe Steelsburg did it once too. Just posting to make sure things are clear.

Edit: Nair stage spike happens here from a recent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On5x3m-hvno&feature=player_detailpage#t=156.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Steelsburg does it here on Shaperr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywvEUh1b5Ec&feature=player_detailpage#t=360.

 

[Trieste SP]

Played some Falco today... he's not bad. Just lacking.

The fix to his up-smash is proving to be quite useful.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Oh right, I've nair stage spiked once but nair seems like the worst option to go for about 80% of the time in my opinion so I haven't tried it much.
I wish I still had the replay. Dammit Nintendo

 

[Ffamran]

I asked Lavani about Falco and Fox's pivot grabs. Yeah, we should start using pivot grabs more, but they're slower, frame 11, if I remember correctly. This probably makes it really feel like Falco and Fox and Captain Falcon and Ganondorf have the same hitboxes for their grabs, but at different speeds... Welp, Falco's long fingers don't mean crap, do they?

I guess...

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Pivot grabs are useful, but I'm still trying to get them down consistently. Sometimes when I try to pivot grab with Z, I get ftilt instead. Anyone know why?

 

[Snackss]

Probably something about how the grab button is just a macro for shield + attack. I do it by inputting grab first and then reverse direction in the next few frames. It's more lenient and noticeable with slower grabs like Greninja's.

 

[Ffamran]

Pivot grabs are useful, but I'm still trying to get them down consistently. Sometimes when I try to pivot grab with Z, I get ftilt instead. Anyone know why?

Play as Bowser and you'll love pivot grabs even more. Isn't that, right, @Xadrin?

As for inputting, I think you have to press grab and the direction you're going at the same time. If you do it too late, then you might dash attack instead, if you pivot and then press grab, you'll do Ftilt.

Edit: I apparently don't understand the difference between "late" and "soon".

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Play as Bowser and you'll love pivot grabs even more. Isn't that, right, @Xadrin?


As for inputting, I think you have to press grab and the direction you're going at the same time. If you do it too soon, then you might dash attack instead, if you pivot and then press grab, you'll do Ftilt.

Holy crap, and the accidental dash attacks too! You really get me, Ffamran. Yeah I think I just gotta grind out the timing a bit more, I guess.

 

[Ffamran]

Holy crap, and the accidental dash attacks too! You really get me, Ffamran. Yeah I think I just gotta grind out the timing a bit more, I guess.

I think I meant too late. I messed around with foxtrots and foxtrot pivots, but I don't remember it clearly. For Link, he can foxtrot Dash Attack and I think foxtrot, delay so the dash ends, and Ftilt. Pivot Ftilts make sense and I think he can foxtrot pivot Ftilt or foxtrot pivot, continue the dash, and Dash Attack. Basically, he's capable of hitting you hard with Ftilt mind-games or hit you even harder with Dash Attack mind games.

So the input would be from standing, walking, or dashing: pivot and Jab, tilt, Smash, Special, etc. or pivot, foxtrot Dash Attack since you have to be in a dash to Dash Attack, or pivot + grab to do a pivot grab. Does that make any sense? There's also pivot walking which I guess you could do and use pivot grab out of it along with perfect pivot grabs which I think ends up with you doing a standing grab instead. In a way, I think it's like RARing aerials.

Edit: You might want to Google it next time (and not listen to me). Remember Smash Bros. DOJO!! in Brawl's time? Yeah, there's an official guide on simple techniques: http://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/howto/technique/technique10.html.

To quote from the DOJO!!: "While dashing, press the direction opposite your current heading while performing a grab. You’ll get more range out of this kind of grab, so try pulling a 180 and scooping up your unsuspecting opponent with it."

Or head over to the wiki: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Pivot_grab. Punish them rolls with pivot grab!

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Pivot grabs are useful, but I'm still trying to get them down consistently. Sometimes when I try to pivot grab with Z, I get ftilt instead. Anyone know why?

I have the same issue is there a timing I'm missing?
If it could do it consistently I would use it more but I'm worried it 's going to wiff on me.

 

[Shaya]

It's a matter of what you're pressing first, the opposing direction or the Z button.

 

[Ffamran]

It's a matter of what you're pressing first, the opposing direction or the Z button.

So, grab > pivot = pivot grab while pivot > grab = Ftilt. Cool, I guess that's clarified.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

It's a matter of what you're pressing first, the opposing direction or the Z button.

So, grab > pivot = pivot grab while pivot > grab = Ftilt. Cool, I guess that's clarified.

I love you guys so much

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Oh thanks so much, I've got to start practicing the timing now.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

This may sound like a stupid question mostly because it probably is but, as a non falco main i find it weird that he feels faster and slicker after the patch on 3ds then he does on wii u and it's weirding me out. any theories on why this could be the case? it's not a control thing since i prefer my controls on the wii u in general so i dunno...

 

[Gamegenie222]

DLC characters like Mewtwo will have a 1 month period for people to grind out the MU, so after a month, we would cover 8 characters before Mewtwo can be discussed. I'm doing this because I don't want misconceptions and first impressions making the discussion sketchy along with the patch potentially changing how everything works. So, say Falco miraculously gains a Gentleman Jab, well, that makes playing Falco and MUs much more different now. Unless it's a severe issue like say a future DLC character, perhaps Mewtwo, dominates the game. That's someone we should study immediately. Diddy didn't really dominate in opinion - as in broken as like Brawl Meta Knight - and nobody asked for him until recently.

Anyway, because of the patch, I held back on introducing MU discussions. We were supposed to have covered DK, Diddy, Pikachu, and someone else by now. I'm probably going to introduce DK and Diddy next week because of the patch and making sure stuff's been settled. You can request anyone now, except for Mewtwo.

Sorry for bringing this back up but I'm ready to discuss the Villager MU in a few days from now during the Pikachu talk or after the Pikachu discussion talk.

 

[Ffamran]

All right since Pikachu was "unpaired" and I didn't really know who to pick. I was considering Little Mac, Bowser, and... yeah. Well, let's roll with Pikachu and Villager for next week. Didn't you fight a Villager at a recent tournament?

 

[Gamegenie222]

Yeah 2 of them at a local yesterday actually. I bopped the main one that gives me trouble and then got a bracket reset and he picked up Shiek recently only to beat me which was close. Sadly no vids was recorded but he's know as Skillager a midwest Villager player. Once we start it I tell that we are discussing it and him or someone else can tell the villager nerds to come over and discuss the MU.

Also not Smash 4 Falco related but man I miss me some dirty ass laser locks and DACUS.

 

[billpika]

Seems like the worst thing to do as Falco is approach. You're so much better off just staying away and popping a few shots, going in for easy punishes. He's also slow as peanut butter.

Playing as Pit against Falco, the player never approached and just stood away shooting. The match went to time.

 

[Ffamran]

Better start labbing Falco Phase, everyone. WE WILL BE EDGEGUARDED NO MORE!

Double-post for relative importance(, IMO):

Any invincibility caused by moves you grab the ledge with appears to carry into the frame(s?) where you would otherwise be vulnerable on said ledge snap. For example, a Sheik who hasn't disappeared via Up-B yet cannot be hit on a ledge snap due to the start-up invincibility carrying over. After she disappears, though, she's no longer invincible (and she reappears for that frame of vulnerability), so you can hit her if she grabs the ledge after that point.

While failing to replicate this with , I accidentally stumbled on what I think is what you actually discovered: when snapping to the ledge from above, the ledgesnap is fully invincible.

It seems that as long as you're above the ledge's horizontal plane, your ledgesnap is safe (which clears this up for me).

Demonstration with Falco Phase and Farore's Wind:

That might end up being a really big deal later down the line. I was testing what could get through a lingering Waft near the edge (granted, I was using two controllers at once, so it wasn't as precise as I would've liked), and I whiffed against Vanish three times, so I thought the invincibility is what it was.

What recovery moves get you above the ledge from a realistic recovery path?

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Better start labbing Falco Phase, everyone. WE WILL BE EDGEGUARDED NO MORE!

Wait wait wait, what is this saying? If we use Falco Phase to hit the ledge, our invincibility continues to the point our ledge invincibility runs out? Meaning we won't be hit by lingering hitboxes? :D

 

[Ffamran]

Wait wait wait, what is this saying? If we use Falco Phase to hit the ledge, our invincibility continues to the point our ledge invincibility runs out? Meaning we won't be hit by lingering hitboxes? :D

I think that's what @ TheReflexWonder is getting at.

It would make for dealing with Rosalina's set Luma at the ledge and holding down Jab to trap you from going to the ledge or above the ledge less painful. I know @Lavani has a gif of this somewhere.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

I think that's what @ TheReflexWonder is getting at.

It would make for dealing with Rosalina's set Luma at the ledge and holding down Jab to trap you from going to the ledge or above the ledge less painful. I know @Lavani has a gif of this somewhere.

Holy cannoli, this coupled with Distant Fire Bird could make Falco's recovery much less of a pain than it currently is. I'm gonna try using Phase to see how practical it is in practice, might not be a gamechanger but it could be great for certain matchups like Luma.

 

[Ffamran]

Holy cannoli, this coupled with Distant Fire Bird could make Falco's recovery much less of a pain than it currently is. I'm gonna try using Phase to see how practical it is in practice, might not be a gamechanger but it could be great for certain matchups like Luma.

End lag would be an issue though since I think Phase starts quicker, but travels shorter and has more end lag than Phantasm. Also, Falco would need to act immediately since he won't stay invincible for that long and Rosalina would just bait the ledge action. Distant Fire Bird is just asking for Rosalina to spike you since her vertical recovery is probably good enough to follow Falco and even then, all of her aerials are disjointed with Uair and Dair having the largest disjoints. The Rosie boards will discuss Falco during 5/6 to 5/13 I believe even though we didn't get any input from them when we started ours...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Lavani seems to suggest that I discovered something else (that works out largely the same way for you). It's not the invincibility carrying over, according to Lavani. It is that ledge snapping from above the ledge has no vulnerability. Either way, test this mess.

 

[Galaxian]

Howdy there, Falco mains! I've been playing the bird myself a little lately and I can safely say I'm hooked. Maybe even secondary-status hooked.

Onto my point - how do I deal with Toon Link, or just general spam in..well, general? I know his Reflector lasts about 50 years and is great for reflecting stuff but that can get predictable and it's awfully laggy when it misses. Should I just hop over them and try to approach? Or is spam what Falco falls prey to?

Also, what are the "main" Falco sets for customs right now? I know ZeRo used 1213 (or was it 1123?) and I'd like input from you guys too. Void Reflector seems really good, but what else is alright?

 

[Ffamran]

For spam, it's kind of weird in a sense that Falco can't hold reflect/absorb like Fox or Ness or have a long, lingering reflect like the Pits, Zelda, and Palutena, but he's considered an anti-zoner or counter-projectile character for some reason. Personally, I think the others, especially Fox would be a better counter-projectile character since he can reflect and rush in while Falco will have to slowly make his way towards while reflecting. For me, I sometimes tank the projectiles which you shouldn't do as Falco, but whatever. You could just power shield, reflect things you know will hit back, so don't reflect Lloid Rockets from the other side of the stage, dodge, jump, and tank projectiles.

The reason why I tank projectiles is that I don't like spamming Reflector since it's basically showing that you can and will reflect and it creates this panic reflect habit. I'd rather save it for the occasional punish or as a trump card if I know someone's fishing for that Charge Shot, Aura Sphere, or Shadow Ball kill. Since default Reflector is fast, Falco can kill almost pointblank with reflected power projectiles; either Falco's up close and uses it or he's away, but Reflector reaches them when they shoot. It's the ultimate backfire.

Panicking is one thing Olimar/Alph and Duck Hunt thrive on as they can load up on a ton of damage through massive damage per second (DPS) or continuous pressure. Villager on the other hand would love to bait out Reflector which is why I don't like getting in the habit of using Falco's Reflector like that and rather use it more for spacing and as a trump card.

In the end, you have to play patiently with Falco and even if the match is fast-paced, you can't lose your cool with Falco. You have to be on point and creative with Falco in this game.

We don't have a Toon Link discussion yet, but we do have a Link's which you could reference, along with Samus's and Villager's.

I don't mess with customs enough - blame the 3DS -, but the official custom sets thread is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-standard-custom-moveset-project-falco.380331/.

Also, if you can pull this off consistently in the heat of battle, then you've got one dangerous tech against people: http://smashboards.com/threads/falcos-fast-fire-bird-perfect-landing-slide.395739/.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

For spam, it's kind of weird in a sense that Falco can't hold reflect/absorb like Fox or Ness or have a long, lingering reflect like the Pits, Zelda, and Palutena, but he's considered an anti-zoner or counter-projectile character for some reason. Personally, I think the others, especially Fox would be a better counter-projectile character since he can reflect and rush in while Falco will have to slowly make his way towards while reflecting. For me, I sometimes tank the projectiles which you shouldn't do as Falco, but whatever. You could just power shield, reflect things you know will hit back, so don't reflect Lloid Rockets from the other side of the stage, dodge, jump, and tank projectiles.

The reason why I tank projectiles is that I don't like spamming Reflector since it's basically showing that you can and will reflect and it creates this panic reflect habit. I'd rather save it for the occasional punish or as a trump card if I know someone's fishing for that Charge Shot, Aura Sphere, or Shadow Ball kill. Since default Reflector is fast, Falco can kill almost pointblank with reflected power projectiles; either Falco's up close and uses it or he's away, but Reflector reaches them when they shoot. It's the ultimate backfire.

Panicking is one thing Olimar/Alph and Duck Hunt thrive on as they can load up on a ton of damage through massive damage per second (DPS) or continuous pressure. Villager on the other hand would love to bait out Reflector which is why I don't like getting in the habit of using Falco's Reflector like that and rather use it more for spacing and as a trump card.

In the end, you have to play patiently with Falco and even if the match is fast-paced, you can't lose your cool with Falco. You have to be on point and creative with Falco in this game.

We don't have a Toon Link discussion yet, but we do have a Link's which you could reference, along with Samus's and Villager's.

I don't mess with customs enough - blame the 3DS -, but the official custom sets thread is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-standard-custom-moveset-project-falco.380331/.

Also, if you can pull this off consistently in the heat of battle, then you've got one dangerous tech against people: http://smashboards.com/threads/falcos-fast-fire-bird-perfect-landing-slide.395739/.

Falco is a better anti zoning character than fox because his reflector has less startup and end lag. Duration of his reflector is slightly worse than Zelda's, but in exchange, it has Far more range, making it much safer than most Reflector since you can activate it earlier and still safely reflect the projectile.

 

[Galaxian]

I'll take the benefit of the doubt and guess that Falco doesn't do too terribly well against spam. Then again, I just hate facing annoying Links/TLinks because they all play the same.

Much obliged though. I'll try to nab Fast Fire Bird at some point in time. Wish customs weren't so hard to unlock, ****

 

[Yojimbosan]

I'll take the benefit of the doubt and guess that Falco doesn't do too terribly well against spam. Then again, I just hate facing annoying Links/TLinks because they all play the same.

Much obliged though. I'll try to nab Fast Fire Bird at some point in time. Wish customs weren't so hard to unlock, ****

I think your best bet is just try to mix up reflector, short hops, dodge, and shield. If have good timing you can also jab some projectiles out of the air. I know you can do it with Mario's fireballs but not sure what else. It would have been great if he could duck under anything but nope.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

About Falco's bair. Sometimes I'm sending people to Mars at 90% damage, other times they thing barely has a knockback. Is there a sweetspot or late hit mechanic going on?

 

[Gamegenie222]

Yeah there is and there is a later hit type deal with it. You wanna deep in them to hit them for the full power of the bair otherwise if you hit them with like the tip area of the foot with the bair you get the weaker hit at least in my experience.

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah there is and there is a later hit type deal with it. You wanna deep in them to hit them for the full power of the bair otherwise if you hit them with like the tip area of the foot with the bair you get the weaker hit at least in my experience.

You can tip them, but you have to be on point. The strong hit lasts about 2 frames from frame 4 to 6 while the late hit is from 7 to 11. Spacing Falco's Bair would be great, but you have to deal with his air speed versus everyone's. The speed and power is why it's great as a sudden punish and why Falco can frame trap or sour-spot hit confirm with Uair to Bair. His Bair might be one of the fastest and strongest punishes.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

So what do you guys think of the D-air cancel? Worth learning?

 

[Trieste SP]

So what do you guys think of the D-air cancel? Worth learning?

It's good but extremely hard to pull off. I've been trying my best to master it but the timing is like 1-2 frames.

 

[Ffamran]

So, I compiled Falco's end lag data and it's actually similar to his Melee and Brawl end lag data. No IASA yet, but Falco technically hasn't been nerfed in any major way, but Blaster, his main way of forcing approaches and keeping himself safe at a distance.

Spoiler: Falco's end lag data

Normals

Move|Hit Frames|Total Frames
Jab 1|2-4|22
Jab 2|10-12|32
Rapid Jab Finisher|5-6|39
Dash Attack|8-17|39
Utilt|5-16|36
Ftilt|6-8|27
Dtilt|7-9|27
Up Smash|8-19|49
Side Smash|17-20|48
Down Smash|7-9|46
Grab|8-9|31
Dash Grab|10-11|39
Pivot Grab|11-12|37

Aerials

Move|Hit Frames|Total Frames|Landing Lag
Nair|3-23|48|15
Uair|10-14|37|15
Fair|12-36|58|32
Bair|4-11|37|15
Dair|16-31|51|26

Default Specials

Move|Startup|Total Frames
Blaster (ground)|11|58
Blaster (aerial)|9|49
Fire Bird|20|19* (Landing Lag)
Falco Phantasm|18|60
Reflector|5|50

Here's the thing, from the Japanese frame data, Fox's Blaster startup is the same as Falco's, 11 on the ground and 9 in the air. Personally, Fox could have had a quicker draw since his Blaster is more for tacking on damage than anything, but whatever. Fox's Blaster shoots consecutively faster, does not stun, etc. His end lag data on the ground is 42 and in the air, it's 40. Thanks to Zelkam, Fox's ground IASA for his Blaster is 33. Luigi's Fireball startup is 17 and the end lag is 40 while Mario's Fireball and Dr. Mario's Pill have the same startup, but 52 frames of end lag. In Brawl, Wolf's Blaster, I believe, has 11 frames of startup and its IASA was 45 and with his air speed, he could weave in and out with Blaster and his Blaster wasn't as spammy (but his Bair was ) as Brawl Falco's. Let's head back to Falco in Smash 4. Falco's Blaster end lag on the ground is 58 and in the air, it's 49. It does 3%, travels about the length of FD, but it takes a second for him to put away his Blaster on the ground and almost a second for him to put away his Blaster when shot in the air. Falco's Blaster startup is faster than Luigi's, but the end lag is atrocious and Luigi can sort of weave in and out with Fireballs to cover his approach and (Dr.) Mario has good air speed to compensate for the end lag. Falco doesn't have good air speed like Wolf or (Dr.) Mario and having the most end lag kills and he does less damage than them with his Blaster.

Auto-canceling made Falco's Blaster good in Melee, maybe too good. In Brawl, auto-canceling, an increased rate of fire that allowed him to short hop double laser, and the lasers fast travel speed made it broken. Without auto-canceling, Falco doesn't have a good projectile, especially with that kind of end lag. It already has a slow rate of fire which in my opinion, could have stayed the same pre-patch 1.0.4 as the problem wasn't how fast it was firing, but the end lag. Reduce the laser's travel distance to Brawl Fox's or about half of FD and even reduce the rate of fire and increase the start-up slightly, but reduce the end lag to about 45-50 frames for the grounded Blaster and 37-40 frames for the aerial Blaster and Falco already has a better projectile without being broken. He doesn't need that massive distance, rate of fire, or even quick draw; what Falco needs is a safe way of protecting himself from afar and a safe way of forcing approaches.

 

[Shaya]

The one thing that's worthwhile with his laser in practice is b-reversing it. It's so unrewarding really but as you can't b-reverse reflector if you're facing backwards looking for a back air follow up and you know it won't happen you can wavebounce/b-reverse a laser and it drops you down a certain height as well and can usually catch someone, I have then landed into intercepting their jump/something with bair or fair but definitely not a super real thing.

 

[Trieste SP]

Huh, that's interesting. I'll look into it.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Similar to Airdodge glitch, Falco can Land with zero frames of landing lag if he uses his fair again after his FH Fair. Could be useful for mixups.