PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Barron]

< ---- me when I get shield grabbed

 

[Nils.]

Apparently you can counter double laser from ledge by CCing the first laser and then dsmashing. Tried it in 20XX. I guess it has to be a pretty low double laser though.

 

[Yort]

Dr Peepee

What do you think of real time 1x speed analysis? Let's say i'm watching a set really quickly because I only have 15 minutes etc.
How beneficial do you think this is?
I believe that as you improve at slower analysis you will be able to understand real time games better, and see things you haven't seen before, is this one of the goals of analysis?

What do you think of in tournament conditioning? With the amount of experience I have now, it takes forever to even understand which of my moves is influencing what etc, maybe a whole hour just to see some nice results and gain understanding.
Is the goal of this to be able to influence people faster and faster with more practice, so that I can somehow influence people over a short tournament set?
Or, is it to be able to further understand the way people respond to my actions and set up general rules and solutions to those responses, and as I become more cognizant of what they choose in response quickly I can adapt faster in tournament?


edit 1: more questions after thinking

One thing I noticed about conditioning I wanted some help with.


If I notice players punishing me for my patterns, such as my friend punishing me for fh wling to side plat in between stocks, and if I am cognizant of my pattern and their adaptation to it, even though it wasn’t intentional conditioning; it’s still conditioning. So here, even though I wasn’t fh wling to side platform in between stocks with the intention of conditioning him to punish him for trying to hit it, as long as I become aware of the effect that has happened then I have succeeded in conditioning.


Basically, conditioning isn’t always intentional but happens naturally and can be exploited if you are aware of what’s happening?


Wouldn’t this imply that becoming more cognizant of my own patterns, and how they can influence opponents in various ways even without intentional meaning, is very important to understanding conditioning?

edit 2:

[Oh yes, that's a good point. I do think a little more when playing to learn, but it's usually something like "let's try this" or "how does X work?" instead of just focus or a little phrase to focus myself on some area of the game. I think you have the right idea thinking more when playing to learn, just don't overwhelm yourself. =p]

Can you tell me more about the specific areas of the game you like to focus on a long with phrases you use?
I remember, in some ama I believe, you talked about how when you get distracted you often focus in on falcos feet to regain focus in a match.

I've been on various "trigger" phrases / words and images etc to remind myself to focus on some area or aspect of the game, so I can regain awareness when I start to feel my mind slipping into useless thought processes.
For example, I often remind myself to focus on the feeling in my hands and awareness of how i'm pressing inputs / my posture, to pay attention and remind myself to play as relaxed as possible while also retaining speed etc.

I was just wondering if you could guide me a bit in this area, I haven't fully fleshed out which phrases / areas of the game etc I want to use to ground myself.



Lastly, somewhat related, what do you think about the notion that you should be primarily completely focused on the opposing character when playing? Should I have my eyes mainly trained on the opponent fox, watching and trying to be completely aware of him, and have the control of myself going on in my peripheral?

Some people have told me it's okay to focus on the space in-between the characters as well. I'm just wondering if you had any opinions on this.

Thanks.

 

[Bones0]

Dr Peepee

What do you think of real time 1x speed analysis? Let's say i'm watching a set really quickly because I only have 15 minutes etc.
How beneficial do you think this is?
I believe that as you improve at slower analysis you will be able to understand real time games better, and see things you haven't seen before, is this one of the goals of analysis?

What do you think of in tournament conditioning? With the amount of experience I have now, it takes forever to even understand which of my moves is influencing what etc, maybe a whole hour just to see some nice results and gain understanding.
Is the goal of this to be able to influence people faster and faster with more practice, so that I can somehow influence people over a short tournament set?
Or, is it to be able to further understand the way people respond to my actions and set up general rules and solutions to those responses, and as I become more cognizant of what they choose in response quickly I can adapt faster in tournament?

I've always reviewed matches at half or quarter speed, but once I finish, I replay the match back at full speed and try to mentally recognize all of the things I wrote down. So if you noticed you do bad approaching lasers when Peach is floating at half speed, then every time you see a laser in full speed, your brain should automatically be categorizing it as a good or bad laser with regards to whether Peach could have floated over it and punished you. If, after reviewing your set, you reread your notes and noticed you missed something, you can rewatch it and try to recall everything again, but this time including the note you left out originally.

As far as influencing/conditioning opponents, I think it's important to consider which opponents are open to being conditioned at all, and to what degree. The vast majority of players have very poor adaptation skills. I abuse the same things over and over, and especially if it's a bo3, they won't realize why they're getting hit quickly enough, let alone have an answer to it. I do, however, sort of keep this separate from more black and white RPS mixups. Plenty of players can keep track of which recovery angles you cover or which tech options you don't. Deeper still, some players have general options laid out for certain "neutral" situations like shielding/taking a laser. They base their decision on specific factors (e.g. proximity, percentage, and stage positioning, but often only based on the one that's most important in that situation) or if the mixup has occurred several times already, they may just play Yomi with you.

I feel like top players will react to your movement, such as a SH forward, but then they're also ready to react to the second layer of that action. A mid-level player may see the SH forward, assume it's an aerial, then try to punish. If you lasered instead of doing an aerial, they lose the interaction and the mixup continues the next time you SH forward. A top player will see the SH forward, position themselves preemptively to deal with whatever option they expect, but if they move backwards to anticipate an aerial and you laser instead, they can more easily switch gears on reaction to the laser and shield it. In order to condition a player like this, SH forward isn't sufficiently deceptive. Instead, it seems like you have to add another layer to your movement. Maybe you WL back instead of choosing between the typical aerial vs. laser mixup, and then once you've WLed back, the opponent was expecting one of the more threatening options (aerial or laser), so now they're forced to anticipate your movement after the WL in order to deal with you properly. You could SH forward again with a potential aerial or laser, you could dash back, you could shield, etc.

I'm not really sure where I was going with that, since that's pretty much where my current understanding has trailed off to. Unfortunately, I don't feel very competent when it comes to conditioning those more experienced players with movement specifically, but maybe PP can confirm or deny the existence of the sort of conditioning layers I'm trying to describe. If this post is intelligible to anyone at all, that is. lol

 

[makehersquirtle]

In the ditto I've really been struggling to deal with opponents double lasering from ledge. What can falco do to counter this?
Some ideas i was thinking about trying were
1. f tilt, leaves them without double jump if it connects, and has realtively low cool down. (seems like prolly the best option).
2. retreating ac bair at ledge, safe, low lag, death if you hit them. (also might be best option).
3. maybe cc shine could work, might depend on their timing for lasers and heights, not sure if this works, but worth trying.
4. full hop or dj above the lasers and bair. This is what I had been doing, but when I think about it I feel like its really bad. While it does completely avoid the lasers, if they know you're going to do this there are so many ways for them to work around it and put you in a bad position. maybe mix this in very infrequently?
5. go to a platform if there is one and drop through bair ( probably good to mix in on stages like yoshis).

Thoughts?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Apparently you can counter double laser from ledge by CCing the first laser and then dsmashing. Tried it in 20XX. I guess it has to be a pretty low double laser though.

Writing this down lol.

Dr Peepee

What do you think of real time 1x speed analysis? Let's say i'm watching a set really quickly because I only have 15 minutes etc.
How beneficial do you think this is?
I believe that as you improve at slower analysis you will be able to understand real time games better, and see things you haven't seen before, is this one of the goals of analysis?

What do you think of in tournament conditioning? With the amount of experience I have now, it takes forever to even understand which of my moves is influencing what etc, maybe a whole hour just to see some nice results and gain understanding.
Is the goal of this to be able to influence people faster and faster with more practice, so that I can somehow influence people over a short tournament set?
Or, is it to be able to further understand the way people respond to my actions and set up general rules and solutions to those responses, and as I become more cognizant of what they choose in response quickly I can adapt faster in tournament?


edit 1: more questions after thinking

One thing I noticed about conditioning I wanted some help with.


If I notice players punishing me for my patterns, such as my friend punishing me for fh wling to side plat in between stocks, and if I am cognizant of my pattern and their adaptation to it, even though it wasn’t intentional conditioning; it’s still conditioning. So here, even though I wasn’t fh wling to side platform in between stocks with the intention of conditioning him to punish him for trying to hit it, as long as I become aware of the effect that has happened then I have succeeded in conditioning.


Basically, conditioning isn’t always intentional but happens naturally and can be exploited if you are aware of what’s happening?


Wouldn’t this imply that becoming more cognizant of my own patterns, and how they can influence opponents in various ways even without intentional meaning, is very important to understanding conditioning?

edit 2:

[Oh yes, that's a good point. I do think a little more when playing to learn, but it's usually something like "let's try this" or "how does X work?" instead of just focus or a little phrase to focus myself on some area of the game. I think you have the right idea thinking more when playing to learn, just don't overwhelm yourself. =p]

Can you tell me more about the specific areas of the game you like to focus on a long with phrases you use?
I remember, in some ama I believe, you talked about how when you get distracted you often focus in on falcos feet to regain focus in a match.

I've been on various "trigger" phrases / words and images etc to remind myself to focus on some area or aspect of the game, so I can regain awareness when I start to feel my mind slipping into useless thought processes.
For example, I often remind myself to focus on the feeling in my hands and awareness of how i'm pressing inputs / my posture, to pay attention and remind myself to play as relaxed as possible while also retaining speed etc.

I was just wondering if you could guide me a bit in this area, I haven't fully fleshed out which phrases / areas of the game etc I want to use to ground myself.



Lastly, somewhat related, what do you think about the notion that you should be primarily completely focused on the opposing character when playing? Should I have my eyes mainly trained on the opponent fox, watching and trying to be completely aware of him, and have the control of myself going on in my peripheral?

Some people have told me it's okay to focus on the space in-between the characters as well. I'm just wondering if you had any opinions on this.

Thanks.

Yeah being able to see in real-time does get better from slower analysis, and eventually can even translate to real-time analysis within matches. You have to watch for the trap where you feel you know a lot though because a new situation or unexpected play can take you out of an immersed state. To your question that follows, I don't think analysis is enough to give way to adaptation. It's something you have to practice daily, visualize even, and for me meditation exercise and explicitly practicing adaptation(remembering how things went between stocks/games) had to all be built up for it to work for me. Use what you think is best, but analysis will definitely help you get there.

To your first edit, yes understanding yourself and your opponent through the game and even psychologically can bring these sorts of things to light. As you become more familiar with your habits you can choose whether to keep them as they are, grow them, or change them. It's a great process.

For your second edit, do you mean when playing to learn or playing in tournament? Your question seems to kind of cover both but I'm not sure what you mean.

Some phrases I use include "lasers"(to remind myself to laser more) "move" (to remind myself to laser less), "up" (to remind myself when lasers have forced the opponent vertically and to transition more/more quickly), and there may be others I'm not aware of. I still try to focus on how opponents respond to lasers(very easy to use these to cue into matches) and their OOS game as well as what they like to do on a platform. But you can build focus into your game by practicing laser 1/2 dashes to observe the opponent and that itself can key you in.

For your last question, I started getting asked this a lot so I paid attention to my eyes. I think when I get hit I look briefly at my own character before looking at the opponent again. Otherwise I alternate between space between characters and my opponent. If done correctly, the space between lets me watch myself and my opponent too I believe.

In the ditto I've really been struggling to deal with opponents double lasering from ledge. What can falco do to counter this?
Some ideas i was thinking about trying were
1. f tilt, leaves them without double jump if it connects, and has realtively low cool down. (seems like prolly the best option).
2. retreating ac bair at ledge, safe, low lag, death if you hit them. (also might be best option).
3. maybe cc shine could work, might depend on their timing for lasers and heights, not sure if this works, but worth trying.
4. full hop or dj above the lasers and bair. This is what I had been doing, but when I think about it I feel like its really bad. While it does completely avoid the lasers, if they know you're going to do this there are so many ways for them to work around it and put you in a bad position. maybe mix this in very infrequently?
5. go to a platform if there is one and drop through bair ( probably good to mix in on stages like yoshis).

Thoughts?

You can attack OOS, CC Dsmash according to Nils above, Ftilt like you said, come over lasers with FH/DJ or use platforms to hit them, PS the first laser then hit them, and you can sometimes effectively jab between lasers too.

 

[SpongeAssassin]

I think it's a bad habit to commit fully to such a long process. SHL, WD forward, and jab are all separate, distinct tools that can be used in coordination with tons of other options. After you shoot the SHL, you should evaluate whether you have a good opportunity to move forward.

If you want to move forward while retaining ground options, WD forward can be decent for that, but Falco's dash is really short so I'd say you should get used to using empty dashes first if you're not entirely sure you want to move in that direction. If you dash forward after a SHL and realize mid dash that the opponent is going to attack, you can dash dance back to retreat. If you WD forward, you're committed for those 15 frames (5 jumpsquat, 10 landing lag), and even if you dash away immediately after this, the momentum from the WD will hold you back more than if you are dash dancing.

Then the last thing is jab. Even if you decide you want to SHL and moving forward seems good, you shouldn't have a commitment to jabbing. Maybe by the time you've done your SHL and WD forward, you notice the opponent is too far away to jab or they ran up and shielded. Jab is very weak in these areas so you'd be much better off with lasering them again as they retreat or shining to initiate shield pressure if they ran up and shielded.

With all this in mind, the option of moving forward with jab is not very reliable. You laser does allow you some leeway when it comes to advancing, but if they're within range of WD jab, there's still a chance they attack after the laser and jab's poor range, active frames, and disjointedness all make it liable to trade or lose outright hitbox vs. hitbox battles. Additionally, jab is weak, making it liable to be CCed or just not leading to anything if it hits. I think I find most use out of it vs. floaties at high percent, especially when they have their backs turned, as this keeps me safe from grab and other quick OoS options, and the reward of hitting with jab is you pop them up and potentially lead into a KO move.

Against Falcon specifically, PP has shown he really likes to favor jab, but more of a shield pressure option at high percents, similar to what I described. The reward for landing a jab to hit Falcon out of the air won't be much if they have good reactions, and you're likely to lose a lot of the interactions in the first place. If you want to stuff Falcon's approaches with a hitbox, I highly recommend turnaround utilt or, if you are prepared in advance, SH AC bair. Utilt is only a few frames slower than jab, but the hitbox is much larger and leads to tons of juicy followups (more utilts, shine combos, or KO moves at high %s).

Thanks for the input and advice, I really appreciate it.

I'm not sure what kinds of moves it's stuffing, but if it's working for you then keep on with it. I like the option somewhat as Falco but against more inclined to hold down against me like Peach/Samus I would definitely not use it.

I didn't consider what characters to specifically not use jab against, thank you PP

 

[SpongeAssassin]

Hey guys, I was thinking about Falco's d-tilt earlier and realized I don't really know when to use it, or what it's advantages/disadvantages even are. What situations do you guys use d-tilt in and why? And how important is spacing it, as well?
(Note: You don't have to list a lot of situations, I'm not gonna make you do that; I'm only looking for a few, and hopefully see what I can figure out on my own from there.)

 

[Bones0]

Hey guys, I was thinking about Falco's d-tilt earlier and realized I don't really know when to use it, or what it's advantages/disadvantages even are. What situations do you guys use d-tilt in and why? And how important is spacing it, as well?
(Note: You don't have to list a lot of situations, I'm not gonna make you do that; I'm only looking for a few, and hopefully see what I can figure out on my own from there.)

I honestly believe turnaround utilt is better than dtilt in most situations where people use dtilt. Dtilt has uses, especially if you are conditioning people to DI in during certain combos, but I think for the most part you will benefit most from getting ridiculously good with turnaround utilt. If you want to KO with it (the one use where utilt is fairly useless), just be sure the opponent's character has limited OoS options in the direction they are facing and/or you space the dtilt as far as possible. Samus in particular seems to struggle with punishing dtilts on her shield because her grab is too slow. It might be decent vs. ICs as well, but I haven't really tested it in practice (I think the risk of WD jab is too real to justify doing such a laggy ground move).

 

[makehersquirtle]

1.Whats the best way to di and escape marths f throw gimps at low percent/ in general?
2. Also how to you di and escape marths b throw gimp set ups?
I generally feel pretty comfortable against marth, but keep getting cheesed and its very frustrating.

Ive had people tell me wall jump air dodge is good, but i have no idea how to apply this or how to do it.

3. I've also been having problems losing my dj when di ing up, any tips on mitigating this?


Responding to sponge assassin. D-tilt can also be good to shield poke since it hits so low. If it can kill, and if their shield is low, it might be worth going for, although you should keep in mind if there shield is low they also likely want to escape with a wd out of shield, roll or jump out of shield. Like bones said, prolly very good against samus, but i also feel its very good against marth since his shield isnt that good, and can easily shield poke. you just have to make sure you don't get grabbed. Also important to note that d smash can be better in some shield poke scenarios, especially by the ledge.

 

[Yort]

Dr Peepee
Do adaptation and conditioning go together?


Example:

If I punish a marth for dash attacking out of the corner too much and he adapts to me punishing this then i’ve conditioned him into using other options to escape, which allows me to use more space effectively such as the space close to him (as you said, I can spend more time within his dash attack range now), as dash attack is no longer a threat? Is this a good thought process?

In a sense one goal of conditioning is to limit their perceived options and gain an even further advantage?


In the same scenario where he’s conditioned to avoid dash attack, if he starts doing fair oos as I get closer and I start punishing his fair oos, would that assert more influence and give me greater advantage simply because of the fear factor?

At this point, he would be afraid of both dash attack and fair oos?

Is the fact that he’s afraid of me knowing his intentions and punishing his most used options in the scenario likely going to make him play a certain way over all? You mentioned how often when you repeatedly punish a move most players are completely discouraged from using it, while some on the other hand start using it much more.


Similarly, you mentioned how when you punish some players defensive habits, they start getting recklessly aggressive as a result and drop the defensive habits entirely.


Assuming this, I should be prepared for a sudden switch in play, and be able to recognize it quickly, correct?


On this note, is one of the goals of conditioning basically to push the opponents off of their normal mode of play, thus making them feel less comfortable as they have to encounter situations in a way they don’t usually? As they probably have less experience fairing oos instead the corner instead of DA, they probably aren’t as good at using fair oos, is this a good thought process?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoob08ssmvs

I’m going to reference some scenarios I payed attention to in the above set when doing analysis today and ask questions about them.

Time = 11.16

When mew2king gets off the ledge with ac nair and you see, you quickly transition further away with two dash dances (one small dash forward larger dash back).

I’m assuming this is to somewhat quickly position yourself out of range from dash attack while also setting up to punish roll?

Time = 11.25

In this scenario, were you trying to condition him not to dash attack by empty moving in the range outside of the dash attack threat range, and then you did the longer dash in to bait a roll or fair oos as mew2king expects you to aggress after a larger dash in., finally wavedashing back to set up to punish at that range?

This is how I understand this with current knowledge. The empty movement to scare m2k off dash attack, the dash forward to try and influence mew2king to think you’re attacking, and then the wavedash to punish attempted bait roll

And then you lost because he waited forever b4 dash attacking which was difficult to predict?

Apologies if writing isn’t clear.


Part 2:


I wanted to break down and discuss a post you made 2/17 that I was thinking about earlier as well. I try relating it to recent analysis stuff.


So in analysis, you can say I keep getting hit for this and this is what I should do. That's fine. But you also want to be thinking about why you couldn't see you were getting hit, what about their character and yours was being exploited and whether that player represents a certain archetype. Archetypes are categories like offensive/defensive/calculated etc. In a given situation different types of players will do different things but it's still possible to categorize them.

1. The part about not being able to see why I was getting hit is involved with conditioning correct? Quick recognition of why I got hit - what led up to make them choose that hit and why it worked on me
   
   
   1. Assuming I can recognize this quickly, I can make adjustments quickly. Once these adjustments are made if they continue to attempt punishes in that same scenario, I have then conditioned them, and can punish them accordingly. Is this a good thought process?
      
2. I’ve been thinking about “archetypes” in terms of how players like to play when at a frame disadvantage or advantage. Such as some players who like to aggress relentlessly when in frame advantage and other players who like to set up constant reaction points while looking for and punishing certain things when they have frame advantage. I like to classify this second player as a reactive player, although in your post I would imagine they would fall under the “calculated” player type. While I would classify a defensive player as one who doesn’t really push the advantage as much as an aggressive player but opts instead to continuously hold themselves in a state of frame advantage by keeping people away etc, IE they fall under the category of “newer players who don’t know how to push advantage” you described in your recent response to me. Do you have any clarifications on these types of archetypes or player models I've been thinking about? I've described 4 rules involved how players regularly deal with frame advantage and disadvantage to kind of clarify to myself which player they are quickly, is this a good idea?
   

1. Anyways, I've been thinking about different players I know and how they respond to having frame advantage versus frame disadvantage. I’ve been trying to categorize them and then generate potential responses for scenarios based on their archetype and how they respond to cues.
   
   
   1. Is this in line with your definition and discussion of archetypes?
      
      
   2. Do you have any advice or recommendations for general archetypes you know of in your study I can try and model around or fit my own observations into?
      
      
   3. Should I start to think up rules on how to condition or bait certain “archetypes” quickly? Like which setups I should use to see certain types of influence, thus allowing faster recognition of the way they deal with certain set ups?
      

 

[Yort]

1.Whats the best way to di and escape marths f throw gimps at low percent/ in general?
2. Also how to you di and escape marths b throw gimp set ups?
I generally feel pretty comfortable against marth, but keep getting cheesed and its very frustrating.

Ive had people tell me wall jump air dodge is good, but i have no idea how to apply this or how to do it.

3. I've also been having problems losing my dj when di ing up, any tips on mitigating this?


Responding to sponge assassin. D-tilt can also be good to shield poke since it hits so low. If it can kill, and if their shield is low, it might be worth going for, although you should keep in mind if there shield is low they also likely want to escape with a wd out of shield, roll or jump out of shield. Like bones said, prolly very good against samus, but i also feel its very good against marth since his shield isnt that good, and can easily shield poke. you just have to make sure you don't get grabbed. Also important to note that d smash can be better in some shield poke scenarios, especially by the ledge.

1. check out 1.45 in this set
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh9zyKIzl5w
mango does di in vs fthrow, takes the dtilt, and double jump sweetspots
as far as I know this is very strong vs fthrow set up as they are in more lag after the dtilt than they would be than just the throw.
consider options such as dj sweetspot, early dj airdodge (to avoid run off fair), early dj dair (to hit them for some ****) or just the basic early double jump back side b / up b
try to avoid the last two of these though, if you play against lower level marths and you are compulsively spamming double jump into recovery options you WILL die

2. marths do dthrow, not bthrow, as it is much more effective and sends you at a worse arch or whatever


oh yeah wall jump air dodge is good but consider it's only a thing on certain stages.

time your double jump better to mitigate this, practice double jump sweetspots.

I suggest doing a lot of analysis of mango and see how he deals with marth throws, he's very good at defense vs marth and has some great recovery mix ups vs him.

For example, he has this thing where he does high double back, high side b into marths double jab, and he sdis the first one and airdodges (i think) or just escapes onto platform, it's pretty sick stuff.

Sorry for non clear writing in a rush, also not an EXPERT on this topic but I know that mang0 and sfat are great at this type of stuff so, and i'm sure other players I don't watch much are too.

ALSO:

the way you di and deal with dthrow gimps and fthrow gimps respectively are different. I don't have much in depth analytical knowledge on what is completely correct, but my intuition has always told me that taking a dthrow is scarier. Also it has told me that you want to generally di away dthrow and di in fthrow > take dtilt> recover (I think sami told me he thinks that's better)

also consider i'm framing the the gimp situations in the context of a falco at <20%
if you are falco getting fthrowed at 80% you don't want to di in generally as you are following for the super common fthrow at ledge into fsmash at 80% mix up :s

Bones0 do you have any clarification / knowledge on di and recovery mix ups vs marth gimps that can help? Also looking for this info.

 

[Bones0]

Biggest aspect to improve on for escaping Marth combos/gimps is to be adept at bouncing off of edges. If you're on a platform, that means holding C-stick down to ASDI into the platform and DIing perpendicular to go at the lowest trajectory possible (left/right for uair; down+in for utilt). By the ledges, the concept is the same, except you'll usually be getting thrown off. Pay attention to how far Marth's throws send you with all the different possible DIs so you always know how to ledge bounce. You want to aim your DI so that you bounce as quickly as possible, but you can't DI too far because if you miss the edge you are usually forced to DJ, which is how most gimps happen.

Assuming you can't bounce, this is my general breakdown for what options are useful:

- DI: your initial DI can determine if you get hit by dtilt or not; I think even if you DI the dtilt well, it's probably never worth DIing in, but I also wouldn't be surprised if SDIing it up put you in a better spot; you can DI up/away as opposed to down/away to get a slightly better trajectory while still avoiding dtilt (or at least making them not go for it because you visually did not DI in)

- Shine stall: by far the biggest tool for recovery; makes it insanely hard (impossible?) for Marth to attack your DJ on reaction; if you don't claw, get comfortable with tap jumping so you can shine stall for as long as is necessary

- Wall jump: surprising amount of invul which can give you a timing mixup for any of your other options without the risk of being hit while delaying; great for setting up Phantasm, shorten, up-B, airdodge, or even an immediate bair to knock them away

- Air dodge: a lot of lag, but you can usually land to retain your jump; low chance of working, but also forces them to respect it by not running off stage; if they slip up or hesitate at all, suddenly a low risk recovery attempt leads to you being back on stage; very useful if you get jabbed out of something and are close enough to make it back on stage

- DJ dair: a sick reversal that is pretty deadly; your DI, %, and how far you're sent off all factor in to how good this is; if you can DJ almost immediately, you have a wider timing window to do it, making it harder for them to counter; most of the stuff they do to respect this gives you a free DJ sweetspot (counter, shield, WD back)

- DJ sweetspot: Marth's dtilt is his main tool for hitting Falco's DJ, but his dtilt isn't uniform; the blade angles downward so you are able to either DJ close to hug the stage if he is close to the ledge, or you can DJ back away from the stage to grab the ledge around the tip; Kadano discovered and confirmed this, but the pics are gone

- DJ back shorten: I rarely use this because I don't think it's that good; dtilt seems to hit max horizontal shorten, but I've had people claim otherwise, so I figured I'd include it in this list for others to try on their own; shorten on its own can be really good after a wall jump or if you're able to DJ back early and are too close to up-B

- Shine turn bair: I don't use this a lot so I need to test it more, but it seems like it's a less deadly but more flexible version of DJ dair

- Up-B: another thing I haven't tried a lot is just immediately up-Bing after being knocked off; you can hold up as you fly off to ensure your jump is stored in case they dtilt you out of your up-B charge; more importantly, I think there are situations where you can DI low and immediately up-B so that unless they ran off immediately as well, you will be able to sweetspot the ledge (or tech if he attacks it)

If you didn't already pick up on it, pretty much everything revolves around timing and spacing, and the two are often intertwined. If you are getting dtilted out of your DJ, you can either time your DJ earlier or later, or you can DJ in a way that makes his dtilt whiff. Often, you will want to use both timing and spacing in a way that makes it as hard as possible for him to cover your option. Additionally, keep in mind that waiting in shine stall should be your default because it gives the opponent a chance to screw up. It's a game of chicken, so if you can get them to blink first and throw out an attack, you can often get back on reaction. They are inclined to attack first because even though you are the one off stage, they are at risk of being DJ daired as well as letting you grab the ledge.

The other important takeaway is that every option can be used in combination with other options. Shine stall in particular can add a timing ambiguity to any option (you could even shine stall super far down, then immediately DJ up-B, which sounds ****ing sick now that I think about it). When a Marth sees you shine stalling, he has no way of knowing when you will DJ out of it, and he also has no way of knowing what option you'll choose. By the time he reacts to you shine stalling you could have already DJed out of your shine and daired him in the face! Unless they're falling for the same trick every time, always be mixing it up so they're forced to keep guessing what timing and spacing you'll recover with.

 

[makehersquirtle]

Awesome stuff bones, very helpful. One clarification, yort was saying it was better to take the d-tilt, but it sounded like you thought di up and away to avoid the d tilt and put yourself in the best position was optimal, just wanted to clarify this, thanks!!

Also what changes do you make between these mix ups off d throw vs f throw?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee
Do adaptation and conditioning go together?


Example:

If I punish a marth for dash attacking out of the corner too much and he adapts to me punishing this then i’ve conditioned him into using other options to escape, which allows me to use more space effectively such as the space close to him (as you said, I can spend more time within his dash attack range now), as dash attack is no longer a threat? Is this a good thought process?

In a sense one goal of conditioning is to limit their perceived options and gain an even further advantage?


In the same scenario where he’s conditioned to avoid dash attack, if he starts doing fair oos as I get closer and I start punishing his fair oos, would that assert more influence and give me greater advantage simply because of the fear factor?

At this point, he would be afraid of both dash attack and fair oos?

Is the fact that he’s afraid of me knowing his intentions and punishing his most used options in the scenario likely going to make him play a certain way over all? You mentioned how often when you repeatedly punish a move most players are completely discouraged from using it, while some on the other hand start using it much more.


Similarly, you mentioned how when you punish some players defensive habits, they start getting recklessly aggressive as a result and drop the defensive habits entirely.


Assuming this, I should be prepared for a sudden switch in play, and be able to recognize it quickly, correct?


On this note, is one of the goals of conditioning basically to push the opponents off of their normal mode of play, thus making them feel less comfortable as they have to encounter situations in a way they don’t usually? As they probably have less experience fairing oos instead the corner instead of DA, they probably aren’t as good at using fair oos, is this a good thought process?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoob08ssmvs

I’m going to reference some scenarios I payed attention to in the above set when doing analysis today and ask questions about them.

Time = 11.16

When mew2king gets off the ledge with ac nair and you see, you quickly transition further away with two dash dances (one small dash forward larger dash back).

I’m assuming this is to somewhat quickly position yourself out of range from dash attack while also setting up to punish roll?

Time = 11.25

In this scenario, were you trying to condition him not to dash attack by empty moving in the range outside of the dash attack threat range, and then you did the longer dash in to bait a roll or fair oos as mew2king expects you to aggress after a larger dash in., finally wavedashing back to set up to punish at that range?

This is how I understand this with current knowledge. The empty movement to scare m2k off dash attack, the dash forward to try and influence mew2king to think you’re attacking, and then the wavedash to punish attempted bait roll

And then you lost because he waited forever b4 dash attacking which was difficult to predict?

Apologies if writing isn’t clear.


Part 2:


I wanted to break down and discuss a post you made 2/17 that I was thinking about earlier as well. I try relating it to recent analysis stuff.


So in analysis, you can say I keep getting hit for this and this is what I should do. That's fine. But you also want to be thinking about why you couldn't see you were getting hit, what about their character and yours was being exploited and whether that player represents a certain archetype. Archetypes are categories like offensive/defensive/calculated etc. In a given situation different types of players will do different things but it's still possible to categorize them.

1. The part about not being able to see why I was getting hit is involved with conditioning correct? Quick recognition of why I got hit - what led up to make them choose that hit and why it worked on me
   
   1. Assuming I can recognize this quickly, I can make adjustments quickly. Once these adjustments are made if they continue to attempt punishes in that same scenario, I have then conditioned them, and can punish them accordingly. Is this a good thought process?
2. I’ve been thinking about “archetypes” in terms of how players like to play when at a frame disadvantage or advantage. Such as some players who like to aggress relentlessly when in frame advantage and other players who like to set up constant reaction points while looking for and punishing certain things when they have frame advantage. I like to classify this second player as a reactive player, although in your post I would imagine they would fall under the “calculated” player type. While I would classify a defensive player as one who doesn’t really push the advantage as much as an aggressive player but opts instead to continuously hold themselves in a state of frame advantage by keeping people away etc, IE they fall under the category of “newer players who don’t know how to push advantage” you described in your recent response to me. Do you have any clarifications on these types of archetypes or player models I've been thinking about? I've described 4 rules involved how players regularly deal with frame advantage and disadvantage to kind of clarify to myself which player they are quickly, is this a good idea?

1. Anyways, I've been thinking about different players I know and how they respond to having frame advantage versus frame disadvantage. I’ve been trying to categorize them and then generate potential responses for scenarios based on their archetype and how they respond to cues.
   
   1. Is this in line with your definition and discussion of archetypes?
      
      
   2. Do you have any advice or recommendations for general archetypes you know of in your study I can try and model around or fit my own observations into?
      
      
   3. Should I start to think up rules on how to condition or bait certain “archetypes” quickly? Like which setups I should use to see certain types of influence, thus allowing faster recognition of the way they deal with certain set ups?

Yeah you can't really condition without forcing a change. Said simply, you are influencing your opponent with stimuli. When they see stimuli and adjust, consciously or not, you have influenced them. The name won't matter so much as long as you have the idea.

Limiting their options is definitely really strong and a goal for sure. It's how we use lasers to minimize our speed and range disadvantage as Falco for example.

Reading several of your next lines, it seems I should explain something else. Some players have situational depth where they've plotted out the options to a great extent. Some players can go deep into a bag of tricks in this case. Others may have looked into it but have a mental block if you take away their best options. Others may just try to avoid the situation. At any rate, if you discourage the options pretty quickly you break the opponents' confidence and this is a powerful moment to really enforce your control over them. This is especially true when you punish their "certain" counters or approaches they feel will hit. This is where a lot of the psychology and in-game aspects join together, which is why I had to explain this in a kind of convoluted way. Hope that helped some.

11:16- Yeah I moved in a little to fake but wanted to keep moving back to react to DA and cover roll if need be. Basically I need space to set up laser and dodge attacks and keep Marth cornered before I can choke him out again effectively.

11:25- This is more or less correct. I'll admit I did not move with as much purpose as I'd like, as there's really no excuse to not laser there unless I wanted to bait that exact dash attack and then it should be a pretty easy reaction from that distance plus M2K always doing the same thing lol.



1. Conditioning is involved yes, but sometimes it's something more like understanding a position in terms of available options and interaction between options more deeply(which is certainly part of conditioning as mentioned above). It's probably fine to think of it this way but I don't want to oversimplify.

2. You might need to give me examples of what you mean by this second type of player you call reactive. I tend to think of reactive as an opposite to proactive, and a reactive player would often be one that is more about letting the opponent act first while a proactive one does the opposite. Often these types will be associated with offense or defense, but a reactive player could catch an opponent on their startup and a proactive player could just push forward to observe a reaction then wait. It can be messier than it seems. Defensive players are ones who prefer to let the opponent come to them in my definition. They may be proactive as I've said or reactive but by nature defense is to make things complicated for the opponent to figure out and get through. It is not for novices only because we see defensive play at the top often, but even if we didn't it would still exist.

3. I would recommend looking into classifying as much as you can. It's so intuitive for me at this point I'm not sure I'd be able to easily give you the information you're looking for, though your questions help me bring those ideas out from my subconsciousness which is good. Even so, slotting opponents into as many useful categories as you can is always beneficial and helps you stay more adaptive in any match and against any adaption a more familiar opponent may try in the meantime.

 

[Bones0]

Awesome stuff bones, very helpful. One clarification, yort was saying it was better to take the d-tilt, but it sounded like you thought di up and away to avoid the d tilt and put yourself in the best position was optimal, just wanted to clarify this, thanks!!

Also what changes do you make between these mix ups off d throw vs f throw?

It's pretty ambiguous because of how many factors are at play. I personally think there's too much risk in DIing in for what is probably a very negligible difference in where you end up. They might fsmash or delay their dtilt so you tap jump into their attack and die. They might sourspot the dtilt if you DI too far in and get a second dtilt right after (again, potentially stealing your jump). Mainly, it doesn't seem that helpful to take the dtilt and go slightly higher because you're still going to be low enough that he can jab you, so you still have to outplay him with superior timing and/or spacing if you plan on making it back.

 

[StrayDog]

I hate it when people don't respond to your conditioning and keep using options that you have been playing around, such as overusing fsmash or dair with marth or coming down with nair with Samus and Luigi. I have recently come to realize that this mentality is actually ****ty because it makes me feel frustrated while winning and makes me play in intentionally cheeky ways in order to try to make the fact that I am consistently responding to their overused option more blatant, and this takes me out of the zone. I don't really have a question regarding this. I see this mentality a lot around my level of play, especially amongst people who feel that I'm overusing laser or playing too defensively, and even if they're winning they will whine. I have become aware that it's something I need to fix and figured that I'd bring it up in case there are others who have the same issue but aren't aware of it.

 

[Yort]

It's snowing in GA which almost never happens and today feels magical

Dr Peepee

I'm back with more questions on the same topics I've been interested in along with stuff you've said in the past if that's okay.

part 1

Can you define set up, action, and tool for me in your terms?
I'm assuming that an action for you, based on previous writings, is a single option. An example being short hop forward, or wavedash, or short hop laser, etc. Moving on, i'd assume that a setup is a combination of these actions. Such as short hop laser in place, dash back, into approaching laser.
What's the difference, in your terms, between a setup and a tool? You seem to use the terms interchangeably sometimes so I'm just a bit confused if they're the same thing or not and if you have set terms for different things.

Also, in my journey to understand more about patterns, conditioning, and generally just to learn neutral game, I decided to move backwards and approach your recommendation of thoroughly learning the purpose of tools and how people respond to them. Then, when i'm done with that, i'll make setups which are basically just combinations of tools. Then I will test them and see how people react at different ranges, and make observations that way. I will also attempt to shadowbox / visualize their uses in my own time.
Does this all sound like a good order to approach this problem? I felt like directly trying to hit conditioning was a bit rough, I felt like I needed to move backwards and understand why people adapt, where people react in neutral, etc. I also just want to actually understand how I play, I feel like I have no idea why I make the decisions I make in neutral and it is beyond frustrating honestly.

Next, in your last response, I found that what you define as reactive vs proactive I define as patient vs impatient. I often used to disagree with some peoples notion that patient = defensive or impatient = aggressive, I felt like there were impatient defensive players and patient aggressive players. I think that reactive vs / pro active is more suiting and kind of hitting my thought process well so i'm glad about that. I'm not sure where to move next in terms of archetypes, but i'll approach that problem later.
Do you think patient = reactive?
If this is the case, why do you think falcos need to play more patient versus marth and shiek, or do we have different definitions of patience?

I want to ask about an example of a set up to see if i'm on the right track with this.
Laser -> Dash back -> Approaching laser
1. Laser > set up manipulation / get up frame advantage
2. dash back > Gives you time to get if the laser hits them and in what way (are they off balance? in your terms), also to avoid instant attacks such as shiek ftilt after the laser. Dash back might also give them incentive to run away to reset neutral? But that's wouldn't really make much sense considering my dash back is supposed to signify to them i'm running away, if they thought I would run away they would take space right?

But I also thought that after laser stun people are pretty much unable to react to your start up and have to choose before seeing what you do, so i'm not really certain about how and where my action after my laser can influence them. I feel like with lasers past situations are probably more important than direct ques.

3. Approaching laser > Now that you have frame advantage from them acting after laser and you know that for sure which you register during dash back, you can approaching laser to gain a larger advantage if they do dash back, or hold shield. This might lose to them running at you with a move or just throwing out a move instantly.

Am I on the right track with this set up? Here are some examples I want to reference that helped me get this information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObuJqL1_vW4
6 seconds in, start of game
you do walk drop down laser, dash back, approaching laser
During your dash back did you observe the fact that you hit him out of his jump and know he was off balance? Is this possible?
If so then you would probably know that the approaching laser here afterwards is basically guaranteed to be effective.

29 seconds in
you do laser in place oos, dash back, approaching laser
he inputs dash back after he's forced to land, same as last one.
Again, do you think you knew you hit him out of the air and knew this was going to succeed? Would you have chosen a different option if the scenario was different? Is this awareness?

When you do the laser in place and then dash back, are you spending the time during the dash back watching and then making your decision based off that? Or is your decision somewhat pre emptive based on the fact that you know what they will do?
Can players see and react to your dash back while they're in laser stun and choose based on that? Do people do that?

I'm just not really clear on what people can and cannot react to, especially regarding lasers and laser manipulations. Very unclear on a lot of this and it frustrates me.

1 minute 15 seconds in
Here, you lasered his aerial onto stage and did dash back, i'm assuming that during the dash back you registered the fact that he jumped and knew your laser hit so you dashed forward, and then you see shield and have the ability to grab him but i'm assuming you didn't grab because you read roll and dashed back again to bait it. I'm assuming the dash forward wavedash are also an attempt to bait roll / shield grab, and the way you pressured here was probably very stressful to ken considering how close you were to his shield.

Why weren't you scared of aerial oos here?
Do you think this situation is another example of too much movement and not enough purpose? Do you think you should have lasered or done something else?

1 minutes 46 seconds in
Do you think this dash dance was excesive?
What I think happened is you did laser, dash forward, dash back, and during your dash back registered the fact that he was crouching, and knowing that with ken this probably means he's looking for a counter, you dash danced 3 more times trying to bait him, and the you punished. (By the way, for me, dash dance means two dashes)
If this is the case I don't think this dash dance was really excessive.
I also meant to ask you before when you were talking about excessive dash dancing, and how you shouldn't do more than 4 before choosing an action, what would you define as an action in this type of scenario? Would wavedash be an action? Considering that it's movement similiar to dash dance.

part 2

11:25- This is more or less correct. I'll admit I did not move with as much purpose as I'd like, as there's really no excuse to not laser there unless I wanted to bait that exact dash attack and then it should be a pretty easy reaction from that distance plus M2K always doing the same thing lol.

Can you tell me where in this sequence you should have lasered again?
Assuming he's already in the corner in a bad position, wouldn’t lasering to reset not be necessary?
Sami told me a while ago that a part of the reason you and him don't excessively laser sometimes, even though he frequently talks about the benefits of lasering heavily, is because you guys already know when you have advantage and lasering isn't necessary at that point.
Assuming marth is already disadvantaged by holding shield in the far corner, and you are at a good range to react to multiple options, why would laser again here be good?

part 3

These questions are probably kind of obvious but I just want some guidance.

I don't really understand exactly how lasers allow you to manipulate your opponent. I know they give you frame advantage, and you once said "they force your opponents to deal with you."
How exactly does this work? Is it because now they're stuck for a few frames and I can set up an attack / reset etc?
It still feels like a set rps situation.

I think my struggle here is how I strugle to understand which of my options / their options are chosen on reaction. I feel like it's just a set in stone rps situation based on spacing / the previous situation / player types etc. I just don't really fully get it. I feel like if I got why exactly they allow so much manipulation it would help a lot.

Thanks for the help, also let me know if my walls of texts are overwhelming, I want to keep asking neutral game questions like this regularly because i'm taking this endevour seriously now that I can play melee again, but I don't want to bog you down.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's snowing in GA which almost never happens and today feels magical

Dr Peepee

I'm back with more questions on the same topics I've been interested in along with stuff you've said in the past if that's okay.

part 1

Can you define set up, action, and tool for me in your terms?
I'm assuming that an action for you, based on previous writings, is a single option. An example being short hop forward, or wavedash, or short hop laser, etc. Moving on, i'd assume that a setup is a combination of these actions. Such as short hop laser in place, dash back, into approaching laser.
What's the difference, in your terms, between a setup and a tool? You seem to use the terms interchangeably sometimes so I'm just a bit confused if they're the same thing or not and if you have set terms for different things.

Also, in my journey to understand more about patterns, conditioning, and generally just to learn neutral game, I decided to move backwards and approach your recommendation of thoroughly learning the purpose of tools and how people respond to them. Then, when i'm done with that, i'll make setups which are basically just combinations of tools. Then I will test them and see how people react at different ranges, and make observations that way. I will also attempt to shadowbox / visualize their uses in my own time.
Does this all sound like a good order to approach this problem? I felt like directly trying to hit conditioning was a bit rough, I felt like I needed to move backwards and understand why people adapt, where people react in neutral, etc. I also just want to actually understand how I play, I feel like I have no idea why I make the decisions I make in neutral and it is beyond frustrating honestly.

Next, in your last response, I found that what you define as reactive vs proactive I define as patient vs impatient. I often used to disagree with some peoples notion that patient = defensive or impatient = aggressive, I felt like there were impatient defensive players and patient aggressive players. I think that reactive vs / pro active is more suiting and kind of hitting my thought process well so i'm glad about that. I'm not sure where to move next in terms of archetypes, but i'll approach that problem later.
Do you think patient = reactive?
If this is the case, why do you think falcos need to play more patient versus marth and shiek, or do we have different definitions of patience?

I want to ask about an example of a set up to see if i'm on the right track with this.
Laser -> Dash back -> Approaching laser
1. Laser > set up manipulation / get up frame advantage
2. dash back > Gives you time to get if the laser hits them and in what way (are they off balance? in your terms), also to avoid instant attacks such as shiek ftilt after the laser. Dash back might also give them incentive to run away to reset neutral? But that's wouldn't really make much sense considering my dash back is supposed to signify to them i'm running away, if they thought I would run away they would take space right?

But I also thought that after laser stun people are pretty much unable to react to your start up and have to choose before seeing what you do, so i'm not really certain about how and where my action after my laser can influence them. I feel like with lasers past situations are probably more important than direct ques.

3. Approaching laser > Now that you have frame advantage from them acting after laser and you know that for sure which you register during dash back, you can approaching laser to gain a larger advantage if they do dash back, or hold shield. This might lose to them running at you with a move or just throwing out a move instantly.

Am I on the right track with this set up? Here are some examples I want to reference that helped me get this information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObuJqL1_vW4
6 seconds in, start of game
you do walk drop down laser, dash back, approaching laser
During your dash back did you observe the fact that you hit him out of his jump and know he was off balance? Is this possible?
If so then you would probably know that the approaching laser here afterwards is basically guaranteed to be effective.

29 seconds in
you do laser in place oos, dash back, approaching laser
he inputs dash back after he's forced to land, same as last one.
Again, do you think you knew you hit him out of the air and knew this was going to succeed? Would you have chosen a different option if the scenario was different? Is this awareness?

When you do the laser in place and then dash back, are you spending the time during the dash back watching and then making your decision based off that? Or is your decision somewhat pre emptive based on the fact that you know what they will do?
Can players see and react to your dash back while they're in laser stun and choose based on that? Do people do that?

I'm just not really clear on what people can and cannot react to, especially regarding lasers and laser manipulations. Very unclear on a lot of this and it frustrates me.

1 minute 15 seconds in
Here, you lasered his aerial onto stage and did dash back, i'm assuming that during the dash back you registered the fact that he jumped and knew your laser hit so you dashed forward, and then you see shield and have the ability to grab him but i'm assuming you didn't grab because you read roll and dashed back again to bait it. I'm assuming the dash forward wavedash are also an attempt to bait roll / shield grab, and the way you pressured here was probably very stressful to ken considering how close you were to his shield.

Why weren't you scared of aerial oos here?
Do you think this situation is another example of too much movement and not enough purpose? Do you think you should have lasered or done something else?

1 minutes 46 seconds in
Do you think this dash dance was excesive?
What I think happened is you did laser, dash forward, dash back, and during your dash back registered the fact that he was crouching, and knowing that with ken this probably means he's looking for a counter, you dash danced 3 more times trying to bait him, and the you punished. (By the way, for me, dash dance means two dashes)
If this is the case I don't think this dash dance was really excessive.
I also meant to ask you before when you were talking about excessive dash dancing, and how you shouldn't do more than 4 before choosing an action, what would you define as an action in this type of scenario? Would wavedash be an action? Considering that it's movement similiar to dash dance.

part 2

11:25- This is more or less correct. I'll admit I did not move with as much purpose as I'd like, as there's really no excuse to not laser there unless I wanted to bait that exact dash attack and then it should be a pretty easy reaction from that distance plus M2K always doing the same thing lol.

Can you tell me where in this sequence you should have lasered again?
Assuming he's already in the corner in a bad position, wouldn’t lasering to reset not be necessary?
Sami told me a while ago that a part of the reason you and him don't excessively laser sometimes, even though he frequently talks about the benefits of lasering heavily, is because you guys already know when you have advantage and lasering isn't necessary at that point.
Assuming marth is already disadvantaged by holding shield in the far corner, and you are at a good range to react to multiple options, why would laser again here be good?

part 3

These questions are probably kind of obvious but I just want some guidance.

I don't really understand exactly how lasers allow you to manipulate your opponent. I know they give you frame advantage, and you once said "they force your opponents to deal with you."
How exactly does this work? Is it because now they're stuck for a few frames and I can set up an attack / reset etc?
It still feels like a set rps situation.

I think my struggle here is how I strugle to understand which of my options / their options are chosen on reaction. I feel like it's just a set in stone rps situation based on spacing / the previous situation / player types etc. I just don't really fully get it. I feel like if I got why exactly they allow so much manipulation it would help a lot.

Thanks for the help, also let me know if my walls of texts are overwhelming, I want to keep asking neutral game questions like this regularly because i'm taking this endevour seriously now that I can play melee again, but I don't want to bog you down.

Part 1:

Oh, I hope I didn't use some of that interchangeably lol. I can see why it'd be confusing if so. Let me explain then

Tool- option. This can be a dash, an attack, or even something that's bunched together a little like a dash SH(which admittedly can be confusing since I never made extra terms for this). Action should be a synonym of this word unless I'm forgetting something.

Setup- a combination of tools/actions. The power of the setup comes from knowledge of individual tools as well as their combination together. A setup's power comes from building decision points into it and practicing it/its variations/understanding its effects on the opponent.

Yes! Please take a step back to break the game down. I did the same and have encouraged others to do the same and all who have really done it say it's quite liberating so good luck with it.

I think patient is often reactive but not necessarily true always. For example, a Falco player could be lasering forward often but not committing to any major approaches for longer than most people. However once he's playing at his own tempo he will prefer to be the one to take things a step farther and make the initiations which is far more proactive(he may shoot an extra laser or two than less patient Falcos would in similar positions for instance). This is proactive and patient but it just means they take longer to get going. You could do this with defense too.

Really really simply, laser stuns the opponent and forces them to consider your dash aerial in approach. If you dash back, you get to observe what they did and adjust and also extend the space between the two of you. This extension may make them want to come forward as they observe you moved away or they may just resume trying to fight now that pressure is relieved. That's when you come in if you observed/conditioned correctly or just want to bank on this if it's earlier in a set.

First interaction: More or less yeah, and I also wanted to see how he'd react if I did go in.

Second: Yes I did confirm I hit him out of the air. If you'll notice, I actually dashed in first after this laser because I wanted to pressure him if he stayed grounded but then I dashed back to set up a punish/reaction and spacing for the laser as I see he's in the air. From there he can't do much after landing so the laser grab confirm was pretty free.
Currently, I do not know of anyone reacting during laser stun, including myself. But I think it's possible-ish and it's something I plan on spending a lot of time practicing.

Third: I didn't grab since I wasn't close enough and could've gotten grabbed first. Otherwise you're pretty much right. I could have lasered a little more here but because I was a bit closer than the M2K example AND I had just put Ken off balance/comboed him it's safer to move without lasers if you move with purpose.

Fourth: I don't remember the conditioning here tbh, but it's pretty fair to say it was likely excessive movement. I will say the one longer dash I did earlier on in my DD helped my conditioning out and made it much more likely he wouldn't raw attack me so it wasn't useless. DD'ing a lot isn't as purposeful individually as slower dashing but it can have a general purpose if that makes sense and that may have been the case here.
I often say you shouldn't do more than 2 dashes before choosing an action but as you can see it's more complicated in reality =p
WD definitely counts as an action. I would say by action 3 you need to have made a major decision in a given sequence, even if that decision is just to wait/reset.


Part 2:

After looking at each dash and M2K, I'm pretty sure any laser at any part of the DD would have been acceptable. As I pulled back I needed to do one right after the dash back due to him wanting to come forward which I mentioned before. Part of why you could argue I should wait some is lasering M2K just puts him back on the edge and so maybe I could have played on him waiting for laser by encroaching on his space more and threatening Nair/Dair/Bair instead.

In this example Marth did not shield, but if he did then lasering would serve to help you get closer to him to force him to Fair OOS or to pressure him. You basically don't want him rolling through you easily or outranging you so laser can help to give you control and also force them to take action like Fair OOS while you get a more free reaction. That said, you're fair in suggesting you don't need to laser there. That can be a pretty situational and conditioning-dependent call so if you didn't want to laser there that would be fine. My main reasoning for saying I should is perhaps more M2K-specific and to mitigate getting grabbed by the edge as much as possible.


Part 3:

Ah okay so let's just talk about the importance of projectiles and see if that helps. So the purpose of projectiles is to control space around you and allow your opponent to only enter in certain areas/times according to those rules. So basically laser controls horizontal space in front of you and until you start it up again you could be vulnerable but right after it's out you get time to move first. So if an opponent wanted to attack from the front they'd need to wait out that initial advantage period and strike during the more laggy period. Unless they wanted to go high but we can ignore that for the moment. Now, Falcos often abuse this laser advantage period by approaching with Nair/Dair and this extends his overall threatening range since laser can extend pretty far and let Falco run some with some advantage before anyone could punish him. This is pretty effective, and so the meta has obviously conditioned people by this point to react when a laser comes out and Falco could do this, especially if the Falco can land the moves well on shield. This is why laser slight wait attacks and laser dash back run in attacks can be so strong because it abuses this frame advantage and resulting conditioning(jumps/rolls/their own slight waits before countering your probable approaches).

I don't think I nailed that explanation but I did an okay job. Let me know if it helps.

And yeah I'll admit this is pretty difficult for me some days but if I get overwhelmed I'll just take a while to answer lol. You have plenty to work with at this point and I think this will help everyone so I'm not too concerned =)

 

[Yort]

I am here with questions about set ups
Dr Peepee

One -
Laser > slight dash forward > dash back > approaching laser

Is this whole 4 piece combination a set up?

What's the point in the dash forward? Is it a decision point so that you then have the option to immediately aerial or dash back and observe?

What does this small dash forward do to differ it from laser > dash back > dash forward laser? I know you talked about this, I just don’t fully understand. I don’t see how this dash forward could influence them, as I don’t see how they could react to it, so I don’t see how that could make it good.

Two -
"A setup's power comes from building decision points into it and practicing it/its variations/understanding its effects on the opponent."

On that note, what exactly is a decision point?

Are decision points just a part in the set up where you would make a decision, either after a reaction and or a read? IE a part in the set up where you would choose to either go into one variation of the setup or another, based on what you see of them?

So the set up itself is a base combination of moves, such as laser > slight dash forward > dash back

And then what move you choose after the decision point is the variation?
I think it's very possible I may be over-complicating this.


Three -
"Yes I did confirm I hit him out of the air. If you'll notice, I actually dashed in first after this laser because I wanted to pressure him if he stayed grounded but then I dashed back to set up a punish/reaction and spacing for the laser as I see he's in the air. From there he can't do much after landing so the laser grab confirm was pretty free."

How exactly does dashing in pressure him if he stayed grounded? Are you implying you could react to the laser hitting him when he’s on the ground?

So if an opponent wanted to attack from the front they'd need to wait out that initial advantage period and strike during the more laggy period.


Once you stated that falco’s winning position vs marth is close with a laser out and marth’s winning position vs falco is close with no laser out, why exactly is this?

Aren’t there also many cases where marth is at a disadvantage when you are close with no laser out, maybe you conditioned him to stop dash attacking, maybe he’s holding shield in the corner, where you can dash dance close with no laser out and still manipulate him etc?

also, I don't fully understand what you mean when you say having a laser out, does that literally mean the laser is traveling in the air? Or does it also include the time that marth is in lag from laser hitting for example? Laser travels very fast so I guess I just don't understand how you could always have a laser out, I was messing around with how much time I had to move while laser was traveling which was very interesting and learned some more about it which was nice, but I still don't fully understand what you mean when you say by having a laser out.

I also don't think I understand exactly what you meant by winning position.

Four -
Anyways, I noticed you used very large amounts of laser > slight dash forward > dash back

And also laser > dash back

If I were to add approaching laser to this set up would it make it another set up or just a variation of the original (repeat of first question)? I think i’m probably making this generation of set ups too complicated though.

I was hoping maybe you could explain in further depth the nature of these two set ups in specific.
You used them frequently vs ken when at a standard threat range distance, and after the dash back usually worked your way into more dashes or approaching laser / aerial I believe. I was hoping you could explain it further to help me kind of understand how this set up in specific works, and then I can get ideas to expand upon for other set ups.
basically: can you explain the whole laser dash forward dash back set up to me more in depth? I think that might be helpful

I do have a lot to work with! I'm trying to stay on task, but I still keep generating more questions that I think I would appreciate guidance with. Also your explanation of lasers was very good, it helped me understand some of the problems I have with lasers conceptually.

 

[StrayDog]

what do I do when falcon is above me? I keep fighting falcons that just full hop and double jump constantly and get directly above me and just come down with stomp, knee, bair or falling up air. dash dancing doesn't seem to work because falco's dash is too short and stomp is ten feet wide or I just get clipped by bair, those aerials all seem to cause obscene shield stun and not even shine oos seems to work. up tilt either trades unfavorably with stomp or just gets beaten by it outright most of the time it seems. I keep thinking I should commit to full hop nair or dair since those moves all have a ton of startup, but then sometimes I just end up whiffing and then being above falcon which is also terrible.

 

[Bones0]

I am here with questions about set ups
Dr Peepee

One -
Laser > slight dash forward > dash back > approaching laser

Is this whole 4 piece combination a set up?

What's the point in the dash forward? Is it a decision point so that you then have the option to immediately aerial or dash back and observe?

What does this small dash forward do to differ it from laser > dash back > dash forward laser? I know you talked about this, I just don’t fully understand. I don’t see how this dash forward could influence them, as I don’t see how they could react to it, so I don’t see how that could make it good.

Two -
"A setup's power comes from building decision points into it and practicing it/its variations/understanding its effects on the opponent."

On that note, what exactly is a decision point?

Are decision points just a part in the set up where you would make a decision, either after a reaction and or a read? IE a part in the set up where you would choose to either go into one variation of the setup or another, based on what you see of them?

So the set up itself is a base combination of moves, such as laser > slight dash forward > dash back

And then what move you choose after the decision point is the variation?
I think it's very possible I may be over-complicating this.


Three -
"Yes I did confirm I hit him out of the air. If you'll notice, I actually dashed in first after this laser because I wanted to pressure him if he stayed grounded but then I dashed back to set up a punish/reaction and spacing for the laser as I see he's in the air. From there he can't do much after landing so the laser grab confirm was pretty free."

How exactly does dashing in pressure him if he stayed grounded? Are you implying you could react to the laser hitting him when he’s on the ground?

So if an opponent wanted to attack from the front they'd need to wait out that initial advantage period and strike during the more laggy period.


Once you stated that falco’s winning position vs marth is close with a laser out and marth’s winning position vs falco is close with no laser out, why exactly is this?

Aren’t there also many cases where marth is at a disadvantage when you are close with no laser out, maybe you conditioned him to stop dash attacking, maybe he’s holding shield in the corner, where you can dash dance close with no laser out and still manipulate him etc?

also, I don't fully understand what you mean when you say having a laser out, does that literally mean the laser is traveling in the air? Or does it also include the time that marth is in lag from laser hitting for example? Laser travels very fast so I guess I just don't understand how you could always have a laser out, I was messing around with how much time I had to move while laser was traveling which was very interesting and learned some more about it which was nice, but I still don't fully understand what you mean when you say by having a laser out.

I also don't think I understand exactly what you meant by winning position.

Four -
Anyways, I noticed you used very large amounts of laser > slight dash forward > dash back

And also laser > dash back

If I were to add approaching laser to this set up would it make it another set up or just a variation of the original (repeat of first question)? I think i’m probably making this generation of set ups too complicated though.

I was hoping maybe you could explain in further depth the nature of these two set ups in specific.
You used them frequently vs ken when at a standard threat range distance, and after the dash back usually worked your way into more dashes or approaching laser / aerial I believe. I was hoping you could explain it further to help me kind of understand how this set up in specific works, and then I can get ideas to expand upon for other set ups.
basically: can you explain the whole laser dash forward dash back set up to me more in depth? I think that might be helpful

I do have a lot to work with! I'm trying to stay on task, but I still keep generating more questions that I think I would appreciate guidance with. Also your explanation of lasers was very good, it helped me understand some of the problems I have with lasers conceptually.

I'm not PP (obv), but these are my initial impressions:

1. No. The point of the dash forward is to threaten forward movement, the dash back is to avoid counter attacks, and the approaching laser is done if, during that time, you realize they retreated instead of threw out an attack to stuff your approach. This is really common vs. Marth who relies heavily on zoning with fair and whiff punishing approaches with dash back.

2. A decision point is a point at which you make a decision. While they can be flexible, you will generally have a set decision point during a certain sequence because it will be necessary to keep you safe from a large slew of options. Using the above sequence, the decision point would be after the dash back. You can certainly wait after the dash back instead of reacting to their current location/action, but the longer you wait, the more exposed you are to them moving forward after the first laser. Just due to the threat of the laser, dash forward, you tend to know what they are doing by the time you dash back, so that's when you should decide what branch of your flowchart to continue down.

Each branch of a flow chart/decision tree are the variations he is talking about. The most basic example is, after you dash back, react to their movement. If you see them move back, approaching laser. If you see them move forward, attack/retreat more. If you see them stand still but still ready to act, laser again. If they seem like they got stuck in their movement or are trapped in shield, approach to initiate a punish/pressure. Obviously this is not a set rule by any means. Your flowchart will vary by character, percent, positioning, and especially player specific. If a Marth never seems willing to dash attack after being lasered, you have no need to respect that option.

While I think knowing the mixups and flowcharts for a given situation is really useful, recently I think I've relied too much on flowcharts/strict strategies. Trying to force every interaction into a specific situation can make you less flexible and you won't necessarily make the best decisions because you are blind to all of the options except the ones you've labbed. I think the best course is to lab as many strong options as you can then trust your intuition to use them during gameplay.

3. Not sure about the specific situation, but generally being close to Marth without a laser is unsafe because you are too slow to hit him. He has no reason to shield when he can DD around all of your approaches, and even if he does shield, with no laser to put him in stun, he is free to counter your approaches with WD back. This would be fine if you could at least laser like you sort of can vs. Sheik (her DA and run up grab just aren't as good as Marth's), but being within tipper range means you don't have enough time to start lasering without incurring serious risks. He can dtilt, DA, fsmash, ftilt, grab, and fair all before you get a laser out if you didn't already have one protecting you.

4. Similar to what I already said, I don't think you should think of the approaching laser as part of an extensive set up. You should be dashing forward or backward after lasers to position yourself relative to where the opponent is, what you expect him to do, and what you want to do to him. I think it's fine to have defaults for when you can't react, like laser dash back when you have center stage, but ultimately you want the direction you dash to be based on the situation, and if the situation calls for it, you can approaching laser after you dash a certain way.

what do I do when falcon is above me? I keep fighting falcons that just full hop and double jump constantly and get directly above me and just come down with stomp, knee, bair or falling up air. dash dancing doesn't seem to work because falco's dash is too short and stomp is ten feet wide or I just get clipped by bair, those aerials all seem to cause obscene shield stun and not even shine oos seems to work. up tilt either trades unfavorably with stomp or just gets beaten by it outright most of the time it seems. I keep thinking I should commit to full hop nair or dair since those moves all have a ton of startup, but then sometimes I just end up whiffing and then being above falcon which is also terrible.

Watch videos of top Falcos vs. Falcons and look at what they do in those situations.

 

[StrayDog]

Watch videos of top Falcos vs. Falcons and look at what they do in those situations.

Do you have any suggestions? I've been watching sets from Squid, Westballz and Mang0 against top falcons but it seems like Falcons don't really use that strategy much, probably because there's already some well developed counter to it in the meta. During times when S2J had to come down against Mang0, Mang0 usually shielded it, WD'd away out of shield and then tried to start lasering and there were times in some of Westballz's sets where he would try to double jump above falcon and come down with dair, but it didn't work very well.

 

[Bones0]

Do you have any suggestions? I've been watching sets from Squid, Westballz and Mang0 against top falcons but it seems like Falcons don't really use that strategy much, probably because there's already some well developed counter to it in the meta. During times when S2J had to come down against Mang0, Mang0 usually shielded it, WD'd away out of shield and then tried to start lasering and there were times in some of Westballz's sets where he would try to double jump above falcon and come down with dair, but it didn't work very well.

I see top Falcons use FHs and immediate DJs all the time, but if you're convinced that they don't because it's not good, watch good Falcos vs. bad Falcon players until you find one who does it.

If it seems like I'm being unnecessarily difficult, it's because most players that ask questions about really specific scenarios tend to not have good problem solving skills. I could give you an answer with a general idea of how to counter Falcon jumping, but without researching and figuring it out yourself, you'll inevitably be back a day later to ask a follow-up. This can continue ad nauseum without your understanding of the situation ever improving despite having a bunch of explanations on the situation.

Once you've researched and analyzed a situation, theory crafted possible solutions, and tested each of them, THEN you can post in the thread "This is my thought process, and this is what I've found. Does anyone have input of their own about my solutions?"

 

[StrayDog]

It doesn't seem like you're being unnecessarily difficult, I understand what you're doing. Trust me, I wouldn't be asking about it if I hadn't already tried to find the solution myself. If you notice, I actually did post a number of solutions that I had tried (up tilt, dash dancing, shielding and shine oos, committing to rising nair or dair.) Stuff that I normally use against other fast fallers who are above me. It really just seems like Falcon is at an advantage in this position. My thought process would normally then go to "how to avoid this position," but constantly ceding ground in order to keep Falcon from being cardinally above me seems to usually lose me stage control and stomp and bair have such large backwards reaching hitboxes that crossing under Falcon to get center stage gets me hit a lot of the time. I'm turning to the boards for options I may not have thought of. I get that you're being pedagogical but I don't know how you read my post as "I have done nothing to think about this situation give me the answers" when I mentioned the things I was experimenting with in my post.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I am here with questions about set ups
Dr Peepee

One -
Laser > slight dash forward > dash back > approaching laser

Is this whole 4 piece combination a set up?

What's the point in the dash forward? Is it a decision point so that you then have the option to immediately aerial or dash back and observe?

What does this small dash forward do to differ it from laser > dash back > dash forward laser? I know you talked about this, I just don’t fully understand. I don’t see how this dash forward could influence them, as I don’t see how they could react to it, so I don’t see how that could make it good.

Two -
"A setup's power comes from building decision points into it and practicing it/its variations/understanding its effects on the opponent."

On that note, what exactly is a decision point?

Are decision points just a part in the set up where you would make a decision, either after a reaction and or a read? IE a part in the set up where you would choose to either go into one variation of the setup or another, based on what you see of them?

So the set up itself is a base combination of moves, such as laser > slight dash forward > dash back

And then what move you choose after the decision point is the variation?
I think it's very possible I may be over-complicating this.


Three -
"Yes I did confirm I hit him out of the air. If you'll notice, I actually dashed in first after this laser because I wanted to pressure him if he stayed grounded but then I dashed back to set up a punish/reaction and spacing for the laser as I see he's in the air. From there he can't do much after landing so the laser grab confirm was pretty free."

How exactly does dashing in pressure him if he stayed grounded? Are you implying you could react to the laser hitting him when he’s on the ground?

So if an opponent wanted to attack from the front they'd need to wait out that initial advantage period and strike during the more laggy period.


Once you stated that falco’s winning position vs marth is close with a laser out and marth’s winning position vs falco is close with no laser out, why exactly is this?

Aren’t there also many cases where marth is at a disadvantage when you are close with no laser out, maybe you conditioned him to stop dash attacking, maybe he’s holding shield in the corner, where you can dash dance close with no laser out and still manipulate him etc?

also, I don't fully understand what you mean when you say having a laser out, does that literally mean the laser is traveling in the air? Or does it also include the time that marth is in lag from laser hitting for example? Laser travels very fast so I guess I just don't understand how you could always have a laser out, I was messing around with how much time I had to move while laser was traveling which was very interesting and learned some more about it which was nice, but I still don't fully understand what you mean when you say by having a laser out.

I also don't think I understand exactly what you meant by winning position.

Four -
Anyways, I noticed you used very large amounts of laser > slight dash forward > dash back

And also laser > dash back

If I were to add approaching laser to this set up would it make it another set up or just a variation of the original (repeat of first question)? I think i’m probably making this generation of set ups too complicated though.

I was hoping maybe you could explain in further depth the nature of these two set ups in specific.
You used them frequently vs ken when at a standard threat range distance, and after the dash back usually worked your way into more dashes or approaching laser / aerial I believe. I was hoping you could explain it further to help me kind of understand how this set up in specific works, and then I can get ideas to expand upon for other set ups.
basically: can you explain the whole laser dash forward dash back set up to me more in depth? I think that might be helpful

I do have a lot to work with! I'm trying to stay on task, but I still keep generating more questions that I think I would appreciate guidance with. Also your explanation of lasers was very good, it helped me understand some of the problems I have with lasers conceptually.

The four piece is more of the laser dash dash and then the decision of the laser forward I believe. You can think of setups as stuff that leads to the main decision, but the main decision is not always obvious like in this example.

The dash forward is to make the opponent think you may be approaching with a dash aerial after lasering that we talked about before. And yes you can make decisions during the dash, though if it's shorter then you have way less time to react and may be putting that time to react into the longer dash back in this example.

Dash forward breaks space between the two characters, which forces a reaction. If you've seen me talking about threatening range on here, you know that I've said breaching the space between characters forces a reaction because at that space at least one character can use their fastest + largest threat without the opponent really being able to react to it. This obviously differs from dash back in that dash back does not force a reaction but rather encourages one since it opens up space. These types of questions are why you have to look at individual tools before looking at everything together since it just makes things more complicated =p

Decision points are more or less what you said. They are points where your actions or theirs require a response due to frames or spacing or timing.

Three- Dashing in pressures him because of what I mentioned above about breaching TR and also having frame advantage and also my threat of SH Nair/Dair. I can react to laser hitting when someone is on the ground yes, but I may have to do it out of dash forward depending on various factors.

Yes, but obviously it's more complicated than this, with varying laser heights and PS and such getting involved but that's the right idea. This is why vs Falco you want to beat him just spamming laser and then when he readjusts you get more of a chance to abuse movement again before he sets up. It's a delicate game.

Having a laser out as you said is when it's out but also from the advantage you immediately gained with it coming out(which can vary beyond frames to an extent which makes this tricky to explain). And indeed there may be a few situations where you don't need laser to win like heavy advantage ones like you said, but I have to wonder how much conditioning of having a laser out in those situations would contribute to having the advantage in the first place, as well as how you may have had laser advantage a little before that situation occurred. The rule is just that: a rule. It's not going to be perfect but is meant to serve as a guide. Exceptions will always be there.

Marth wins when close to Falco with no laser out because he outranges Falco and outmaneuvers him. Falco's only chance to even this disadvantage is with lasers, so losing that is very much a terrible position for him. This is why even getting lasers disrupted by far away PS can be a big problem in the longer term of an interaction since Marth gets to close space and stop lasers. Falco getting a laser when closer stops Marth from moving/swinging and gives Falco frame advantage and also help him get moves out faster than Marth if need be which abuse Marth's weaknesses and laser's strengths very well. It's a winning position because your advantages are very strong and disadvantages are very weak here. It's the ideal position to fight for in my opinion, hence the name.

Four- Where would you add approaching laser? How far would you approach and from what distance? There's nothing wrong with it, and I practiced using a particular slight dash forward laser in place setup for observation/stage gaining as well as a non-FF approaching laser to gain massive stage space and prey on opponents dashing back when they see me approach and for other reasons. Anyway, don't quibble too much over whether one is one setup or one is another. You'll know obvious differences when you see them. Keep it simple and dissect individual actions, then strings, as much as possible and you'll get general practices to use for whatever else you want.

I'm glad my laser explanation was helpful after all then. I did address less than normal this time but that's because I am hoping you'll spend more time looking at individual tools which will inform your understanding more than looking at the overwhelming forest right now =p

what do I do when falcon is above me? I keep fighting falcons that just full hop and double jump constantly and get directly above me and just come down with stomp, knee, bair or falling up air. dash dancing doesn't seem to work because falco's dash is too short and stomp is ten feet wide or I just get clipped by bair, those aerials all seem to cause obscene shield stun and not even shine oos seems to work. up tilt either trades unfavorably with stomp or just gets beaten by it outright most of the time it seems. I keep thinking I should commit to full hop nair or dair since those moves all have a ton of startup, but then sometimes I just end up whiffing and then being above falcon which is also terrible.

FH Nair/Dair/Bair/Fair into him, and otherwise WD/run back and laser his landing. Shielding and DD and Utilt usually aren't your friends here.

 

[Bones0]

It doesn't seem like you're being unnecessarily difficult, I understand what you're doing. Trust me, I wouldn't be asking about it if I hadn't already tried to find the solution myself. If you notice, I actually did post a number of solutions that I had tried (up tilt, dash dancing, shielding and shine oos, committing to rising nair or dair.) Stuff that I normally use against other fast fallers who are above me. It really just seems like Falcon is at an advantage in this position. My thought process would normally then go to "how to avoid this position," but constantly ceding ground in order to keep Falcon from being cardinally above me seems to usually lose me stage control and stomp and bair have such large backwards reaching hitboxes that crossing under Falcon to get center stage gets me hit a lot of the time. I'm turning to the boards for options I may not have thought of. I get that you're being pedagogical but I don't know how you read my post as "I have done nothing to think about this situation give me the answers" when I mentioned the things I was experimenting with in my post.

Yeah, sorry about that. My own top 3 ways to deal with Falcon jumping are probably these:
1. Back off either with a fadeaway AC bair to beat what he's coming down with (if you can afford to trade in the worst case scenario) or turnaround laser him as he lands, which should set you up for an approach or force him to do something in anticipation of an approach.
2. Challenge him early in the air with SH uair or FH bair. SH uair is harder to react with, but unlike FH bair, it leads to followups and doesn't put you above him. You can FH dair/fair if you are moving forward while jumping.
3. Run underneath/past him. This is best when they're looking for non-stomp aerials because crossing him up means those attacks will completely whiff, whereas a stomp still has a decent shot at trading. You can WD under him and utilt him on the opposite side of his body, you can laser him in the back as he lands, or you can run completely past him and WD back towards him after he lands to shine/start shield pressure.

#1 is best when you have stage to give up. #2 and #3 are best when you don't. #2 is especially good on BF and DL because of their high top plats. It's extremely hard for pretty much every character to deal with a Falco doing a dash FH dair to the top plat, and while being above Falcon isn't desirable, it's not too difficult to regain stage control from the platforms. If you find that it is, then you might need to work on feinting your movement off of plats and shield dropping punishing to counter their attempts to hit you.

 

[Deep_Cuts]

Hey guys, I’m wondering how to make better use of falco’s jab. It seems like a really good tool with a lot of potential, but I don’t have a good handle on how to apply it yet. Some general questions I have are:

1. What are some good scenarios to throw out jabs? (Is it percent/character dependent? Should you ever use jab 2, or just jab 1?)
2. What are some good ways to convert once a jab connects?

Usually when I connect a jab they’re out of hitstun so fast that they still have time to cover whatever I do next. If anyone has any advice I’d appreciate it! Thanks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Kinda depends on various factors for jab. Spacing matters because some closer jabs are easier to shield grab or CC punish than others(and of course some grabs and attacks are longer than others), conditioning also matters because jab isn't often safe unless it hits and they don't hold down or are at very high percent, and percent matters because of what I just described.

So based on this, use it on characters with lower ranges such as spacies and either spaced or when they don't expect it. It best converts into punishes at higher and quite high percents with jab Fsmash/Dsmash or jab Nair/Dair into punish, but you can also jab run up shine bair them, especially if they get knocked down from holding down. You can also use jab as a BS shield pressure tool which can be hard to react to since jab is so fast and that's where the second jab can sometimes come into play like you asked.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I like jab as a reaction to shield to test them to see what they'll do out of shield, particularly scouting aerial out of shield and roll options. You can also jab cancel into f-tilt which is a pretty safe option when spaced.

 

[AnonymousID]

If falco is underneath the side platforms of like battlefield/dreamland, and peach is floating in the middle, should falco always just shoot her down? (I'm thinking of the full hop double laser fast fall so the 2nd laser hits peach) I don't see how peach could punish falco for doing this and it ends up stopping her float and bringing her down to the ground.

 

[Bones0]

If falco is underneath the side platforms of like battlefield/dreamland, and peach is floating in the middle, should falco always just shoot her down? (I'm thinking of the full hop double laser fast fall so the 2nd laser hits peach) I don't see how peach could punish falco for doing this and it ends up stopping her float and bringing her down to the ground.

What I have witnessed PP do and what I have started incorporating is to WL onto the side plat as soon as Peach starts floating. She can't really float towards you quickly enough to attack the WL on reaction, and once you're on the side plat, you can laser her out of her float, SH/run off with an attack, FH WL onto the top plat, or drop back through the plat with a laser to cover your landing. If she's a little closer than center stage, you can also keep in mind the option to FH Phantasm and ledge cancel it on the top plat. She is totally incapable of chasing this movement on BF and DL, and from the top plat, you have tons of options to get back down.

Of course, you can always take the simple option of jumping towards her and attacking, either with a SH fair/uair or FH nair/dair, but I think this tends to be quite an obvious option, both for Falco players asking about how to deal with floats as well as for the Peach players in game. They tend to throw out a FC aerial the instant they see forward movement in anticipation for these kinds of attacks, which means you can also just move back slightly closer to the ledge and laser her landing, but if she calls you out on this, you're suddenly trapped on the ledge in shield or being knocked off stage and edgeguarded which is why I prefer to take the more proactive approach of escaping before she gets near the plat with her float.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Peach can float in if she suspects you'll do this and get under you as you land if you FH and on smaller levels like YS she could just float over and hit you even if you WL, so you'll need some DD/timing mixups/attacks to keep her off balance but yeah taking side platform lasers is generally strongest and what I usually recommend.

 

[Barron]

A while ago I was playing friendlies with a Falcon that would roll when I started pressuring their shield. I'm thinking that a good option to do against this is to shoot a laser in place to their new current position and chase them down with an aerial (keeping the advantage?). Another thing I was thinking about is maybe doing a nair / shine wavedash down and begin dash dancing to cover the roll. Thoughts?

On Alex's Puff Stuff blog that Bones posted, it was mentioned that Falcon's stomp OoS comes out frame 21 ("falcon’s stomp OoS is active on frame 16 after 5 frames of jumpsquat.") Soo now I'm thinking that if I'm dash dancing on a falcon's shield and they decide to jump, I can shield their stomp on reaction if they decide to go for it. Assuming I'm dash dancing inside their shield, am I at risk of any other aerials? His nair comes out frame 12 after jumpsquat bair comes out frame 15 after jumpsquat. Dunno if they would hit

Also, Bones, the Alex Puff Stuff blog you posted is a good read! If anyone has any other sources of information I'd greatly appreciate them. I was listening to David Sirlin's book "Playing to Win" that was listed on the blog. That was pretty cool to listen to, would recommend to anyone else that cares

 

[Yort]

Dr Peepee

I have just a few follow up questions I think I need help with for now.

How do I go about testing the basic tools themselves? Should I just test and understand the basic movement tools individually and see how they respond and then work on the set ups?

What's the difference between a reaction point and a decision point in a set up?

How do I get good at playing to learn and still playing fast? I feel like I've been doing this wrong honestly, I've been playing to learn a lot recently and I think I've kind of been playing relaxed and not caring too much. I've noticed myself slow down increasingly and caring less and less. I had a tournament recently where I couldn't get out of this slow constant analysis / thinking mode and it definitely bogged down my play. I don't really care about it, but sometimes I worry that i'm doing this wrong and it's hurting me.

How can I play to learn while also maintaining my speed and focus? It feels super difficult right now, I don't care if i'm losing while doing it, and it's helped me a ton in getting over the anger i used to feel while losing in friendlies which is really good for me I think, however I sometimes worry that i'm starting to take friendlies not seriously at all and it might be hurting me. I feel like i'm internalizing slower play and I think that's bad for me.

Also I know you wrote on this before but what do you recommend to do to work on focus while playing?

 

[Bones0]

A while ago I was playing friendlies with a Falcon that would roll when I started pressuring their shield. I'm thinking that a good option to do against this is to shoot a laser in place to their new current position and chase them down with an aerial (keeping the advantage?). Another thing I was thinking about is maybe doing a nair / shine wavedash down and begin dash dancing to cover the roll. Thoughts?

On Alex's Puff Stuff blog that Bones posted, it was mentioned that Falcon's stomp OoS comes out frame 21 ("falcon’s stomp OoS is active on frame 16 after 5 frames of jumpsquat.") Soo now I'm thinking that if I'm dash dancing on a falcon's shield and they decide to jump, I can shield their stomp on reaction if they decide to go for it. Assuming I'm dash dancing inside their shield, am I at risk of any other aerials? His nair comes out frame 12 after jumpsquat bair comes out frame 15 after jumpsquat. Dunno if they would hit

Also, Bones, the Alex Puff Stuff blog you posted is a good read! If anyone has any other sources of information I'd greatly appreciate them. I was listening to David Sirlin's book "Playing to Win" that was listed on the blog. That was pretty cool to listen to, would recommend to anyone else that cares

Falcon has a 4-frame jumpsquat, so it might be frame 20 OoS unless he mistyped the active frame. Either way, I think stomp is reactable as long as you are anticipating it, but it's definitely hard. If you watch Wizzrobe vs. Armada from Summit, whether Armada was able to shield his dash jump stomps or not was a huge factor in how the matches went. DDing near him and just looking for stomp OoS seems decent, and I think DDing behind him could encourage him to do it more, especially if you're low % when his bair OoS is less effective. If you're in front of him, nair is way too dangerous to mess with imo. Falcons live for nairs that either knock you down or put you in mixup scenarios where you feel pressured to roll or dodge because it gives them grab opportunities. DDing behind him sounds really strong though, so I'm definitely going to try that out to see what they do. Worst case scenario seems like they will fadeaway with the stomp or bair so that they are safe, or if they WD OoS away from you, it will be hard to react to that (since you're looking for stomp) and chase him down with a laser or w/e.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

I have just a few follow up questions I think I need help with for now.

How do I go about testing the basic tools themselves? Should I just test and understand the basic movement tools individually and see how they respond and then work on the set ups?

What's the difference between a reaction point and a decision point in a set up?

How do I get good at playing to learn and still playing fast? I feel like I've been doing this wrong honestly, I've been playing to learn a lot recently and I think I've kind of been playing relaxed and not caring too much. I've noticed myself slow down increasingly and caring less and less. I had a tournament recently where I couldn't get out of this slow constant analysis / thinking mode and it definitely bogged down my play. I don't really care about it, but sometimes I worry that i'm doing this wrong and it's hurting me.

How can I play to learn while also maintaining my speed and focus? It feels super difficult right now, I don't care if i'm losing while doing it, and it's helped me a ton in getting over the anger i used to feel while losing in friendlies which is really good for me I think, however I sometimes worry that i'm starting to take friendlies not seriously at all and it might be hurting me. I feel like i'm internalizing slower play and I think that's bad for me.

Also I know you wrote on this before but what do you recommend to do to work on focus while playing?

Analyze individual tools and their properties and consider how they impact the opponent. Practicing the basic tool over and over while thinking of these things can be helpful as well, and surprisingly deep. Once you know the basics better you can begin combining them and start the process over.

There's no difference to me.

Playing to learn and playing to win are two different modes. Eventually, you can take the calm and memory gained from playing to learn and add it to playing to win but it takes time. Playing to win comes from the hunger to win and it's about combining everything together, whereas playing to learn is much more about learning and ignoring the result. Switching between the two modes in friendlies is a good way to practice combining them some, as well as integrating all of your knowledge. That said, you have to go slow before you can go fast, so it may not be a problem right now. Experimenting and learning will surely help you figure it out.

Meditation, taking care of the body, eliminating psychological tension, visualizing your goals to motivate yourself, practicing the integration of playing to learn and playing to win for relaxed intense concentration....these are all good ways to improve focus.

 

[Dedgehog]

I'm having trouble shine-wavelanding consistently in games. I've noticed that when I mess up, I shine, and I end up landing on the platform and go through the jumpsquat animation and it throws off the airdodge for the waveland. Where should I be trying to shine? Should it be on top of the platform? Underneath? Or do I need to learn the timing for both?

 

[Bones0]

I'm having trouble shine-wavelanding consistently in games. I've noticed that when I mess up, I shine, and I end up landing on the platform and go through the jumpsquat animation and it throws off the airdodge for the waveland. Where should I be trying to shine? Should it be on top of the platform? Underneath? Or do I need to learn the timing for both?

If you accidentally shineland, you can either try to time your shine so you are higher or lower than the plat, but ultimately, I think the best course of action is to JC your shine quicker. It takes quite a few frames for the shine to land so if even if you do the frame perfect shineland input, you can pretty easily DJ and WL before you land. As far as where to shine, I made a post about it recently, but the basic idea is you should shine at different heights to throw off your opponent, especially if they like to shield drop. Shining low lets you go for shield pokes. Shining as you pass through the plat allows you to WL asap after the DJ. Shining high will put them in shield stun later than they're probably anticipating, and as a result, they are more likely to miss their shield drop or other OoS action (with the minor drawback of having to waste a few more frames airdodging down to the plat).

 

[Jimbo Jumbo]

This might be something I have to figure out on my own, but I figured I'd post this question here and if anyone has had similar experiences I'd love to hear their input!

I got into the competitive scene a little over a year ago and started going to tournaments this summer. I took a break for a couple months but started practicing again a couple weeks ago. I've found that insecurity has been a huge problem for me when playing -- in friendlies, on netplay, in tournament, or wherever else. I'm thinking less about the match/what I'm doing wrong and more about what the opponent thinks about me. If I miss a wavedash or don't get anything off of a grab/shine or do something stupid in neutral I just imagine them thinking "why would he do that" or "this guy's trash" or something along those lines.

Does anyone have any advice for getting past that? I'm obviously practicing so I'll get better with time, but I know I'd do a lot better right now if I had a healthier mindset. I think it might also have to do with my age -- I'm 22, which feels a little old to be going 0-2 at most of my tournaments (which is a stupid thing to worry about, I know, but I still do). And maybe getting to know the people in my scene better would help as well. But if anyone has any tips or relatable experiences or whatever else I'd love to hear about them. Thanks!