"Failure to Launch"

[Thunder Of Zeus]

Link to original post: "Failure to Launch"



A failure to launch my skill in SSBB.

I'm curious as to why this is. I practice for hours every week. I read guides. I play Marth and Falco. I've been Smashing since 64. I'm not stupid. I'm not slow.

I like to blame it on my lack of tournament experience, but somehow that doesn't measure up. There has to be something more.

While I have never been to a real life tournament, I have had Online Tournament experience. I have been playing Brawl for about nine months now.

Are there any tips or pointers that anyone could give me to set me in the right direction? Tournaments are not possible for me, so don't bother with that.

 

[:mad:]

It's called "wi-fi", bro. If you take wi-fi seriously, you're bound to get worse.

I can't think of any thing that could make you better, assuming you're Wi-Fi only.

 

[SuSa]

I will say now.

Nothing compares to real life tournaments. Wi-Fi is a good way to improve at the game. But to properly learn a character, to properly learn what works, you should be playing offline.

Think of WiFi like playing a CPU, and at that, it has seperate pro's and con's. (The pro being that your opponent hopefully isn't a complete idiot AI)

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

So what you are saying is that there's nothing I can do.

 

[SuSa]

Because tournaments are not a possibility for you. For the most part, yes.

Very, very, very few people (I can't even think of one) were great because of WiFi.

 

[Grey Belnades]

So what you are saying is that there's nothing I can do.

You have to find people to play offline, I have my friends and that's how I mostly improve.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

You have to find people to play offline, I have my friends and that's how I mostly improve.

I'm fourteen. My parents do not support my Smash Career.

I have no ride to tournaments.

I have no friends that play Smash; my cousin quit.

 

[Grey Belnades]

I'm fourteen. My parents do not support my Smash Career.

I have no ride to tournaments.

I have no friends that play Smash; my cousin quit.

Well...the only choice you have is play wi-fi...

 

[SuSa]

Find local smashers, ask for rides.

Smash community is nice, unless you are just plain out, out of the way. Chances are you can get a ride to a tournament.

Don't have money for the tourney? Get a job, mow lawns. Pick up dog **** (that's a legit business. Trust me), walk dogs, do something. (Plus money is always nice to have. Even if you don't spend it on tourneys.)

My Dad wasn't supportive til I brought money home.

"Hanging out with friend Bam today. Seeya"

Bam is my ride to tourneys.

Him and Dao. :3

But now that my Dad supports me, if I'm just unable to get a ride. He'll give me one.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

Find local smashers, ask for rides.

Smash community is nice, unless you are just plain out, out of the way. Chances are you can get a ride.

My Dad wasn't supportive til I brought money home.

"Hanging out with friend Bam today. Seeya"

Bam is my ride to tourneys.

Him and Dao. :3

But now that my Dad supports me, if I'm just unable to get a ride. He'll give me one.

My parents are also very strict.

Since I'm starting High School this year, maybe I'll make some Smash friends.

 

[Nysyarc]

I don't know why people bash WiFi so much without actually any real reason... if I asked you to give me a reason the only thing you'd come up with is "lag". I've been playing on WiFi since I started taking the game seriously and it's helped me to improve a lot, to the point where I'm now the best offline Ike in my city and possibly in my province.

Lag johns are for scrubs. Anyone who uses that as a reason to hate on WiFi has either never tried WiFi and is just jumping on the bandwagon, or gave up and rage-quitted the first match they played with lag. Once you get used to it you realize it's not any different at all. Match-ups between characters don't change, some ATs are harder to perform at first but given time you can learn to use them both online and offline.

Other than timing tricky ATs... it's all the same. Spacing isn't any harder. Reading and punishing isn't any harder. Varying your approaches and defensive game isn't any harder. To say this guy has hit a brick wall just because he plays WiFi is ridiculously ignorant and blatantly dismissive.

My advice for the OP: go to the Smash School thread in the General Brawl Discussion forum. Find a teacher for the character(s) you want to learn and start lessons. We need more students and would be happy to help you out over WiFi. If we can see you playing real-time we can critique your style and give you some things to work on.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Because tournaments are not a possibility for you. For the most part, yes.

Very, very, very few people (I can't even think of one) were great because of WiFi.

...Samboner?

 

[SuSa]

And how has Samboner placed offline?

@Nysyarc
I hope you know I'm very, very pro-WiFI and over 90% of everything I know and everything I learned, I learned on WiFi. Not long ago I was 1980~ on the AiB ladder with a 104-9 record and a 39 win streak. Trust me, I'm all for WiFi. I just don't play much at all nowadays. (Besides tournaments, I haven't really played at all to be honest) don't really have the time.

And the person I've been losing to the most for the past month is DSF. -_- (2-0, then 2-1..getting closer though)

 

[:mad:]

I don't know why people bash WiFi so much without actually any real reason... if I asked you to give me a reason the only thing you'd come up with is "lag". I've been playing on WiFi since I started taking the game seriously and it's helped me to improve a lot, to the point where I'm now the best offline Ike in my city and possibly in my province.

Lag johns are for scrubs. Anyone who uses that as a reason to hate on WiFi has either never tried WiFi and is just jumping on the bandwagon, or gave up and rage-quitted the first match they played with lag. Once you get used to it you realize it's not any different at all. Match-ups between characters don't change, some ATs are harder to perform at first but given time you can learn to use them both online and offline.

Other than timing tricky ATs... it's all the same. Spacing isn't any harder. Reading and punishing isn't any harder. Varying your approaches and defensive game isn't any harder. To say this guy has hit a brick wall just because he plays WiFi is ridiculously ignorant and blatantly dismissive.

My advice for the OP: go to the Smash School thread in the General Brawl Discussion forum. Find a teacher for the character(s) you want to learn and start lessons. We need more students and would be happy to help you out over WiFi. If we can see you playing real-time we can critique your style and give you some things to work on.

I don't think you quite grasp the concept of "it's wi-fi, it's horrible."

You're not getting any better because you have no offline experience to compare, and being the best Ike in a particular region isn't saying much because there aren't many Ikes to begin with.

'Tricky ATs' only apply to maybe 2 characters. He's already hit the brick wall, stop making wi-fi sound like something good.

 

[Matador]

Very, very, very few people (I can't even think of one) were great because of WiFi.

IT'S A......!!!

...Samboner?

.....trap...T_T

In response to the OP: You must learn to play the game. A good player knows the game, its characters, your matchups and things of that nature.

A GREAT player knows how to pick apart his opponent quickly and consistently read him throughout a match; regardless of who that person is or how long you've been playing. Adaptation, techskill, mindgames, all of it comes from offline tournament play.

Wifi gives you the same experience, but a very poor version. You CAN improve over wifi, but its limits will soon become apparent to you.

 

[SuSa]

Straked, I don't think you understand WiFi.

Yah, it's bad. But it's better then computers. And unless you have a ****ty connection, while the lag can be game changing. You shouldn't be caring about winning or losing anyways.

It's about learning how to play the ****ing game. When you are able to tech chase in 6 frame or worse input delay, when you tech chase offline. You might as well be doing it blindfolded.

Learning how to play a character on WiFi? You can learn up to a point.
Learning how to space on WiFi? Again, only to a point.
Learning what works? Don't do this on WiFi. It tends to give a false view of what works. (EG: Most people who camp super hard on WiFi find it to work. They try it offline, and get their ***** handed to them)
Learning how to play the game? The fact that you are playing human players makes this great.

EDIT:
@Matador
Can you give me 2 tournaments that Samboner did well in? I don't think I've ever seen his name off of WiFi. <_< /I don't look hard enough

 

[:mad:]

Straked, I don't think you understand WiFi.

Yah, it's bad. But it's better then computers. And unless you have a ****ty connection, while the lag can be game changing. You shouldn't be caring about winning or losing anyways.

It's about learning how to play the ****ing game. When you are able to tech chase in 6 frame or worse input delay, when you tech chase offline. You might as well be doing it blindfolded.

Learning how to play a character on WiFi? You can learn up to a point.
Learning how to space on WiFi? Again, only to a point.
Learning what works? Don't do this on WiFi. It tends to give a false view of what works. (EG: Most people who camp super hard on WiFi find it to work. They try it offline, and get their ***** handed to them)
Learning how to play the game? The fact that you are playing human players makes this great.

I understand what you're saying, I still have fun playing it for Ganon dittos and Duelist.

It's probably not worth arguing any further, so I won't.

 

[Nysyarc]

I don't think you quite grasp the concept of "it's wi-fi, it's horrible."

You're not getting any better because you have no offline experience to compare, and being the best Ike in a particular region isn't saying much because there aren't many Ikes to begin with.

'Tricky ATs' only apply to maybe 2 characters. He's already hit the brick wall, stop making wi-fi sound like something good.

Why would you assume I have no offline experience to compare...? Or are you referring to the OP? I've been to local tournaments and smashfests, and I've reached a point where I find no difference between playing offline and playing online.

We can assume that eventually, the OP may be allowed to travel for tournaments, and when that time comes, he will need the match-up experience and familiarity with his character that Wi-Fi can give him right now at home.

Your last sentence emphasizes my point since there are next to no ATs that are difficult to perform, the game is generally the same on WiFi as offline. Unless you're joking, I'm kind of upset at your closed-mindedness about this...

 

[:mad:]

the game is generally the same on WiFi as offline.

After reading this, I'm pretty sure any time I spend replying to your post will be wasted.

 

[Nysyarc]

After reading this, I'm pretty sure any time I spend replying to your post will be wasted.

Well it is, after all, still the same game... there's just lag. If you get used to the lag, you find little to no difference between offline and online. People who are used to playing extensively offline can't come to terms with that because they're too afraid to lose their prowess offline to bother getting good at WiFi. The truth is, you can excel at both at the same time.

Anyways, my point in all this...

Don't give up Thunder, if you really enjoy playing this game and want to get good, keep practicing online against other competitive players (only With Friends mode, not With Anyone). You can get match-up experience and learn the advantages/disadvantages of your character's moveset for when the time comes that you can visit offline tourneys.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Wifi = balls

Play offline at tournies.

That's it.

 

[SuSa]

I hate people like the above, whom assume WiFi is complete trash because they didn't give it to the time needed to adapt to the slight changes.

 

[Nysyarc]

it's wi-fi, it's horrible.

Wifi = balls

^^^ The lamest part is that those are the best arguments WiFi haters have. It's not even fun to debate about it because there's no possible opposition other than "WiFi has lag" >_>

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Nope. I'm sure there are more arguments. For example, wifi may be extra horrible depending upon factors such as storms, distance, etc, you know, whatever effects the connection.

Also, you can't tell me that lag is the only problem. Thousands of times, I've had bull**** happen to me for absolutely no reason. Example, something I never input occurs.

Wifi is not reliable. End of story.

 

[Matador]

EDIT:
@Matador
Can you give me 2 tournaments that Samboner did well in? I don't think I've ever seen his name off of WiFi. <_< /I don't look hard enough

Nor do I, or will I.

Wifi has undeniably HELPED a great number of smashers, but that's all its done. You can't become amazing using only wifi unless your name is Ally.

 

[Nysyarc]

Nope. I'm sure there are more arguments. For example, wifi may be extra horrible depending upon factors such as storms, distance, etc, you know, whatever effects the connection.

Also, you can't tell me that lag is the only problem. Thousands of times, I've had bull**** happen to me for absolutely no reason. Example, something I never input occurs.

Lag, lag and more lag. Storms and distance affect what again? Oh yah, lag. And the wrong move got inputted why? Oh that's right, input lag.

It all comes down to lag johns. You can come up with as many creative ways to try and hide it as you want, lag is the only thing you've got, and it's not an obstacle once you get used to it.

 

[feardragon64]

Don't get caught up in that stupid Marth Board fad in Wifi. It's still crap for developing skill without a LOT of offline practice and intentionally not abusing wifi tactics.

Find someone you can play with offline and get better like that. If you can't find a single person who is decent at smash at your high school I'd be very surprised. Honestly my best suggestion is to take a break from wifi. Play against computers if nothing else and do some of the training mode stuff Steel made a thread on.

Susa: Wifi can be alright but it doesn't happen because there are wifi tactics to abuse. If you JUST play wifi on places like AiB, that's what you naturally encounter and start doing. Good players who have learnt from wifi don't play against anybody cause they don't want dumb matches where people abuse wifi tactics. They practice NORMAL games. It's ridiculously hard to do that if you don't have offline experience so you know what a normal game is actually like.

 

[Nysyarc]

abusing wifi tactics.

What sort of tactics are you referring to? I'm just curious.

 

[Matador]

Wow...the influx of Mischief Makers avis makes me smile.

Basically, keep playing wifi if that's all you've got, but practice not on matchups and strategies, but more on reading your opponent and examining your own playstyle. Search hard for faults in your play in comparison to other pros of your character, and seal the cracks.

Watching the game as a viewer rather than a competitor allows you to effectively critique yourself, even on wifi.

Edit @ Nysyarc: An example of a Mario wifi tactic is fireball camping.

That only works on wifi.

 

[Nysyarc]

Edit @ Nysyarc: An example of a Mario wifi tactic is fireball camping.

That only works on wifi.

Well I haven't discovered anything with Ike that only works on WiFi. As long as the input lag isn't like... a whole second or more off I can powershield pretty consistently on WiFi (as can many players who accustom themselves to lag), so projectile camping isn't a problem at a high level of play. It may work against either scrubs or pros who just aren't accustomed to input lag, but if it's ineffective offline, then it's also ineffective online against an experienced WiFi player.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

Wifi = balls

Play offline at tournies.

That's it.

Please read the original entry before posting.

 

[Matador]

Well I haven't discovered anything with Ike that only works on WiFi. As long as the input lag isn't like... a whole second or more off I can powershield pretty consistently on WiFi (as can many players who accustom themselves to lag), so projectile camping isn't a problem at a high level of play. It may work against either scrubs or pros who just aren't accustomed to input lag, but if it's ineffective offline, then it's also ineffective online against an experienced WiFi player.

The difference in reaction time is enough to validate projectile camping and silly Ike antics online. Maybe not to the point where they become staple strategies online, but they won't be rendered completely ineffective.

Simply put, the slowed reaction time, input delay, lag spikes and general wifi failure keeps your post from being true.

 

[theONEjanitor]

wifi sucks to people who play offline a lot and people who want to be good offline.

you all keep saying "get accustomed to wifi"

the fact that we have to "get accustomed" to lag in order to succeed is ridiculous nonsense.

when MK d-smashes my shield. I should be able to drop shield and hit him. that's how the game works in real life.

online its bordering on impossible to punish a shielded d-smash. BECAUSE OF THE INPUT LAG. I mean I could possibly train myself to learn the exact amount of frames BEFORE THE D-SMASH IS FINISHED I should input my buttons in order to punish the move, or I could possibly accustom myself to just simply not trying to punish d-smash, but that, as i mentioned, are counterintuitive, ridiculous nonsense.

and I challenge any one here to say they've never been hit by a random ike/snake/lucario/etc fsmash or something like pk thunder2 just because of lag

and so much of this game OFFLINE is based on what you see. ****, video games IN GENERAL are based on coordination of your fingers and your eyes. In 90% of video games I've played in my life, when I push a button, something happens on the screen at the same time. not a half second later. when ****ty online games came along, they were all gay and dumb because of input lag. thats why games like gow and halo tried to tackle this problem by making it LOOK like your character is doing what you are pressing at the same time because input lag is dumb and everyone hates it. but of course that method could not work for brawl.

i mean honestly i think you're being disingenuous when you say "lol i dun evn no y evry1 sez dey hate wifi"

 

[Nysyarc]

Did... did you even... read my post? I didn't type anything in that last post that could be refuted by saying "lag sucks". I brought up that players who are accustomed to WiFi can get around things like camping and Ike spamming slow moves just as easily as they can offline. I know this because I can, and I've seen others do it online.

What exactly are you guys trying to prove? Like, what's your goal in this? Because what I'm trying to point out is that if you accustom yourself to WiFi and offline play, you can compete well in both fairly easily. All you're doing is running in circles talking about lag and how much you hate it... that doesn't mean or prove anything.[/COLOR]

i mean honestly i think you're being disingenuous when you say "lol i dun evn no y evry1 sez dey hate wifi"

I'll wait for a more intelligent and mature argument and then maybe I'll consider refuting your points.

 

[SuSa]

wifi sucks to people who play offline a lot and people who want to be good offline.

you all keep saying "get accustomed to wifi"

the fact that we have to "get accustomed" to lag in order to succeed is ridiculous nonsense.

when MK d-smashes my shield. I should be able to drop shield and hit him. that's how the game works in real life.

online its bordering on impossible to punish a shielded d-smash. BECAUSE OF THE INPUT LAG. I mean I could possibly train myself to learn the exact amount of frames BEFORE THE D-SMASH IS FINISHED I should input my buttons in order to punish the move, or I could possibly accustom myself to just simply not trying to punish d-smash, but that, as i mentioned, are counterintuitive, ridiculous nonsense.

and I challenge any one here to say they've never been hit by a random ike/snake/lucario/etc fsmash or something like pk thunder2 just because of lag

and so much of this game OFFLINE is based on what you see. ****, video games IN GENERAL are based on coordination of your fingers and your eyes. In 90% of video games I've played in my life, when I push a button, something happens on the screen at the same time. not a half second later. when ****ty online games came along, they were all gay and dumb because of input lag. thats why games like gow and halo tried to tackle this problem by making it LOOK like your character is doing what you are pressing at the same time because input lag is dumb and everyone hates it. but of course that method could not work for brawl.

i mean honestly i think you're being disingenuous when you say "lol i dun evn no y evry1 sez dey hate wifi"

You are trying to take the wrong things from WiFi.

If you care about winning on WiFi, GTFO.

"the fact that we have to "get accustomed" to Melee in order to succeed is ridiculous nonsense."
Notice how horrible and flawed that logic is. You have to get accustomed to anything to succeed at it. The thing is, yeah. WiFi has slightly different gameplay then offline due to lag. Does that change the fact you are able to play humans? Learn from humans? Get experience from things besides computers? Nope.

I have over 2000 hours of online play, with less then 500 hours of offline play. Yet I'm becoming a pretty well known player here in SoCal. Although nearly everything I know. I learned online, and simply apply. In better conditions, offline.

If you happen to play enough offline to understand how people work when in limited positions (EG: on ground, must roll/stay there/getup/getup attack) that's great.

If you don't WiFi can help. Because people work in ways, very similiar to eachother when reacting. Play enough and you'll see this.

I wrote an entire guide on prediction, and everything I've learned about prediction - I learned online. Then applied it offline. It works exactly the same. I can predict random scrubs, I can predict well known players (HugS, Edress are two examples), I can predict people considered "top players" (DSF and Havok). The player changes, the thought process doesn't.

Read one of my earlier posts, it tells you what you can take from WiFi, what is limited by WiFi, and what you have to be an idiot to believe you can gain from WiFi.

 

[Apollo$]

I pretty much trained on Wifi and got good that way, I played someone offline who went to tourneys and I did very well. All the match ups I learned on wifi came into play and it was easy to know what to watch out for. But playing someone IRL is a must

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Nysyarc, how does your Ike place in tournaments that aren't just small locals? Of course you can say your Ike "is the best in your province because of wifi training" but face facts. How many people in your region are gunning for the title of best Ike? It's not like he is a viable character with a myriad of people who play him seriously.

Also, refusing to reply to Janitor's post because you deemed his last sentence "immature" is very, very dumb.

 

[SuSa]

I love how no one attempts to take stabs at my posts.

Give it a try sban.

Also how come I never see you around at tourneys. D=

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Very, very, very few people (I can't even think of one) were great because of WiFi.

Ally and dabuz.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

I only go to melee tournaments lol

And I actually agree with your points. I'm not too concerned with the actual topic, I just saw him use "Best Ike in his province" as a point and felt like replying to that haha