EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[AntoPark]

Doing SWDs are pretty fun, I'm not going to lie, but they don't really win you games or make the momentum flow your way, ahah.

 

[abcool]

Aight. I'll master it though. I think it's better to have a new option with little advantages than non at all. Samus could use a new style and i think swd is the way to go. When it comes down to it, it's all about how to outsmart the other player. Only 3 characters i think shut samus down. Sheik,marth and jiggs.

 

[Geist]

If you can master it, more power to you. People who put SWD in their game deserve accolades and money.
I don't think Jiggs shuts Samus down :/
Ganon is way worse. He can just Fair -> jab your shield all day.

 

[abcool]

I know about ganon...My friend counterpicks him now since u guys helped me with that campy falco matchup. I run for my marth at that point lol. I still need to learn how to beat that matchup with samus just in case. I think the way to go about beating him is to use combos into charge shot. Don't use that hugs style and sleep in your shield, he eats that.

 

[Alukard]

yooo so ... whats new for that jiggs match up ?

i have a couple of vids of my samus in doubles that are going to be put up soon i'll post them up when i get the chance but for now heres one that was put up recently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNUU2BuUUfw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8C_kUfDUW0

money match 3 parts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPbdF4_FWz8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RxFLO-p7Uo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkMYBYALnl8


as some of u guys know i'm a very tricky/flashy player ... imo thats the best way to play samus ... but i really think her strength is edge guarding ... wat other things do u guys think we can abuse as far as really giving a helping hand in double besides missles since that can also affect ur partners approach decisions ...

ima start teaming with hax for tournies ... unless jman comes back to be perma partners with me ^_^

so i'm trying again ... LETS GOOOOOO

 

[Violence]

Samus could use a new style and i think swd is the way to go.

You master the SWD, I'll master the extender, then we'll both get to National level and put Samus back up a tier.

 

[resTy]

You guys hear about Mango's Samus?
I hear it's the best in town. Discuss?

 

[Pi]

Some of you may know this, I know someone posted the frame data a while ago, but I couldn't find it and told rohins I would find out so;

Yea, that just happened.

This is the exact process in frames, that I used on Dolphin
I was holding toward the stage every frame I could after release. You are invulnerable for all of these frames.

Grab Ledge
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Release Ledge
DJ
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Upair
-
-
Land
-
-
-
-Free to move on this frame
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11 frames of totally exploitable invulnerability.


Also frame perfect regrabs have 7 frame of vulnerability.
You DJ on the 9th frame after releasing.

 

[Alukard]

so u have to upair L cancel or does it auto cancel ? also how many frames of invincibility do u even get for grabbed edge

 

[Violence]

This makes me happy in the pants... I'm going to practice ledge game now.

 

[Geist]

You guys hear about Mango's Samus?
I hear it's the best in town. Discuss?

Yeah I heard about that.
Mango claims he's better than HugS or some junk :/

Some of you may know this, I know someone posted the frame data a while ago, but I couldn't find it and told rohins I would find out so;

I'm all tingly now
I assume you're using Uair to snap to the ground as you come up?

 

[Pi]

so u have to upair L cancel or does it auto cancel ? also how many frames of invincibility do u even get for grabbed edge

I'm all tingly now
I assume you're using Uair to snap to the ground as you come up?

this^

It's named Aerial Interrupting and it's a very viable tactic for samus

In video form;

ty phanna

You Upair (which changes your hurtbox as she goes upside down) within 2 frames of being above the stage. Basically where her head would be -in- the stage, and it'll 'Aerial Interrupt' and you'll simply 'land' on the stage, with 4 frames of landing lag.


Also you are invulnerable for 37 frames upon grabbing the ledge. 29 frames you are free to do whatever.

Frame perfect waveland offers 4 frames of exploitable invulnerability



ALSO

Using those 29 frames, you can air dodge & grapple, and if the grapple comes out before the 29 frames is up, the invulnerability carries through, and you'll be able to re-grab, being invulnerable the whole time.
(Talking grapple near the edge so it'll cancel the grapple and you'll grab the edge.)

So in essence we have 1 invulnerable re-grab to exploit.

 

[duals]

^^^^^

Geez, kinda blew my mind there

 

[Violence]

*raises hand*

So what if I hit their shield with the Uair? Will the hitlag cause my invincibility frames to run out before I aerial interrupt?

 

[Pluplue]

you can't hit them with the attack and then aerial interrupt. You get practically no lag when you do what knight said.

 

[abcool]

I wanna see mango's samus. I had a feeling he would pick samus up sooner or later. Mango is on a mission to master and destroy everyone with there own main lol. I knew it would happen espeically after he took mario to another level. I really wonder if he could do it with samus though...

Looks like a new trick that could help by the ledge. I'll test it out later.

@Violence, I was getting the hang of the swd, but i think if i end up in an intense fight and my nerves come down on me i'll screw it up. Still trying though, we'll go to an international (for me atleast)..and take samus up a tier....

 

[duals]

If mango busts out his samus and its like, nothing no ones ever seen before as far as samus plays. Idk if i should be mad or happy. >.>

 

[Pluplue]

you should be mad.



D:

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I would be happy

I can't see Mango playing as passively as HugS so it might show us the light

 

[abcool]

^^^^ I also second this. I haven't played all the gey marths and sheiks some of you guys have ran into, but i feel samus is criticised so badly even though she is top of mid. It's like ppl just have this natrual hate towards her and put her in this category of worst character in the game. Maybe, Mango could show that samus isn't bad, it's just we make poor decisions when we play certain matchups, which he has done with other characters.

 

[Geist]

I doubt it's that monumental. Besides, HugS isn't near as passive as he used to play, he can still get pretty aggressive. Just within his own terms. I'm also very sceptical on whether or not Mango's Samus is better than HugS's. Sounds like Mango swag to me.

That being said... I can't shake the feeling he's going to go Isai on everyone. As in sooner or later he's going to be able to beat any player with any character.

 

[HugS™]

Mango: "And i guess if u truly believe me when i say my samus is better then ur dumb EVERYONE knows im joking.. but ur obviously somewhat threatened.. "

Lol all this speculation is funny. A few points to mention:
-He jokes about it being better than mine
-Obviously he COULD eventually have a better one, so I am threatened.
- It plays exactly like my Samus, so no need to get excited lol. Except sometimes he'll combo better.

 

[duals]

so that's good i guess..

but bad because we can't exactly push farther with samus, right? =\

 

[HugS™]

Well, why is anyone worrying about pushing further if no one has really come close to the current limit yet?

 

[Alukard]

Well, why is anyone worrying about pushing further if no one has really come close to the current limit yet?

i just started to dust off the arm cannon homie! ^_~


u know u love my samus ... mr. abrazos

 

[Pi]

Mango: "And i guess if u truly believe me when i say my samus is better then ur dumb EVERYONE knows im joking.. but ur obviously somewhat threatened.. "

Lol all this speculation is funny. A few points to mention:
-He jokes about it being better than mine
-Obviously he COULD eventually have a better one, so I am threatened.
- It plays exactly like my Samus, so no need to get excited lol. Except sometimes he'll combo better.

Lol.

A while back I pointed out to my friends that when Mango plays characters without unique offensive playstyles, they play similar to HugS

Like his falcon (serious falcon, not zomg gonna **** your face falcon), and his mario.

It's a good playstyle because it takes advantage of your opponents mistakes, the only reason samus playing this way 'looks' gay is because often times UB OoS is the best option, where as other characters just grab, bair, dair, or shine. UB is just simple and slow, and looks like turtling, but if you watch most of the top level players who aren't using Jiggs or Falco, they camp in some form or another. Dash dancing, shielding, lasers, floating.

Approaching is not safe.

At a certain point (within human limitation), SSBM is more about what you're capable of, not what your character is capable of. I'm talking, baiting, reads, reactions, positioning, stuff like that.
At least with samus, fox/falco obviously have a lot of technical stuff which -can- be useful, but is not necessary.

But I'm not saying shielding & wavedashing is the best course of action, or the only way to play.

Skrach, a FL marth player (really smart guy), brought a whole new aspect of melee to my attention recently.
Basically he told me to throw out attacks that I know couldn't be punished, whether they be Ftilts, Fsmashes, aerials, missiles, utilts, anything like that, and kind of -bait- my opponent to approach. Then, when they do approach, counter that approach w/ another attack.

Now previously I had been under the impression that I should never be throwing out attacks that missed, or at least only attack with the intention of covering options, or hitting my opponent. But I had been trying it, and Ftilting to bait approaches and then Ftilting again to counter their approach has been working quite well.

Granted this is a 'flawed' system in essence, because your opponent could/should know what he can punish or not. But we are playing against humans, so it's something to fool around with. I doubt anyone knows the exact distance from which they can punish all of samus' moves. And as samus mains we should have a better idea of what can and can't be punished.

*raises hand*

So what if I hit their shield with the Uair? Will the hitlag cause my invincibility frames to run out before I aerial interrupt?

The hitboxes do not come out when you aerial interupt. Once you initiate the move (for this move at least) it is active for 2 frames, the hitboxes come out on frame 4 I think, but basically it 'cancel's the move hence the aerial 'interupt' name.

 

[duals]

so your saying to use moves that would make your opponent approach?

For instance, throw out a random up air and then counter their approach?

 

[Pi]

so your saying to use moves that would make your opponent approach?

For instance, throw out a random up air and then counter their approach?

Basically yes. But make sure it's an upair that they cannot punish (so...not 'random')

He might have said that to me because, as he also pointed out, my reaction to a move that doesn't hit is to shield. Like...always, so he prompted me to start jabbing/ftilting/countering approaches in general.

Cause if your shield comes out...so can other things.

 

[duals]

Basically yes. But make sure it's an upair that they cannot punish (so...not 'random')

He might have said that to me because, as he also pointed out, my reaction to a move that doesn't hit is to shield. Like...always, so he prompted me to start jabbing/ftilting/countering approaches in general.

Cause if your shield comes out...so can other things.

right right. Im a have to try baiting like you were saying

and I meant random as from the opponents perspective, because ive im playing against a samus and we'removing in and out of our spaces and he throws out an Up smash (which i meant to say instead of up air) I'll probably immediately think "accident" and approach.

 

[Violence]

Kinda like Hungrybox. Throwing out bairs when he knows they can't be punished. His goal isn't to hit the opponent, but to bait them into attacking.

 

[Pi]

Kinda like Hungrybox. Throwing out bairs when he knows they can't be punished. His goal isn't to hit the opponent, but to bait them into attacking.

Exactly
Though some times I wonder...
Especially when he's bairing half way across the stage ._.

right right. Im a have to try baiting like you were saying

and I meant random as from the opponents perspective, because ive im playing against a samus and we'removing in and out of our spaces and he throws out an Up smash (which i meant to say instead of up air) I'll probably immediately think "accident" and approach.

And yea, this.

 

[abcool]

That was really a nice way to put it kniht. I only play that way against ppl i don't take serious because you always have ***** mode switch* If they start punishing you hard, but in a serious match...wow i am gonna try that.

 

[Pluplue]

Lol.

A while back I pointed out to my friends that when Mango plays characters without unique offensive playstyles, they play similar to HugS

Like his falcon (serious falcon, not zomg gonna **** your face falcon), and his mario.

It's a good playstyle because it takes advantage of your opponents mistakes, the only reason samus playing this way 'looks' gay is because often times UB OoS is the best option, where as other characters just grab, bair, dair, or shine. UB is just simple and slow, and looks like turtling, but if you watch most of the top level players who aren't using Jiggs or Falco, they camp in some form or another. Dash dancing, shielding, lasers, floating.

Approaching is not safe.

At a certain point (within human limitation), SSBM is more about what you're capable of, not what your character is capable of. I'm talking, baiting, reads, reactions, positioning, stuff like that.
At least with samus, fox/falco obviously have a lot of technical stuff which -can- be useful, but is not necessary.

But I'm not saying shielding & wavedashing is the best course of action, or the only way to play.

Skrach, a FL marth player (really smart guy), brought a whole new aspect of melee to my attention recently.
Basically he told me to throw out attacks that I know couldn't be punished, whether they be Ftilts, Fsmashes, aerials, missiles, utilts, anything like that, and kind of -bait- my opponent to approach. Then, when they do approach, counter that approach w/ another attack.

Now previously I had been under the impression that I should never be throwing out attacks that missed, or at least only attack with the intention of covering options, or hitting my opponent. But I had been trying it, and Ftilting to bait approaches and then Ftilting again to counter their approach has been working quite well.

Granted this is a 'flawed' system in essence, because your opponent could/should know what he can punish or not. But we are playing against humans, so it's something to fool around with. I doubt anyone knows the exact distance from which they can punish all of samus' moves. And as samus mains we should have a better idea of what can and can't be punished.



The hitboxes do not come out when you aerial interupt. Once you initiate the move (for this move at least) it is active for 2 frames, the hitboxes come out on frame 4 I think, but basically it 'cancel's the move hence the aerial 'interupt' name.

I noticed that too, he'd shuffle forward airs just for baiting. I personally don't approve of this style - for samus anyway - but if it works it works =/

 

[Pi]

it's tough w/ samus because her sh is rather high
but ground moves seem viable, and i've seen you throw out a few utilts to temp in a fox

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Wow thanks knihT (and by transitive property Phanna) on the Uair thing, sounds really useful.

As for the machinations of Samus and Smash overall, I have to concur on both philosophies:


-Samus at the core is defensive, due to her limited ways of rushing down the inherent propery of having a Charge Shot she's designed for coming in at opportune times and moving out when applicable.

-Mango and Samus should, by definition be like 'white on rice' since Mango's innate talent is reading his opponents on a near-psychic level and making the smartest decisions to counter.

-On what Skrach said, I concur for the most part. I play defensively even with offensive characters in Melee, it's a tendency I can't overcome unless I play 64 (MY TRUE LOVE!!! ) where my natural offensive talents lie.


I've used this tactic with Samus all the time, in fact a good deal of my missiles are just to force my opponents to go where I want them to, rather than actually hitting them. One of the tactics I'm currently practicing is a fake SHFFMC into jumping Charging Shot. The sound effect of the false missile alone forces players to react in way that I can take advantage (like spot dodging or rolling) which I can take advantage of.

Other stuff like leaving a bomb in front of a opponent getting up off the ledge forces them to either stay there or try jumping, even though the bomb isn't a real threat. Of course everything is circumstantial and ineffective depending on the player.


Even in high level SF4 players will occasionally throw out light normals to feign offensive actions and tempt opponents trying to react into making a blunder. It works well in tight matches.

 

[Pluplue]

it's tough w/ samus because her sh is rather high
but ground moves seem viable, and i've seen you throw out a few utilts to temp in a fox

snap. I've never really thought too much about my style but I guess you're right.

and isn't shooting a missile always better than missile canceling, red sparrow? XD

 

[Violence]

snap. I've never really thought too much about my style but I guess you're right.

and isn't shooting a missile always better than missile canceling, red sparrow? XD

Playing Shroomed, I know how much he loves to cape every projectile that is aimed in his general direction, so I try to shoot the missiles just over both of our heads, or cancel the missile, both to bait his cape so I can just walk up and hit him.




On another note, I like to throw out random forward tilts. I think it works well as a bait, because I'm not committing very hard to anything, but it's easy to just step in and get *****.

 

[Geist]

It's always better to have a missile out there lmao

Picture this scenario vs Fox
Fake MC to jump Charge Beam. Fox either sees there's no missile, or he WD OoS and runs up to you. All roads lead to Usmash.

And if Doc Capes your missiles, dash attack them for zero consequence.

 

[Violence]

It's always better to have a missile out there lmao

Picture this scenario vs Fox
Fake MC to jump Charge Beam. Fox either sees there's no missile, or he WD OoS and runs up to you. All roads lead to Usmash.

And if Doc Capes your missiles, dash attack them for zero consequence.

Fake MC right outside of Doc's cape range can be pretty mind ****** though. Situationally, I think it's rare that it's better, but there are definitely times when it's better, I think.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

A missile in general is better of course, but against certain characters like Marth/Jiggz who tend to try to challenge the Missile with a Fair/Nair upon appearance, when they just hear the sound but don't see the missile they react defensively instead, usually with a spot dodge.