Evolution is true? (macro evolution)

[Crimson King]

oh no i dont think he did, i thought i posted that i read a false article, something about some called Lady Hope who made up a bunch of stuff. i read that and read darwins family quotes and stuff. i thought i posted that, my bad

and CK have you gotten far in the audio boo?
what do you think of it so far?

I won't be able to until after finals.

 

[JonaDiaper]

oh well i hope you get to listen to it, i think its really good. it has alot of scientific stuff to go along with supporting the Bible, God, and that. hope youll like it

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm:

I dislike the "quote-response" format. You'll find I rarely use it. No big deal there, though.

Understandable. It has its faults... It often leads to answering two seperate ideas when really they should be combined. Just call me on it if I do it.

You're the only coherent poster here who isn't filled with rage, so I'll respond to you.

The necessary follow-up questions to the answers you have provided are:

1) Is god capable of contradiction? IE: Is god above the laws of logic?

Think about this one carefully before you answer. The laws of logic are not to be discarded lightly. Without them, nothing happens for any reason. Up is down, black is white. This entire debate is pointless without logic. Debate itself is the act of determining truth through logic. Always assumed is that logic is universal.

It is true that logic is universal for us. While semantically you could say logic isn't universal (that one may think white connotates evil when we normally reserve that for black, or what we call up is someone else's down, etc., etc.), when looking at logic as a core ideal we can assume that it is something universal to humans. We may have different values that lead us down different paths, but it is universal. It is seemingly, to use the word, logical to assume God follows the same ideas for multiple reasons, the most prominent being that we are egocentric. As much "sense" as this might make to us, we cannot directly attribute these attributes to God, a being who we don't understand in theory. The best we have are interpretations.

Knowing this, we cannot objectively say whether God is capable of contradiction. We can merely guess, and hypothesize what it would be like whether he could or not and then make a more educated guess based on reflections in the present. In short, we could say "If God is capable of contradictions, than A, B, and C" and "If God isn't, X, Y, and Z"... then we look and if we see A, B, and C we see that he is, so on and so on. This is problematic for many reasons, but the point is the best we have is a guess based off of limited information.

Personally, I'd lean towards it being highly possible that God is capable of contradiction. He exists outside of our rules; there is nothing that says we should try to limit him by our own rules.

a) If no, then your god is not omnipotent. There is a class of actions which this god is incapable of doing.

This is dependent, really. Like I said before, God can make a rock he cannot lift, but could lift it if he wanted to do so. This is not technically a contradiction as they are synonymous traits. To try to put it in a human perspective, think of how a 10 lb. weight is light to you yet heavy to a newborn child, but imagine you and the newborn child being one body. That's what I mean by synonymous non-contradiction. This is possible if you exist outside of time.

b) If yes, then to what extent is god capable of contradictions?

i) Physical contradictions only. IE: Making stuff disappear and reappear, and violate the laws of nature. This, unfortunately, also makes your god not omnipotent. Since there is STILL a class of actions which he is incapable of.

We do know he can manipulate the physical realm; I don't know if you'd call it a contradiction though.

ii) All contradictions. A standard example of something that is inherently contradictory is a "round square". A square is by definition "not round". Thus a "round square" is contradictory. But not just any kind of contradictory. It's REALLY contradictory. So much so that it is impossible to even conceive of a round square.

I would much like to hear you answer the question: Is god able to create a round square?

I think I have demonstrated sufficiently why Omnipotence as a concept is nonsense.

A round square is possible, but not by us. You've technically already created a round square in theory by bringing the concept to our attention.

Your focus on what we are limited by is blinding; realize that the rules we have to live by do not apply to those that do not live in this realm, and ask yourselves these questions.

Is a 3D object capable of being created by something on a 2D plane? Of course not. But something on a 4D plane can easily create a 3D object on said 2D plane.

2) You speak repeatedly of "god's perspective". What exactly is that? And how does that differ in a relevant way to a human perspective?

We are reactionary and dependent on variables. God is not.

3) You appear to have to have taken the road of saying that god is the source of morality. (For the record, this is also part of standard christian dogma)

The problem with this option is that god is only vacuously benevolent! If god created the world and said that ****, murder, and torture were good actions and we should do them, then that would be so.

What you are saying is that "anything god does is good". You are saying that the definition of "good actions" is "things which god does/likes".

Also, this contradicts the concept of objective morality. "Good actions" indeed may sway wildly and are highly subjective to god's whim.

It in essence removes any meaning from the word "good", by making this definition.

If God had told us ****, murder, etc., were good then yes, they would be good. Our own kneejerk reactions to such subjects is laughable, especially considering our own ancestors (correction: this still happens today) such as the vikings routinely ***** the females they encountered and found no social ills coming from it.

Good, without God, is an arbitrary term and is merely what one considers to be good. If there was no God, I could slit a kitten's throat because I felt like it, or because I didn't feel like it and there would be no distinction between the two. Only cause and effect. "Good" is not an action.

Morality is what God says it is because as I said before, he makes the rules. While this may not be what HE wants, keep in mind that we are blips on the radar while God, and all concepts of him, is eternal. You may say "I'm doing good" and live a happy life doing what you consider righteous, but does it really matter in the end if God is the one calling the shots?

Existentialism aside, anyone that has traveled to another country know that a human's idea of morality is subjective and changes from area to area. Even just in the United States, we have some openly hating gays while others are pushing legislation through to help them get married. We have the death penalty being used liberally in Texas if it is compared to several other states.

Without God, there is no one "true" form of "good". There is no magical forumla that says "this is what is right".

 

[Overswarm]

I don't understand how you can believe whatever the bible says. It's made up of a bunch of stuff from stories changed and doctored over thousands of years by random people with biases and agendas, and make it seem believable and 99.7% of the entire population of the planet Earth is like "yup they are so right". The people who wrote the bible aren't god, yet we treat their words as law, because in the end you should join the group mentality because it's safer to believe than to question one's existence.

For clarification, most serious scholars read multiple translations and have found that, if you are consistent throughout the Bible, you generally get the same overall meaning. There is a passage somewhere that says God protects his word; while that is vague, it does give precedence to the idea that the Bible itself will remain uncorrupted as a whole, while not necessarily the individual words.

I can give you a link to a website that allows you to see Hebrew translations if you'd like.

 

[JonaDiaper]

Overswarm:

high five? lol

you are honestly the only person who has been willing to help me defend what im saying. it gets kinda hard when it hits the 15 on 1 ratio. im terrible at this and im glad youve been here. even if your intention hhasnt been to help me, thats what i feel your doing. just wanted to say thanks, and have you heard the audio book i gave a link to?

 

[kataklysm336]

man i seriously cant hang with all the smart people. how come christian scientists think evolution is bs? why do only atheist or agnostic people believe in evolution? i honestly think science is just something man created to try and answer things that they couldnt believe God did, or made. i didnt hear of scientists back in Jesus' day try to explain all the miracles he did. oh also someone asked why i believed the Bible if it was just an ancient text, well the new testament has around 2000+ original copies i think and the closest is homers illiad and oddessy with like 600. dont you think it would be pretty accurate?

Cause christian scientists have an agenda. They are out to prove that God created the Earth and that everything else is wrong. Scientists in general are just out to find out what happened, and thousands upon thousands of enlightened brilliant minds have deduced that you are ********.

Oh and ONLY atheists and agnostics dont believe in evolution. Plenty of other people do too. Or maybe God is something man created because they are to ****ing ******** to accept the plausible, true, genuine scientific answer.

Thats because Jesus didn't do miracles. And yes I do think that if its that old it MUST be true thats why we have so many people praying to Zeus, Aphrodite, and other gods, and thats why they have equipped so many ships with Hydra-proof steel, and thats why we still celebrate Prometheus's birthday for when he brought fire to man.

You...are...********.

hm its says more then 3000 times in the Bible,"thus sayith the Lord"
man does not take ownership in anyway of the Bible, only the Bible claims to be written by men who God spoke to.

oh i messed up on the other post, its 24,000 portions of the new testament

and i strongly urge anyone who doubts the Bibles accuracy to listen to chapter 3 of the link i put up a few pages back. go into it about 8 and a half minutes and just listen for a few minutes

Hey...did it ever occur to you that maybe God didnt actually say any of that stuff. And maybe they just wrote that there? I mean...people do that you know. And wtf I dare you to show me one surviving copy of the ORIGINAL new testament. The orginial as in the first one ever written by the people who wrote it.

And I strongly urge you to stop pushing that BS cd that only pushes their ****** agendas. Do you think anyone in that CD is going to make a logical claim based on things they found in the real world? Or do you think they are going to continue to spew the same crap that they have "discovered" through their own means? I mean really man.

I may actually be getting too into this but I cannot stand to see someone fooled by complete idiocy as to believe in something that clearly contradicts all forms of reason, logic, and just plain common sense. I mean dude have you opened a book? Or been to school? Or talked to people? Plenty of things in the world itself are true signs that its all bullcrap. Things we ponder about on an everday basis, clearly make us question our faith. And all along the way people have been trying harder and harder to find ways to cover it up. Its about power man. Power. The church wants power. They have for thousands of years and they still do now. Plenty of things are explained away by saying "God works in mysterious ways", and that "We cannot understand God". Thats crap, CRAP. It's propaganda BS used to chain your mind to the ****** wall, so that in some way this religious organization can have control. It has just filtered down through the ages, and centuries and for some reason intelligent people today find a way to defy their reason and believe this crap.

[/Rant]

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm:

high five? lol

you are honestly the only person who has been willing to help me defend what im saying. it gets kinda hard when it hits the 15 on 1 ratio. im terrible at this and im glad youve been here. even if your intention hhasnt been to help me, thats what i feel your doing. just wanted to say thanks, and have you heard the audio book i gave a link to?

I am helping you only in a causal manner. Many of your points are deluded. You have a math problem and are screaming the right answer, but are telling people to multiply when they know you should divide.

I rarely listen to christian propaganda as they often distort the message. They take the phrase "make disciples of all men" to an extreme in that they are willing to say anything to get people to believe in God. Science has a lot of this too, although they've toned it down. Science books used to tell us that giraffes had long necks because they always reached for trees; a sloppy, dumbed down version of what they consider the truth that helps no one.


As for the rant post above me, calm yourself. Ask yourself if it is possible you are wrong. Don't take into account likelihood. If you have two brain cells, you know it is possible you are wrong. The anger you show blinds you to any option other than what you have already found to be truth.

 

[JonaDiaper]

lol i said portions of the new testamentn, i meant ancient not original my bad. the cd is from one man, he does make very logical claims and if you try and listen to it for a bit you would understand.

lol church wants power? my grandpa is the pastor at my church. he doesnt want anything. and im 16, i could do anything i want, i dont need to believe what i do, but its just once you know the truth its hard to deny it. yea i talk to people, ive been outside. if you knew me you would know that. im a pretty cool guy, there isnt anyone i know that doesnt like me. besides the guys ive told off cuz they tried to get with my girlfriend but anyways, im a normal person. except i got to church alot and believe in God. oh yea im in school too lol just in case you think im not. oh and i dont think churches wanted power since like the catholic church in the 1500s or something. but im sure of what i believe in, dont you think if i felt i was wrong i would have admited it atleast a little bit by now

excuse my spelling im on my cell phone. its has a full keyboard =O better then the iphone. (htc touch pro in case your wondering)

 

[RDK]

man i seriously cant hang with all the smart people. how come christian scientists think evolution is bs? why do only atheist or agnostic people believe in evolution? i honestly think science is just something man created to try and answer things that they couldnt believe God did, or made. i didnt hear of scientists back in Jesus' day try to explain all the miracles he did. oh also someone asked why i believed the Bible if it was just an ancient text, well the new testament has around 2000+ original copies i think and the closest is homers illiad and oddessy with like 600. dont you think it would be pretty accurate?

The Iliad and the Oddyssey are fiction, as are large portions of the Bible.

Honestly Jona, have you ever actually studied ancient Greek history and archaeology? The Greeks inscribed statues of their gods that talked about them like they were real people; as did the Egyptians and the Mesopotamians, and most other major civilizations back then. If you dug one up today, would you honestly believe everything those texts said?

As far as carbon dating, I'm not too knowledgeable on where scientists got the numbers, how did they determine how many years were between each layer of earth? anyone have any input?

EDIT: Wow Goldshadow for prez

Basically the creationist argument against radiometric dating is some random bull**** about how we assume the decay rate has been constant since the "creation" of the earth. This, of course, is bull****, considering that if the decay rate for particles was different, then that means the fundamental properties of particles would be drastically changed, meaning water would boil at different temperatures, and even gravity would fluctuate ridiculously.

 

[kataklysm336]

lol i said portions of the new testamentn, i meant ancient not original my bad. the cd is from one man, he does make very logical claims and if you try and listen to it for a bit you would understand.

lol church wants power? my grandpa is the pastor at my church. he doesnt want anything. and im 16, i could do anything i want, i dont need to believe what i do, but its just once you know the truth its hard to deny it. yea i talk to people, ive been outside. if you knew me you would know that. im a pretty cool guy, there isnt anyone i know that doesnt like me. besides the guys ive told off cuz they tried to get with my girlfriend but anyways, im a normal person. except i got to church alot and believe in God. oh yea im in school too lol just in case you think im not. oh and i dont think churches wanted power since like the catholic church in the 1500s or something. but im sure of what i believe in, dont you think if i felt i was wrong i would have admited it atleast a little bit by now

excuse my spelling im on my cell phone. its has a full keyboard =O better then the iphone. (htc touch pro in case your wondering)

This post alone allows me to see that you are the anti-smart.

And how did they prove that these were the original copies?

And no he doesn't. The guy on the CD is also ********.

No your grandfather is just a pawn in the game of the church. They wanted power years and years ago, people questioned their beliefs and those people were killed and vague reasoning was created to mask the clergy's own ignorance of their own religion. Those "facts" and views have now become excuses for what God does. To say God works in mysterious ways is a cop-out. It's a simple answer to a complicated question that people cannot argue with.

Also faith is bull****. Its also a cop out. People arent supposed to question other people's faith because its rude, when in reality "Faith" is just a way to continue the ignorance. It is something that allows you to deny the facts and accept the illogical.

The whole thing about people like you except the people who mess with your girlfriend blah blah blah statement shows that you have a lot of growing up to do. As does the earlier statement about all the "Terrible" things that have happened to you. Hey man let me clue you in, people we know have cancer, people we know get hospitolized, people we know die, bad things happen to us all. Please learn your stuff before you start attempting to debate with grown-ups. Everyone here who is making you look stupid have been at this a long time. We are veterans at what we do, and we will always continue to attempt to enlighten the cloudy minded. Yeah it was not so long ago that i was 16, but I was immature then too, and I still have a lot to learn. But you have way more. The world is alot more than you think kid. Once you stop metaphorically suckling on your moms teet and get into the real world you will see how things really roll.

 

[JonaDiaper]

it was nothing more then a comparison. schools use those books when the Bible is documented much better. oh i have something for you to say is not true. the prophecies fufilled. explain them. how king david described Jesus' crucifixing 1000 years before Jesus and i believe 600 years before the invention of cruxifying. there are many more that you could try to prove false but this one seems easy

 

[JonaDiaper]

oh man if i wasnt trying to be an example for christians here..

man oh man. you know what im glad that im me. im not gonna say why because people will call me ******** lol dont really care but you know,you think talking about someones faith is rude? yet you call me ******** and thats not? and i havent said a thing about you. notice the difference between you and me?
im sorry you feel that way about faith but youll eventually find out about it. remember the ******** kid who wanted you to see that you need Jesus iight?

i know things happen in life, he tried to tell me i didnt know that, and i was just proving it wrong ok? take it easy buddy, this is the internet remember. you dont have to act mad

 

[kataklysm336]

The scientific community has, long ago, decided that the Bible is NOT true. Its not even something that is up for debate in the minds of logical people. They stopped listening to these debates. The bible is NOT documented much better.

Its a story man. A story. People wrote it down, and then said it was true. That does NOT make it true. Those prophecies? Never made. Never existed, and were never fulfilled. Its a story. Someone wrote a story, that story said their was a prophecy, they SAID it existed, and they SAID it was fulfilled. They just made it up, created, poof, out of the imagination.

I said it was considered rude. That doesn't make what you believe any less ********. Yes I notice the difference. I use my brain. I make my own deductions. People lead you like sheep. You speak as if your dated, useless, want to be science, has any room in a world of logical men and it doesn't. Yes it is frustrated when you see a good mind put to waste because they are too stupid to know they are wasting it.

 

[Charizard92]

Well, there are two arguments against Macro-evolution, and both are, complete bull **** arguments, here's why:

1: Life had to come from non-life: Well, there are theories on how life came to earth, most of which involves processes we can't currently do in a beaker. Also, Life might not have originated on Earth (If you're ever played spore, you know what I'm talking about).

2: There has to be a very long lineage: IMO, Evolution doesn't really take THAT long, IT actually occurs quickly (well, by Earth Standards). Life may take only a few million years to evolve into a different species (sooner with human intervention or mass extinctions). Essentially, it takes long, but not THAT long. Besides, you can theisably align a row of a certain Car and prove the evolution of the car (It just has to be of one car model and get a model of every year before until you reach the invention of the car).

 

[RDK]

I thought maybe this thread needed some lightening up.

You gotta admit, these are hilarious.

 

[JonaDiaper]

The scientific community has, long ago, decided that the Bible is NOT true. Its not even something that is up for debate in the minds of logical people. They stopped listening to these debates. The bible is NOT documented much better.

Its a story man. A story. People wrote it down, and then said it was true. That does NOT make it true. Those prophecies? Never made. Never existed, and were never fulfilled. Its a story. Someone wrote a story, that story said their was a prophecy, they SAID it existed, and they SAID it was fulfilled. They just made it up, created, poof, out of the imagination.

I said it was considered rude. That doesn't make what you believe any less ********. Yes I notice the difference. I use my brain. I make my own deductions. People lead you like sheep. You speak as if your dated, useless, want to be science, has any room in a world of logical men and it doesn't. Yes it is frustrated when you see a good mind put to waste because they are too stupid to know they are wasting it.

ok buddy your someone who cant be reasoned with lol, i understand you know everything and you were there for every single event in history. there is no way you are wrong. nope. and becuase the scientific community said something i must listen. since when does a group of people deciding something make it true? lol and i dont use my brain

 

[kataklysm336]

ok buddy your someone who cant be reasoned with lol, i understand you know everything and you were there for every single event in history. there is no way you are wrong. nopw. and becuase the scientific community said something i must listen. since when can a group of people deciding something make it true? lol and i dont use my brain

You are aware that YOU have been debating for 20 pages that years of scientific research, that has been tested, observed and generally accepted by a large majority of the world as a stated fact, is wrong?

You are aware that you, even though people have already stated fact upon fact, still fail to believe the facts?

You are aware that you want me to believe something that someone wrote 2000 years ago before even gravity was proven, and people still believed the Earth was flat, and the Earth was the center of the universe, is the truth?

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

 

[Cinder]

ok buddy your someone who cant be reasoned with lol, i understand you know everything and you were there for every single event in history. there is no way you are wrong. nope. and becuase the scientific community said something i must listen. since when does a group of people deciding something make it true? lol and i dont use my brain

You have no more proof than we do...stop acting like your belief is supreme and that there's no way YOU could be wrong...

 

[AltF4]

Overswarm:

You're the only coherent poster here who isn't filled with rage, so I'll respond to you.

lol, I appreciate that. Getting angry doesn't help your case, there's no point in it. Far too many people fall into the trap of getting angry when their opposition doesn't admit defeat when they feel they've won. Just present your arguments and let the readers decide!


Umm, as for your post... I get the feeling that there is a bit of a misunderstanding as to the meaning of the word "logic" between us. When I use the term, I do not mean it in a way that you would see Spock from Star Trek use it. He talks endlessly about "logic" in a way which was essentially equivalent to "rational".

That is not what I mean. Logic, in the manner that I use it, refers to a rigorous and well defined set of laws which govern ideas. Logic is equivalent to mathematics, and indeed can be seen as manifestations of the same thing.

Some of the laws of logic include (where each letter variable is a statement which is either true or false):
-"A = A" ie: Something is always equal to itself
-"A or True = True"
etc..

Logic is that which you use in a debate. There are strict rules that govern whether one idea follows from another.

For instance, if I said
-Some football players are short
-Terrell Owens is a football player
Therefore, Terrell Owens is short.

You should notice that this is an invalid argument. But says who? Well, there are laws which govern what arguments are valid and which ones are not. These laws are called the laws of logic.


So you can see why it is very problematic to say that the laws of logic are false. Because that very statement is governed BY the laws of logic! It's a bit like saying "Everything I say is false." Is that statement true or false?


If I may make a suggestion, it would be to reconsider the concept of a god as typical christian dogma paints it. Redefine your concept of god to not be naively omnipotent, but rather "able to do anything which is not strictly impossible". Then you needn't be concerned about all these heavy rocks your god is constantly making.

Also, look into modern physics. Particularly General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. They will both blow your mind and your perception of reality. Remember, that if you believe in god, then this god is the one who set up the universe to work like it does. Physics is not undermining the concept of god, but rather learning empirically about the choices (if any) he's made in creating the universe.


Also, the Debate Hall is a good place for relatively intelligent discussion. Plus, there's a dearth of good theist debaters around here, so you'd likely be welcomed. I get the feeling from you that you're thinking things through, but haven't debated religion much before, if at all.

I'm going to leave this thread for now. It's getting a bit out of hand anyway.

Later!

 

[JonaDiaper]

but whats gonna happen if you guys are wrong and im right? you know exactly where you would be going. if your right then nothings gonna happen to me. im just worried about peoples eternities but since you have yours figuered out, ok.

 

[Overswarm]

Everyone that posted between this post and my last is foolish and doesn't know what they're talking about.

Jona is obviously young and unable to fully explain himself (if he is able to at all). The others are fueled by anger.

Oddly enough, both are saying the exact same thing. Neither group has said anything worthwhile. They just piggyback on what other people have said. I find that amusing.

 

[RDK]

but whats gonna happen if you guys are wrong and im right? you know exactly where you would be going. if your right then nothings gonna happen to me. im just worried about peoples eternities but since you have yours figuered out, ok.

Look up Pascal's Wager.

Honestly, I'm ending my subscription to this thread. Posting common knowledge arguments over and over is not worth just having you skim over my posts and jump to the next garbage from Answers in Genitals.

 

[otg]

For clarification, most serious scholars read multiple translations and have found that, if you are consistent throughout the Bible, you generally get the same overall meaning. There is a passage somewhere that says God protects his word; while that is vague, it does give precedence to the idea that the Bible itself will remain uncorrupted as a whole, while not necessarily the individual words.

I can give you a link to a website that allows you to see Hebrew translations if you'd like.

Dude, I was just copying what Jona wrote and changed "science" to "god" etc etc etc, lol. Read the quote and than read my post. And no, I'm not interested in seeing the Hebrew translations of the bible, lol thanks.

Also Jona, you said awhile back that only atheists believe in evolution. Uhhh no. Pretty much only in America do you see such a large percentage of the country NOT believe in evolution. I would say most developed countries outside of America acknowledge evolution to be fact, even deeply religious nations such as Italy. The U.S. is also one of the last nations to acknowledge things like global warming which science clearly proves to exist (as to whether or not we are the cause of it/we can do anything about it, is another story), so we are a little behind the times in terms of academia and our school systems/results can back that up. We have an agenda, and information is partitioned off in a certain way in this country that people can't make the best decisions.

While you are correct that Atheists and agnostics probably 100% believe in evolution, that doesn't mean only Atheists and agnostics believe in evolution. It sounds like most of the people you associate with are deeply religious Jonathan, as a result you guys are trapped in an echo chamber. Anything outside of this echo chamber is "wrong" because you aren't used to it.

Jona, I think you should really consider going to college, or else this ignorant mentality you have now will continue on with you and be passed down to your kids (get the **** out of westchester). Nothing to do with religion at all, this is how I see you acting all the time in terms of anything you believe is right. Religion just happens to be at touchy subject, and it's awesome to see so many people in our age group as atheists/agnostics, our generation might have some hope afterall.

In regards to "what if I'm right, and you're wrong?" Well... I would like to point out that there are thousands and thousands of different religions on this planet, Christianity being one of them. Statistically, you have a 1/10000 chance of being right, not even counting sub-sects of different religions (Catholicism/Quakers/Protestants/etcetc). You have just as good a chance of being wrong as I do, and frankly to say your religion is right and everyone else is wrong is just ethnocentric and ignorant as hell.

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm:



lol, I appreciate that. Getting angry doesn't help your case, there's no point in it. Far too many people fall into the trap of getting angry when their opposition doesn't admit defeat when they feel they've won. Just present your arguments and let the readers decide!


Umm, as for your post... I get the feeling that there is a bit of a misunderstanding as to the meaning of the word "logic" between us. When I use the term, I do not mean it in a way that you would see Spock from Star Trek use it. He talks endlessly about "logic" in a way which was essentially equivalent to "rational".

That is not what I mean. Logic, in the manner that I use it, refers to a rigorous and well defined set of laws which govern ideas. Logic is equivalent to mathematics, and indeed can be seen as manifestations of the same thing.

Some of the laws of logic include (where each letter variable is a statement which is either true or false):
-"A = A" ie: Something is always equal to itself
-"A or True = True"
etc..

Logic is that which you use in a debate. There are strict rules that govern whether one idea follows from another.

For instance, if I said
-Some football players are short
-Terrell Owens is a football player
Therefore, Terrell Owens is short.

You should notice that this is an invalid argument. But says who? Well, there are laws which govern what arguments are valid and which ones are not. These laws are called the laws of logic.


So you can see why it is very problematic to say that the laws of logic are false. Because that very statement is governed BY the laws of logic! It's a bit like saying "Everything I say is false." Is that statement true or false?


If I may make a suggestion, it would be to reconsider the concept of a god as typical christian dogma paints it. Redefine your concept of god to not be naively omnipotent, but rather "able to do anything which is not strictly impossible". Then you needn't be concerned about all these heavy rocks your god is constantly making.

Also, look into modern physics. Particularly General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. They will both blow your mind and your perception of reality. Remember, that if you believe in god, then this god is the one who set up the universe to work like it does. Physics is not undermining the concept of god, but rather learning empirically about the choices (if any) he's made in creating the universe.


Also, the Debate Hall is a good place for relatively intelligent discussion. Plus, there's a dearth of good theist debaters around here, so you'd likely be welcomed. I get the feeling from you that you're thinking things through, but haven't debated religion much before, if at all.

I'm going to leave this thread for now. It's getting a bit out of hand anyway.

Later!

I've debated religion quite a few times, and am familiar (thought not as much as I'd like) with general relativity, quantum mechanics, string theory, wormholes, and things of the sort. It's the things that fit like a puzzle like that that push me in the direction towards God, among other things. There is no reason that things developing on opposite ends of the universe should all work the same unless there has been no change since the creation, both of which are astounding.

But again, what is impossible to us is not impossible to someone who doesn't play by the rules. Can we wavedash in Brawl? No. But Melee Fox could wavedash in Brawl if he were placed inside it, and Master Chief could dual wield plasma rifles and give Bowser plasma scarring.... if you get my drift.

Everything changes when you are dealing with an element that for all our extents and purposes does not belong. No laws of any kind are forced to apply to this being, whether they do or not is arbitrary.

everyone else bickering

Why are so many people assuming that evolution disproves the creation story? I'm confused by this.

 

[kataklysm336]

Everyone that posted between this post and my last is foolish and doesn't know what they're talking about.

Jona is obviously young and unable to fully explain himself (if he is able to at all). The others are fueled by anger.

Oddly enough, both are saying the exact same thing. Neither group has said anything worthwhile. They just piggyback on what other people have said. I find that amusing.

Being young and unable to explain himself does not excuse him. If he is unable to thoroughly explain himself and backup his side then he is not qualified to be in the debate.

I know I come off as angry and for that I apologize. However, he continues to use his "knowledge" that has already been labeled as flawed to support even more flaw statements, and is rather frustrating.

Yes we may be sating the same thing, however the scientific side had evidence, testable, observable evidence, whereas the creationist side has only a book, a highly debatable and often refuted book at that.

 

[JonaDiaper]

yea yea i got you guya. but there is one question all of you should think about. its all i care about, its a what if question. assuming we can all be wrong here.

what if you died in your sleep tonight and you face God. are you going to go to heaven or hell? based on Gods standards. aka the Bible. just think about that. im not trying to force anything and i just want people to understand this IS a possibility, no matter what you say. it COULD happen. and according to every other religion, hell is the worst punishment there could ever be. so you might wanna think about it. i guess im done here, i seriously have no place with people that know how to debate but its ok, i got my point across.

 

[otg]

what if you died in your sleep tonight and you face God. are you going to go to heaven or hell? based on Gods standards. aka the Bible. just think about that. im not trying to force anything and i just want people to understand this IS a possibility, no matter what you say. it COULD happen. and according to every other religion, hell is the worst punishment there could ever be. so you might wanna think about it. i guess im done here, i seriously have no place with people that know how to debate but its ok, i got my point across.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68

 

[Mith_]

Why are so many people assuming that evolution disproves the creation story? I'm confused by this.

I'm confused as well. I haven't seen much besides people disproving certain parts of the bible, nothing saying evolution makes the bible false.

 

[JonaDiaper]

oh overswarm, its not evolution, its just the macro evolution part. i mean if God says he made us then he made us. we didnt come from a single cell, single atom or anything like that. thats why i think evolution goes against God, or creationism i should say

 

[Overswarm]

Being young and unable to explain himself does not excuse him. If he is unable to thoroughly explain himself and backup his side then he is not qualified to be in the debate.

I know I come off as angry and for that I apologize. However, he continues to use his "knowledge" that has already been labeled as flawed to support even more flaw statements, and is rather frustrating.

Yes we may be sating the same thing, however the scientific side had evidence, testable, observable evidence, whereas the creationist side has only a book, a highly debatable and often refuted book at that.

2000 years ago it was the other way around, was it not?

Public opinion and criticism does not change what is right or wrong. Arbitrary evidence also does nothing. Find what you need to reference, learn about it, understand it, then reference it. Do not stand on the backs of others and cross your fingers unless you have to.

 

[Overswarm]

oh overswarm, its not evolution, its just the macro evolution part. i mean if God says he made us then he made us. we didnt come from a single cell, single atom or anything like that. thats why i think evolution goes against God, or creationism i should say

You're right. When God said "let there be light", it couldn't be a metaphor for the big bang. God just flipped a light switch. Considering the obvious heavy amounts of meatphorical speech in the Bible, it is always a good idea to see if they're trying to say something else when they say these things...

 

[JonaDiaper]

but when God says that he made man with his own hands, i refuse to think we just came about. no way

 

[kataklysm336]

2000 years ago it was the other way around, was it not?

Public opinion and criticism does not change what is right or wrong. Arbitrary evidence also does nothing. Find what you need to reference, learn about it, understand it, then reference it. Do not stand on the backs of others and cross your fingers unless you have to.

I'm sorry sir, but I have looked over many things and learned many things for myself. Just because I am not throwing out math here and there doesn't mean that I am ignorant on the subject I speak about.

Every theory ever came from research done by people that came before the person creating the theory. If experiments and observations are not proof enough then what is? I have to trust in the scientists that make these deductions. Why? Simply because they can understand things on a level that I cannot.

Referencing anything just goes back to standing on the backs of others. Because unless you did the experiment yourself, came up with the equation yourself, and did everything yourself, you are standing on the backs of others. You have to take the word of others who are more capable than yourself.

 

[JonaDiaper]

just saying...

if God does exist would you trust his word (the bible) because he is more capable then you are?

 

[Tactical]

You're the only coherent poster here who isn't filled with rage, so I'll respond to you.

Hmm, what makes you think I am filled with rage? As I said before, I am taking part in this discussion because I am bored. I harbor no ill will to anyone in this thread. I am about as mad right now as I am during our tournament matches.

As I have said before, you are the only one here on the religious side that can actually make arguments to support your position. I respect that and I value your opinion. That is why I would really like to know how you would respond to my last post on page eighteen. If, however, you no longer wish to debate with me I would appreciate it if you would just say so. The passive agressive denials are annoying :/

 

[kataklysm336]

If God was out and about proving the ways the world works then yes.

You see these scientist are more capable than I because they have college degrees in areas of studies that I cannot even begin to grasp. They can do things think on levels that I cannot. Newton is certainly more capable than I because he realized and calculated the Laws of gravity and once those laws were tested and stood the test, that gave him credibility. So therefore he his more capable at making those kinds of decisions than I, so I trust in him.

However I cannot interact with God in anyway. God has never physically done anything, or actually proven that he even exists. Therefore he has zero credibility.

 

[JonaDiaper]

you can interact with God through prayer, its the only way we can interact with him. maybe you should give it a shot and ask God that he does something so he can show you hes there. all you need is a little faith and itll happen

 

[kataklysm336]

But can you see God?
Can you smell God?
Taste God?
Feel God?
Hear God?

 

[Crimson King]

Hail Satan!

Closed this because literally nothing is being accomplished.