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EVO RULESET ANNOUNCED. The ruleset has been updated!

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Crazy Cloud

Smash Journeyman
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GG:AC not being on the list, and now this. Screw it, I'm not even gonna bother with EVO this year.

Come on, what kind of scrubs made this ruleset. They might as well just do a copy + paste of gamestop's tourney, since that's what these matches are going to boil down to. Draws leading to sudden deaths, smash balls winning the match, and they might as well leave all the other items on. Go all out :ohwell:.

And 2 stock 3 minutes? I know brawl is umptine times slower than Melee, but wow.

No Melee, No GG:AC and a casino ruleset for brawl, SRK and EVO '08 are a joke and a half.
 

artyartea

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
4
I think they do have asolution

I think like most of you that items are unbalanced. But Family Fun Arcade did a tourney which they enable a few items, the result was better than expected. Read this please before flaming!

Regarding this video and the tournament itself: The Evolution Fighting Game Championships is set to have "Super Smash Bros. Brawl." in its 2008 lineup. However, they do not have a ruleset in place. They have been asking tournament organizers to conduct events to test out different rules. Among the things in question is the use of items.

Family Fun Arcade decided to run a tournament with items in play. The frequency was set to Low, with only these items to be used: Lip's stick, star rod, super scope, fire flower, freezie, hothead, mr. saturn, green shell, banana, spring, franklin badge.

The goal of this tournament was to find out if items were feasible or not.

LINK: http://youtube.com/watch?v=XrFLy8Eji-4

Note: To me those items are quite balanced and not game breaking but anyway thats my own opinion.
 

Taekmkm

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
72
Note: To me those items are quite balanced and not game breaking but anyway thats my own opinion.
One problem. Evo's item set is almost NOTHING like Family Fun Arcade's list. Those items are nothing compared to the damage Smashballs can do.

I would actually enjoy a ruleset similar to Family Fun arcade because it's a good compromise of the 2/3 3 stock ruleset, while allowing items for the majority casual gamers.
 

SamDvds

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Messages
734
lol it doesnt surprise me actually....i went to Evo for melee in chicago last year and it wasnt that great of a turn out...anyone who supports items in smash tourneys needs to gtfo of smashboards.
 

artyartea

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
4
I hate items overall in melee but it may add something great for SSBB. Not all item of course I meant the Family Fun Arcade items list. I feel like theres a few Characters with limited versatility and by adding a few of this items it can make game more fun and even but I know that if versatile characters pick items then the game is gonna go rather uneven, but then these items add strategics approaches. I see few items with good competitive potential. Go watch the link I posted before to see what I mean.

Note: Sorry about my terrible English!

Edit: Nice game here http://youtube.com/watch?v=XrFLy8Eji-4&feature=related
 

-Linko-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
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498
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I fully support Jack Kieser's "Item Standart Play" project.

But EVO rules are bull****. Even itemnites like me say it. Heck, ISP has Smash Balls, 75m and Mario Bros. banned for a reason.

This rules just suck.
 

metalmonstar

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,081
Did I read that correctly? The only way to win is stage stall and if you don't then you lose the match. With only 3 minute matches that should be no problem.

Seriously the rules are pretty ridiculous. Two stocks and three minutes long. I bet a lot matches will run out of time. If you mess up once you have pretty much lost the match.
 

drSuper

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
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85
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listen to metal fingers
They are clearly making fun of us as a serious community. Sure they have been experimenting with items in a competitive setting, but some of them are just completely unfair. I believe I read somewhere in their forum "imagine the crowds reaction when someone who is losing gets the final smash and comes back to win". Key words being -imagine the crowd-
This isn't the major leagues, its the WWF (WWE whatever)
 

3xSwords

Smash Lord
Joined
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Bergen County
I hate items overall in melee but it may add something great for SSBB. Not all item of course I meant the Family Fun Arcade items list. I feel like theres a few Characters with limited versatility and by adding a few of this items it can make game more fun and even but I know that if versatile characters pick items then the game is gonna go rather uneven, but then these items add strategics approaches. [/url]
What you fail to realize is that competitive play is not about more "fun." It's about who has more skill, so if someone sucks then they better start accepting that fact, because competitive rules were not made to help the scrub have a "fairer" chance. And it's your fault if you pick a character with limited versatility. Eventually you have to draw the line between "let's have fun and be fair" and "I will win by whatever means possible."
 

Wolfblade

Smash Lord
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Well if your opponent gets the smashball first because he/she was using a faster character then that's your own **** fault for using a slow character.

I'm not here to argue or start anything i'm simply explaining the thought process behind the EVO ruleset but apparently logical dispute is beyond most who post here because saying "items are a joke" or something like that passes for a good reason to not play with items around here.
And who do you main? I hope its somebody lighting fast or with ridiculous range on projectiles (Pit, Falco). Right there the game went from being balanced to ridiculously unfair. There is now no point to use anybody who isn't fast. Case in point, 75% of the roster is now useless.

The tier debate is definately over now. Speed= Power. There are only 3 tiers now.

Top Tier
Fast with projectiles

High Tier
Fast

Garbage Tier
Everyone else

Seriously dude, you can't be serious.
 

Wind Owl

Smash Lord
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Actually Zelda isn't very fast but is retardedly good at getting Smash Balls, and she has a really good Final Smash.

EDIT: Not disagreeing with your point; Final Smashes are stupidly unbalanced and this ruleset blows.
 

artyartea

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
4
What you fail to realize is that competitive play is not about more "fun." It's about who has more skill, so if someone sucks then they better start accepting that fact, because competitive rules were not made to help the scrub have a "fairer" chance. And it's your fault if you pick a character with limited versatility. Eventually you have to draw the line between "let's have fun and be fair" and "I will win by whatever means possible."
Eeerm I think you misunderstand what I meant. I am saying since EVO decided to use item I come with a rational solution. Lets use item on low percentage and only a few. Heck I prefer no items I always played like that for many years now, before bashing my solution go read careful thanks.
 

Sundown

Smash Journeyman
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May 13, 2006
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218
LOL typical smashboards idiots *****ing about items.

I think the time should be increased to 4 or 5 minutes but otherwise all the rules seem very balanced and fair to me, at SRK we go by our rules and what we think is fair if you don't like it them simply don't attend the biggest brawl tourney in the U.S.

At SRK we been having tournaments for the past 2months to test what should and shouldn't be at EVO and this is the collection of what we've come up with. Most items are left in for the same reason we don't ban any characters and those who don't like items are usually the ones who lose to them and are too unskilled to do anything about them. If it's in the game then unless it is blatantly broken like akuma in super turbo then we don't ban it. For example most people here on smashboards hate smashballs in tournaments because they think it gives the lesser skilled player an undeserved chance to win but if you are truly the better player then you would be able to get the smashball before they do.

Instead of whining and coming off as a scrub try being pragmatic, if any of you has a problem with any of these rules then post a logical and civil reason here http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=155899 of why you think any of the rules should change.
LOL... "we at SRK"... i laugh my *** off at you, unless you are actually some1 that means something to the FGC, which i doubt, cause you wouldnt post like such a complete idiot if you were. So dont throw out "we at SRK" you idiot, cuz you make SRK look bad.

Second, if you had actually tested this **** properly, you should know that this rules so unbalanced that it is unbelivable... 2 stocks and with smashball on... do you have ANY IDEA OF WHAT CAN SONIC DO WITH THAT??? (run the *** away for the whole time, waiting for a smash ball, when it comes, get it, BECAUSE IF YOU ARE ANY GOOD WITH SONIC YOU WILL GET IT BEFORE YOUR OPPONENT, then press B, then **** your opponent once, then when he respawns, wait for invensibilty to wear off, then **** him again, cuz the final smash lasts long enough.)

You are ********.
 

Yuna

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Eeerm I think you misunderstand what I meant. I am saying since EVO decided to use item I come with a rational solution. Lets use item on low percentage and only a few. Heck I prefer no items I always played like that for many years now, before bashing my solution go read careful thanks.
The only ruleset EVO can dictate is their own. We cannot dictate their ruleset for them. Hence, they'll use their ruleset. There's no need for us to "let's use items set on low". Let's just not use them at all. EVO can use them if they want to, let's not use them just because EVO does.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
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Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
And you can pretty much forget the Smash future at EVO altogether. If enough people don't go, EVO will eventually drop it from their lineup, which is probably for the best. Seeing the game b@stardized like this is disgusting.

Either people lose interest because of the gay rules and Brawl gets dropped, or there'll be enough item-hungry n00bs to keep it going for a while.
 

Dustero

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
435
I am never going to play with those rules! I'm only going to play with 3 stock, 7 min., not items.

Legal Stages:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
 

artyartea

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
4
The only ruleset EVO can dictate is their own. We cannot dictate their ruleset for them. Hence, they'll use their ruleset. There's no need for us to "let's use items set on low". Let's just not use them at all. EVO can use them if they want to, let's not use them just because EVO does.
Yeah I know but what I was trying to say since EVO want items a good solution is the one used at Fun Arcade. I don't want to use them <-- to clarify! Evo is dead to me when they post that joke rule list!
 

Wolfblade

Smash Lord
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Actually Zelda isn't very fast but is retardedly good at getting Smash Balls, and she has a really good Final Smash.

EDIT: Not disagreeing with your point; Final Smashes are stupidly unbalanced and this ruleset blows.
No she counts cause her projectile is fast. I wasn't just refering to sprint speed but their projectile speed as well.
 

drSuper

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
85
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listen to metal fingers
I am never going to play with those rules! I'm only going to play with 3 stock, 7 min., not items.

Legal Stages:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
No one is telling you that you have to play w/ those rules. Thank you for contributing nothing to this discussion, we are all aware of the swf consensus on rules
 

MechaJesus

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
15
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East Cost near DC
I just wanted to point out something about all the people who are using the same argument:

There is a vein of arguments that seem to follow what is basically the same course:

"Items spawn at random places and times, with randomly quality/usefulness of item. Sometimes a very useful item will spawn right next to your opponent, or sometimes a very useful item will spawn when you are in a situation such that you cannot possibly reach it before your opponent, such as when you are recovering from being knocked off the ledge. Therefore, that gives your opponent a completely unfair advantage, because you are expected to overcome insurmountable odds."

This argument might work if we were all playing single rounds with one stock or something. However, this tourney is two stocks each round, and best 3 of 5 rounds. Therefore an important statistical law comes into play.

I would like to remind everyone of the "Law of Averages." (If you are familiar with this concept, you can skip the next two paragraphs.)

The Law of Averages is just a statement of fact about occurrences that happen with a certain probability over multiple trials. It states that, even if you get statistical outliers to occur (statistically improbable situations occur) that swing the balance of something in one direction, over multiple trials there will be other outliers, until eventually the whole reaches the average.

In other words... let's use the example of a coin flip. The odds are 50% for heads and 50% for tails. If I flip a coin and get heads three times in a row, it seems that luck has favored heads. However, this does not mean that heads will be in the lead the whole time. Eventually luck will favor tails. Over multiple trials, luck will even out until both tails and heads are equal.

This same law of averages applies to items in Smash. Everyone whines about the possibility of their opponent getting a good item while they were busying trying to recover back onto the stage. Certainly this is a possibility, and it could swing the match in your opponent's favor. However, truly assesing the situation for what it is is not that simple.

First, you are as likely to get favored with a good item when your opponent is trying to recover as the opposite. Think about it; Each matchup is going to go to at least 3 rounds. That means each player gets to see at least 6 stocks or 9 minutes worth of action (Assuming you don't get blown out of the water; I'm assuming some closeness in skill here). How often do items spawn on medium? I have no concrete information here, so I'm going to guess once every 20 seconds or so. That means you get to see a minimum of 27 item spawns. What do you think the probability is that they all favor your opponent? Probably pretty radically small. The chances of items alone truly deciding the match are not good.

Second, the factor that causes you to miss an item is not always random, which is a crucial oversight in the original argument (the one given at the top of my post, third paragraph). So you are recovering and your opponent gets a good item; why are you recovering? If you find that there many more times where your opponent gets a good item while you are recovering than the other way around, there is some logical explanation for it. No person is ever "unlucky" in that regard due to the law of averages; if there are multiple trials then eventually luck will even out. Maybe your opponents are simply better at keeping you busy with recovering, and are busy recovering less often themselves, which is why they are having "better luck" than you; they are simply getting more opportunites to have good luck than you are.

Really, given the above, I don't know how you can say most of the items on that list are somehow game-breaking.

I could still see there being room for debate over the inclusion of the ray gun and the smash ball, as even marginally good luck (receiving that item once or twice more than your opponent) could decide a match, especially with characters like Falco or Sonic where the smash ball can potentially two-stock and therefore decide an entire match. Still, if you think green shell spawns are what is causing you to lose, you are probably blaming the wrong thing.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
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Messages
6,390
This argument might work if we were all playing single rounds with one stock or something. However, this tourney is two stocks each round, and best 3 of 5 rounds. Therefore an important statistical law comes into play.
So the fact that there's one unfair advantage automatically cancels out because it's spread across several trials? That's some of the dumbest logic I've seen yet.

In other words... let's use the example of a coin flip. The odds are 50% for heads and 50% for tails. If I flip a coin and get heads three times in a row, it seems that luck has favored heads. However, this does not mean that heads will be in the lead the whole time. Eventually luck will favor tails. Over multiple trials, luck will even out until both tails and heads are equal.
That's completely ludicrous when considering sets of merely best-of-three matches. If random forces equal themselves out in the end, then there would be no winner or loser.

Just a side note, but if they eventually equal out in the end to make the game as fair as it would have been without items, why even go through the trouble of putting items on? Again, stupid arguments.


First, you are as likely to get favored with a good item when your opponent is trying to recover as the opposite. Think about it; Each matchup is going to go to at least 3 rounds. That means each player gets to see at least 6 stocks or 9 minutes worth of action (Assuming you don't get blown out of the water; I'm assuming some closeness in skill here). How often do items spawn on medium? I have no concrete information here, so I'm going to guess once every 20 seconds or so. That means you get to see a minimum of 27 item spawns. What do you think the probability is that they all favor your opponent? Probably pretty radically small. The chances of items alone truly deciding the match are not good.
The fact that favoring is in effect negates your whole argument about what's fair and what's not.

Second, the factor that causes you to miss an item is not always random, which is a crucial oversight in the original argument (the one given at the top of my post, third paragraph). So you are recovering and your opponent gets a good item; why are you recovering? If you find that there many more times where your opponent gets a good item while you are recovering than the other way around, there is some logical explanation for it. No person is ever "unlucky" in that regard due to the law of averages; if there are multiple trials then eventually luck will even out. Maybe your opponents are simply better at keeping you busy with recovering, and are busy recovering less often themselves, which is why they are having "better luck" than you; they are simply getting more opportunites to have good luck than you are.
But it's still unbalanced.

And going back to your coin-flip analogy--you basically destroyed your own point by admitting that luck does not actually even out over multiple trials. You stated in the beginning of your analogy "If I flip a coin and get heads three times in a row, it seems that luck has favored heads." Okay.....so heads (I.E., one character) was favored three times in a row, meaning that character won the three matches due to good luck. There was obviously no evening-out going on in those matches.


Really, given the above, I don't know how you can say most of the items on that list are somehow game-breaking.
^ Made me lol.

I could still see there being room for debate over the inclusion of the ray gun and the smash ball, as even marginally good luck (receiving that item once or twice more than your opponent) could decide a match, especially with characters like Falco or Sonic where the smash ball can potentially two-stock and therefore decide an entire match. Still, if you think green shell spawns are what is causing you to lose, you are probably blaming the wrong thing.
Nobody ever mentioned green shells once.
 

TKD+ITA+Mar=

Smash Ace
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^^^ Before I start, let me say thank you very much for presenting your argument in a civil, intelligent, organized, and mathematical way; it is much appreciated.

I do have some issues with your arguments unfortunately. Primarily, the golden hammer, it is quite rare and may only show up once every couple matches, causing the Law of Averages to not take full effect. After taking a course in game theory I am confident that it is extremely rare for multi-variable probabilities to even out entirely. On a more personal note however, I am a person who competes at very high levels (not in Smash though), and after training hard your entire life for something, you do not want luck to be involved at the slightest.

(Great first post though)

Oh and I agree with Red Darkstar Kirby
 

MechaJesus

Smash Rookie
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So the fact that there's one unfair advantage automatically cancels out because it's spread across several trials? That's some of the dumbest logic I've seen yet.
No. The fact that one player gets an advantage at one point is offset because the other player will get an advantage down the road. Eventually it will all even out down the road.

That's completely ludicrous when considering sets of merely best-of-three matches. If random forces equal themselves out in the end, then there would be no winner or loser.
Not "there would be no winner or loser," but "It would be even." As in, the benefit gained from items overall would be even for both players. Skill level would be the ultimate deciding factor.


Just a side note, but if they eventually equal out in the end to make the game as fair as it would have been without items, why even go through the trouble of putting items on? Again, stupid arguments.
First, the same argument works both ways. What's the point of leaving them out?

Second, I'd argue that items add an interesting strategic depth to the game because they expand the possibilities each player has, but that's a whole different debate. Right now I'd just like to show that there is no reason to dismiss items due to unfairness; after that is shown then there is a whole separate debate waiting.

In other words, you make an entirely different argument here from the one I was trying to refute (and a good one at that, though I think it is still open for debate), and while I recognize I haven't presented any reason for you to think otherwise, it'd get way too complicated if I tried to put both into one train of thought.

The fact that favoring is in effect negates your whole argument about what's fair and what's not.
No, I don't see how it does. Each player being favored at different times by luck does not invalidate the whole thing, so long as overall it equals out.

But it's still unbalanced.
Your opponent is getting better items because he his keeping you away from the stage to claim those items for himself. It'd be unbalanced because your opponent is simply so much better than you, yes. But in that case, shouldn't your opponent win anyways?

And going back to your coin-flip analogy--you basically destroyed your own point by admitting that luck does not actually even out over multiple trials. You stated in the beginning of your analogy "If I flip a coin and get heads three times in a row, it seems that luck has favored heads." Okay.....so heads (I.E., one character) was favored three times in a row, meaning that character won the three matches due to good luck. There was obviously no evening-out going on in those matches.
My point was that, even if the items in one match should go strongly against you, in later matches you will eventually get the same treatment. You're focusing too much on the example and my use of "three" in the example rather than the actual argument the example is demonstrating.

That example was never meant to translate literally to a Brawl match like you tried to do, but instead it was meant to demonstrate a higher-level concept that could also be applied to Brawl.

Besides, even if you had to translate it literally, each heads would be one item spawn, not one match. The chances of it going significantly against you is very small.

Nobody ever mentioned green shells once.
It was just a convenient example.
 

ipeefreeli

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
1
The people who support items are just not smart. Thats all it is. If they were smart enough, they would realize that its random and lowers the skill. You cannot win an arguement against a ******. Its impossible, they cannot be enlightened no matter how hard you try.

This is just more reason for me to hate casual elitists. Actually, casuals in general. So many games have been getting watered down these past few years, I don't know what is going on with this friendly pick up and play crap, but its awful and ruins great games.

edit: (sp)
I'm sorry but this post irks me. It angers me. Because you know, casuals are the scourge of gaming, and gaming companies should only make games that appeal to the minority. Because apparently games that are fun and easy to pick up and play are bad. No the only good games are those that time x amount of practice time and effort. Let's ignore the fact that the majority of gamers aren't in fact hardcore games, but casual gamers who don't play competitively and don't want to put in x amount of practice or effort, I'm sure they must all anger you so very much. QQ more.
 

Lawlb0t

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 21, 2007
Messages
1,731
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360 Degrees
Does anyone else think this is just a conspiracy to get SSB out of EVO since alot of fighter people don't like it? I don't see the beef they have with SSB unless they are fanboys not of Nintendo.
 

MechaJesus

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
15
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East Cost near DC
^^^ Before I start, let me say thank you very much for presenting your argument in a civil, intelligent, organized, and mathematical way; it is much appreciated.

I do have some issues with your arguments unfortunately. Primarily, the golden hammer, it is quite rare and may only show up once every couple matches, causing the Law of Averages to not take full effect. After taking a course in game theory I am confident that it is extremely rare for multi-variable probabilities to even out entirely. On a more personal note however, I am a person who competes at very high levels (not in Smash though), and after training hard your entire life for something, you do not want luck to be involved at the slightest.

(Great first post though)

Oh and I agree with Red Darkstar Kirby
Perfectly fair argument, you could say that one item is so game-breaking that even getting marginal luck in it (once or twice more often than your opponent) is game-breaking.

I think that would work very well as an argument to ban a certain item, but not as an argument to ban items alltogether.

I fully recognize that the smash ball, the ray gun, and to a lesser extent even the hammers and the home-run bat are fully debatable as to whether they should be included or not, outside of a blanket argument against the inclusion of items at all.
 
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