Evo 2kXV Competitive Impressions

[DunnoBro]

No.
It's talking about the ruleset that Japan uses. Back then and currently now, people think the whole 3 stages (in brawl) and Omegas only (smash 4) is silly, but it reality it's pretty much ingenious since that's all we play on anyways.

"Simplicity" is a better word or it. There's nothing genius about letting sonic play on FD that much, there's a reason japan considers him 2nd best.

>opponent is the one who deserves to lose because he didn't "prepare" for this

...Yes? Lol, if you're not prepared and that's what causes you to lose, then you do in fact, deserve to lose. End of story

This doesn't mean custom villager isn't dumb, polarizing, or "toxic" but the fact you think you should be able to beat characters, no matter how good they are without understanding or preparing for them is ridiculous. Pre-patch diddy was irrefutably more polarizing than custom villager(not to mention wayyy easier to play) but he didn't cause that many upsets since people recognized his power and prepared for him.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Everybody should have a pocket Kirby to deal with custom stuff ;D

This is simple. Villager is vulnerable from above and no longer has ledge invincibility. Meteor Stone completely destroys Villager, as it kills at 5% on FD and 15% on Battlefield. Along with that, Giant Hammer's super armor can be used to go through the wall of projectiles and Counter Sapling, then swung as Villager. This is surprisingly efficient, as Villager can't escape it. If Explosive Balloons or projectiles are being spammed, Kirby can hit during the mandatory ledge hang time. Villager can't escape this by trying to jump over Kirby without dying, as no ledge invincibility, Explosive Balloons helpless state, and Giant Hammer beats out Villager's grab. Along with that, Kirby can get Pocket to send projectiles back.

This forces Villager to fight on the stage, which, while I won't go into crazy detail on that, isn't a big deal. Kirby doesn't have much trouble dealing with Villager, while Villager doesn't have much trouble dealing with Kirby. It's a pretty even MU with customs on.

 

[PUK]

Everybody should have a pocket Kirby to deal with custom stuff ;D

Or a zelda, since she has the only unpocketable projectile (Oil panic aside), spammable from afar if she loses the lead.

 

[DunnoBro]

Or a zelda, since she has the only unpocketable projectile (Oil panic aside), spammable from afar if she loses the lead.

Villager can't pocket zigzag either (unless the dhd screws up... but even then, its 90% useless pocketed. It'll literally go through dhd and not explode until it travels an entire stage distance)

 

[Macchiato]

I'm just happy that ven made it through pools. Too bad he didn't get any stream time but he got top 128? 164? idk

Zelda and Samus were more popular, people would hate their Farore's Wind and Screw Attack too. To summarize, people just hate.

Zelda will always be the most popular. Ninja suits will make you polular.

On a serious note, people will get salty over default WiiFit hoops because when your opponent tries to edgeguard you, the hoops might stage spike them.

 

[Minordeth]

I don't think people are giving CaptainAwesum or whatever, enough credit for exploiting a very specific villager strat. Yes, it's lame, but if you are a professional level player, and you didn't even look to see what say, the most complained about custom strats are, and you show up to EVO, you should lose to those polarizing strats. ADHD infamously pulled out what CaptainAwesum is doing now, and high level players don't have an excuse to not know at even a basic level how to possibly counter ledge-camper villager.

However, that CaptainAwesum is doing this well is not just due to other players slacking, but him gambling (correctly) on the fact that high level players would not take labbing out customs seriously.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Or a zelda, since she has the only unpocketable projectile (Oil panic aside), spammable from afar if she loses the lead.

Can Zelda deal with Villager if they decide to get off the ledge and attack directly, though?

Also, @ Shaya , is this type of discussion allowed in this thread or nah?

 

[Macchiato]

Can Zelda deal with Villager if they decide to get off the ledge and attack directly, though?

Also, @ Shaya , is this type of discussion allowed in this thread or nah?

Actually as a Zelda main, yes. Zelda can deal with Villager's zoning game effectively. The sapling might bother you depending on playstyle like for example, most my movement is SH nair so I won't be tripping much. Ground based Zeldas might have more trouble.

 

[PUK]

On a serious note, people will get salty over default WiiFit hoops because when your opponent tries to edgeguard you, the hoops might stage spike them.

People will get salty because they don't like to be proved wrong when it comes to placement in tiers lists.

Can Zelda deal with Villager if they decide to get off the ledge and attack directly, though?

She's not worse than kirby to the job. Usually when you're not ZSS or Ike, trying to get inside zelda spacing results in a salty death.
Jigg tmtc what zelda mains mean when they say 0 to death.

 

[Yoh1]

How do people know if these players really weren't prepared or don't know a matchup though? I don't get it. You can still lose even if prepared.

 

[Macchiato]

How do people know if these players really weren't prepared or don't know a matchup though? I don't get it. You can still lose even if prepared.

It's the players fault for not preparing for match-ups in the first place. Skill is also a big factor in smash.

 

[Yoh1]

It's the players fault for not preparing for match-ups in the first place. Skill is also a big factor in smash.

I know but how would we even know if they prepared or not? is what I'm getting at here.

 

[Minordeth]

CaptainAwesum hasn't even won his own locals. He is top 32 at EVO. That actually literally speaks volumes about preparedness and familiarity with a given strategy and MU.

 

[Macchiato]

I know but how would we even know if they prepared or not? is what I'm getting at here.

Biggest customs debates = Dong Cyclone/Villager

Sorry, but not preparing for those at evo is p dumb.

 

[PUK]

I know but how would we even know if they prepared or not? is what I'm getting at here.

Imagine you see a ness using PKT2 in the neutral against a Shulk. That's can actually work, but it's unnecessary, and really dangerous. Even if the shulk player doesn't counter it it's a proof the ness player doesn't know the MU.
When a GaW is fighting a WFT and use his bucket to take the SS while charging, it's a proof GaW knows the MU (not everyone know that you can do that), but not enough, since if he does he would now it's trashing his bucket with a 0% move.
These type of small error is what you have to look for when you play against someone.

 

[TriTails]

It's the players fault for not preparing for match-ups in the first place. Skill is also a big factor in smash.

Uh. That's not answering the question.

I know but how would we even know if they prepared or not? is what I'm getting at here.

Urh... one example would be Sheik NOT crawling under SH rockets. Seriously though, wouldn't that be as obvious as heck?

 

[DunnoBro]

The only custom chars I can blame people for not being prepared for are specific player techs. Like how I'm the only one who actually really knows how to use zigzag + mega gunmen. Or 6wx and burning spindash + springing headbutt. Boss is the main player at xanadu I practiced custom DHD with and as a result he destroys me if I go custom DHD vs him, whereas my pocket yoshi always takes him to game 3/5. I barely practice yoshi, too.

 

[TriTails]

whereas my pocket yoshi always takes him to game 3/5. I barely practice yoshi, too.

Because Luigi has a bad MU against Yoshi? Or is it because matchup inexperience?

 

[DunnoBro]

Because Luigi has a bad MU against Yoshi? Or is it because matchup inexperience?

The inexperience, yea. He has no idea what to do. I'd help him out but I did that with DHD and now I went from beating him/going even to getting destroyed despite being way better than I was back then.

 

[Yoh1]

Would that be not knowing the matchup at all then or just a small mistake? Just wondering cause I notice people talking about knowing the matchup a lot on the boards. How much do you have to know to really say or tell that you know the matchup?

EDIT: Sorry if this is off topic

 

[blackghost]

If you wne tot evo without anto cyclone knowledge or how your main characters would deal with a stalling villager thats on you. nijalink did a stream on every characters anti stalliger tech, the knowledge of evo's ruleset and potential "problem" characters was months ago. You could of course still lose but Captainwesome doesn't routinely win his local or even make grand finals. MU knowledge is crucial in smash 4. More than likely zero, dabuz, john numbers will knock him out.

 

[NotLiquid]

If the standard top players end up edging out today in finals I think it'll be interesting to evaluate what the customs will have brought to the table. With a lot of customs fear being expressed I'm surprised to see mostly the regular suspects still make it to the top. The most surprising thing as far as I've seen is the seeming complete lack of DK in Top 32 which makes him seem a little bit like a Bowser-esque flavor of the month (even though seeing DK edgeguard a Sheik was complete insanity and makes me want to see him even more). I'm only noticing two Villagers, and while ESAM is rocking a custom Pikachu he could have coasted along with a regular one just fine if his previous placings are of any indication. It feels like the only difference that having HSB will do for him is his capability to dispatch some of the regular top professionals but he's overall worked to uphold his precedent.

I think John Numbers with Wii Fit Trainer seems to so far be the only character in Top 32 who uses a character that overall balances out with customs rather than relying on them as a gimmick. It'd be interesting to see him place high. Bar several of the upsets last night that some people will blame customs on I think that the showing has been solid from everyone involved and it doesn't feel like it's made anything particularly easier, only more varied and interesting.

I really hope the customs meta continues to evolve and be more of a tournament staple. It ended up being a lot more interesting than I expected and I used to be a naysayer of them on principle before I saw them in practice.

 

[blackghost]

I can respect that you can aknowledge you found it interesting. But honestly your quote is a summary of the problem. You never even saw them before evo and you wrote them off. That shouldn't be how the community operates. Looking at commments on reddit and on this board there are gonna be people that (for whatever weak reason they can think of) will blame custom moves for upsets and claim (despite the fact that almost nothing exceptionally jank happened yesterday) customs are bad for the game. I even saw people posting evo went great with customs but they should still go away.

 

[TriTails]

Would that be not knowing the matchup at all then or just a small mistake? Just wondering cause I notice people talking about knowing the matchup a lot on the boards. How much do you have to know to really say or tell that you know the matchup?

EDIT: Sorry if this is off topic

As much as possible. There's no way you can beat Little Mac without knowing his smashes have super armors or the fact that his F-tilt is hard to punish depsite its power. Even then, gimping Little Mac would be troublesome if you don't know he has that lunging counter or the fact Jolt Haymaker can be started early. You'll also be surprised he can angle his Rising Uppercut so he moves diagonally VERY slightly or the fact his D-air spikes or N-air coming out at F2.

Facing against ZeRo? Study the **** out of Sheik and Diddy. Doing so will at least ensure you know what's going on and what's not. This is true for EVERY MU in this game. Don't know how to fight Luigi/Mario/Sheik/Diddy/Rosa/ZSS/Yoshi/Ness/Falcon/etc? Get ready to get wrecked by players who know the MU.

 

[Yoh1]

As much as possible. There's no way you can beat Little Mac without knowing his smashes have super armors or the fact that his F-tilt is hard to punish depsite its power. Even then, gimping Little Mac would be troublesome if you don't know he has that lunging counter or the fact Jolt Haymaker can be started early. You'll also be surprised he can angle his Rising Uppercut so he moves diagonally VERY slightly or the fact his D-air spikes or N-air coming out at F2.

Facing against ZeRo? Study the **** out of Sheik and Diddy. Doing so will at least ensure you know what's going on and what's not. This is true for EVERY MU in this game. Don't know how to fight Luigi/Mario/Sheik/Diddy/Rosa/ZSS/Yoshi/Ness/Falcon/etc? Get ready to get wrecked by players who know the MU.

I see. Thanks.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think customs have a lot less to do with the upsets than the simple fact that this game is still very young. Brawl results weren't particularly consistent in the first year either and Smash 4 is a lot more complex.

 

[NotLiquid]

I can respect that you can aknowledge you found it interesting. But honestly your quote is a summary of the problem. You never even saw them before evo and you wrote them off. That shouldn't be how the community operates. Looking at commments on reddit and on this board there are gonna be people that (for whatever weak reason they can think of) will blame custom moves for upsets and claim (despite the fact that almost nothing exceptionally jank happened yesterday) customs are bad for the game. I even saw people posting evo went great with customs but they should still go away.

In contrast to most games in the FGC much of Smash feels like it's caught in both trappings of specific views on how to play it because it simultaneously is a game caught up in some non-competitive design. To a degree it's hard to hold it against people. For something like Smash it can be really scary to face anything that might upset the established equilibrium. I remember D1 was mostly joking during the Smash 4 Direct stream last April with getting the whole "BANNED" meme off the ground but it's safe to say there was some precedent in the community for that mindset.

I imagine much of Smash 4 is generally "scarier" to have to absorb with all the circumstances surrounding the past of the series and present. Indeed, the game is still incredibly young. Hell we even have to worry about patches. In a sense the process of customs at EVO so far has felt like jumping into a cold pool on a hot summer day. Absorb everything awkward all at once and assure it's steady sailing before too long. It was a really bold move but even with some cramps here and there, I'm glad it seems to have worked out and I hope the finals will end on a good enough note that we can look at them from a positively reinforced perspective.

 

[Djent]

CaptainAwesum hasn't even won his own locals. He is top 32 at EVO. That actually literally speaks volumes about preparedness and familiarity with a given strategy and MU.

I'd normally agree with you RE: local placement, but he's in one of the top two hardest regions in this country. I don't think it's that unusual for a B-league player from NY/NJ/FL to place top 32 at a large tournament.

I still agree that MU familiarity is a huge factor though. CaptAwesum beat Vinnie's Sheik in WF of Smash Attack (he lost GF though, so no local win ). Even if Rain/K9 watched videos, that doesn't beat actual practice against top-level opponents.

 

[blackghost]

I can agree but past smash games have gone through these splits before (with varying results) when wavedashing first appeared in melee people wanted it gone and people wanted metaknight gone. Just examples of the top of my head the showing at evo demonstrated to me that customs (even the good ones) are't auto win moves. HSB in particular was heavily thought to be OP and yersterday i saw zero kills with the move and esam almost died trying to style with it.And the presence of zero DK in top 32 pretty much killed the whole "kong cyclone can't be dealt with" argument.
As long as captin awesome is quickly eliminated, which i think he will be, the overall feeling from anyone using logic and using the evidece we saw should conclude that custom moves aren't toxic to the game.

 

[MajorMajora]

I can agree but past smash games have gone through these splits before (with varying results) when wavedashing first appeared in melee people wanted it gone and people wanted metaknight gone. Just examples of the top of my head the showing at evo demonstrated to me that customs (even the good ones) are't auto win moves. HSB in particular was heavily thought to be OP and yersterday i saw zero kills with the move and esam almost died trying to style with it.And the presence of zero DK in top 32 pretty much killed the whole "kong cyclone can't be dealt with" argument.
As long as captin awesome is quickly eliminated, which i think he will be, the overall feeling from anyone using logic and using the evidece we saw should conclude that custom moves aren't toxic to the game.

Yeah, pretty much this. Honestly, I want to see a custom villager place high in the future, but only once people realize doing so takes skill. Of course, I'm also the type of weirdo who thinks custom villager is super exciting to watch, so...

 

[blackghost]

Yeah, pretty much this. Honestly, I want to see a custom villager place high in the future, but only once people realize doing so takes skill. Of course, I'm also the type of weirdo who thinks custom villager is super exciting to watch, so...

educated players know its not easy to do. Hbox tried to use it and lost in under a minute. I don't hate it. ANYTHING is better than diddy was. I think it requires skill to use but skill doesn't equal fun to watch similiar to most fighting games. I enjoy watch Morgan in umvc 3 so call me wierd too.

 

[Darkmoone1]

Is there any past broadcast that I can watch? Can't seem to find any and I missed the last hour of the first day. =/

 

[Browny]

Bowser Jr seems to be a legitimate answer to custom Villager.

I would have liked to see some sort of implementation of the cannonball and mechakoopa to further help him out although it seemed his sideb was enough to deal with it most of the time.

 

[Tempus]

Regarding customs, exactly how many "objectively bad" players are we seeing that are winning matches due to their customs? I was watching the stream, and the only match with jank customs was Capt Awesome. And frankly, 90% of what he used was the Nair slingshot - over and over again, so many slingshots.

Off stream, there are barely any custom DKs, Pikachus or Villagers in the top 128 bracket. Where are all the people abusing trip sapling, kong cyclone, and heavy skull bash to victory? Even DKWill didn't manage to make top 32, and he's not only "abusing" Kong Cyclone, he's legit really good. The proof is in the pudding, and when only 1 of the players in top 32 are winning through 'abused' customs, it doesn't say customs are abusable, it says that one guy either has skills, got lucky, or both. I mean, we saw way way way more people riding to the top brackets on Diddy's Hoohah than we are seeing now on any custom.

There's no way to tell for sure until the full brackets are updated, but right now we have one single outlier. Let's hold off on judgements until we see for sure how many off stream peoples rolled out of pools based on the strength of a custom move alone.

 

[outfoxd]

Regarding customs, exactly how many "objectively bad" players are we seeing that are winning matches due to their customs? I was watching the stream, and the only match with jank customs was Capt Awesome. And frankly, 90% of what he used was the Nair slingshot - over and over again, so many slingshots.

Off stream, there are barely any custom DKs, Pikachus or Villagers in the top 128 bracket. Where are all the people abusing trip sapling, kong cyclone, and heavy skull bash to victory? Even DKWill didn't manage to make top 32, and he's not only "abusing" Kong Cyclone, he's legit really good. The proof is in the pudding, and when only 1 of the players in top 32 are winning through 'abused' customs, it doesn't say customs are abusable, it says that one guy either has skills, got lucky, or both. I mean, we say way way way more people riding to the top brackets on Diddy's Hoohah than we are seeing now on any custom.

There's no way to tell for sure until the full brackets are updated, but right now we have one single outlier. Let's hold off on judgements until we see for sure how many off stream peoples rolled out of pools based on the strength of a custom move alone.

In this game, apparently all it takes is one.

Like i said, I'm half expecting Numbers' win to be ranted about.

 

[thehard]

Just noticed not-John Numbers knocked out Will

Custom WFT > Custom DK

 

[Teshie U]

Bowser Jr seems to be a legitimate answer to custom Villager.

I would have liked to see some sort of implementation of the cannonball and mechakoopa to further help him out although it seemed his sideb was enough to deal with it most of the time.

Having a brain is a legitimate answer to custom villager.

Side B going over the sapling and explosives (giant mechakoopa is ideal here) are nice bonuses, but Jr isn't some ideal counter to Villager. Tweek just isn't deterred from approaching and being clever and optimal for punishes. Thats why he is THE bowser jr.


As for "objectively bad" people winning. The same could be said about any other brain dead tactic that invalidates characters (roll around with banana, spam needles) or require thoughtful counterplay.

 

[Firefoxx]

Just so everyone knows, MJG doesn't run the full planking villager set. Just trip sapling. And he used it to enhance his largely in your face playstyle. Sorry if someone has already mentioned this, I'm on mobile so I may have just missed it. Just wanted to make sure a really cool player doesn't get bad mouthed because his character gets a bad rap

 

[Asdioh]

Just so everyone knows, MJG doesn't run the full planking villager set. Just trip sapling. And he used it to enhance his largely in your face playstyle. Sorry if someone has already mentioned this, I'm on mobile so I may have just missed it. Just wanted to make sure a really cool player doesn't get bad mouthed because his character gets a bad rap

I'm pretty sure I saw exploding balloons there.
Also, C.Awesum is actually pretty good, so it's not like he doesn't know how the game works and blindly gets through on customs, lol.

I could name a bunch of things as jank/more jank than customs, such as Fox's Jab, Sheik's needles/Fair, Diddy's Banana, Rosalina's everything, etc but people don't want to listen. Can we just watch the rest of evo and be smart people?

edit: also Kirby is bad, and I predicted no Kirbys would make top 32 and apparently I was right? So much for that "underrated" character :3

 

[Firefoxx]

I'm pretty sure I saw exploding balloons there.
Also, C.Awesum is actually pretty good, so it's not like he doesn't know how the game works and blindly gets through on customs, lol.

I could name a bunch of things as jank/more jank than customs, such as Fox's Jab, Sheik's needles/Fair, Diddy's Banana, Rosalina's everything, etc but people don't want to listen. Can we just watch the rest of evo and be smart people?

edit: also Kirby is bad, and I predicted no Kirbys would make top 32 and apparently I was right? So much for that "underrated" character :3

Maybe I wasn't looking close enough (and I remember being shocked that he might not be using them) but his playstyle is vastly different than Captain Awesum's. Though if he did plank in top 32 I wouldn't blame him cause flags fly forever