EVO 2018 Discussion Thread for Smash 4

[ThatGuyWhoKnowsNothing]

People keep saying this is a problem that needs to be addressed, but how do we address it? how do we fix this? First, we need to find the root of the problem, which I'm going to heavily oversimplify by saying everyone done goofed. The community was acting poorly, and CaptianZack and Lima could have handled it better. SO what do we do? I think we rally around something, some sort of banner, or someone who exemplifies the problem, (#freedabuz ? he arguably gets the most combined crap for character and playstyle. Just throwing it out there) and use the rallying cry to teach/help the community and top players handle these kinds of situations. It won't work for everyone, but at least we can say we tried, and the people it does help will have a positive effect on the scene as a whole. I really don't know, I'm just spitballing

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

People keep saying this is a problem that needs to be addressed, but how do we address it? how do we fix this? First, we need to find the root of the problem, which I'm going to heavily oversimplify by saying everyone done goofed. The community was acting poorly, and CaptianZack and Lima could have handled it better. SO what do we do? I think we rally around something, some sort of banner, or someone who exemplifies the problem, (#freedabuz ? he arguably gets the most combined crap for character and playstyle. Just throwing it out there) and use the rallying cry to teach/help the community and top players handle these kinds of situations. It won't work for everyone, but at least we can say we tried, and the people it does help will have a positive effect on the scene as a whole. I really don't know, I'm just spitballing

I mean, I know this is the last thing a lot of people want to hear, but if they had banned Bayo, it would have been addressed already and this would have never happened.

But too little too late.

(Yo Nintendo Direct 3 days from now lets go)

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I think presuming there won't be any serious balance flaws and that Ultimate won't repeat this is well-intended but naive.

Sakurai can't possibly catch every balance issue out of the gate. There are times where he's legit unaware of a problem and it takes a LOT of effort to bring it to his attention since he's very busy and isn't focusing on tournament-level play as his primary interest anyway (his stance has generally been "don't forget the beginner" or words to that effect).

Even if he did, once we discover who's top tier, that character will receive bandwagon-hate. It is the nature of crowds to do this.

So I don't think it's a good idea to presume the problem will go away.

Instead... 'ThatGuyWhoKnowsNothing' is actually on to something. And part of the solution is simply trying! Get the message out at all. Raise the topic. Get TOs to talk about it, get top players to talk about it, get Smashboards authors to write about it (that last part won't reach as many viewers as the first two, but it'll help all the same). The message has to be "We cannot harass our players like this, and we need to decide on consistent standards for when to ban a character or tell the audience to Git Gud and show them how to develop the mindset of developing counters to popular characters."

Just having the discussion is going to help. The crowd needs to get their expectations calibrated, rulesmakers need to figure out whether lines need to be drawn, and top players need to be able to support one another when incidents like this occur. So long as any one group feels isolated and vulnerable, this won't work. So everyone (or at least large swathes of each demographic) need to feel like their concerns are understood and that what they expect of the other groups is realistic.

 

[aarchak]

It's time, Smash Direct gonna be hype

 

[ThatGuyWhoKnowsNothing]

I mean, I know this is the last thing a lot of people want to hear, but if they had banned Bayo, it would have been addressed already and this would have never happened.

But too little too late.

I understand, but as you mentioned, It's too late, this is no longer a viable solution, and the smash scene hasn't had the experience to know how to handle O.P characters, we've had 2, (Or three, depending on how you count doubles cloud) ban worthy characters, and our final decision was inaction, which hurt more than even deciding not to ban characters would have

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

you can have the perfect game and the smash 4 community would still ruin things for the worse, the smash 4 community is simply too immature, there wasn't a time in smash 4 competitive life without drama, hell smash 4 dying was a popular word since the very beginning of the competitive life of this game, the problem was that the own community didn't grown and didn't really worked together to make this game a good place to be in.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I understand, but as you mentioned, It's too late, this is no longer a viable solution, and the smash scene hasn't had the experience to know how to handle O.P characters, we've had 2, (Or three, depending on how you count doubles cloud) ban worthy characters, and our final decision was inaction, which hurt more than even deciding not to ban characters would have

Well it's actually quite simple from here on out.

If ultimate continues the exact same problems as we saw in Sm4sh, and Nintendo appears inactive in their own balancing efforts to solve the problem, the community has to take it into their own hands. Inactivity was attempted and it resulted in the biggest **** show of a GF Evo has ever seen

 

[EMT~]

I mean, I know this is the last thing a lot of people want to hear, but if they had banned Bayo, it would have been addressed already and this would have never happened.

But too little too late.

(Yo Nintendo Direct 3 days from now lets go)

I'm actually going to have to disagree with this. Data tends to establish that Bayo isn't good enough to ban on an objective dominance level, so the main reason to ban her is in response to the community complaints, under the logic that the community will calm down. But, banning her for that reason simply validates the community's more toxic elements. Then, the community moves on to the next big thing to hate, and nothing changes. Or worse, with extra fervor because they know that their complaints may lead to a ban like it previously did.

EDIT: To address the original question...

People keep saying this is a problem that needs to be addressed, but how do we address it? how do we fix this? First, we need to find the root of the problem, which I'm going to heavily oversimplify by saying everyone done goofed. The community was acting poorly, and CaptianZack and Lima could have handled it better. SO what do we do? I think we rally around something, some sort of banner, or someone who exemplifies the problem, (#freedabuz ? he arguably gets the most combined crap for character and playstyle. Just throwing it out there) and use the rallying cry to teach/help the community and top players handle these kinds of situations. It won't work for everyone, but at least we can say we tried, and the people it does help will have a positive effect on the scene as a whole. I really don't know, I'm just spitballing

Part of me blames a culture created by the presence of patches.

As an example, I'll bring up DotA 2. That game gets a TON of patches, to balance the heroes out and change the meta in an almost cyclic manner. And yet, anyone who has played that game knows that complaints about the heroes abound. The complaints about different heroes have been there for years, neverending. And it's a level of toxicity thats similar to that we're seeing here in the Sm4sh community. Now, let's compare that to Melee. Melee clearly has some balance issues, between Fox and, more notably, the low tiers being absolute garbage. And yet, people don't complain about that game nearly as much. In part, I think this is because Melee never had had a chance to foster the culture that patches can bring - the game was only patched once, and the patched version is only used in Europe to boot. So the players had to adapt to the unbalanced elements instead, because there wasn't a chance of consistent patches fixing the things they took issue with.

I don't support leaving blatantly OP or broken elements in games, but I do think the existence of patches, to some extent, has contributed to the toxicity present in Sm4sh. The existence of patches demotes the importance of adapting to elements you don't like because, hey, why bother when patches might change it anyway?

So the solution? I can't say for sure. But, I do think the community needs to focus less on complaining about things they don't like and focus more on fighting those things they don't like. That is, we need to switch back to the mindset of old, when patches weren't an option and adapting to the things we hated was the norm.

 

[aarchak]

you can have the perfect game and the smash 4 community would still ruin things for the worse, the smash 4 community is simply too immature, there wasn't a time in smash 4 competitive life without drama, hell smash 4 dying was a popular word since the very beginning of the competitive life of this game, the problem was that the own community didn't grown and didn't really worked together to make this game a good place to be in.

I think there needs to be a concerted effort from everyone to put a stop to this toxicity. This sort of this thing is unacceptable and it needs to stop.

Also congrats to Leffen for winning EVO 2018.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I'm actually going to have to disagree with this. Data tends to establish that Bayo isn't good enough to ban on an objective dominance level, so the main reason to ban her is in response to the community complaints, under the logic that the community will calm down. But, banning her for that reason simply validates the community's more toxic elements. Then, the community moves on to the next big thing to hate, and nothing changes. Or worse, with extra fervor because they know that their complaints may lead to a ban like it previously did.

Would the Sm4sh community had been perfectly behaved and the tournament would have gone one with no drama? History tells us no.

But I personally believe the level of toxicity (on both audience and player's part) we got yesterday would not have happened in the circumstance of Bayo not being there. This situation was specifically caused by Bayo.

 

[Fell God]

I'm sorry, but this is a bit too optimistic. Just because Bayonetta is nerfed, doesn't mean the community won't find someone to hate. Don't forget about prepatch Diddy, Sonic with old back throw, old Luigi cyclone, Little Mac on FG before people learned how to fight him, Rosalina forever, etc. The issues with Bayo are ultimately a community problem, as others have said; and they won't be fixed unless the community fixes itself.

Tr4sh is essentially just Ultimate's beta anyway, now that they understand how to competitively balance the game, there shouldn't be any absurdly powerful OP characters like Bayonetta. Yes, the best character will always be hated, but look at Melee Fox and 64 Pikachu, they're the best but they're not so much better than the rest of the cast that they actively damage the competitive scene the way Brawl MK and SSB4 Bayonetta do. Smash 4 would have been balanced without her and Cloud being added (or at least not being as blatantly OP as they inarguably are). Forget Smash 4, it's done for. Ultimate will be balanced, it will be perfect, and Bayonetta will not be assaulting the meta the way she does now. That's all I have to say. No one can or will change my mind, and I won't change anyone else's. Just believe in Sakurai.

 

[Garo]

I'm all for knocking institutions down a peg by not treating them like the big deal they think they are, and I feel Zack and Lima had the right of that after how they'd been treated. Still, if I were into the competitive scene, I would be kind of worried about how this may affect the reputation of Smash community as a whole.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Would the Sm4sh community had been perfectly behaved and the tournament would have gone one with no drama? History tells us no.

But I personally believe the level of toxicity (on both audience and player's part) we got yesterday would not have happened in the circumstance of Bayo not being there. This situation was specifically caused by Bayo.

If this situation was causes by bayo fox would have the same effect

 

[lmntolp]

Tr4sh is essentially just Ultimate's beta anyway, now that they understand how to competitively balance the game, there shouldn't be any absurdly powerful OP characters like Bayonetta. Yes, the best character will always be hated, but look at Melee Fox and 64 Pikachu, they're the best but they're not so much better than the rest of the cast that they actively damage the competitive scene the way Brawl MK and SSB4 Bayonetta do. Smash 4 would have been balanced without her and Cloud being added (or at least not being as blatantly OP as they inarguably are). Forget Smash 4, it's done for. Ultimate will be balanced, it will be perfect, and Bayonetta will not be assaulting the meta the way she does now. That's all I have to say. No one can or will change my mind, and I won't change anyone else's. Just believe in Sakurai.

I agree and I think Sm4sh might have even been balanced with Cloud and Bayonetta if they released 1 or 2 more patches. But instead they only had a chance to nerf Bayo once, which wasn't enough. I hope Nintendo learns and dev support doesn't end right after the DLC is released in ultimate, but that might be optimistic.

 

[Ordeaux26]

I agree and I think Sm4sh might have even been balanced with Cloud and Bayonetta if they released 1 or 2 more patches. But instead they only had a chance to nerf Bayo once, which wasn't enough. I hope Nintendo learns and dev support doesn't end right after the DLC is released in ultimate, but that might be optimistic.

Smash 4 is still a relatively well balanced game it's not perfect but we do see a wide representation of characters even low tiers get representation

 

[lmntolp]

Smash 4 is still a relatively well balanced game it's not perfect but we do see a wide representation of characters even low tiers get representation

Oh it's definitely more balanced than the other mainline smash games. I think the issue is that a bunch of people just don't like watching Bayo in games, so she could've at least been reworked to emphasize her specials less. I think she's potentially fine in ultimate as she is too, but the bad stigma will stay whether it's justified or not unfortunately.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Just believe in Sakurai.

I do believe in Sakurai. Here's the thing, though: He is a human being with human fallacies and human limits on how much information he can process. Human limits on how much time he can devote to each issue in the game. Human limits to how many testers he can deploy to experiment with matchups and find problems in the game balance.

Sakurai is an absolutely amazing game designer and producer. He has literally hurt himself trying to make games that he hopes will make us happy. I hold him in the highest regard for this, but I do not elevate him to the level of some perfect god who will get everything absolutely right.

Smash Ultimate will ship with balance oversights. The game has, what, somewhere around 65-70 characters (rounding up to account for possible unrevealed newcomers)? That is an awful lot of matchups to balance, you're asking how each character performs in a 1 on 1 mirror match as well as 1 on 1 matches against the other 64-69 characters.

It is simply impossible for Sakurai to get every single balance issue. Stop expecting the impossible of him, and start having reasonable discussions about a problem facing the Smash community.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Tr4sh is essentially just Ultimate's beta anyway, now that they understand how to competitively balance the game, there shouldn't be any absurdly powerful OP characters like Bayonetta. Yes, the best character will always be hated, but look at Melee Fox and 64 Pikachu, they're the best but they're not so much better than the rest of the cast that they actively damage the competitive scene the way Brawl MK and SSB4 Bayonetta do. Smash 4 would have been balanced without her and Cloud being added (or at least not being as blatantly OP as they inarguably are). Forget Smash 4, it's done for. Ultimate will be balanced, it will be perfect, and Bayonetta will not be assaulting the meta the way she does now. That's all I have to say. No one can or will change my mind, and I won't change anyone else's. Just believe in Sakurai.

Using tr4sh unironically is like the perfect example of was is wrong with this community, the smash 4 "players" really likes to insult their own game, not only that, this mentality that the next version will make things better by default without the community and their players working together to growth the scene, and simply bailing out when something is wrong, because "X" thing in the game isn't perfect and there another game in the horizon really demostrates where the problem of smash 4 lies, and really is not in the game.

 

[Fell God]

Using tr4sh unironically is like the perfect example of was is wrong with this community, the smash 4 "players" really likes to insult their own game, not only that, this mentality that the next version will make things better by default without the community and their players working together to growth the scene, and simply bailing out when something is wrong, because "X" thing in the game isn't perfect and there another game in the horizon really demostrates where the problem of smash 4 lies, and really is not in the game.

Can't forcibly change people buddy, Bayonetta was the problem. You guys can go ahead and listen to Mr. Street Fighter here preach, but you simply can't change people by telling them to change. Complaining about the community won't change the community, it will never change, best to just accept it as it is and disassociate with them like I do, none of what you guys are patting each other on the back over on this thread will change anything. And again, as long as the best characters aren't massively OP, they won't get as much hate. Anyway, I'm done with this thread because I don't really enjoy debating in general, but especially not when it gets heated, and as I said before, no one's mind is getting changed.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Can't forcibly change people buddy, Bayonetta was the problem. You guys can go ahead and listen to Mr. Street Fighter here preach, but you simply can't change people by telling them to change. Complaining about the community won't change the community, it will never change, best to just accept it as it is and disassociate with them like I do, none of what you guys are patting each other on the back over on this thread will change anything. And again, as long as the best characters aren't massively OP, they won't get as much hate. Anyway, I'm done with this thread because I don't really enjoy debating in general, but especially not when it gets heated, and as I said before, no one's mind is getting changed.

Isn´t about changing people, is about teaching people, both players, viewers and TO so these mistakes doesn't repeat in ultimate like brawl, or smash 4.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Is there a dislike button on Smashboards?

There is. It's called "Click Reply, write what you don't like about the post." Takes some effort if you're doing it right instead of just going "hurr hurr Tr4sh hurr hurr me so witty", but it works pretty well if one puts in the time.

Can't forcibly change people buddy,

You can make the attempt, though. Watching what happened last night and just presuming it won't happen again is absolutely silly.

Bayonetta was the problem.

Bayonetta, based on the discussion we've had here, appears to be PART OF the problem. Nobody here has seriously put forth any claim that Bayonetta is so broken as to be on par with Super Turbo Akuma or MMPR Ivan Ooze or so on, so I'm presuming it's not just a matter of raw character power; something else is afoot here.

You guys can go ahead and listen to Mr. Street Fighter here preach

You could benefit from learning from the Street Fighter community's mistakes. We can save you guys a lot of R&D time on figuring out how to fix this, because we've been here before. Seriously; we've done some really, really stupid **** over the years and watching the Smash community do it now is... well, a bit distressing.

, but you simply can't change people by telling them to change. Complaining about the community won't change the community, it will never change, best to just accept it as it is and

And what, admit defeat? Declare your community and game unsalvageable? Place your faith in The Great Sakurai to balance over a thousand possible matchups so well that this problem won't repeat itself?

This is absolutely silly. What happened last night was preventable, and needs to be fixed. Engage your community and influence them. It won't happen overnight, but it will eventually improve. You'll convince a handful of people at a time, you'll shift the narrative and what topics are discussed, and things will get better.

People need to figure out where the line between 'actually overpowered and needs a ban' versus 'very powerful and needs a counter-meta developed' is. That's a discussion that needs to happen, so you don't wind up with an absolute embarrassment of a grand-finals that has likely burned a lot of bridges with companies who were previously sympathetic or at least tolerant of competitive Smash.

 

[Nobie]

People need to learn how to appreciate play styles and character styles that aren't their favorites.

Yes, people have the option to cheer whoever they want, or to watch or not watch a game. But they could look at something like Bayonetta and try to find something worth watching or thinking about her. Because as much as people claim that she's some degenerate character, there are a lot of interesting facets to her design that guys like Tweek try to explain. But if your appreciation for Bayonetta or any other character is seeing them get destroyed, then I don't know what to say.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Can't forcibly change people buddy, Bayonetta was the problem. You guys can go ahead and listen to Mr. Street Fighter here preach, but you simply can't change people by telling them to change. Complaining about the community won't change the community, it will never change, best to just accept it as it is and disassociate with them like I do, none of what you guys are patting each other on the back over on this thread will change anything. And again, as long as the best characters aren't massively OP, they won't get as much hate. Anyway, I'm done with this thread because I don't really enjoy debating in general, but especially not when it gets heated, and as I said before, no one's mind is getting changed.

People like you are the problem with the Smash 4 community.

A strange combination of giving up hope and removing personal responsibility while also preaching down to people who have experience.

Your viewpoint makes everything ten times more difficult and needs to be thrown away.

 

[Fell God]

People like you are the problem with the Smash 4 community.

A strange combination of giving up hope and removing personal responsibility while also preaching down to people who have experience.

Your viewpoint makes everything ten times more difficult and needs to be thrown away.

I said I was done with this thread, but let me make something clear. I'm not part of the "Smash 4 community", I'm not giving up hope about anything, and no "experience" you're talking about matters to anyone except people who take these things far too seriously. My views are my own, I don't partake in any community, I'm just here for the ride. If you're looking for someone to witch hunt, look for someone who cares about the community. And stop taking this stuff so seriously, honestly you guys are getting so heated just because I'm not part of your little hivemind. Now goodbye, and stop quoting me, I'm not interested in flame wars, I've seen enough of those for a lifetime.

 

[IsmaR]

Singling people out/continuing this particular argument will receive infractions from here on out.

I don't care if you're "part of the community" or not. You come in here calling it Tr4sh from start, you're literally asking for everything that comes your way.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

With that out of the way, let's explore another question: What does this solution I speak of actually look like? Well, it's a lot of things... but they're all facets of the same basic idea: Communicate.

The community needs to talk with each other about some things, such as...

How do you feel about large, sponsored venues? If companies and tournament organizers are going to shell out money to help you organize majors, do you have any obligations to them if you attend their events? If so, what are those obligations? Do you actually want these large companies and venues, along with their accompanying standards, involved? The trend so far says 'yes', and I'm pretty sure the community actually does... but they need to figure this out for certain and learn how to work with these entities.

What makes a character banworthy? Where is the line drawn, how soon do you determine it, and how do you enforce it? This has come up a few times over the years. Brawl Meta Knight is the obvious example, but now we have Bayonetta showing a more polarizing incident. The Mii Fighters are a lesser example of this kind of thing, but they're far less so since they haven't caused any major incidents like what happened last night at Evo.

The community needs to be introduced to this narrative. Whatever you guys decide about character bans, you've got to get your rank and file onboard with this. Fortunately, this is more time-consuming than actually difficult. You just have to talk about it. Bring it up with Tournament Organizers. Have them speak out about it. Have top players speak about it too. The common player and spectator won't think about it terribly much until you introduce it to their thought process by actually mentioning it. TOs, opinion leaders, and top players have an incredible ability to frame and guide the narrative this way. Use it for good purposes.

TOs need to make clear that harassing players is unacceptable, and enforce it. Talk about it on your social media pages. Make an example or two by tossing someone out for violating the rule. People will catch on quickly.

Top players and opinion leaders can help by showing where they draw the line on a character. In the Street Fighter community, our metrics for bans are Super Turbo Akuma and 3rd Strike Gill; they do things that other characters simply cannot mount a coherent response to, and we are careful to explain why they're a problem. ST Akuma and 3S Gill are our lines in the sand, and we're very clear to our fellow players that anyone falling short of their standard of 'overpowered' will generally be allowed to run as-is and you had better develop some counter-plays to them because while it's possible the devs will nerf them in a patch you cannot count on it.

Talk about it on your streams. You have tons of players tuning in to watch you play, so you have an audience. Have this conversation with them during the matchmaking queue, during breaks, things like that. Encourage them to step up and suggest ideas on how to deal with various parts of a character's kit. Is there something you can do about X or Y move that Bayonetta (or any character in controversy) has? Get them working on discussing how to defeat it rather than complain about it. It promotes viewer participation (which is good for you!) and changes the narrative from what we saw last night... to trying to deal with the problem directly.

Who knows, maybe the character really is too good and deserves a ban... but right now, what's needed is a shift in narrative and mentality rather than banning a specific character. Without this shift, you're going to wind up at this same problem again in 4 months when Smash Ultimate comes out.

So please, go forth and communicate. Express things. Explain things. Introduce new points to the conversation, shift it to go where you want it to go. It will take time, but it can be done and will be worth it.

 

[GreenKirby]

Considering the toxicity of the Smash community, it was the match the community long deserved.

I mean sending death threats to teenagers or making a blatantly racist statement by hoping they get deported to a war torn country.

If anything, hopefully bringing this into the light will make the community grow up the heck up.

But knowing gaming culture.... probably just double down on the idiocy.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Good grief. Death threats? That's absurd. All the more reason to get this situation under control...

 

[lmntolp]

Top players and opinion leaders can help by showing where they draw the line on a character.

What would you say about bans based on things other than power? Like how games involving the best characters go for the players and spectators. As an extreme example, if the strongest character in Melee was Ice Climbers with their guaranteed grab to death combos, I would guess the entire game would've been much less popular, even if the 2nd place character was close behind and even if the meta developed to counter them.

Bayo is an analogous case where you can get a kill combo with limited interaction even at low percentages. Based on results that she isn't anywhere near ST Akuma level OP, has counterplay and can be defeated, but viewers still don't like those matches because the counter play itself could be boring. One example is ESAM thunder jolt camping with Pikachu due to Bayo's imperfect approach options.

Not saying Bayo should be banned, but this would bring up a question of is it worth it to ban a character for making the game a worse spectator sport or less fun to play, even if they're not grossly OP? That would be very subjective so it's hard to draw a line in the sand, unless that line is defined as Bayo lol.

That being said, I don't hate playing against Bayo or watching Bayo games, and I believe there are issues of misinformation and bias about Bayo, both with her power level and with people thinking she's "braindead".

The community needs to be introduced to this narrative.

Yea this sounds like the most important first step, as long as it's done without sounding condescending or ignoring the larger community's side. It seems to me like there's a lack of trust between these groups and the overall community so far. It'll take some time to build that trust.

Talk about it on your streams

Imo the commentators and certain pros were already doing a pretty good job talking about how you could SDI/DI out of Bayo combos in certain situations or pick certain characters, but here I think trust issues currently get in the way. Viewers might believe that commentators are artificially toning down the character's issues because they have a vested interest in hyping up the stream. And like I mentioned above, the existence of counterplay might not convince viewers that Bayo games are fun to watch.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

People need to learn how to appreciate play styles and character styles that aren't their favorites.

Yes, people have the option to cheer whoever they want, or to watch or not watch a game. But they could look at something like Bayonetta and try to find something worth watching or thinking about her. Because as much as people claim that she's some degenerate character, there are a lot of interesting facets to her design that guys like Tweek try to explain. But if your appreciation for Bayonetta or any other character is seeing them get destroyed, then I don't know what to say.

Yes! People need to learn to enjoy playstyles that don't conform to what they are used to. I think people like tweek as you mentioned and other top players, as well as commentators and YouTubers alike, just need to be more vocal about Bayo. Talking about everything, from whether she should be banned to strats and counter-strats. I know we talked a lot about whether she should be banned, but we didn't leave it the right way, apparently.

My views are my own, I don't partake in any community, I'm just here for the ride.

Awesome! Can you please go ride in the back seat, then? We can kinda hear you mumble to yourself from over here...

 

[Pegasus Knight]

What would you say about bans based on things other than power? (Excellent example about Ice Climbers hypothetical here)

That's a really good question to consider, so let's talk about the factors that would influence this hypothetical situation. Without any outside interference, I think you'd find both the audience and players walk. Why play if you have a game that degenerate and boring, even if it's balanced? However, there are external factors. Sense of community is one, and more compellingly... prize money. If you could pick up a paycheck running these hypothetical 'balanced but astonishingly boring' Ice Climbers, why wouldn't you? Money can prop up a bad situation in gaming.

Bayo is an analogous case where you can get a kill combo with limited interaction even at low percentages. (Goes on to explain examples between Bayonetta vs. Pikachu)

...You're raising a good point, and it's one I don't have a perfect answer for, but... I'll keep it in mind as you move to your next question.

Not saying Bayo should be banned, but this would bring up a question of is it worth it to ban a character for making the game a worse spectator sport or less fun to play, even if they're not grossly OP?

This requires weighing a lot of factors. Is the game viable enough as a spectator sport if we fix this, to be worth the ban? Is it worth that significant ding to the Playing To Win philosophy that otherwise guides us in fighting game tournaments?

Can we fix it some other way? For example, can we present clear evidence to the game's developer/publisher that there's a problem here but it can be fixed and doing so will help the long-term health of the game? I know, this chafes the old-school sensibility of "Don't whine for nerfs; ADAPT, GIT GUD." I'm sympathetic to that viewpoint up to a point, but the question really has to be asked: "Is compromising a little bit on this worth the gains in other aspects of the game's competitive scene?"

I am not qualified to answer that for the Smash community. I can raise the question in response to your excellent question, but I'm sure as hell not the person to answer them for you.

Imo the commentators and certain pros were already doing a pretty good job talking about how you could SDI/DI out of Bayo combos in certain situations or pick certain characters, but here I think trust issues currently get in the way. Viewers might believe that commentators are artificially toning down the character's issues because they have a vested interest in hyping up the stream. And like I mentioned above, the existence of counterplay might not convince viewers that Bayo games are fun to watch.

...Yeah... yeah. I don't have a perfect answer here either. Nonetheless, these people are in a special position to control the narrative and frame the topics that get discussed. Think about how TV news works; do you think about various topics in economics, politics, the job market, and so on without some kind of prompting? Do you think about certain buzzword issues before someone in the media prompts you to do so? For some people, the answer is "Yes, I do think outside that sphere." Yet even they at least have to spend some 'mental bandwidth' processing the idea put before them and decide whether to ignore it or not.

Streamers, top players, Smashboards writers, TOs, and those with popular Smash social media accounts are in that same position of being able to really drive what gets discussed. Right now, I think the two-fold concern of "We need to figure out how to deal with these kind of Character issues" and "we need to cut down on harassment so a repeat of Evo 2018 doesn't happen" are things that should be on the Smash community's 'airwaves.'

A strong PR push can at least help alleviate these issues, and I think it's worth doing. We're at a point where players are receiving death threats, serial harassment at majors, and in response they're turning majors into jokes. That's a good sign that this needs to be fixed.

 

[SvartWolf]

I'm kinda.. sick of this harassement culture gamers seem to love. and probably the worst part is when they tend to be so self entitled that they can't even accept responsability.

Bayo is not the problem. yeah, i get it, you don't like her, but being THE problem? then why this was still a problem with pre patch Diddy? or Rosalina? there wasn't any sight of bayo then. Obviously wasn't as bad before... but is the problem casue Bayo/Cloud came? or did it got worst cause it simply was left unchecked until this harass harass stuff got worse?

I mean.. is the problem that an underage person didn't acted correctly toward harassement? should we enforce then age restriction? is it even gonna matter? yeah, not defending what these guys did up there, and apologies are in order, but apologies towards evo staff, towards sponsors, but the fact that someone doesn't react well towards people throwing vitriol doesn't make people throwing vitriol innocent. I don't think the community are owed an apology, and is something that need to be adressed. Player hate is simply unnacceptable, end of story.

If this simply doesn't get adressed is a guarantee is gonna permeate to Ultimate, and I don't think bayo will be a problem in Ultimate. This is not an inherent SMASH problem, mind you , but that doesn't means we are extempt of the responsability of adressing it.

obviously, big words coming from me who isn't actually an active member of the community nor actually have a fanbase towards i can "preach" or any other real measure. but at least i do feel ashamed of this, even if i didn't actively hated anyone, or even any character. ._.

 

[Makai Wars]

It is simply impossible for Sakurai to get every single balance issue. Stop expecting the impossible of him, and start having reasonable discussions about a problem facing the Smash community.

So you're saying we should have just banned Bayonetta then right?

 

[Pegasus Knight]

So you're saying we should have just banned Bayonetta then right?

No, that's not what I said.

What I said is that might be one possible solution to explore, but before you go to that lengths the community should work this through and figure out where their consistent line is drawn for a ban, what they gain from it, what they lose from it. I said the Smash community should figure out where a character becomes a genuine problem, and where they're just more appropriately handled by saying "Let's develop counters to this character's tactics."

My answer to this problem was not a binary yes/no thing, because there are lots of things going on that require some degree of nuance in order to be answered. My answer was 'you should start seriously talking this through as a community and figure it out.'

 

[LancerStaff]

I’m pretty darned certain it’s a Smash fanbase problem. That’s not to say there aren’t toxic fanbases outside of Smash, but...

Patches didn’t cause this. Splatoon for example has had very heavy balance shifts following patches, aka largely top tier nerfs, and you don’t see the endless name calling and other garbage just because you see the same special in a minimum of 3/8 slots in any given match. There are calls for nerfs yes but nothing nearly as hateful or toxic as Smash ever was.

Smash’s relative youth didn’t cause this. Competitive Splatoon attracts an even younger crowd because it’s centralized online. Still not half as immature and stupid as the Smash fanbase.

The Smash Fanbase’s size didn’t cause this. Pokémon is undeniably bigger than Smash and at minimum more welcoming for competitive play, and you don’t hear of any **** from them.

The crux of the matter is the Smash fanbase’s want to prove everything to everybody at the same time. To prove that such and such character is good. To prove it’s bad. To prove it’s in the game. To prove it’s fake. To prove some sort of bias, or the lack thereof. To prove that we should use one rule or another. To prove that stages should be banned or kept. To prove it’s not a port. And most of all the want to prove to each other, to prove to the FGC, to prove to Nintendo and even Sakurai himself that Smash is supposed to be competitive. Even if any number of these things are at odds with each other or hardcore facts.

The Smash fanbase is the most immature, cult-like, whinny, biased, corrupt, nonsensical, delusional, hypocritical, pathetic, morally bankrupt, inconsistent, desperate, **** sucking, close-minded and physically putrid fanbase I have ever had the misfortune of being associated with.

I think it’s time to own up and let go. Maybe Bayo isn’t actually oppressive. Maybe Melee isn’t that great. Maybe the leak was fake all along. Maybe your friend is a ****ty mod. Maybe your character is ass. Maybe the hard data can’t be ignored. Maybe it’s supposed to be a party game first and foremost. But most importantly, maybe, just MAYBE people won’t just go and rot in hell just because you told them to.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Previous Smash games were never designed solely for competitive play. The very style of the game making it impossible to perfectly balance (by having so many characters that are so drastically different in so many ways).

That's why tiers were created by the community but only after months and even years of extensive, high level playing (results from game testing that Sakurai and his team could never have achieved).


Ultimate seems to be the exception, from what i've heard and seen so far, a lot characters have the potential to be high and top tier. Which is great for the competitive stage and even for 'casual' competitive play.

Concerning Bayonetta, small adjustments (if done well) will make a long way.

No need to ban any character when you can adjust them.

I’m pretty darned certain it’s a Smash fanbase problem. That’s not to say there aren’t toxic fanbases outside of Smash, but...

Patches didn’t cause this. Splatoon for example has had very heavy balance shifts following patches, aka largely top tier nerfs, and you don’t see the endless name calling and other garbage just because you see the same special in a minimum of 3/8 slots in any given match. There are calls for nerfs yes but nothing nearly as hateful or toxic as Smash ever was.

Smash’s relative youth didn’t cause this. Competitive Splatoon attracts an even younger crowd because it’s centralized online. Still not half as immature and stupid as the Smash fanbase.

The Smash Fanbase’s size didn’t cause this. Pokémon is undeniably bigger than Smash and at minimum more welcoming for competitive play, and you don’t hear of any **** from them.

The crux of the matter is the Smash fanbase’s want to prove everything to everybody at the same time. To prove that such and such character is good. To prove it’s bad. To prove it’s in the game. To prove it’s fake. To prove some sort of bias, or the lack thereof. To prove that we should use one rule or another. To prove that stages should be banned or kept. To prove it’s not a port. And most of all the want to prove to each other, to prove to the FGC, to prove to Nintendo and even Sakurai himself that Smash is supposed to be competitive. Even if any number of these things are at odds with each other or hardcore facts.

The Smash fanbase is the most immature, cult-like, whinny, biased, corrupt, nonsensical, delusional, hypocritical, pathetic, morally bankrupt, inconsistent, desperate, **** sucking, close-minded and physically putrid fanbase I have ever had the misfortune of being associated with.

I think it’s time to own up and let go. Maybe Bayo isn’t actually oppressive. Maybe Melee isn’t that great. Maybe the leak was fake all along. Maybe your friend is a ****ty mod. Maybe your character is ***. Maybe the hard data can’t be ignored. Maybe it’s supposed to be a party game first and foremost. But most importantly, maybe, just MAYBE people won’t just go and rot in hell just because you told them to.

The fanbase here and in competitive play seems pretty civilised and just passionate about the games... maybe you ran into the worst but it's no reason to generalize.

 

[Routa]

Like others have said there isn't really one cause behind all of this. But let's focus on Bayonetta for a moment. And I will only talk what I have seen, heard and dealt with as a player, spectator and as a TO.
From a player perspective Bayo is no fun. Constantly fighting uphill battle and being in disadvantage even in advantage state is draining and quite frankly pisses a lot of people. This is why for example I dropped competitive Tr4sh 'cause I was in massive disadvantage due to my character choice.
From spectator perspective Bayo skips the whole neutral part of the game due to ability to end stocks extremely quickly with relatively ease in comparison to the rest of the cast which seems for many to be unenjoyable to watch. This is why I dropped watching Tr4sh.
From TO perspective Bayo makes running Tr4sh "volatile". You never know how much she will impact the amount of participants and spectators. I'm from a smaller community and even here we have had players drop only 'cause of Bayonetta. This brings the question should the game still be in the tournament lineup?

Yes the community is immature, but we cannot deny the fact that Bayo is draining the community. She might not be broken as Brawl MK, but she should be never compared to him. Brawl MK was in extremely different game where every top to high tier was somewhat broken. Tr4sh is a different game where 1 character thinks that they are in Brawl atm.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

The flametalk about the toxicity of the Smash community (specifically Smash 4 as of recent) really shows.

The biggest concern for me about Ultimate is how it will end up to be. Since Ultimate is a more refreshed version of Smash 4, I expected the Newest Smash community (Players who played Brawl and onwards) to enter Ultimate with no problems.

Generally, one of the biggest issues from the New Smash community is by their low moral and the lack of time to develop. This community didnt have any time to truly solve their issues since there will always be a sequel that retains the similar mechanics from their games. That is why when Smash 4 is announced, the Brawl community immediately gave up on their games while waiting for Smash 4 as they dont care of development anymore because Smash 4 already solve them. Because of this, the Brawl community's moral dropped and people complain about Brawl more and praise Smash 4. Since then, Brawl's legacy was left in ruins. Brawl still have time to develop but it was ruin by Smash 4. This seems to retain the similar cycle for Smash 4: they start strong but when Ultimate was announced, they didnt have the time to develop as their issues from Smash 4 seemed to be solve from Ultimate. Because of this, their moral dropped and people compain Smash 4 even more and praise Ultimate for its improvements. This deja vu timeline will probably continue to happen as future Smash titles will obviously be announce in future years.

That is why the Melee community is a bit smart on that because they go on the conservative route. They know that Brawl is very different to Melee gameplay wise, so they return to Melee. This is a great strategy because they now have the time to develop their issues and solving them without the need of a sequel. Since then, the Melee meta and MUs became more organized and tightly packed, OP top tier characters such as Fox were widely more acceptable as the community have enough time and development to counterplay Fox. Because of this, the Melee community were more willingly to accept Top Tier characters as much as any viable/unviable characters in the game. They have shown passion of their game thanks to them going on a conservative route. If there were a sequel for true Melee in each installment, then the community's moral will decrease as there is no time to develop.

If Ultimate goes on a conservative route just like Melee, then the community are more willingly to accept the characters and the meta as they have more time to develop.

 

[Daisy101]

Totally a bummer way to disrespecting a millions of peoples in the venue or on Twitch. it supposedly representing the competitive side of Smash 4, This GF wasn't a good looking. Disappointing, others top 8 GFs showcases more entertainings than that one.

 

[LancerStaff]

Previous Smash games were never designed solely for competitive play. The very style of the game making it impossible to perfectly balance (by having so many characters that are so drastically different in so many ways).

That's why tiers were created by the community but only after months and even years of extensive, high level playing (results from game testing that Sakurai and his team could never have achieved).


Ultimate seems to be the exception, from what i've heard and seen so far, a lot characters have the potential to be high and top tier. Which is great for the competitive stage and even for 'casual' competitive play.

Concerning Bayonetta, small adjustments (if done well) will make a long way.

No need to ban any character when you can adjust them.



The fanbase here and in competitive play seems pretty civilised and just passionate about the games... maybe you ran into the worst but it's no reason to generalize.

This whole “Ultimate is going to be built to be competitive” thing is a pipe dream. Already the cracks are showing, with previously mediocre and bad characters getting more nerfs than buffs, seemingly little awareness of what makes a game actually fun to play, a reluctance to hand out actual nerfs or even rework anything, and the introduction of distinctly detrimental mechanics.

No. It’s not. The Smash fanbase is **** on by everybody, and for good reason. The Smash fanbase can’t even refrain from ****ting on each other. People like to just pretend these problems don’t exist, and that’s exactly why it’s gotten so bad that it bleeds out in events.