EVO 2018 Discussion Thread for Smash 4

[Frihetsanka]

I was asleep (I'm on the east coast and it was 1 in the morning when it happened) for GFs, why exactly is what Mistake and Lima did bad? I'm only really hearing that they played defensively, but by the reactions it sounds like whatever happened was worse.

Unless I'm missing something, they did two things: #1. Mistake gave a homie stock to Captain Zack after Captain Zack died at 0%. #2: They started a match by holding neutral-B and then just talking to each other until Bear told them that it was against the rules (so they wasted slightly less than two minutes on this).

Oh, and two Bayonetta players in GF is probably a major factor as well.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Unless I'm missing something, they did two things: #1. Mistake gave a homie stock to Captain Zack after Captain Zack died at 0%. #2: They started a match by holding neutral-B and then just talking to each other until Bear told them that it was against the rules (so they wasted slightly less than two minutes on this).

Oh, and two Bayonetta players in GF is probably a major factor as well.

oh wow lmao.

I'm guessing homie stock means you let them have the stock back by restarting the game or the other player SDs? so they're even again?

 

[Frihetsanka]

oh wow lmao.

I'm guessing homie stock means you let them have the stock back by restarting the game or the other player SDs? so they're even again?

He chose to SD, and then Captain Zack won the game, resetting the bracket. Grand Finals could have ended right there (assuming Lima would have won, it's still possible Captain Zack would have won regardless of homie stock). It might end up costing Lima for the Top 100 PGR, I suppose (since he technically lost one more set against Captain Zack). It would've costed much more if he had actually lost GF after that, I suppose.

Nothing they've done comes close to justifying death threats on Twitter. People need to stop doing that.

 

[ThatGuyWhoKnowsNothing]

The Bayo's really are taking over... I didn't realize how desperate I was for Ultimate or how much I truly hate Bayo until now
Sorry, I just had high hopes for a High tier finals

 

[Wintermelon43]

He chose to SD, and then Captain Zack won the game, resetting the bracket. Grand Finals could have ended right there (assuming Lima would have won, it's still possible Captain Zack would have won regardless of homie stock). It might end up costing Lima for the Top 100 PGR, I suppose (since he technically lost one more set against Captain Zack). It would've costed much more if he had actually lost GF after that, I suppose.

Nothing they've done comes close to justifying death threats on Twitter. People need to stop doing that.

lol, that's strange that they did that

And yeah I agree they don't deserve death threats for that

 

[ReroRero]

tbh, even if smash 4 was the best game of all time with no toxic characters. **** like this would have happened because this community has still a lot to learn. That would have never happened in the Street Fighter community for example. I'm afraid that if things go like this, Ultimate will share the same destiny as smash 4

 

[Buddhahobo]

People paid big money to go to EVO and they get this. It was either leave the area or express their malcontent. Why should we appreciate them when it's already easy enough to hate on the character, and they just add to it?

Disgraceful, honestly.

Disgraceful is the crowd being so massively toxic you've got players like MVD pausing between games just to try and get the crowd to stop attacking his opponent, to be frank. Or how this isn't even close to the first time the crowd has gotten this bad based off character selection.

This really isn't a Bayo problem, or a Zack / Mistake / Lima problem. This is a Smash 4 scene problem, and something like GF was a long, long time coming.

That would have never happened in the Street Fighter community for example.

pfffffft

Half the ruleset at EVO is stuff added to prevent repeats of **** that SF players did at the previous one.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Disgraceful is the crowd being so massively toxic you've got players like MVD pausing between games just to try and get the crowd to stop attacking his opponent, to be frank. Or how this isn't even close to the first time the crowd has gotten this bad based off character selection.

This really isn't a Bayo problem, or a Zack / Mistake / Lima problem. This is a Smash 4 scene problem, and something like GF was a long, long time coming.

unless the community changes this will keep happening over and over again

 

[Pegasus Knight]

So, full disclosure here: I'm primarily a Street Fighter player and I came here to laugh at you. That said, I'm going to try to be constructive because this incident calls out for some kind of discussion and a constructive decision.

What happened last night is obviously a problem and those usually have at least one underlying cause. People have noted that players were harassed for playing as Bayonetta, so this appears to be the immediate cause.

I believe the Smash community would benefit from taking this time to figure out a few things. The first is how you stand about various characters and their overall strength. Is there a point where a character is so strong that you'll ban them for that reason? Where is your line in the sand, what makes a character harmful enough to specifically do something about them? Does Bayonetta cross this line? If yes, should she be banned? If not, then how far is 'too far' in the crowd expressing disappointment for this? Should the message to them be 'git gud, deal with it' and actively encouraging them to learn how to defeat Bayonetta?

It's a conversation this community needs to have, because last night was downright shameful. From my perspective (and please correct me if I'm missing some context or information), here's how it went:

Deeply Underlying Cause: Bayonetta is so strong that many spectators do not like seeing her.

Underlying Cause: Said spectators began repeatedly harassing Bayonetta players.

Effect: Bayonetta players began to have a little rebellion of their own, punishing their haters with an intentionally awful Grand Finals.

Do I have that basically right?

If so, what happened last night is terrible. Players shouldn't feel so harassed they intentionally screw up a Grand Finals at a major tournament. Nobody won. The crowd didn't get what they wanted; the Bayo players just made things worse on purpose. The Bayo players felt so upset they decided that this kind of retaliation was a good idea. What really happens from that, though?

I guarantee you that Evo staff is now going to be even more hostile to Smash (and they've already been pretty hostile). Nintendo is probably at least going to raise an eye at this and wonder if they want to continue their support for the community.

tl;dr: What happened last night needs to be a wakeup call. Otherwise, similar events might happen in the future and companies that currently support you might stop doing so.

Thank you for your time in hearing me out.

 

[Buddhahobo]

It's a conversation this community needs to have, because last night was downright shameful. From my perspective (and please correct me if I'm missing some context or information), here's how it went:

Deeply Underlying Cause: Bayonetta is so strong that many spectators do not like seeing her.

Underlying Cause: Said spectators began repeatedly harassing Bayonetta players.

Effect: Bayonetta players began to have a little rebellion of their own, punishing their haters with an intentionally awful Grand Finals.

Do I have that basically right?

The deeply underlying cause is....difficult to really put down in a sentence.

Is Bayonetta strong? Without a doubt. ...But she's not the most centralizing or widespread character Smash 4 has had over the years, even when she was at her strongest. She is however the strongest character played by a player who wasn't already popular or dominating.

Many spectators do not like seeing her, but in Smash 4 the characters who cause this type of reaction can generally be removed from their strength or even results, Dabuz with Rosalina (being arguably the only Rosalina note) being a prime example.

After years of this sort of stuff with it with the only real difference being whose having to deal with it now, I'd argue that the Deeply Underlying Caused and Underyling Cause you have there should be flipped.

The Spectators want players they can harass, and Bayonetta players are it right now. The "why" is a rationalization on their part, and the line between character hate and player hate in this game is thin enough to be nonexistent. Bayonetta is fundamentally a character who is not allowed to win or else as are as a large amount of the scene is concerned. If Lima and Captain Zack had played completely ignoring the crowd, after so many years of this it's clear that the post-tournament reaction wouldn't of been much different.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I'd argue that the Deeply Underlying Caused and Underyling Cause you have there should be flipped.

Interesting. I did not expect to hear that. That would be even more worrying than what I outlined, wouldn't it?

 

[Snakeskin]

Pools R2 rundown and thoughts:

Spoiler: J300

Winners:
ANTi vs Yuzu
Raito vs Stroder*

Losers:
Raw vs Crash
Jesus vs Fabian
Taternator vs Momo Ari
Harlonga vs Zyro

Volatility: Low
Standout set: ANTi vs Yuzu

*Stroder might self-DQ on account of hand pain.

An ANTi/Raito WFs for this pool seems somewhat inevitable, honestly. Yuzu's very good but I have difficulty seeing him beat someone on the level of ANTi, though it is possible, and if Stroder does DQ then Raito quite literally has a free ride through his first round. Harlonga vs Taternator sounds like an interesting set from a character perspective, but it's heavily unlikely to be streamed due to there only being one smash 4 stream. Also worth noting is one of Tatornator/Momo Ari/Harlonga/Zyro is garaunteed 49th or higher assuming Stroder DQs.

If Stroder doesn't DQ, this pool becomes more interesting, but I would still pretty strongly favour Raito unless AZ has a good DH I don't know about. Harlonga vs Stroder could be interesting and something I could see Harlonga taking, considering he apparently gave Captain Zack a run for it earlier.

Spoiler: J301

Winners:
Lima vs Lea
ESAM vs Phoenix

Losers:
Tag vs Tarn
Meteor vs Dakpo
Ven vs Joaji
Gabe vs Captain Andrew

Volatility: Low-Medium
Standout Set: Lima vs Lea

I am very excited to possibly see Lima vs Lea on stream, if they decide to do it. Lea is most likely the best Greninja right now, and I doubt Lima has any real Greninja practice unless Salem's still got his Gren around, and Lea's been shown to be capable of taking sets of players around or above Lima's level. ESAM vs Phoenix is less exciting, but Phoenix could, in theory, do it, but if Lea upsets Lima I could also see him upsetting ESAM. There's also a runaway chance of one or more of Meteor/Dakpo/Captain Andrew scoring an upset (more likely vs Lea if Lima wins, apparently Greninja-Sonic is fairly bad for Gren), although this is reduced somewhat by Meteor and Dakpo having to play each other. Lima vs ESAM will very likely go to ESAM.

As an aside, this is a horrible pool to be a Zelda main in.

Spoiler: J302

Winners:
Elegant vs Ozone
Tyroy vs VaLoR

Losers:
Yep vs Lopez
Pow vs iDK
TLTC vs York
FredFredBurger vs Cotty2Hotty

Volatility: Very Low
Standout Set: Elegant vs Ozone

If WFs of this pool isn't Elegant vs Tyroy, I will be shocked. Not that Ozone and VaLoR aren't really good, but the difference seems a lot bigger than the other pools overall. Upset potential probably lies in either Pow or TLTC taking out whoever gets knocked out of winners (remember when TLTC beat Kirihara?), but that also seems pretty unlikely.

Spoiler: J303

Winners:
Larry Lurr vs Diablo
Kameme vs Snoop

Losers:
Moonshine vs Halcyon
Frawg vs Mellow
Vash vs JTreezy
Mago_FFF vs Fonzie

Volatility: Low-Medium
Standout Set: Larry Lurr vs Diablo

Most of the upset potential in this pool comes from having 4 good players of characters that can very easily cause upsets - Ryu, Bayo, Mac, and Bowser. Granted, only one of these is still in winners and Mago and Vash have to play each other before they can try and score an upset, most likely. Diablo vs Larry is one of the more likely picks for a WR1 upset across the whole tournament just due to the nature of that matchup. Snoop could also maybe do it, but it's much less likely, especially considering Kameme has a Yoshi too and thus knows the character. Also worth noting is Frawg, who could potentially knock out Diablo if Larry beats him.

Spoiler: J304

Winners:
Abadango vs Extra
Shuton vs Eon

Losers:
Terabite vs PoisonHealth , winner plays Tetsuyalol
K9Sbruce vs K0rean
RvRProduct vs Cagt

Volatility: High
Standout Set: Abadango vs Extra

Oh man, I am excited for this one. Four very high level players, a dark horse pick in Extra (who I could definitely see beating Aba), and two good macs? Realistically, any combination of the four players in winners making it to WFs wouldn't surprise me too much. K9 vs Cagt is interesting, even more so because whoever wins plays one of Shuton/Eon for 65th. Overall, this is going to be a good one.

Spoiler: J305

Winners:
Komorikiri vs Nicko
Ally vs JK

Losers:
Juice :4bayontta2: vs RoninTheRose , winner plays Nanchan
AEMehr vs Lt. Surge
MageOfSymphonia vs Hamza

Volatility: Medium
Standout Set: Ally vs JK

I find it highly unlikely that Komo goes Cloud vs Nicko over Sonic, which hurts this pool's volatility score a little, but Ally vs JK could probably go either way, and on the losers side, Nanchan could probably upset Nicko if they fought. Mage and AEMehr are both solid players but I can't really see either of them beating one of Ally or JK.

That's not PA Juice.

Spoiler: J306

Winners:
Choco vs Zenyou
Falln vs Kiki

Losers:
Dreagune vs Gamegenie222 , winner plays PSIguy
Navi vs Zean
IANB Xero vs Slaps

Volatility: Low
Standout Set: Choco vs Zenyou

Choco vs Zenyou better be streamed. That's... really all I have to say about this one. The only other real coin toss would be whichever one of those two Falln fights, since him vs Zenyou would probably run pretty even but him vs Choco probably wouldn't.

Spoiler: J307

Winners:
VoiD vs Brosinex
Captain L vs Lui$

Losers:
Probeans vs _SEBA_ , winner plays Vyral
Jumpsteady vs Arkistor
Jabe vs MastaMario

Volatility: Medium
Standout Set: Captain L vs Lui$

This one'll be cool. Brosinex and Lui$ could both feasibly upset the other two, and I kinda want to see Captain L's Puff vs Lui$'s Mario since I just love watching that puff. VoiD vs Captain L could go either way, although Captain L did 3-0 Mr. R recently. There's also no less than three decent to good SoCal players in losers, and Vyral is one of the better MX Rosas, so it won't be a free ride for whoever falls out of winners.

Spoiler: K300

Winners:
CaptainZack vs Kept
Nietono vs Ki

Losers:
B7Games vs AzteKZZz , winner plays Vermillion
Promaelia vs Zan
Drystan vs Silverfox

Volatility: Medium
Standout Set: Captain Zack vs Kept

Villager vs DLC ;~;

Really though, while the winners matches are probably a lot more stable than some above, there's actually a fair amount of potential killers in losers, especially for Kept since Cloud, Corrin, Bayo and Palu are all pretty bad matchups, so if Kept loses to Zack he's going to have it rough regardless. There's probably six players that could make it out in losers even if everything goes right in winners.

Spoiler: K301

Winners:
Cosmos vs Bedgar/El Cobrador
Suinoko vs Konga

Losers:
Paper vs HeroOfWinds , winner plays ThatOneRider
Stitch vs Bucket
AMac vs Twan

Volatility: Medium-High
Standout Set: Cosmos vs Bedgar

oh man, this is another winners group that could end with any combination of the four players in WFs. Bedgar beating Cosmos is very well within the realm of possibility (I could see Bedgar making top 16 with the right bracket), and Suinoko is very good as well, though it's still more likely for Konga to come out there. This pool has a surprising lack of potential killers in losers, though, so it's very likely that it'll be Cosmos/Bedgar/Konga moving on at the end of it.

Spoiler: K302

Winners:
Mistake vs Strike
Vinnie vs Ac

Losers:
The Weasel vs KY , winner plays el
Kentarosu vs Dragon
Luka vs Granny Smith

Volatility: Low
Standout Set: Mistake vs Strike

I do think there's an outside chance of Strike beating Mistake. He beat RAIN yesterday, and while Mistake is certainly a different calibre of player than RAIN, it shows that it is possible. Maybe. I hope so, anyways. Vinnie vs Ac is more even, but if I had to predict I'd say Vinnie. Once again, there isn't a lot of really noteworthy players in losers, with Dragon probably being the best player there.

Spoiler: K303

Winners:
Salem vs Dynamo
Mr. E vs BestNess

Losers:
Miiself vs Jaller , winner plays Globo
Scourgemom vs Jank!?
Kicker vs Adorable Knight

Volatility: Very Low
Standout Set: Mr. E vs BestNess

There really isn't any real room for notable upsets here. Mr. E vs BestNess is probably going to be the closest relevant set here, but Salem's going to win this one very handily.

Spoiler: K304

Winners:
MVD vs Karna , winner plays Nairo

Losers:
SM vs Kyle Young , winner plays Coco , winner of that plays BaSK 3xA
Z vs Moonboyjosh
Chrispyking vs Domo

Volatility: Very Low
Standout Set: MVD vs Karna

This is the worst pool format known to man. That is all. Karna could beat MVD, but they're both probably losing to Nairo (although I'd give Karna the better shot). I have no idea which Z that is, either.

Spoiler: K305

Winners:
Shky vs Charlie , winner plays Dabuz

Losers:
Zion vs Ty , winner plays Low Expectations , winner of that plays RAIN
SMiLE vs Widget
Van vs Kazuki

Volatility: Low
Standout Set: Shky vs Charlie

Shky vs Charlie could go either way, but Dabuz is very likely going to beat anyone who he could fight. There's a small chance of RAIN knocking out Shky/Charlie, though, so I guess that counts for something.

Spoiler: K306

Winners:
Takera vs Tyrant , winner plays KiraFlax (yes)

Losers:
ImHip vs Bran , winner plays ViibeS , winner of that plays R1HKami
Zoan vs BlastForCat
Namata vs Gohan

Volatility: Very Low
Standout Set: Takera vs Tyrant

So, because of Tweek dropping out and the veritable pool floating here, KiraFlax makes top 48 regardless of how his set goes, without having to really play at all. Yay. It's funny how the set right before it has two much more threatening players that have to play an extra set because they floated the winner of Tweek's pool to garaunteed top 48. Outside of Takera vs Tyrant, there's really, which is why I have enough time to bemoan this pool format instead of talking about the players.

Spoiler: K307

Winners:
Static Manny vs NAKAT , winner plays crow

Losers:
S2H vs Urameshi , winner plays Dekussbu , winner of that plays Razo
Shadow vs PiXL
Lba vs Nineball

Volatility: Low-Medium
Standout Set: Static Manny vs NAKAT

See the above pool. crow takes Leo's spot and has a free ride to top 48 regardless of the result, without even having to play a set beforehand like everyone else. This pool has slightly more good playersi n it though, so it's at least a little more interesting. I will point out that Razo has possibly the worst choice of three players/characters known to man, but that's about it.

The Ty in K305 is me, I'm a Ryu main from Vegas. Seems to be some consistent confusion on that point but wanted to clear that up.

 

[*Risen*]

Whoa, I haven't posted on smashboards in a while. Glad its still relatively active.

I'm under the impression right now that if it wasn't for Ultimate coming out soon, this would have gone way worse for the smash community. If Ultimate wasn't here to just replace Smash 4 entirely and just sweep it under the rug for Evo 2019, Smash 4 might have not even come back. Wizard's probably pissed after that one. Makes his event look bad after putting his trust in a community to not make his prestigious tournament unenjoyable.

That being said, will it effect SSBM? Probably not. Sponsors/Nintendo support for Ultimate? Hell yeah.

Since SSBB, the community kind of shifts over to the new game with new people joining along the way. This means that if something's busted in Ultimate, nothing's going to change because it will be the exact same community. The community needs the revamp, maybe the game needed a patch but whatever at least Meta Knight is gone and y'all aren't getting wobbled lmao. Smash 4 was better than Brawl and Brawl did not have that kind of clapback like that (to my knowledge). Maybe things were different back then, because Brawl didn't have any sponsors. I don't know.

GG Smash 4, Evo 2019 probably won't be the place for you. A very unfortunate way to go out.

 

[Iridium]

The Ty in K305 is me, I'm a Ryu main from Vegas. Seems to be some consistent confusion on that point but wanted to clear that up.

Oh, I fixed your character on SmashWiki. Someone listed you as a Sheik.

 

[Ordeaux26]

another cause for this happening might be that Evo uses mostly Bo3 and smash 4 is not suited for Bo3 which caused all these upsets witch caused zack and lima to get so far

 

[Pegasus Knight]

...How much time do you need to have a 'suitable' set? Best of 3 seems entirely reasonable, virtually every other fighting game at Evo did Best of 3.

 

[Ordeaux26]

...How much time do you need to have a 'suitable' set? Best of 3 seems entirely reasonable, virtually every other fighting game at Evo did Best of 3.

I would say that Bo3 is fine until top 64 to 32 depending on the tournament because that's when all the top players are fighting each other the way smash 4 is designed doesn't work for Bo3

 

[ProfessorVincent]

Just watched the GF set. Found it refreshingly fun and still competitive. From my end, no problem with the homie stock. An SD like that is heart-breaking for both players who wanna prove they are better when their opponent is playing at their best, not when they SD to a silly misinput.

Also wasn't bothered by charging bullet climax for a couple of minutes. I didn't quite get why it became a stalemate, but was genuinely curious about how that would have developed, since it was clear both players were still playing to win, despite having fun (the two things can happen at the same time; shocker!).

And if you, as a spectator, didn't find the grand finals "entertaining", it so happens that esports tournaments are not TV shows/music concerts/stand-up comedy. Competitors are not there to entertain you. They really should not care about you AT ALL. They are there to win, and if anyone's fun should matter to them, it's their own. You can always go home and watch your favorite streamer if you want something to accompany your bag of popcorn, but tournaments are about seeing who comes out on top. They played to win by the rules, with a LEGAL character. The fact that they managed to have their own fun on the side is just icing on the cake.

As always, we all have access to the same character selection screen. If you choose not to play the best character and can't pull off the wins with the one you did choose, that's no one else's fault other than yourself.

Smash 4 balance is not perfect, to put it mildly, but complaining about bayo players (or, dear God, threatening them) is just venting your frustration from losing. Bayo players can't patch the game and certainly won't lead a movement to ban the character. Let them play this wonderful, although arguably flawed game!

 

[Pegasus Knight]

From my end, no problem with the homie stock.

Fair enough. This is definitely a sportsmanship-versus-playing-to-win judgement call.

Also wasn't bothered by charging bullet climax for a couple of minutes. I didn't quite get why it became a stalemate, but was genuinely curious about how that would have developed

It became a stalemate because they were clowning around. There was nothing serious going on there.

, since it was clear both players were still playing to win

,

'Playing to win'
'Stops to have mid-match interviews.'

These are mutually exclusive actions. Imagine if the Harlem Globetrotters showed up to have various antics during the NBA Playoffs like this; people would be furious.

And if you, as a spectator, didn't find the grand finals "entertaining", it so happens that esports tournaments are not TV shows/music concerts/stand-up comedy. Competitors are not there to entertain you.

Only partially true. Spectators incur travel expenses, time off from work, purchase tickets, etc. in order to attend what they are told will be a serious test of skill between great players.

When this is not provided, and it happens because the players involved are willfully and intentionally being ridiculous (as opposed to just 'choking' and having a bad performance), there's a problem.

They really should not care about you AT ALL.

Oh yes they should! The spectators and sponsors are why they have such a high-profile, thrilling venue to compete in! If you don't please the spectators, the sponsors leave. If the sponsors leave, the venue dries up.

I'm quite familiar with Sirlin's writings on Playing To Win, which you appear to be invoking. They ignore business realities. Pure 'playing to win' only applies at locals where sponsorships aren't involved. Otherwise, if you show up at a major sponsored tournament at a major venue, you are both a competitor AND an entertainer and you are obligated to do your best to satisfy both. Usually the easiest way to do this is to pursue the 'competitor' half of it in good faith, rather than standing there for two minutes charging neutral-B and having mid-match joke interviews.

The fact that they managed to have their own fun on the side is just icing on the cake.

Given the footage of people literally walking off en masse, I suspect Nintendo and Triple Perfect Inc. (parent company of Evo) might have very different opinions about the make-up of said cake and said icing. They probably find it to be a ****-cake with liquidy-diarrhea-icing on top.

As always, we all have access to the same character selection screen.

And at some point, it's going to be important to have a discussion about whether specific parts of that CSS need to be banned or whether players and spectators alike need to 'toughen up' and deal with it. The fact this situation happened showed there is a MASSIVE divide between what parts of the community expect/want. This needs to be addressed and worked out.

but complaining about bayo players (or, dear God, threatening them) is

Is clearly something we both condemn and rightly so.

 

[Makai Wars]

I think it goes without saying that sending death threats to players is horrendous and shouldn't happen ever, but what happened at EVO is still worth discussing. This is such a sad way to end Smash 4, but honestly it's not a very surprising outcome. DLC runs Smash 4, people have the right to walk out when your top 3 are the same broken character and the people playing them are content to spend 2 minutes doing nothing because they're both already going to walk away with 10k in their pockets.

I'm not sure what's going to happen after this but what I do know is that this is a perfect example as to why I'm never looking back to Smash 4 after Ultimate. Bayo and Cloud run Smash 4 at every single level of play, there's no place for someone who wants to have fun with an actually balanced character like Villager.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Here's the problem, Makai Wars: The problems you saw unfold last night are going to follow you into Ultimate. The same general community will be following you from Smash 4 to Smash Ultimate. You're going to see this same situation play itself out a few years from now, just with the nouns changed, unless this gets actually addressed and solved.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Here's the problem, Makai Wars: The problems you saw unfold last night are going to follow you into Ultimate. The same general community will be following you from Smash 4 to Smash Ultimate. You're going to see this same situation play itself out a few years from now, just with the nouns changed, unless this gets actually addressed and solved.

that's the thing in terms of just pure results Bayonetta isn't any worse than characters like melee fox in fact fox is worse it's the community

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Then the community needs to be addressed. If Bayonetta is demonstrably 'not that bad' and the response against her is unjustified and unprecedented in the Smash community... then you guys need to get your opinion leaders, TOs, and so on to get out in front of this and stop this hate train.

What happened last night is a huge problem, it's not something you can just presume will go away. People need to get out there and control the message, bringing the community at large around. This is a messaging/narrative thing, the sort of thing that can be solved with strong PR.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

that's the thing in terms of just pure results Bayonetta isn't any worse than characters like melee fox in fact fox is worse it's the community

Melee deals with Fox because Melee has been dealing with Fox for more than a decade, they don't really have a choice. Same goes with examples of most completely broken characters in FGs.

Sm4sh/Ultimate have no reason to be expected to "just deal" with Bayonetta. The community has a choice, things can be fixed from the developer side, and stuff like this is how the community expresses their desire for that when the TO's won't even do something about it.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Melee deals with Fox because Melee has been dealing with Fox for more than a decade, they don't really have a choice. Same goes with examples of most completely broken characters in FGs.

Sm4sh/Ultimate have no reason to be expected to "just deal" with Bayonetta. The community has a choice, things can be fixed from the developer side, and stuff like this is how the community expresses their desire for that when the TO's won't even do something about it.

but the smash 4 community is expected to just deal with it Nintendo isn't patching the game anymore and there isn't a good enough case for Bayonetta to be banned and did you even read my post this not what I'm trying to say

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

but the smash 4 community is expected to just deal with it Nintendo isn't patching the game anymore and there isn't a good enough case for Bayonetta to be banned and did you even read my post this not what I'm trying to say

I don't understand why the community should be expected to sit there and clap and be happy when they obviously don't respect the characters being played or the players for picking them.

 

[Ordeaux26]

I don't understand why the community should be expected to sit there and clap and be happy when they obviously don't respect the characters being played or the players for picking them.

because they care about the game and the community even if they aren't a fan of some stuff and if you are willing to be this toxic than don't stick around and go so something else nobody wants you

I'm talking to all the toxic players not you specifically

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

if you are willing to be this toxic than don't stick around and go so something else nobody wants you

And that's what people did. They got up and left. The typical argument of "don't like it don't watch" was applied here and people are appalled by it somehow. Then those that stayed boo'd but this is far from the first time players have been boo'd for their playstyle, in this case the response to that was disgraceful.

I think what yesterday demonstrated is that it's not a "small vocal" part of the community that feels this way. People are usually a lot more polite about this stuff live at venues than they are online. A large amount of the community is trying to send a message.

But those that run it don't even want to validate the idea of there being a problem.

 

[Makai Wars]

The same general community will be following you from Smash 4 to Smash Ultimate. You're going to see this same situation play itself out a few years from now, just with the nouns changed, unless this gets actually addressed and solved.

No...not really. As long as Bayo isn't honest to god broken again a situation where she's both the most powerful and most hated character should not arise.

There are always going to be top tiers, and there will always be players who cling to those top tiers, but as long as Ultimate's new top tier doesn't take every character in the cast from zero to death off of one down tilt, I can't see these events playing out again.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

It became a stalemate because they were clowning around. There was nothing serious going on there.

I saw it as a mix of not wanting to approach and sending a middle finger to a toxic crowd. I completely understand both sides of it. They never asked for the "interviews"; they were brought to them. Two minutes is nothing: you drink a cup of water and it's over!

Only partially true. Spectators incur travel expenses, time off from work, purchase tickets, etc. in order to attend what they are told will be a serious test of skill between great players.

When this is not provided, and it happens because the players involved are willfully and intentionally being ridiculous (as opposed to just 'choking' and having a bad performance), there's a problem.

I understand that attending an event like this is a significant money and time investment. But that's each one's personal investment to make. No other competitor is responsible for satisfying it. If you are banking not on your own performance but on expecting other players to behave the way you'd like them to, I think there's something wrong with that. They made it that far on their own skill, who are we to say they are not trying their best to win? It's not like they agreed to split the pot bonus and proceeded to play friendlies. They played the grand finals the way they thought they should, which is their right for making it up to GF.

Oh yes they should! The spectators and sponsors are why they have such a high-profile, thrilling venue to compete in! If you don't please the spectators, the sponsors leave. If the sponsors leave, the venue dries up.

Now this I strongly disagree with. Viewership numbers are the TO's and sponsor's problem. Competitors should not be expected to entertain a crowd. The entertainement aspect of fgc is not in some sort of crisis as twitch numbers show. If we think players should not spend 2 minutes without approaching we should make a rule about that rather than faulting the players. It would be a stupid rule in my opinion as the time limit is already there and competitors should be allowed to use that time however they think will get them the W in the end.

I think there's an aspect of mostly American culture that thinks every number should always go up, that viewership, attendance, and money investment should always increase, but it is not necessarily true that this makes for better tournaments. To put emphasis on pleasing the crowd would turn tournaments into popularity contests, which goes against what I at least watch them for. It is great to take advantage of the investments that come with higher viewership, but we shouldn't let it define what the goal of the tournament is.

Given the footage of people literally walking off en masse, I suspect Nintendo and Triple Perfect Inc. (parent company of Evo) might have very different opinions about the make-up of said cake and said icing. They probably find it to be a ****-cake with liquidy-diarrhea-icing on top.

Lol! The thing is, what is making that cake stink so much, the player's behaviour or the crowd's? Who is responsible for the game's balance, the competitors or the developers? Hopefully what Nintendo takes away from this, if they are paying attention at all, is that Bayo is OP. A good lesson imo.

Nevertheless, not every match is gonna appeal to everyone, and that's fine. We just have to be adults about it.

And at some point, it's going to be important to have a discussion about whether specific parts of that CSS need to be banned or whether players and spectators alike need to 'toughen up' and deal with it. The fact this situation happened showed there is a MASSIVE divide between what parts of the community expect/want. This needs to be addressed and worked out.

Imo, this is the big takeaway. 100% agreed.

Edit: Everytime I wrote "you", I meant "we as a community". It is pretty clear to me that your particular perspective on this stuff is nuanced and comprehensive.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Two minutes is nothing: you drink a cup of water and it's over!
They played the grand finals the way they thought they should, which is their right for making it up to GF.
It would be a stupid rule in my opinion as the time limit is already there and competitors should be allowed to use that time however they think will get them the W in the end.
Nevertheless, not every match is gonna appeal to everyone, and that's fine. We just have to be adults about it.

I'd like you to point to me the community that would tolerate ****ing around during EVO GF. I'd like you to link to me examples of such behavior to be at all acceptable. I'll link to you the countless sets where people are screaming at the top of their lungs, crying, and jumping around the stage from the emotion and effort being put into the match.


Smash brings in the viewers and the $$$, but if I were Mr. Wizard, I'd seriously consider putting it on the back burner if that's how the top players are going to treat the event. I guarantee you there are other communities who'd appreciate the spot a lot more.

Despite the context of the crowd's boos, this kind of behavior should absolutely be chastised. I find it kind of gross that people are defending it.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Interesting. I did not expect to hear that. That would be even more worrying than what I outlined, wouldn't it?

It is. It's also been known about for a long time and no one can really claim that last night's GF wasn't, like I said in an earlier post, a long time coming.

I think it goes without saying that sending death threats to players is horrendous and shouldn't happen ever, but what happened at EVO is still worth discussing. This is such a sad way to end Smash 4, but honestly it's not a very surprising outcome. DLC runs Smash 4, people have the right to walk out when your top 3 are the same broken character

It should be discussed yes, but then there's the problem of what ends up being discussed.

Let's get the facts out on the table; there has never been a Smash 4 at EVO that wasn't dominated by drama and tantrums. This is a problem that's been plaguing not just the greater Smash scene, but near every multi-game tournament Smash 4 has been a part of. Remember when Zero went on twitter to his 100K+ followers and accused Mr. Wiz of intentionally sabotaging his own tournament out of his personal dislike for Smash 4, to name just one?

Last night's GF was not the problem. Last's night's GF was the accumulation of the problem, and that's the community at large. Look at MVD trying to get the crowd to stop in the middle of his sets, look at what every twitter post from the players there are saying.

Smash 4 wouldn't look so bad from this if the crowd didn't spend the entire tournament being utter *****, with a multi-year history of being utter *****, typically at great expense of the EVO staff.

The typical argument of "don't like it don't watch" was applied here and people are appalled by it somehow.

No one cares that people left instead of watching their own game. People only care when you leave en mass once "your" game is finished, like Smash 4 did in the Arena at last EVO.

People care (or damn ought to) about the toxicity being spewed throughout the entire tournament at every Bayonetta player throughout the weekend, and for near every tournament in the last year and a half.

No...not really. As long as Bayo isn't honest to god broken again a situation where she's both the most powerful and most hated character should not arise.

Bayonetta even for the few months she was at her strongest was never as widespread as Diddy and Sheik were.

The difference being that (a) They were character veterans and (b) They were being playing by veterans.

Every time Bayonetta gets into a Top 16 in Ultimate, there are going to be huge sections of the scene screaming for her to get banned and no one is going to care about the 4 Snakes in Top 8. We know this is going to happen, because it's exactly what the Smash 4 scene did after Bayo was nerfed. She is a character who the community has apparently decreed is not allowed to do well, where in the same hour a Bayo player will be booed off the stage from a ladder combo with the next set gets nothing but cheers when Nairo does nothing but ladder combo with ZSS or Aba with metaknight.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Bayonetta even for the few months she was at her strongest was never as widespread as Diddy and Sheik were.

The difference being that (a) They were character veterans and (b) They were being playing by veterans.

Every time Bayonetta gets into a Top 16 in Ultimate, there are going to be huge sections of the scene screaming for her to get banned and no one is going to care about the 4 Snakes in Top 8. We know this is going to happen, because it's exactly what the Smash 4 scene did after Bayo was nerfed. She is a character who the community has apparently decreed is not allowed to do well, where in the same hour a Bayo player will be booed off the stage from a ladder combo with the next set gets nothing but cheers when Nairo does nothing but ladder combo with ZSS or Aba with metaknight.

another example of how the community is the problem

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Vincent, thank you for your replies. We clearly don't agree, but... I think we're mostly getting some useful points out in the air.

I do want to clarify one thing though: I think some of my remarks are being misinterpreted. I'm not saying you have to 'be popular' or flashy or whatever to satisfy the crowd. I am saying that if you show up at a tournament in a major venue, with sponsors, with people paying money to spectate... there is a good faith requirement to actually compete and be serious about it.

That's literally all one has to do to satisfy the "entertain the crowd" requirement. Play. Play seriously, do your best to legally win. Standing there flagrantly mocking the audience and refusing to actually compete is absurd.

As for the "it's your time to use" thing... sure, but most competitions have limits on things that discourage interaction between the competitors, and set up mechanics to get things interesting again. Boxing has anti-clinching/hug-punching rules that force the boxers to return to neutral and resume normal fighting. Even pro wrestling, a scripted form of 'storytelling fighting' has the 'rope break' to end submission holds and force the storyteller-athletes to get back to the rest of their choreographed 'fight.' Evo has such a rule too, the 'no stalling' rule. Perhaps Smash in general needs such a thing?

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Smash 4 wouldn't look so bad from this if the crowd didn't spend the entire tournament being utter *****, with a multi-year history of being utter *****, typically at great expense of the EVO staff.

I believe this demonstrates large swaths of the Sm4sh community weren't part of the FGC scene prior to the game,

That they never had much interest in being part of the FGC prior,

And they still have no real interest in being indoctrinated into it.

They just want a big tournament with a large cash prize, but they could care less about it having anything to do with EVO. In fact that's a double edge sword as a lot of the FGC don't want them there either, but hey at least Melee ****ing tries.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The problems you saw unfold last night are going to follow you into Ultimate. The same general community will be following you from Smash 4 to Smash Ultimate. You're going to see this same situation play itself out a few years from now, just with the nouns changed, unless this gets actually addressed and solved.

I don't buy this. I think it has more to do with the character than anything; other games have a clearly best character without people acting so poorly.

With all this being said: People's reaction is not merely that Bayonetta was played. Tweek vs Salem would not have been as controversial, since Tweek and Salem are less likely to provoke the crowd like Captain Zack and Lima did. They could've handled it better, although I understand their frustration.

Every time Bayonetta gets into a Top 16 in Ultimate, there are going to be huge sections of the scene screaming for her to get banned and no one is going to care about the 4 Snakes in Top 8. We know this is going to happen, because it's exactly what the Smash 4 scene did after Bayo was nerfed.

Bayonetta was still the best character in the game after the nerfs though.

 

[Fell God]

Here's the problem, Makai Wars: The problems you saw unfold last night are going to follow you into Ultimate. The same general community will be following you from Smash 4 to Smash Ultimate. You're going to see this same situation play itself out a few years from now, just with the nouns changed, unless this gets actually addressed and solved.

Nah, it won't follow. Bayonetta is getting nerfed in Ultimate and that'll be the end of her complete and utter dominance. No one in Ultimate will be as absurdly powerful, there will be no one to hate.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Bayonetta was still the best character in the game after the nerfs though.

that's uncertain

Nah, it won't follow. Bayonetta is getting nerfed in Ultimate and that'll be the end of her complete and utter dominance. No one in Ultimate will be as absurdly powerful, there will be no one to hate.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Nah, it won't follow. Bayonetta is getting nerfed in Ultimate and that'll be the end of her complete and utter dominance. No one in Ultimate will be as absurdly powerful, there will be no one to hate.

I don't buy it, Steve will be god tier, mark my words.

 

[aarchak]

Nah, it won't follow. Bayonetta is getting nerfed in Ultimate and that'll be the end of her complete and utter dominance. No one in Ultimate will be as absurdly powerful, there will be no one to hate.

I doubt it, the community will always find someone to hate. It was the case all throughout Smash 4, from Diddy to Sheik to Bayo & Cloud. No way that won't happen again.

 

[EMT~]

Nah, it won't follow. Bayonetta is getting nerfed in Ultimate and that'll be the end of her complete and utter dominance. No one in Ultimate will be as absurdly powerful, there will be no one to hate.

I'm sorry, but this is a bit too optimistic. Just because Bayonetta is nerfed, doesn't mean the community won't find someone to hate. Don't forget about prepatch Diddy, Sonic with old back throw, old Luigi cyclone, Little Mac on FG before people learned how to fight him, Rosalina forever, etc. The issues with Bayo are ultimately a community problem, as others have said; and they won't be fixed unless the community fixes itself.