I don't know why you guys want another ruleset when mr. Wizard already said 4 stocks and 8 minutes and apex ruleset. Just be glad he's giving us the chance to put our ruleset instead of the evo ruleset. As long as he uses this ruleset I'm pretty happy and dgaf about the rest.
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Evo 2013 Ruleset
- Thread starter MrWizard
- Start date
Laijin
Smash Hero
Because the apex ruleset = the mbr ruleset which a large part of the community hates and doesn't like? We're an independent community. The majority should rule. Especially when it comes to the largest melee tournament in the world.
Revven
FrankerZ
Where is this large part, again? Are you using the vocal minority = large part again? Because vocal minority =/= a large part of the community.
If a large part of the community didn't like it, Apex 2013 wouldn't have had 340+ entrants or whatever. FC-Legacy had only 100+ entrants by comparison with its more expanded stage list.
We would have had a ton more complaints about the rule set after Apex in the results thread and I didn't see a single thing about it until you came along out of your hibernation.
The only complaint about it I've heard is about the bans in Bo3 and people wanting to try removing stage bans period. Oh and modified DSR. Both can easily be fixed without changing the stage list.
Laijin
Smash Hero
Its pretty safe to say that when I say a "large part" its obviously subjective. All i've seen thus far are the people who have been vocal about this and thats all I can base it off. So in that context, a "large part" makes sense.
People are not going to not go to Apex because of the ruleset. You can't throw out tournament attendance to prove your point since its irrelevant.
Revven
FrankerZ
Then that isn't a large part, that's a minority, dude. :x
@_@
I'm done.
@_@
I'm done.
Laijin
Smash Hero
w/e. I'm too tired for this discussion right now. 
MK26
Smash Master
And I guess that's where we have to agree to disagree. a player should be able to play on his best stage (unless it's banned in a bo3), not counterpick to it. I don't see the distinction between the neutral choice and a counterpick, especially since the whole point of the counterpick system is to force people to show their strengths on different stages rather than depending on just one.
Bones0
Smash Legend
So a player can play on his best stage if his opponent lets him (which consequently means his opponent didn't think it was his worst stage anyway)? That doesn't make any sense. Whenever tournaments run rulesets with counterpicks, they include bans and 90% of people ban those counterpicks instead of any of the 6 stages we currently have as legal. The opponent's second best counterpick in a 8-stage list is equivalent to their best counterpick in a 6-stage list. If you have a problem with playing people on any particular neutral, where have you been the past 11 years?
I didn't make any distinction between neutral and counterpick. I am very strict about actually not making that distinction. I swear it's like you're responding to a different post because I haven't mentioned any of the **** you just brought up. If you take issue with no bans, then take it up in the MBR Recommended Ruleset thread because the topic was beat to death. I'm not here to debate about whether or not bo5s should have bans since not having bans is already the status quo.
MK26
Smash Master
Derpy double post.
Gea
Smash Master
MK26
Smash Master
I think I didn't understand you, or you didn't understand my point. Your cp system is functionally no different from DSR except with no restrictions on counterpicking back to the neutral. Under your ruleset, as a player who loses game 1 and wins game 2, I have to choose between banning <stage I really don't want to play my opponent on> and <stage I've already lost on>. DSR doesn't put you in that catch-22. MDSR doesn't put you in that catch-22. What needs to be understood is if you and I neutral strike to a stage we both like, and you find you stomp me on it, there's nothing stopping you from taking me back there for the rest of the set if I hate some other stage more. Suddenly, you can win on ONE stage, forget two. Not to mention, the banning in a bo5 is basically a formality since both of us get to play on our best 2 counterpicks anyway, the other just gets to alter the order in which it happens.
Habefiet
Smash Journeyman
Okay, I've tried to be as objective and respectful as possible, but how the hell am I supposed to remain respectful when you're throwing out total insanity?
What about this ruleset that virtually every tournament for a year and a half now has used has been "proven" to be "broken?" Do you really think it makes more sense to use a ruleset that we DON'T USE ANYMORE than to use the ruleset THAT WE USE RIGHT NOW to represent the community? What are you even trying to say anymore? You're moving farther and farther away from coherence with every post.
The Evo ruleset appears to have been decided, this thread should have been locked within two posts of Mr Wizard posting, you've gone from ignoring-and-cherrypicking to actively making crap up, and I can't maintain a respectful demeanor in the face of all that.
Go back and respond to everything in my previous wall of text rather than ignoring it, and explain to me what has been "proven broken" about to current ruleset while you're at it, and better yet respond to it in your other topic or in the ruleset discussion instead of this topic, I beg you, because this topic should be done because the only person that I see that is really pushing a radically different ruleset than the Apex ruleset TO BE USED AT EVO is you.
Again--this is coming from a guy that would actively enjoy seeing Mute City back on. Seriously. You are not helping your case by cherrypicking posts and saying crazy made-up weirdness and claiming that there's such clear fury with the current ruleset when literally the only recent example of community backlash against a stage list at an event was against the more liberal stage list offered at FC-L, or that one European event (Smasher's Reunion?) where RC or KJ64 or something was on and the TO got super hate for it and no one played it. A European player can offer more information about that incident than me, I only have vague memories of something like that happening.
Here's an idea--if you're gonna blow up the boards about how there needs to be a community poll or something... make one. Make one and present your case a little more clearly than "this is bogus man," and contact a bunch of players from every side to make sure that even the ones that don't check Melee Discussion get in on the poll, etc. etc.
Or try going out and running a tourney and making that change like so many people have suggested.
Bones0
Smash Legend
My system is definitely different than DSR. I've explained why like a million times, so just read through my ruleset's thread if you want a very in depth breakdown.
Yes, you have to choose between a neutral stage that you struck to and lost on and their best counterpick. If they can beat you on the stage you struck to, how can you complain that it's the same stage? You're acting like striking to the stage on game 1 isn't a type of selection. You AGREED to that stage. It's comparable to counterpicking a stage and complaining that your opponent is allowed to salty runback you...
If I stomp you on the stage you struck to, you can either ban it or not. The fact that I won game 1 should not have any basis on what stages are counterpicked. If you mess up your stage strike, you lose game 1 as a result. Your fault. If I pick that same stage game 3 or 5, that's my 1 entitled counterpick of my 1st or 2nd best stage. BOTH players get to counterpick their best and second best stage. The tie breaker is game 1. If you struck to the wrong stage game 1, there's no helping you. You're essentially asking for an extra ban because you lost game 1. That is unfair to the player who won game 1 because you are allowed to repick the neutral stage if you consider his win a fluke.
Game 1 is fair because you strike to to it.
Games 2 and 3 are fair because they are your second best counterpicks.
Games 4 and 5 are fair because they are your best counterpicks.
If we prevent the winner of game 1 from repicking that stage, games 2 and 3 are not fair because one player gets his second best counterpick, but one player might have to pick his third best counterpick (both his best stage and the stage he won on are banned). This is so simple that if you can't understand it, oh well. Maybe you should just play it yourself so you realize why it is more fair than having all your counterpick options taken away after a single game.
Laijin
Smash Hero
If you want me to treat you with respect, then remain respectful to me. I'd appreciate that.
Yes. I'll say it once again. The current ruleset is broken. Not every tournament uses it. FC Legacy for example, uses something completely different and most of the T.Os who have spoken on this topic in the last few days have mentioned they run different rule sets in their locals. Just the fact that we're having a debate about counter picking in this thread right now proves its broken. The only reason counter picking doesn't work is because there are no longer enough stages to pick from so we can't have bans anymore in BO5, and thus well...broken. This was never a problem in the old ruleset.
I don't think the rules for EVO are written in stone anywhere and this thread is generating healthy discussion. So no, it shouldn't be closed.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Uh, Laijin?
Mr. Wizard already said he was okay with the Apex 2013 rules (Wobbling legal), best of 3, in this very thread.
What more do you want?
Smooth Criminal
Mr. Wizard already said he was okay with the Apex 2013 rules (Wobbling legal), best of 3, in this very thread.
What more do you want?
Smooth Criminal
Veggiez
Smash Apprentice
Laijin
Smash Hero
Yeah I noticed.
But I'm still not happy with the broken Apex ruleset being used for the largest tournament in the world.
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
Just go back to the FC legacy topic to see the giant debate over that ruleset. As much as I'd like us to switch to the FC ruleset, the majority of the community would definitely rather have the Apex ruleset.
Habefiet
Smash Journeyman
Well I am, so we cancel each other out, thus saving Christmas.
Since you apparently aren't going back to respond to my prior big ol' wall that addressed some of your fallacious points, and since as far as I can tell the Evo 2013 ruleset has effectively been determined, I'm probably done responding to this topic, but will cheerily continue responding in the topics in Melee Discussion if people actually respond to my posts and don't just ignore them because they don't have good counterpoints.
Also, along with my whole old post, riddle me this: If everyone was happy with the old rules and they weren't broken at all... why did they shift so utterly, and why are you having such a hard time rallying support for your cause?
I respect your passion, I just don't respect you making stuff up and ignoring counterarguments that you don't have a response to.
Laijin
Smash Hero
Too much typing to be done. I actually was in the middle of responding to it in my last post but then it started getting a bit ridiculous/I already addressed it a bunch of times in my other thread. So its w/e.
Edit: Besides I don't think an internet argument is going to resolve the ruleset. For fairness, I'd still love to see a vote being done on the main things people are disagreeing about in this thread. I mean really, can we all at least agree that would be fair?
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
He ignored all my reasons, which were virtually the same as yours, as well in the other thread. I feel your frustration ha.
As I said before Laijin, as hard of a time you are having getting people to listen to you, it was that hard for people to change the status quo 2 years ago. Yet, it was done, because there was an overwhelming majority for the stages we currently have. This is literally circling and going no where now, it is a difference of preference and opinion on what the game is about. But the new list certainly is not broken, and the majority certainly doesn't support the FC stagelist. Those are facts not up for debate.
It's irritating that you are too lazy to respond to all the counter arguments to your posts, yet continue to cherry pick specific things and ignore the rest. Really, read through the MBR thread, or the FC one please.Too much typing to be done. I actually was in the middle of responding to it in my last post but then it started getting a bit ridiculous/I already addressed it a bunch of times in my other thread. So its w/e.
Edit: Besides I don't think an internet argument is going to resolve the ruleset. For fairness, I'd still love to see a vote being done on the main things people are disagreeing about in this thread. I mean really, can we all at least agree that would be fair?
As bones already stated in the other thread or this one, a vote is not how it should be decided. It requires no thought and people are inherently selfish, voting for whatever they choose with no explanation required behind it.
It would be fair if say, the entire bracket from apex voted with explanations behind why. They clearly have a deeper understanding of the game and the competitive nature of it than we do. But that won't happen, because we can't force everyone to vote.
And going back to a ruleset that hasn't been used in two years, on the biggest stage possible, is a bad idea. If you wanted this so badly, you should have came back to the community and changed it sooner than now.
Metà
Smash Master
MK26
Smash Master
You know the answer to that question in your heart...and in your sig.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,565
i'm willing to bet that a very large percentage of the "large majority" (the accuracy of which remains to be seen) you keep mentioning either 1. do not attend tournaments anymore, let alone EVO or 2. never attended tournaments in the first place. the problem with trying to poll on smashboards is that it assumes everyone that can see the poll are relevant to the subject material. in actuality, hundreds of people have been attending tournaments for two years with this ruleset and i haven't heard of like any at-tournament complaints about the ruleset.
i don't particularly care either way (i enjoy both stagelists), however it would be a mistake to drastically change our community's stagelist for what could be the biggest tournament of all time. like or not, accept it or not, the APEX ruleset is basically our community ruleset and has been for over a year, and that's a fact. very few relevant TOs differ much at all from that stagelist and ruleset, the only relevant example being in fact FC Legacy.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 10,479
I really do not like this idea that top players somehow dictate the direction of tournament rules. I was a tournament host for years, and I never recall consulting winners on the rules. Sure, I'd ask for general feedback from everyone who participated, but I would still make my own judgment calls for the next tournament. So, frankly, I place much more weight on comments from Kish and the like than any of the "top players".
I reiterate that stages are a part of the game, and I don't care one bit about what the rest of the FGC thinks of us. Why is that even an issue? Sure, I'd like for them to take us seriously, but if they don't, that should not cause us to make decisions to morph Melee into a game closer to other fighting games. Again, just reduce the stage set to Final Destination and be done with it. The better player will always win, right?
I reiterate that stages are a part of the game, and I don't care one bit about what the rest of the FGC thinks of us. Why is that even an issue? Sure, I'd like for them to take us seriously, but if they don't, that should not cause us to make decisions to morph Melee into a game closer to other fighting games. Again, just reduce the stage set to Final Destination and be done with it. The better player will always win, right?
Laijin
Smash Hero
We should contact Mr. Wizard and let him know of the current situation. It'll be beneficial for us to have a vote since no one else has suggested a better idea to fairly resolve these issues.
Revven
FrankerZ
And you continue to ignore why a poll is a bad idea. GJ
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
This stage list is far from broken. No longer enough stages to ban in a bo5...cause you don't need bans when no ones taking you to Kongo jungle to time you out.
Fc legacy a. Said they were going to be a throw back tourney which was fun but in the end people stayed with the normal cps and that is one tourney vs. a hundred using that sort if ruleset. No one really gave any backlash for the apex ruleset this year. It's pretty balanced. Also, you've hardly seen a large part if the community speaking out. A large part if the community barely post
If anything laijin, people want less stages. Getting rid of FoD ps and FD are constantly brought up. Like I said before, stop this before you get the opposite of what you want. Try saying what you would add and why in your thread and stop talking about it here.
Laijin
Smash Hero
Nope. I read the responses. I just don't think thats a good reason why we shouldn't do a poll. And once again, no one has offered a better solution.
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
I propose a donation drive. Which ever ruleset makes the most money will be used for Evo, the charity will be bobacks's venue. Obvious only the people who care about the Evo ruleset would donate and that's a good way if getting rid of random posters.
While I would definitely be cool with more stages, I have to agree that I have not heard complaints at tournaments with the present stage list. I hardly think stages, at present, is something worth contacting Mr. Wizard about and somehow organizing a poll, followed by even more silliness. Were this an issue of potential stage abuse, perhaps, but presently this is more a complaint of lack of variety, which while worth discussing, isn't exactly a showstopper.
If you absolutely must run a poll, better than polling the Melee Discussion board would likely be individually polling active regional discussion groups and threads, since our intent here is to gather opinion from the relevant (i.e. tournament-attending) members of the site.
If you absolutely must run a poll, better than polling the Melee Discussion board would likely be individually polling active regional discussion groups and threads, since our intent here is to gather opinion from the relevant (i.e. tournament-attending) members of the site.
While I would definitely be cool with more stages, I have to agree that I have not heard complaints at tournaments with the present stage list. I hardly think stages, at present, is something worth contacting Mr. Wizard about and somehow organizing a poll, followed by even more silliness. Were this an issue of potential stage abuse, perhaps, but presently this is more a complaint of lack of variety, which while worth discussing, isn't exactly a showstopper.
If you absolutely must run a poll, better than polling the Melee Discussion board would likely be individually polling active regional discussion groups and threads, since our intent here is to gather opinion from the relevant (i.e. tournament-attending) members of the site.
If you absolutely must run a poll, better than polling the Melee Discussion board would likely be individually polling active regional discussion groups and threads, since our intent here is to gather opinion from the relevant (i.e. tournament-attending) members of the site.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
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- 10,479
No one has offered a better solution because, much like their attachment to the core set of "neutral" stages, any other solutions increase the possibility of them LOSING. HO SNAP.
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
As a TO you get the power to dictate the rules. If your community endorses them and shows up in large numbers, more power to you. If they don't like them, you'd surely hear the complaints. Just like the TO's using more stages did two years ago. Just like the Kish's did at FC causing them to remove some of the stages they originally proposed as a compromise.
Fair is not changing the stage list that we have been practicing and playing on for two years a few months before the biggest tournament we have ever had the opportunity to attend.
You read the responses and then didn't even reply to them and continued to reiterate your same point as if it hasn't already been shown to be wrong.
Sadly for you the solution has already happened. As Mr. Wizard said, MBR ruleset + wobbling.
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Glad to see wobbling at least made it in.
Pengie
Smash Lord
Can someone who supports the "more counter-picks" thing post a list of which stages they want added and their rationale for why they want them added? This seems to be a pretty big issue to those that support it and I'm genuinely curious to see what their line of thinking is.