Evasion Clause - Lets Discuss Double Team?

[culexus・wau]

We all know that this little niche move is getting a teensy bit popular.

So how about a thread on times to use it, MUs it helps ins, etc etc etc.

So Lets go.


Aside from using it VS Nado/Olimars pikmin I think that we should try using DT from ledge invincibility,

We have like 21-ish frames if we do the ledge drop immediately, thats plenty of time to stick a DT in there and have the invincibility kick in, they'll probably try to hit you too.

I wanna use it to recover but I don't know much things we could get people to hit us with it.

:>

any ideas guys?

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, ledgehop DT is something I've been advocating for awhile, lots of people don't expect it and the farther they space the smash the faster DT will get to them b/c the hitbox starts on the other side.

 

[Steam]

Dont forget you can direct DT as well!

also it's the basically only way we can punish ROB Bair, and it works well.

 

[culexus・wau]

DT Direction is like.... a given

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, another small use, not exactly reliable, but:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pMOsFhBrHg#t=47s

RDT is good for cutting out predictable camping patterns, but the problem is it makes a horrible approach option lol, although it's okay for closing space.

but like it was used in the video it's a bit nifty if you think he's going to phantasm after he shoots, since it's not like he can avoid the DT by shielding. Still risky and usually there's better options out there, but something to consider.

 

[culexus・wau]

if the mix-up hits you have a very scared opponent

esp if it kills

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Pikachu, Olimar, Zelda, Snake, Mario, and Lucario all have projectiles that ask for you to DT them...

Why don't we get a list of laggy moves that can be reliably DTed?

 

[Browny]

Please avoid the use of 'we' when talking about time wasting ideas MTI as it will only ever be you who does it or cares about it.

Theres far too many variables to consider. Humans arent robots who simply throw out attacks the exact instant you enter their range etc. DDD's dair is punishable, but what if he does it from a short-hop? full hop, activate it halfway through a fullhop, FF after its started, starts it late by accident such that you dont DT it...

 

[Kitamerby]

DJ, aren't you being a little harsh?

We should remember that quite a few moves have enough endlag to be punished by double team, most of which are kill moves or finishers of some sort, and will usually connect within the first few active hitbox frames. There would really be no harm in such a list...

 

[iRJi]

Everyone needs to cut the **** with MTI, seriously. If you guys like to act like 12 year olds, then the way you carry yourselves is fine, but for the most part everyone needs to grow up a little. He can't attend tournaments often, therefore he does what he can elsewhere. Not all his information can be used, but I personally have found some of the things he has found useful.

It would be wrong to shut down a person for trying to help. Instead of knocking him, decide weather to use the things he finds or not, but never dismiss more information being gained to your character.

Please, stop acting like a **** 2 year old and mature a bit. This goes for everyone who was ragging on him.

 

[Browny]

Oh sure youre more than welcome to come up with a list of about 200 attacks which will end up as 2,000 when you consider all the variables in range, timing, auto-cancelling and everything else.

I dont take too kindly to the attempted guilt trips every so often because people complain we arent doing enough to help the 'metagame' as if compiling tables of endless data ever helped other characters jump up tier spots.

you wanna know how I see this... People attempt to 'rediscover' ZSS's playstyle after it was noticed that a certain player made a seemingly obsolete playstyle work wonders. Do we see this with Lucario? Is there any reason to believe that DT will be anything but a bad, situational move against everything except tornado?

Until someone is willing to risk using DT over and over again in a match to prove a point I dont see how a list would help.

 

[D. Disciple]

I see your point DJ, however, I have been using DT more and more in my gameplay than just trying to counter tornado. RJ and I have talked about this months ago as using DT as a way of evasion from attacks to get back on the ground since it's very hard to chase us if we do it in the air due to it's speed and choosing which direction to appear from.

Also I use it against snake's explosions a lot, Nappy can vouch for me on that since I have gotten kills off of him with it, or just to avoid a trap he sets up altogether. Sure I raised my eyebrow when Myth said to don't tech gaw's dthrow, I pretty much hit the shun button after that, but he's trying to improve us, even if it is with charts and ****.

If you want concrete results, I suggest you try it out as well, as other Lucario players and see how well it works for you, Think on when to use, why would you use it in that situation and are there better options than double team to avoid getting hit, if so then what are they? That's how you get better.

 

[Browny]

I can tell you I've tried it many times on a wide variety of situations and it fails more often than not to the point I never do it anymore. Is that my fault, am I doing something wrong? I wouldnt know, I've never actually seen an example of how to do it properly (except tornado remember) because what appears to me, no one is willing to risk it. Is it fair for me to deduce the reason for this is because they have gone through the same experiences as me?

 

[culexus・wau]

Also I use it against snake's explosions a lot, Nappy can vouch for me on that since I have gotten kills off of him with it, or just to avoid a trap he sets up altogether. Sure I raised my eyebrow when Myth said to don't tech gaw's dthrow, I pretty much hit the shun button after that, but he's trying to improve us, even if it is with charts and ****.

If you want concrete results, I suggest you try it out as well, as other Lucario players and see how well it works for you, Think on when to use, why would you use it in that situation and are there better options than double team to avoid getting hit, if so then what are they? That's how you get better.

Pretty much agree with this and the evasion thing.


I've found that sometimes we can get away with Double teaming laggy upsmashes.


too bad no one in the high tier has one of those :>

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

The way I see it if we can figure out some moves that we could reliably DT on reaction and that are frame safe we could get some more use out of it.

If we wanna take our games a step further this could help y'know.

The more we know about our own character the more possibilities we have in a given situation.

Hmmm how's about we first talk about our ledgehop DT options to get a more focused topic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adje89izk1Q#t=01m46s

At the next Smashfest/tourney I go to I'll do a few srs friendlies with DT kept in mind and I'll try to get 'em recorded.

 

[culexus・wau]

how much invincibility do we even have on ledgejump

ledgehop and ledgejump are 2 different things

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Works on Charizard's Rock smash, I learned this two days ago.

 

[iRJi]

Works on Charizard's Rock smash, I learned this two days ago.

It works on quite a few things actually. I normally use it for D3's UpB when they decide not to cancel it, as it is a win win situation on the terms of what happens. If the cancel, then you will be fine and reset back to neutral if they land on stage, or in a positive state if they go onto the ledge. If they continue, then they just get hit with double team.

The thing that people don't see is that while using it as a hitting move is not a great idea, using it to escape situations only leaves the negative state of if they miss or if they decide to just not attack. the move overall is really hard to punish. You get sent at a far enough distances that not a lot of characters can chase and attack at the same time. Also, if you airborne before doing it you get sent a bit further.

I'm not hear to fight, but the way you came off was a bit rude. I am not asking you to sugar coat or take sympathy on anyone, but I want you to take a good note on the before and now. We know more then before. We see situations differently then before. I am not here to rediscover any hidden tactic or unknown play-style that is curled up in the darkest corner of the world, all I am really asking is for you to be polite and understand that no matter how many times you test something, you will most likely find something new about eventually. We just relized that DT is useful against nado about 3 months ago, after playing the game for 2 years and deeming it a very bad move. We have more data, and I think it is worth the time to re look into it. The worse thing that can happen is that you find nothing, and you are back in the same situation as before.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I see no harm in making a list of moves the hit is guaranteed on.

Especially in some match ups where the move is used more, like tornado or rock smash for example.

 

[phi1ny3]

stuff

Uncalled for

I also heard somewhere that DT works decently in the Luc ditto, since none of his kill moves (minus throws and aerials) end in time to avoid getting hit, and his smashes are borderline reactive.

care should be taken in making a generalization about this move, it's a very situational move that is limited in where you want to go with it.

 

[culexus・wau]

if he has no second jump and he's dairing you it works too.

DT is hella high risk high reward at high %s in that ditto.

its also useful for clutch recovery.

Something I do to get lucarios to waste their FCAS on me is start charging AS in front of them to bait them to fire and if they do I do Shield Jump Cancel to DT and either retreat to space or close in

 

[John12346]

Double Team is legit against both Link and TLink's boomerangs, as well as Snake's grenades which last exactly three seconds before exploding

You can also DT Dedede's Waddle Dees(the ones that shoot lasers) if Dedede's trying to use it as an approach by following it from behind.

And I guess you guys already know about Olimar's SideB... yeah. Actually, I was playing Dabuz a few days ago and spammed Double Team against him as much as I could; he was only able to get TWO grabs out of the entire match. Dabuz still won, but still.

And of course, you can always DT common projectiles like Ice Blocks, Lasers, Fireballs, etc, but it's more than likely the opponent won't be near you, so it'd be more threatening to the opponent rather than offensive.

 

[phi1ny3]

ksizzle mentioned DTing blizzard would be handy, since normally other counters get outranged by blizzard lol.

 

[Steam]

it's gud for Rob bair since normally it pushes rob away and stuffs and is like impossible to punish OOS. It's also pretty telegraphed.

/repeat

 

[John12346]

If you miss the DT on ICs blizzard though, you'll more than likely get grabbed! D:

Just fire Aura Sphere instead. >.>

 

[culexus・wau]

you have invincible frames.

just jump.. as long as you're not going INTO the climbers you're pretty safe [if they use blizzard you can probably go in if you didn't do the last part of it]

 

[ksizl4life]

If you miss the DT on ICs blizzard though, you'll more than likely get grabbed! D:

Just fire Aura Sphere instead. >.>

how da hel can u miss dt on blizard?

you see blue ice and u ****ing jump into it rofl

and if double team doesnt activate, youll be hit by blizzard.

and u get to choose from what direction you attack from

atack from behind them, seperate the *****es and your good yo

 

[Braxton2011]

Pikachu, Olimar, Zelda, Snake, Mario, and Lucario all have projectiles that ask for you to DT them...

Why don't we get a list of laggy moves that can be reliably DTed?

MK's D smash being spammed

 

[Dabuz]

Double Team is legit against both Link and TLink's boomerangs, as well as Snake's grenades which last exactly three seconds before exploding

You can also DT Dedede's Waddle Dees(the ones that shoot lasers) if Dedede's trying to use it as an approach by following it from behind.

And I guess you guys already know about Olimar's SideB... yeah. Actually, I was playing Dabuz a few days ago and spammed Double Team against him as much as I could; he was only able to get TWO grabs out of the entire match. Dabuz still won, but still.

And of course, you can always DT common projectiles like Ice Blocks, Lasers, Fireballs, etc, but it's more than likely the opponent won't be near you, so it'd be more threatening to the opponent rather than offensive.

it was still bits of free damage i was getting on you because you gave me the opportunities with side-b :]