ESAM's Zero Ping Monthlies: June 4th. Miami, Florida

[Tommy_G]

I don't care bout the PR I only care when it comes to everyone getting the correct spot for what they did

Define correct spot. Taylor beat Eric but Eric beat him beforehand. Is Eric's unranked loss equal to his unranked win? Is Taylor's PR #1 win equal to his PR #1 loss? Is 1-1 really worth 1-1?

Edit: I think the PRs should be win counts. Doesn't matter against who or what. Every month count up the total wins for each player. The most is #1 on it. etc. etc.

 

[MVD]

It's just the record that matters, in playoffs if a number 8 seed beats a number 1 are they now number one?

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

tommy, reason that doesnt work out is what if there's a random nfl tourny (or sfl tourny from nfl's persepective) and a sfl player can't make it out there. soooo 50 scrubs go to nfl's tourny, and lets say masky wins 2-0ing everyone.


suddently masky's record is tied lets say with mvd's or halberds, who accumulate all those wins vs good players over time.

how does this represent masky as a consistant player in FL? afterall, PR's are meant to show off the top ten most consistant players in FL. if it was top 10 best, it would be all up to interpretation, IE Nickriddles post of "we all know who the top ten actual best are" while that may or may not be true, its debateable between players bias ect...

 

[Tommy_G]

tommy, reason that doesnt work out is what if there's a random nfl tourny (or sfl tourny from nfl's persepective) and a sfl player can't make it out there. soooo 50 scrubs go to nfl's tourny, and lets say masky wins 2-0ing everyone.


suddently masky's record is tied lets say with mvd's or halberds, who accumulate all those wins vs good players over time.

how does this represent masky as a consistant player in FL? afterall, PR's are meant to show off the top ten most consistant players in FL. if it was top 10 best, it would be all up to interpretation, IE Nickriddles post of "we all know who the top ten actual best are" while that may or may not be true, its debateable between players bias ect...

33-64 people are the same as 64 person bracket. 64 brackets are only 2 rounds more(1 more round if they stay in winners) than 32 man brackets, which cover 17-32 people. The only problem I see with the system is that there are more losers bracket rounds than winners, which is easily fixed by valuing a losers bracket win by +1/2 and a winners bracket win by +1

The most he would be able to get is one extra win over someone in SFL from a 20 person tournament if they both went through winners 2-0ing everyone.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

but is wins have to be valued less overall, if people "cared" about the PR's like u say, what insiration is there for them to enter a 20 man tourny in sfl with the stacked brackets here, when they see masky getting way more points/getting on the PR beating scrubs in his area?

 

[Tommy_G]

I can see NFL having one random 50 person tournament, but I don't see them having a random 50 person tournament every week.

Constant weekly attendance will destroy a single big tournament in terms of wins if you get to the end of the bracket.

If they do have consistant 50 person tournaments, they kinda deserve more recognition for simply keeping the Brawl scene more alive and it's our fault for not traveling, kinda like why its NFL's fault for not having any PR members....I don't blame them, I wouldn't drive that far.

 

[Xaltis]

So me and DJ Jack got first in teams first time ever teaming. We da bess~

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

This issue over PRs is quite dumbfounding. It shouldn't be hard to figure out. Let me give you examples of how it works in sports.

Standings are to show CONCRETE Win-Loss counts.

Power Rankings are to show ANALYSIS on how strong a player/team is.

Let's take this past NBA season for example. The San Antonio Spurs had the best record in the league for the majority of the year. However, it was generally excepted that the Los Angeles Lakers were a much better team. While both teams were good teams, statistically, the Spurs didn't win as impressively as compared to the Lakers. The Lakers were viewed as the more dominant team. As such, despite having a better record, the Spurs were viewed as a weaker team in the NBA Power Rankings.

Let's stop here now. The difference between the NBA and our situation here is that in the NBA, teams have to go play each and every one of their games whereas we don't have to go to every tourney (or we can't make every tourney). In that sense, it should be more imperative that the level of consistency is maintained for us since we are not held by a strict fixed schedule. No offense to CO18 but his performances in two tourneys show that while inactive only shows that he's still a competent player. Him being on the PR tells players that they don't need to be consistent to be on the PR.

Again just my thoughts on this. No need to take this any other way outside of just normal debate and open discussion.

 

[Tommy_G]

The difference between the NBA and our situation here is that in the NBA, teams have to go play each and every one of their games whereas we don't have to go to every tourney (or we can't make every tourney.

Not exactly. The main difference between something like the NBA, NFL, and us is that the NBA and the NFL use a set amount of games. They can measure the quality of play because every team plays the same amount of games as every other team assuming they're not knocked out of the playoffs. With us, the amount of games you play is determined by how long you stay in tournaments for.

Not everyone plays the same amount of games, so they try to evaluate it how they can, on a compilation of single matchups. Valuations of these single matchups are prone to bias....very prone to bias. For example, I think Xaltis' win over ESAM is valued higher than ESAM's win over Xaltis. It should hurt ESAM more and help Xaltis more instead of being even. A PR member should be held to a higher standard.

There is too much focus on individual records rather than individual matches. Xaltis' win over HRNut(#7) is valued more than ESAM's(#1) just because his record with ESAM is even....how does that even make sense?

 

[DFEAR]

i always wanted a worth/value/point system like a pr player beating an unranked isnt worth as much if they were to beat a ranked one and if the unranked beats a ranked player his win should have value. i think we should create a mathematical system of how much value winning and losing against a particular player is.
start it soon and basically start the pr over with the system : ]

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

You mean like Texas?

Ayo Gallax where that data at?

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Not exactly. The main difference between something like the NBA, NFL, and us is that the NBA and the NFL use a set amount of games. They can measure the quality of play because every team plays the same amount of games as every other team assuming they're not knocked out of the playoffs. With us, the amount of games you play is determined by how long you stay in tournaments for.

Not everyone plays the same amount of games, so they try to evaluate it how they can, on a compilation of single matchups. Valuations of these single matchups are prone to bias....very prone to bias. For example, I think Xaltis' win over ESAM is valued higher than ESAM's win over Xaltis. It should hurt ESAM more and help Xaltis more instead of being even. A PR member should be held to a higher standard.

There is too much focus on individual records rather than individual matches. Xaltis' win over HRNut(#7) is valued more than ESAM's(#1) just because his record with ESAM is even....how does that even make sense?

I'm not arguing anything against what you said. In fact, everything you said is what I've been saying about this issue for the longest time.

What did you think I was saying?

 

[Tommy_G]

"The difference between the NBA and our situation here is that in the NBA, teams have to go play each and every one of their games whereas we don't have to go to every tourney (or we can't make every tourney). "

Thought it only meant that they have set games where we have tournaments we can choose to go to.

That is true but even with going to every tournament, certain players will play more games than others.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Yeah, I didn't take that under consideration when I made the statement. However, I was more or less arguing that the system is flawed and I agree with you. Like the example you used, Xaltis beat ESAM. Regardless of whatever their overall record may be for the rest of the season, Xaltis' win should have lots of merit. It won't hurt ESAM at all, or it shouldn't hurt him, if he just goes back to winning everything. In that case, ESAM and Xaltis both look strong as ESAM still dominates hypothetically and Xaltis managed to take a set of a player who consistently dominated. No one should look bad because they lost to the number 1 player. No one should look bad because they lost to a competent unranked player.

 

[Tommy_G]

Yeah even if everyone goes to every tournament, the top players records over the course of many tournaments will be like 15-2 whereas everyone else will average around 6-6, 17 matches to 12 matches. You can't compare that in terms of who's better like in the NFL or NBA.

This is why I want to consider counting wins. 1 win/match for winner's bracket, 1/2 win/match for loser's bracket(simply because there is 2x as many matches in loser's bracket,) and 0 for losses. The best players will always come out on top with the most wins.

 

[Exdeath]

Yeah even if everyone goes to every tournament, the top players records over the course of many tournaments will be like 15-2 whereas everyone else will average around 6-6, 17 matches to 12 matches. You can't compare that in terms of who's better like in the NFL or NBA.

This is why I want to consider counting wins. 1 win/match for winner's bracket, 1/2 win/match for loser's bracket(simply because there is 2x as many matches in loser's bracket,) and 0 for losses. The best players will always come out on top with the most wins.

That's almost exactly what Texas has been doing. Viper has been suggesting it for a good year or so and Gallax is working on it for CFL.