EDIT: In all honesty, I hope Sheik does not overshadow Zelda.

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

It's like Superman needing to transform into Clark Kent to do anything useful. Yeah, they're the same person, but who's the ****ing superhero here?

They both are. The two egos work together to help each other.

She shouldn't have to turn into Sheik to do something worthwhile.

When I feel like playing as Zelda, I do. No one ever has to turn into Shiek.

 

[Circus]

They both are. The two egos work together to help each other.

Not in combat. Technically speaking, Superman is the hero. Clark Kent, as the alter ego, is as defenseless as any average human, serving only the purpose of hiding Superman's identity.

Zelda's the magical princess with all the power of the Triforce of Wisdom. Sheik, as the alter ego, is just a disguise, serving only the purpose of hiding Zelda's identity (and teaching Link some songs. Whatever).

My point was that Superman is the main hero and Clark Kent is means for him to interact with the real world. Likewise, Zelda is the main heroine (between her and Sheik) and Sheik was a means for her to not get kidnapped and ***** by Ganondorf. It doesn't make sense for Clark Kent to be more useful than Superman, does it?

When I feel like playing as Zelda, I do. No one ever has to turn into Shiek.

True. But you can't argue that Zelda is anymore useful than Sheik for winning a battle. Zelda (arguably) has killing moves. Sheik has speed, combo ability, and killing moves. Sheik is flat out a better fighter than Zelda in Melee. I don't think it's fair that she gets upstaged by her Clark Kent.

 

[hungrybum]

you're so right, sheik can be easily replaced by important characters

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

True. But you can't argue that Zelda is anymore useful than Sheik for winning a battle. Zelda (arguably) has killing moves. Sheik has speed, combo ability, and killing moves. Sheik is flat out a better fighter than Zelda in Melee. I don't think it's fair that she gets upstaged by her Clark Kent.

The fact that Shiek is better shouldn't stop you or anyone who likes Zelda from using her. As I've said before, if I were a hardcore Zelda fan, I'd use her regardless of how much she sucks, and I'd be **** proud of it. On top of this, when I DO kill someone, it feels great.

And Superman cannot operate effectively without Clark Kent. Moreover, the coolest thing about super heroes are their alternate identities. If they were ALWAYS the same person they would lose appeal and have less of a character.

 

[Kirye]

Blah, too many pages. Don't feel like responding to everything, soooo..

"Zelda is overshadowed":
No she's not. It's just more people want to use Sheik rather than Zelda. If Sheik had her own character slot in Melee, they would've been picking her there instead. It's just like Dr. Mario and Mario, same person, alternate beings (Kind of), but people pick Doc for his power, or Mario for his combo ability.

The only reason people are complaining is because Zelda is picked only for Sheik. That's not completely true, if I ever use Sheik, I transform back to Zelda when i'm thrown way out of the ring, teleport back, and fight back until I get the chance to go back to Sheik. That's MY fighting style, along with many others. There are those who use Zelda simply for Zelda, because they like her magic abilities and power throws.

"Midna is better and more deserving":
You're ugly and you should die a horrid death. Midna was a failure of a character, she was the Navi of TP. Who wants Navi in Brawl?

People like this are EXACTLY why I want to force people to play Zelda, and why I made this thread.

You want to "force" people to play Zelda? Dude, if Sheik was removed from Zeldas moveset, Zelda wouldn't be picked because people HAD to pick her. Who the hell cares if people used Sheik over Zelda to pass classic mode or whatever, Smash Bros isn't about the **** 1 player modes, it's about the Multiplayer! And unless Zelda got different B attacks with large knockback, bigger hitboxes, faster combos, and a final smash that summoned a large triforce robot to do 300% to everyone on the map, no one is gonna pick Zelda unless they WANT to.

Why do people use Sheik? Because she's fast, agile and has some strong moves. So instead of nerfing characters this time around, you suggest she be removed instead? Sheik is what made Zelda, otherwise she's gonna be as unwanted as Pichu.

And another thing:

"Sheik wasn't in TP, it doesn't make sense with the timeline":
So? Why is Zelda on the Halberd with Kirby? Why is a Rayquaza sleeping in a lake in the DK jungle? Any of that kinda make the head jingle with thoughts involving "Not supposed to make sense"?

 

[Circus]

The fact that Shiek is better shouldn't stop you or anyone who likes Zelda from using her. As I've said before, if I were a hardcore Zelda fan, I'd use her regardless of how much she sucks, and I'd be **** proud of it. On top of this, when I DO kill someone, it feels great.

Yes, that makes sense. I was merely explaining why I think Zelda fans have a problem with Sheik stealing the spotlight. Yes, you can stick to Zelda, but the fact remains that Sheik's status in Melee was a travesty. It's perfectly reasonable for Zelda fans to be irked by Sheik's awesomeness. That has nothing to do with Brawl, nothing to do with whether or not Sheik would get nerfed, just general soreness over Sheik's dominance in Melee.

And Superman cannot operate effectively without Clark Kent.

I'm not talking about life here. I'm talking about in battle. Yes, Superman needs Clark Kent for a certain, important purpose. OoT Zelda needed Sheik for a similar purpose. But tell me: does it make sense for Superman to dress up as Clark Kent, a character who is meant to be as physically strong as an average human, and actually become better equipped to fight?

Superman = main hero
Clark Kent = alter ego that serves only the purpose of identity protection, having no outstanding traits.

Zelda = main heroine
Sheik = alter ego that serves only the purpose of identity protection, having no outstanding traits (sure, she disappears or whatever, but not outstanding offensive or defensive abilities were shown in OoT).

That's all my analogy means. It is unfitting for Sheik to be so much more adept at overpowering her foes than Zelda is, much like how it is unfitting for Clark Kent to be the same when compared to Superman.

Moreover, the coolest thing about super heroes are their alternate identities.

I don't know, man. Heat vision's pretty nifty.

If they were ALWAYS the same person they would lose appeal and have less of a character.

Clearly my analogy does not work for ALL aspects between Zelda and Superman. I only brought it up for combat purposes.

 

[HipsterKid]

Good, more for me. Just kidding. But if you can't adapt to the rules of the game, then you don't deserve to play. If I had to learn Sheik, I would. The same thing will happen with Pokemon Trainer. The people who really want to play as Charizard or whatever specifically will have to learn how to play Squirtle and Ivysaur too. They're a team and as such you must learn how to use all of them effectively.

Heh, nice one... Anyways, wouldn't you rather have the liberty of choosing when you want to switch your character? I know I would. And what if one of your characters runs out of stamina quickly and you don't get to use them too well. Does anyone really know what happens when you run out of Stamina?

Isn't one point of the game is to learn how to use every different character? If I remember correctly you had to defeat classic and adventure mode with every character in Melee to complete the game, forcing people to use every single character. It isn't a stretch at all to force people to use Zelda, and it's exactly the same concept with Pokemon Trainer, and I don't see anyone having a problem with PT's character at all.

Yes, but you didn't have to have much talent to pull off classic or adventure mode, seeing as you could do it on Easy. One reason I don't think many people are complaining about PT yet are because they haven't had the chance of playing him. I know that a lot of people expected Pit to be all high-and-mighty but I've heard some people call him a disappointment. Expectations aren't always what they seem. :/

"Midna is better and more deserving":
You're ugly and you should die a horrid death. Midna was a failure of a character, she was the Navi of TP. Who wants Navi in Brawl?

I agree with you that Midna isn't as deserving but saying that she was a failure of a character is just unfair. And comparing her to Navi is much worse.
[SPOILERS]

Spoiler

Can Navi warp you from one place to another? Does Navi turn into a giant arachnid-like being and attack a giant force-field around Hyrule Castle? Has Zelda ever sacrificed herself for Navi? Has Navi ever been a princess? Was Navi able to fight Ganondorf's head as it grew giant? Was Navi ever able to kill Zant or a Zant like being using a giant hand on her head? Does Navi even have limbs? I think not.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Midna IS more deserving than Zelda in a ninja suit. Besides, Midna is the title character in one of the latest games... she's been the coolest "helper" we've had, and was actually a great character.

 

[gamer8]

People like this are EXACTLY why I want to force people to play Zelda, and why I made this thread.



Isn't one point of the game is to learn how to use every different character? If I remember correctly you had to defeat classic and adventure mode with every character in Melee to complete the game, forcing people to use every single character. It isn't a stretch at all to force people to use Zelda, and it's exactly the same concept with Pokemon Trainer, and I don't see anyone having a problem with PT's character at all.

Don't call me a "people like this" god...

 

[Drake3]

Heh, nice one... Anyways, wouldn't you rather have the liberty of choosing when you want to switch your character? I know I would. And what if one of your characters runs out of stamina quickly and you don't get to use them too well. Does anyone really know what happens when you run out of Stamina?

I have no idea how stamina will work. I have educated guesses but Sakurai hasn't really given many updates in regards to the actual playing style of Pokemon Trainer. In regards to your first comment, it sort of depends. Personally I do like being able to freely choose my own character, but I also know that in order to fully utilize them, you must know how to use all of their skills efficiently. Pokemon Change is just a skill that must be learned when choosing the character Pokemon Trainer. Charizard, Ivysaur, and Squirtle are just sub-characters in his command.

 

[blueriku]

if the process of transforming between Zelda and Sheik is faster would any one think this would open up new possibilities for new combos to ko or most likely better edge guarding or intercepting ?

 

[HollabackRyu]

Stupid Sheik fans, she's gone deal with it!

 

[vesperview]

"Midna is better and more deserving":
You're ugly and you should die a horrid death. Midna was a failure of a character, she was the Navi of TP. Who wants Navi in Brawl?

Midna wasn't a failure of a character, she is more important to Twilight Princess that Sheik is to Ocarina of time, Midna IS the Twilight Princess, owns Zant and fights Ganondorf, while Sheik just teaches you tunes and gets pwned before you go to Shadow Temple, is stupid to deny Midna's importance as it is stupid to wish a horrid death to anyone who supports Midna over Sheik, cause they are OH SO right, cause in the end she is more deserving not only because Twilight Princess is taking precedence over OoT, game from which we haven't seen anything from in Brawl, but as I said she is more important, just because Sheik has had since 1998 to build a fanbase doesn't mean she is more important and just because Midna gives you hints to get through the game she is the Navi of TP? I forgot how Midna was a fairy[/sarcasm] EPIC FAIL!

And I actually don't care if Sheik returns as long as Midna makes it.

 

[blueriku]

Stupid Sheik fans, she's gone deal with it!

their's nothing wrong of being a fan and unless your sakurai or a developer then you dont know if sheik is coming back and you should not assume such things, because you'll never know if saying these kinds of things could bite you in the ***.

 

[solrac_krad]

most of this thread are absolutely pointless, i want shiek in, that's all, but i hate this flame wars

 

[Kirye]

I say they scrap Zelda and have Sheik instead.

 

[Reyairia]

Blah, too many pages. Don't feel like responding to everything, soooo..

"Zelda is overshadowed":
No she's not. It's just more people want to use Sheik rather than Zelda. If Sheik had her own character slot in Melee, they would've been picking her there instead.

1. You just said it yourself.
2. You don't have to play Zelda to complete Melee, you do have to play both Mario and Dr. Mario to complete Melee. That's my point.

The only reason people are complaining is because Zelda is picked only for Sheik. That's not completely true, if I ever use Sheik, I transform back to Zelda when i'm thrown way out of the ring, teleport back, and fight back until I get the chance to go back to Sheik. That's MY fighting style, along with many others. There are those who use Zelda simply for Zelda, because they like her magic abilities and power throws.

No, it's not. But on the great majority scale, people rarely play with Zelda at all. You're just an exception, and you still use sheik the great majority of the time.

Okay, let's leave it at this;
The reason why I am SO fiercely anti-tier list is because I HATE seeing people use only a few characters out of the whole total in Melee. I want people to learn how to use ALL the characters, Zelda included, instead of just flipping to Sheik. If force is needed, then force is needed. Most people would rather keep to Charizard when Brawl comes out, but they're going to be forced to use Squirtle and Ivysaur anyway. Is there going to be hating on them? No.

"Midna is better and more deserving"

Not hating on Midna here, but I think Tippi from Super Paper Mario can be supported in Brawl with the same arguements people use for Midna. Insofar, I have yet to see a Tippi for Brawl thread.

You want to "force" people to play Zelda? Dude, if Sheik was removed from Zeldas moveset, Zelda wouldn't be picked because people HAD to pick her. Who the hell cares if people used Sheik over Zelda to pass classic mode or whatever, Smash Bros isn't about the **** 1 player modes, it's about the Multiplayer!

I care, because that's the only way people are going to be willing to give Zelda a chance in touranments and so on. Maybe they'd discover that Zelda fits their idea of a main!!!
And since you haven't bothered to keep up to smash dojo and do your research on Sakurai, I'm going to have to remind you that Sakurai is putting a lot of effort into single player. Brawl is not solely a multiplayer game anymore and Sakurai is also trying to make the game more balanced, meaning no underpowered characters like Pichu. Yes, that includes Zelda.

Why do people use Sheik? Because she's fast, agile and has some strong moves. So instead of nerfing characters this time around, you suggest she be removed instead? Sheik is what made Zelda, otherwise she's gonna be as unwanted as Pichu.

Sheik did not "make" Zelda. Zelda has never had Sheik before OOT, and therefore does not need her at all. Otherwise Zelda wouldn't have even been in Melee and only Sheik.

Truth to be told, I don't think Zelda was a bad character in Melee at all and people would realize that if they so much had given her a chance.

"Sheik wasn't in TP, it doesn't make sense with the timeline":
So? Why is Zelda on the Halberd with Kirby? Why is a Rayquaza sleeping in a lake in the DK jungle? Any of that kinda make the head jingle with thoughts involving "Not supposed to make sense"?

Sophism.
It's a crossover game, so everything being mixed up makes sense. Heck, since there is an actual plot maybe that would explain the mix-ups. Since all the characters have the appearance of their recent games, I'd expect that they are based on them as well.

If Sheik comes back, I hope sakurai will use the same method as with Pokemon Trainer. You Sheik players are going to have to switch to Zelda, learn how to use both, and you're going to kick *** with that and like it. I'm pretty sure.

 

[SuperLink9]

"Best Fox Player VS Best Zelda Player"

That's true, but there is no limit in Smash Bros, there is no skill level that says "alright, it's impossible to improve, GTFO now please"

You can keep improving. I know it's cheesy, but to quote Rock Lee's legendary saying "Hard work beats out natural talent"

Besides, if that's so then we're going by the Tier list here. Personally I know more people who main Kirby & Ness than people I main Zelda, even though they're 2 of the characters worse than Zelda. People still use them. "Best Zelda user VS Best Kirby user" well it's very possibly Zelda could win, so there's not really any need to act like Zelda is the big victim here. Kirby fans were probably more distrought than Zelda fans when one of the best characters in the original game was nerfed that much.

 

[Reyairia]

"Best Fox Player VS Best Zelda Player"

That's true, but there is no limit in Smash Bros, there is no skill level that says "alright, it's impossible to improve, GTFO now please"

You can keep improving. I know it's cheesy, but to quote Rock Lee's legendary saying "Hard work beats out natural talent"

Well, I obviously agree with Rock Lee there, but the best Bowser player would have to practice 40x as much as the best Sheik player to beat him/her. Sure, it can work out with you tourney-goers, but for us casuals (who Sakurai seems to be paying quite a bit of attention to, thank Earth) we neither have the dedication and often neither the time to practice that much.
Hard work is unecessary if the flaws can be fixed. Fix the flaws that can be fixed first, then we can talk about hard work.

Besides, if that's so then we're going by the Tier list here. Personally I know more people who main Kirby & Ness than people I main Zelda, even though they're 2 of the characters worse than Zelda. People still use them. "Best Zelda user VS Best Kirby user" well it's very possibly Zelda could win, so there's not really any need to act like Zelda is the big victim here. Kirby fans were probably more distrought than Zelda fans when one of the best characters in the original game was nerfed that much.

Let me mention this again, I am not here hoping that Sheik is gone because I am a fan of Zelda herself, but because I'm against the imbalance that was Melee as a whole, and I hear the Kirby fans too. Fortunately, Kirby is not going to be nor deconfirmed nor as underpowered as he once was. I place it Sakurai's hands to make the characters as balanced as possible and with the extra time I have more than enough faith that he will do his best to do so.

(In other words, I think Zelda needs a helping hand more than Kirby does atm)

 

[Speedsk8er]

I say they balance sheik out and make Zelda actually fun to play.

 

[SuperLink9]

I wasn't really aiming it at you, because I no you don't "hope Shiek is gone". It's really to the thread in general, & what seems to be the general discussion of the thread right now. ^^

Personally I'm not a Tournament goer, I probably would if I could though, & I do play a lot, might even be quite a high level of play, but I'm not sure how good other people can be. Still, Zelda won't be too hard to improve, as long as Sakurai can recognise that she does need improvement, then we have nothing to worry about.

 

[Reyairia]

I say they balance sheik out and make Zelda actually fun to play.

I say they force the change like with Pokemon Trainer.

 

[SuperLink9]

I say they force the change like with Pokemon Trainer.

What do you mean? How is the Pokémon Trainer's change forced?

 

[Reyairia]

What do you mean? How is the Pokémon Trainer's change forced?

You have to switch between pokemon once in a while, or they get weakened or something. Basically what went wrong with the Zelda/Sheik combo in Melee.

 

[SuperLink9]

Really? I've never heard that, does it say somewhere on the website?

Personally I think that idea's kinda lame

EDIT: Just read it, hadn't noticed that before. Oh well, guess they won't be as fun to play as as I first though, I was looking forward to playing as Charizard a whole lot

 

[Reyairia]

Really? I've never heard that, does it say somewhere on the website?

Personally I think that idea's kinda lame

EDIT: Just read it, hadn't noticed that before. Oh well, guess they won't be as fun to play as as I first though, I was looking forward to playing as Charizard a whole lot

Personally, I'm glad. I don't want to see people just ignoring other characters.
You can still play with Charizard, but he's still not complete without the other two pokemon. Give them a chance to make it up for you.

 

[SuperLink9]

I'll like using the others too, but the thing about choosing one character to play as is that you're essentially ignoring every other character in the game anyway. Dunno why being Charizard all the time would make a difference. Arguably it's 3 characters but saving space by only taking up 1 character slot.

 

[Reyairia]

I'll like using the others too, but the thing about choosing one character to play as is that you're essentially ignoring every other character in the game anyway. Dunno why being Charizard all the time would make a difference. Arguably it's 3 characters but saving space by only taking up 1 character slot.

You still have to use all the characters to complete the game, but if you weren't forced to switch you'd be neglecting two other characters by avoiding them completely. I'm glad that is gone.
Pokemon Trainer will be a challenge to master because you'll have to master three different movesets, of course, a good player will nail them all down.

 

[Drake3]

Kirby fans were probably more distrought than Zelda fans when one of the best characters in the original game was nerfed that much.

Maybe. Kirby fans were angry over the change of what Kirby used to be. Zelda fans are mostly angry because of what she could've been.

Dunno why being Charizard all the time would make a difference.

Because that's not the character. The character is Pokemon Trainer.

Arguably it's 3 characters but saving space by only taking up 1 character slot.

It is sort of like 3 characters in one, but they all have the one restriction that binds them together.

 

[Xanderous]

Stupid Sheik fans, she's gone deal with it!

Hey, kid. There's more evidence to support her return than there is to support her absense.

 

[SuperLink9]

Yeah, I guess it sounds kinda cool now I think about it

So now I guess I'll just sit in a corner & be upset about Ness

 

[Darkenedsoul]

I thought sheik was good but really the downside was there was no B+down attack for her.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Sheik should undergo the most changes (nerfing( if she were to appear.

Her AFA is insanely cheap. (Throw upwards and AFA, anyone?) not to mention her AUA, ANA, DashA, UpA, the list goes on and on and on...

I doubt Sheik will be returning, but if she does, it's her who should be nerfed to a great extent.

And I'm actually one of the few Zelda users.

 

[Reyairia]

Sheik should undergo the most changes (nerfing( if she were to appear.

Her AFA is insanely cheap. (Throw upwards and AFA, anyone?) not to mention her AUA, ANA, DashA, UpA, the list goes on and on and on...

I doubt Sheik will be returning, but if she does, it's her who should be nerfed to a great extent.

And I'm actually one of the few Zelda users.

I keep hearing about some sort of leak involving Ganondorf and Sheik, but until I see anything that could be a fake I'm not going anywhere. >_>

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

All I'm going to do is sit back, wait, then LAUGH when they announce Zelda's down-b transformation into Shiek.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

Shiek was one of my favorite characters mainly because of how freaking original she is!

A moonwalking ninja!

Plus a good friend of mine is pretty sick with ZELDA not shiek.

 

[Reyairia]

All I'm going to do is sit back, wait, then LAUGH when they announce Zelda's down-b transformation into Shiek.

-shrug-
It's not as if I don't expect it.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Maybe if you stopped shrugging and ****ing listened you'd be getting more out of these posts..

 

[Circus]

Maybe if you stopped shrugging and ****ing listened you'd be getting more out of these posts..

There's really no need to be so rude. You act as if she just insulted your mother. Chill out.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

It's a matter of personal taste really, and I didn't actually insult him.

Besides, good and evil is a human conception, and doesn't actually exsist. There's no need to be nice either!

Moreover, you need evil with good for true balance, young grasshopper... actually make that ant, you insignificant, unworthy infidel.