• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

EDIT: In all honesty, I hope Sheik does not overshadow Zelda.

Classic-Black

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
310
Location
Somewhere on the ast Coast
Smash has always been a hodge podge of everything.

THere's already remnants of OoT in Zelda's moveset and the music. Shiek could be included and it takes absolutely nothing from Zelda, because this isn't melee. Anyone looking for Melee should play it on the gamecube
 

Reyairia

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,473
Smash has always been a hodge podge of everything.

THere's already remnants of OoT in Zelda's moveset and the music. Shiek could be included and it takes absolutely nothing from Zelda, because this isn't melee. Anyone looking for Melee should play it on the gamecube
-shrug- As I've said before, I accept the fact that Sheik has a good chance to make a comeback, I just don't agree with it. I just don't think she should either be part of Zelda or deserves her own slot solely out of popularity. -shrug-
 

Classic-Black

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
310
Location
Somewhere on the ast Coast
Most characters are in there based on popularity, that's not really a basis for anything. But even so, Shiek is still an aspect of Zelda's character, maybe not the most recent Zelda, but Smash tends to encompass everything.
 

Reyairia

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,473
Most characters are in there based on popularity, that's not really a basis for anything.
I don't see Sakurai putting Sheik in Brawl aside from popular request, and I can say the same for other characters.

But even so, Shiek is still an aspect of Zelda's character, maybe not the most recent Zelda...
Zelda from Twilight Princess is a different person than Zelda from Ocarina of Time, maybe Sheik is part of her character, but it's not a fraction of what she used to be. I don't think Sheik is needed for her character at all. But as I've said again, this is just my personal opinion and I just think Zelda should be by herself.

Smash tends to encompass everything.
I agree and disagree. Yes, the characters are meant to represent their franchise, but with their recent game in mind and the whole series as well, and well, Sheik has only appeared in one game.
 

Aninymouse

3DS Surfer
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
2,570
Location
Akron, OH
3DS FC
3540-0120-0225
Kinetic Cajun, I would appreciate it if you would stop arguing over EVERYTHING for no apparent reason. I mean... are you honestly debating the universal relevance of rational thought in a thread that was intended to discuss the relevance of Zelda? Why?

When I clicked on the OP's thread, and after reading his opening post, I said to myself, "yes, Sheik has lost relevance to Brawl at this point; he's right." HOWEVER, when someone else said that, "the only thing that really makes Zelda an interesting character, the only thing that differentiates her from Peach, is her transformation," I said to myself, "wow, you know, he's kind of right! Zelda by herself certainly isn't overly interesting." And when the major opponent to Sheik's continued inclusion admitted that he "was not a true Zelda fan," well... it all clicked.

To me (and this is MY OPINION), if the Sheik/Zelda relationship is altered infofar that one does not exist or they exist entirely separately, then the controversial appeal of the ZELDA character SPECIFICALLY loses appeal. In the games that bear her name she is often a boring, token princess character. The only games where she ever had an interesting impact on the game (IN MY OPINION) were in OoT and WW, Wind Waker most of all. Not because she wore other costumes, but because the directors of the game (Aonuma and whoever) saw fit to give her an actual personality (again, much moreso in Wind Waker, I'd argue). My point is that Zelda isn't an interesting OR popular character by herself. The IDEA, the PREMISE of ZElda is interesting, however, the EXECUTION itself was found wanting, even in TP. Perhaps even ESPECIALLY in Twilight Princess.

Now then. Kinetic Cajun, it would be wonderful if we could continue on without any more immature, underhanded posts.

EDIT: Actually, I'm a HUGE fan of Midna. She exibited the greatest range of emotion, character depth and personal growth out of, perhaps, any other Zelda character before or since. Gannondorf from Wind Waker is the only other example even worthy of being considered a "well-developed character," IN MY OPINION. I'd love to have Midna, and, hell, WIND WAKER GANNONDORF in Brawl over any other Zelda character. Maybe even Link. But that's just me.
 

Reyairia

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,473
"was not a true Zelda fan," well... it all clicked.
I think you got my message wrong; I am a HUGE Legend of Zelda fan, it's my favorite franchise and it contains everything I've ever wanted in a video game. I only meant that I wasn't a huge fan of the Princess Zelda character and thus implied that I'm not putting strong personal feelings into this thread because of her. In reality, the reason I bring this up is not because of Zelda herself, but because I'm viscously against any sort of tier list as it pained me to see so many characters go unused, one of them under a special case, being Zelda.

In the games that bear her name she is often a boring, token princess character. .
Aha! That's specifically my point; I want gamers to give her a chance to be more than just a token princess character instead of just flipping to Sheik.
 

Classic-Black

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
310
Location
Somewhere on the ast Coast
Zellda's moveset does not reflect TP though. It still reflects OoT, which is one of the few games that actually fleshed out her character. Shiek is still one of those fleshed out aspects, so there's no real reason not to include her. I mean hell, the only reason Peach has a moveset is because of SMB2 and the off shots (like the sports titles). Zelda does not have that liberty

If it wasn't for Luigi's mansion, the only reason he would be in is essentially popularity
the F-zero franchise has fallen off
Pit had two games
and The Ice Climbers had one, so the "one game" argument doesn't really apply.

Simple fact is, if Sakurai knows people want her in/HE wants her in, then it'd be foolish not to include her
 

Reyairia

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,473
Zellda's moveset does not reflect TP though.
Zelda's character reflects a powerful magic user in both Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time. I don't think her moveset specifically represents OOT at all.
Again, I accept that Sheik may be in regardless of what I argue!

If it wasn't for Luigi's mansion, the only reason he would be in is essentially popularity
the F-zero franchise has fallen off
Pit had two games
and The Ice Climbers had one, so the "one game" argument doesn't really apply.
1. Luigi is an incredibly recurring character in the Mario games. No offense, but I believe saying he depends on popularity is foolish.
2. Major characters from minor games are more important than minor characters from major games. Those characters don't really count because they were the main characters of those older games, while Sheik is no protagonist.

Simple fact is, if Sakurai knows people want her in/HE wants her in, then it'd be foolish not to include her
Exactly what I'm arguing.
 

Drake3

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
756
Location
Canada
To me (and this is MY OPINION), if the Sheik/Zelda relationship is altered infofar that one does not exist or they exist entirely separately, then the controversial appeal of the ZELDA character SPECIFICALLY loses appeal. In the games that bear her name she is often a boring, token princess character. The only games where she ever had an interesting impact on the game (IN MY OPINION) were in OoT and WW, Wind Waker most of all. Not because she wore other costumes, but because the directors of the game (Aonuma and whoever) saw fit to give her an actual personality (again, much moreso in Wind Waker, I'd argue). My point is that Zelda isn't an interesting OR popular character by herself. The IDEA, the PREMISE of ZElda is interesting, however, the EXECUTION itself was found wanting, even in TP. Perhaps even ESPECIALLY in Twilight Princess.
I'm curious, but why? I personally like the Zelda from Twilight Princess most of all, because even though she didn't do a whole lot, her bits of the storyline evoke alot of sympathy. The decisions that she had to make, the sacrifices, the fight she took up. I think it all fleshed out her character.

I am also a Midna fan. Until she grins anyway.
 

Classic-Black

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
310
Location
Somewhere on the ast Coast
if that's what your arguing then I don't get the title, since if the character is popular enough or just Sakurai's preference there getting in/should get in regardless.

Luigi's hasn't been much of a major player lately. His mainstream playable roles on the consoles include SMB1-3 and Luigi's mansion. You never really saw much of Luigi, granted it's not as far as Toad fell, but it was still a fall.

Shiek's name is in the title of the franchise, because she is an aspect of Zelda's character. And I'd still argue that the moveset reflects because, unlike Link there haven't been any visable TP treaks to anything Zelda does, aside from her look
 

kin3tic-c4jun-3

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
855
Location
Ontario, Canada
I don't think Sheik is needed for her character at all. But as I've said again, this is just my personal opinion and I just think Zelda should be by herself.
You haven't explained this yet.

Kinetic Cajun, I would appreciate it if you would stop arguing over EVERYTHING for no apparent reason.
Read that sentance, moved on.

Aha! That's specifically my point; I want gamers to give her a chance to be more than just a token princess character instead of just flipping to Sheik.
But she is still a princess, and if she can't turn into a ninja, what use is she? Princess Zelda is a tomboy. A Shiek transformation is a brilliant representation of the character!!

Simple fact is, if Sakurai knows people want her in/HE wants her in, then it'd be foolish not to include her
Agreed.

Zelda's character reflects a powerful magic user in both Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time. I don't think her moveset specifically represents OOT at all.
No, Zelda's moves are referred to as the abilities found in OoT specifically. ex: Din's Fire.
 

Aninymouse

3DS Surfer
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
2,570
Location
Akron, OH
3DS FC
3540-0120-0225
I think you got my message wrong; I am a HUGE Legend of Zelda fan, it's my favorite franchise and it contains everything I've ever wanted in a video game. I only meant that I wasn't a huge fan of the Princess Zelda character and thus implied that I'm not putting strong personal feelings into this thread because of her.
I know that. Chalk it up to ambiguous language or a difference in implied comprehension, it matters not. We are, in fact, in total agreement, then! Joyous day.

If Zelda HERSELF becomes a popular character before the next Zelda GAME comes out, it will be due entirely to Sakurai's tireless dedication to making Brawl the greatest "for the fans" game ever made, not because Zelda the CHARACTER is just so amazing, etc.

*sigh* At any rate, at this point, I'd like to jump tracks a bit and discuss an ALTERNATIVE OUTCOME that seems to please everyone in the Sheik/Zelda debate at least a little bit more than not at all!!


"Hey guys! My name's Zelda, and I'm going to be in Brawl! A lot of you have been really concerned that I might be too much like the Zelda from Melee, but don't fret! This time, I'm going to fight in much the same way, except...

"THIS is what I'll be wearing as I blaze across the screen in a fury of fists and feet. Now, don't worry, underneath the bandadged fingertips and cloaked hood, it's still clearly me under there!"

In a setup like this, we would have a very fast character in "Cloaked Zelda" that also possesses little knockback (but ample hitstun) for her attacks, while "Normal Zelda" would be moderately fast but have lots of knockback.

Thoughts?
 

Reyairia

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,473
if that's what your arguing then I don't get the title, since if the character is popular enough or just Sakurai's preference there getting in/should get in regardless.
The title is "I hope Sheik isn't in Brawl" and the content is why I would feel uncomfortable if she was in. -shrug-

Luigi's hasn't been much of a major player lately. His mainstream playable roles on the consoles include SMB1-3 and Luigi's mansion. You never really saw much of Luigi, granted it's not as far as Toad fell, but it was still a fall.
Luigi played quite an important role in Super Paper Mario, and if the scans of an interview I read were real
you have the option of going through Super Mario Galaxy entirely as Luigi after you complete the game with Mario.


Shiek's name is in the title of the franchise, because she is an aspect of Zelda's character. And I'd still argue that the moveset reflects because, unlike Link there haven't been any visable TP treaks to anything Zelda does, aside from her look
Sheik is an old aspect of Zelda's character that hasn't made a debut in the games in ten years and unless Nintendo brings her idea back soon in the future, it may stay that way.
How is Zelda's moveset not definitive of Twilight Princess? In Twilight Princess, Zelda excels with magic. In Brawl, Zelda excels with magic. I fail to get your logic there. Just because Din's Fire and such were not mentioned in Twilight Princess does not mean they completely ceased to exist in the timeline. It's up to speculation entirely, really.
 

kin3tic-c4jun-3

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
855
Location
Ontario, Canada
Sheik is an old aspect of Zelda's character that hasn't made a debut in the games in ten years and unless Nintendo brings her idea back soon in the future, it may stay that way.
How is Zelda's moveset not definitive of Twilight Princess? In Twilight Princess, Zelda excels with magic. In Brawl, Zelda excels with magic. I fail to get your logic there.
But the Shiekah are STILL AROUND as I've said about 20 times now. It would still make sense if Zelda transformed into a Shiekah warrior.

In OoT, Link aquires Din's Fire magic. In Melee, one of Zelda's moves is called "Din's Fire". Therefore, Zelda is using OoT magic, and still is in Brawl as seen in the videos. This means, that the Zelda used in Brawl is representing OoT in a way, and there is potentiel for a Shiek return. What the hell are you trying to say with your same magic argument?

"Hey guys! My name's Zelda, and I'm going to be in Brawl! A lot of you have been really concerned that I might be too much like the Zelda from Melee, but don't fret! This time, I'm going to fight in much the same way, except...
If you're going to talk to us like were four, why bother?
 

Classic-Black

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
310
Location
Somewhere on the ast Coast
and in OoT Zelda exceled in Magic. Link got a full TP makeover, all of his moves can't be mistaken for any other version as the Gale Boomerang and Clawshot are decidedly from TP. Zelda had no such visable moveset makeover.

Also, I completley forgot about SPM, but my point was that, aside from his initial inclusion, he was bumped down to second-banana status pretty quickly.
 

Reyairia

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,473
Zelda had no such visable moveset makeover.
So far. The whole point of this thread is to give Zelda, alone, a chance to make her debut without having anything to do with Sheik.

Also, I completley forgot about SPM, but my point was that, aside from his initial inclusion, he was bumped down to second-banana status pretty quickly.
He was the character supposedly destined to get into Mario's way, and I think that really bumped up his importance because despite being "bumped down to second banana," it came back to bite Mario in the ***.


God is love, I love, therefore I am God?
Makes sense mathematically, but holds little water in an arguement. I learned the vocabulary word for such arguement, but I forgot it. u_u
 

Classic-Black

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
310
Location
Somewhere on the ast Coast
but sheik being a separate character takes nothing away from that.

and, despite being ten years old, OoT is still one of the Best Zeldas ever in many peoples eyes. they could easily include Shiek as a nod to that series, and advertisement for the VC and that game (to the few people that might not know
 

Iris

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
532
You're right, as a separate character, Sheik retracts nothing from Zelda. As a tacked on character attached to her moveset with strengths that overshadow hers, she does, however.

Even as products of OoT, the goddess spells seem like they're there to pay homage to the 3 goddesses rather than just Ocarina of Time, as they've been relevant to the series for much longer and still are. If they wanted it to represent solely that game then they could've been more similar to the in-game versions. Besides, they made up the majority of Zelda's specials, so scrapping them would make her into a completely different character, whereas removing only Sheik from her moveset really wouldn't since hardly anyone played both simultaneously.

Also, I highly doubt they'd advertise OoT before they would TP at this point. I expect and original TP ability to be added in Transform's stead. At the very least, I hope.
 

Reyairia

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,473
but sheik being a separate character takes nothing away from that.
No, no it doesn't. Yet, I still don't think Sheik deserves her own character slot, because, as you said, she still is only part of Zelda. I say we give other characters, maybe not from the LoZ franchise, a chance.
 

Xanderous

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
1,598
Ice Climbers only had one game. Marth only had one game. Roy only had one game. Ness only had one game. Lucas only had one game.

The argument that Shiek has only been a single game is ridiculous. And, considering that game is the highest rated game ever created, she clearly deserves her position.
 

Aninymouse

3DS Surfer
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
2,570
Location
Akron, OH
3DS FC
3540-0120-0225
If you're going to talk to us like were four, why bother?
I appologize, good sir. I did not intend that post to be condescending, but rather to be of a seperate tone and character from myself. A simple misunderstanding, but I realize that it is not possible to detect sarcasm at times through text. I was just having some fun.


In any case, none of you responded to my idea at all. I'm genuinely interested in what you think of my idea. If it's a bad idea, please, by all means let me know!
 

Reyairia

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,473
Ice Climbers only had one game. Marth only had one game. Roy only had one game. Ness only had one game. Lucas only had one game.

The argument that Shiek has only been a single game is ridiculous. And, considering that game is the highest rated game ever created, she clearly deserves her position.
Let me repeat this once more;
Major characters from minor games are more important than minor characters from major games! If Sheik was the protagonist of Ocarina of Time instead of a sidekick, my arguement would be invalid, but it is not.
 

Drake3

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
756
Location
Canada
In any case, none of you responded to my idea at all. I'm genuinely interested in what you think of my idea. If it's a bad idea, please, by all means let me know!
It's been proposed before and hit with alot of negativity. Although if they were to introduce Sheik into the game in a TP model, I think it would look alot like that.

Now answer my question >_>
 

Xanderous

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
1,598
Let me repeat this once more;
Major characters from minor games are more important than minor characters from major games! If Sheik was the protagonist of Ocarina of Time instead of a sidekick, my arguement would be invalid, but it is not.
Zelda is a minor character?
 

Classic-Black

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
310
Location
Somewhere on the ast Coast
Shiek being included doesn't mean that someone form a different franchise won't be included, it just means that Shiek will be. Besides, no one will have more Reps than the Mario franchise
 

Reyairia

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,473
Shiek being included doesn't mean that someone form a different franchise won't be included, it just means that Shiek will be. Besides, no one will have more Reps than the Mario franchise
Are you kidding me? Just go to any character speculation thread and you'll find rosters of over 60-70 viable contenders when Sakurai said no more than 50. I think that many of these 10-20 characters that will unfortunately be left out are more deserving of a playable character position.
 

Iris

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
532
I can't speak for others, but I'm more concerned with the magic-based playing style. I'd rather that be fleshed out properly, making Zelda's magical abilities (and all her specials) on par with other characters fighting styles rather than continuity and representation of the series being followed. What matters most is that Zelda herself is properly represented as the fighter she should be without unnecessary add-ons and gimmicks.

Also, Sheik's minor because she isn't a character. She's a costume. Is Link's shield an important character in the series? It's not actually a living thing, but it's appeared in multiple games and always has a consistent role, and its heavy association with Link makes it a viable option, right? I know Sheik played an important role to Zelda's character in Ocarina of Time, but she was really just an enabler for development, not a pivotal character. Zelda's evolved since then and doesn't need Sheik any more than the series itself does.

I agree that Sheik being included could take from some of the bigger faces in gaming, but it's really not as big of a threat as it could be since characters from previous SSB games are likely to resurface. I'd say her inclusion as a separate character is pretty feasible. I just hate the idea of her remaining in Zelda's moveset.
 

Xanderous

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
1,598
I can't speak for others, but I'm more concerned with the magic-based playing style. I'd rather that be fleshed out properly, making Zelda's magical abilities (and all her specials) on par with other characters fighting styles rather than continuity and representation of the series being followed. What matters most is that Zelda herself is properly represented as the fighter she should be without unnecessary add-ons and gimmicks.
There's nothing magical about transforming into a ninja?
 

Classic-Black

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
310
Location
Somewhere on the ast Coast
Are you kidding me? Just go to any character speculation thread and you'll find rosters of over 60-70 viable contenders when Sakurai said no more than 50. I think that many of these 10-20 characters that will unfortunately be left out are more deserving of a playable character position.
Who exactly determines who is more deserving, you?

My point was if they put Shiek in, that means they were gonna put her in, so she's not taking anyone elses "hypothetical" slot.

And half of those contenders will end up as Assist Trophies regardless, but you can't blame that on any playabl character in the game.
 
Top Bottom