EDIT: In all honesty, I hope Sheik does not overshadow Zelda.

[Kooichi]

How many Sheik users actually like Sheik as a character and not because of her moveset >.>? Also, is Sheik's moveset the only reason people want her bck?

 

[Xanderous]

How many Sheik users actually like Sheik as a character and not because of her moveset >.>? Also, is Sheik's moveset the only reason people want her bck?

Does it matter? Cool character + cool moveset = winner.

 

[Thedude3445]

I always wanted Sheik to be in Brawl. Even if TP is the character designs now, he(she) could still get in. But I agree that Zelda needs to shine, because I don't think I have ever played a match with Zelda and not Sheik at all. Hopefully HAL made her better than in Melee.

 

[Reyairia]

Who exactly determines who is more deserving, you?

My point was if they put Shiek in, that means they were gonna put her in, so she's not taking anyone elses "hypothetical" slot.

And half of those contenders will end up as Assist Trophies regardless, but you can't blame that on any playabl character in the game.

What defines a deserving character to me? A character that is recurring, and representative of the series. A character in which someone who has never played the franchise can look at and say "Oh yeah, that character from ___" They can do it for Zelda alone, but when they see Sheik they often think more of Melee rather than Ocarina of Time if they recognize her at all, which defeats the point.

I'm not talking about "hypothetical slots," I just don't think that Sheik deserves the PC slot before many other characters. I think Sheik did her job of representing LoZ in Melee when OOT was the game and that's done.

I kind of can if I think one character didn't deserve the spot and if I see another imo more important character that could have been in it's place.

Does it matter? Cool character + cool moveset = winner.

Unfortunately, I don't hold popularity very high up. I think recurrence comes first, then popularity.

 

[Iris]

There's nothing magical about transforming into a ninja?

It's not that the move isn't magical, but the resulting fighting style most certainly is not.

 

[Kooichi]

Does it matter? Cool character + cool moveset = winner.

So then lets say...they buffed Zelda a bit but nerfed down Sheik ALOT so they can be balanced out, would you still use Sheik?

 

[Classic-Black]

What defines a deserving character to me? A character that is recurring, and representative of the series. A character in which someone who has never played the franchise can look at and say "Oh yeah, that character from ___" They can do it for Zelda alone, but when they see Sheik they often think more of Melee rather than Ocarina of Time if they recognize her at all, which defeats the point.

I'm not talking about "hypothetical slots," I just don't think that Sheik deserves the PC slot before many other characters. I think Sheik did her job of representing LoZ in Melee when OOT was the game and that's done.

I kind of can if I think one character didn't deserve the spot and if I see another imo more important character that could have been in it's place.



Unfortunately, I don't hold popularity very high up.

So your assuming that most people are only familiar with Shiek from Smash. Which means anyone that actually likes that character only likes her because of Smash

But no, you don't get to make the decision of who's deserving. Neither do I for that matter, especially since your definition of someone worthy would've dismissed characters like the Ice Climbers (who probably are more recognized because of Smash, moreso than Shiek) and Lucas (who'se game has never been released in America) Definately wouldn't want you calling the shots

 

[SuperLink9]

Oh come on, Adult Link being famous because of OoT isn't the same as Shiek, we're talking about the main character of an entire series here, Shiek is just one major support character for OoT. Her role doesn't even have to make that much of a difference, as far as Sakurai's concerned, she was a popular character in Melee. Arguably Mr Game & Watch has never been in ANY game before, it was just the symbol from that era, they gave the nameless moving image a name.

Besides, all this is just the same argument again.

Shiek's character or Shiek's moveset? Shiek is essentially a part of Zelda, a big argument is that she's not anymore, but that doesn't matter. The question you should ask is, isn't there one character in Brawl you dislike more than Shiek? Characters like Dedede & Meta Knight, I'm not ecstatic about them, but not upset with them. Characters like Lucas & Diddy Kong I wish were never put in (Lucas only because I'll hold a grudge if he "replaces" Ness) so why should "liking Shiek for her moves & not the character" make a difference anyway? There are possibly characters in Melee/Brawl you hate more, & besides, you yourself cannot speak for everyone.

Every argument for or against Shiek is simply opinion/speculation anyway. Looks like it's calmed down a bit, but before it was a senseless flame battle.

 

[Int_Bl3d]

Sheik should most deffinatly not return. The main job of the game smash brothers is to include all the up to date versions of each character and beat the hell out of each other. Not only has Sheik not had an appearance in almost ten ****ing years but Zelda is locked in a world of twighlight in her current state. Enless she ****ing busted through the twilight world and found her ten year old suit next to some crusty dildos in her closet then she should not return as sheik. In addition sheik was made so much outragesly faster than every other character that her 1 frame attack delay made her impossible to fight one on one enless the person playing is a total dumb****, and by the way this isnt opinion, its fact, dont be a ***, let sheik go shed be in her ****ing 30's by now anyways

 

[Aninymouse]

Now answer my question >_>

Certainly:

I'm curious, but why? I personally like the Zelda from Twilight Princess most of all, because even though she didn't do a whole lot, her bits of the storyline evoke alot of sympathy. The decisions that she had to make, the sacrifices, the fight she took up. I think it all fleshed out her character.

I am also a Midna fan. Until she grins anyway.

I am of the opinion that Zelda lost a lot of chance to grow and develope as a character due to Aonuma wanting to draw more attention to Midna, his team's own completely new creation. Yes, her throne room was ransacked, and she was locked up and humiliated, and she even

Spoiler

sacrificed her freedom completely to save Midna's life force

... And yet, after all that, while she was indeed an important character to the story, Midna was designed to be the real star. I would put Zelda on par with Lilia in TP: loveable, endearing, but not elaborated enough upon to be anything more than a secondary character. Link and Midna are the primary protagonists. This is just my opinion. It doesn't mean that I dislike Zelda or Lilia or that I think Zelda doesn't deserve to be in Brawl, either! I simply stated that YES, I feel Zelda is a character with UNREALIZED POTENTIAL. That's all.

Now then, about the infamous "Cloaked Zelda" proposition:

It's been proposed before and hit with alot of negativity. Although if they were to introduce Sheik into the game in a TP model, I think it would look alot like that.

"...If they were to introduce Sheik into the game [with] a TP model, I think it would look alot like that."

Obviously, I agree. Assuming Sheik DOES "return" (as in, her Melee moveset tied to a character model), I would assume that Sheik would NOT look like Ocarina of Time's "Sheik." EVEN IF "Sheik" does NOT look like "Cloaked Zelda," I do NOT feel that she will look like she did in Melee. Let's be very clear on that.

OH! But what do we have here?

"It's been proposed before, and [the idea] hit with alot of negativity."

I wonder, why is that? I mean really. Let me inculcate my angle here, a bit -- indulge me.

1. I propose that both Zelda and "Sheik" return to Brawl with nearly the exact same movesets as Melee.
2. I propose that "Sheik's" character model be a totally new one.

That's it! Aside from the tweaking of the strength, speed or other invisible factors, all my idea represents is Melee Zelda/Sheik coming back with different clothes (and no red eyes).

We all know Sakurai is going to buff Zelda and nerf Sheik. That goes without saying.

 

[True Fool]

I think if Sheik comes back she deserves an original design. Since the Zelda franchise seems to be only represented by TP forms, why not make one up for Shiek? New costume, no more gender-neutral, possibly some new B-attacks.

 

[Aninymouse]

Yes, exactly. I like that proposition very much!

 

[vesperview]

And who's more deserving than Sheik really? And please don't say Midna, because she's not.

Midna is more important to Twilight Princess than Sheik ever was to Ocarina Of Time, Midna is more deserving this time around.

 

[geemann2236]

In all honesty, I hope you BUUUURN.

 

[blueriku]

well i completely agree with superlink if you think about it the only people that are going to use Zelda is people that like her style and move set or fans so really this basic concept could be said for every character. main point is other characters will have the spot light even more if sheik is taken out it wont make much of a difference except pissing sheik player and fans alike, honestly their is nothing to gain if sheik is taken out, if anything to make every one happy. sheik could be a separate character, but you have to remember that sakurai designed Zelda and sheik as a whole. yes you could make Zelda solo simply by changing her prioity and speed, but their is evidence that suggest that Zelda really changed somewhat in strength though overall not much especially in movement this is from Zelda's profile in which sakurai says;

"Just like Link, Zelda’s design has also changed.
She has a slightly more subdued color scheme."

"Her movement capabilities are not that good, but her magic adds power to her physical attacks. There’s a reason why her hands and feet glow, after all."

as you can clearly read is pretty much sounds that Zelda has not changed much maybe except in prioity and power, but like i said the original idea of Zelda and sheik is a balance and so sheik should return based off this concept and the fact that it would not change anything with Zelda but make her less popular, since player would probably start using other characters.

 

[Chepe]

Man, all Sakurai needs to do is make them true opposites to make them work together in harmony. Shiek would not overshadow Zelda if both are not good by themselves.

Just imagine with the Brawl demo, being able to switch from Meta Knight to Bowser at will. Rack up damage with Meta, then become Bowser and fight until you kill the person. Both are viable characters, but each one really has a weakness that stands out. They now cover each other well. I know its not the best example, but the idea could work well with the good guidance of Sakurai and co.

 

[Iris]

The difference is that Bowser and Meta Knight aren't supposed to depend on eachother because they're individual characters, making them ideally on par with everyone. With Zelda and Sheik, they're forced to depend on eachother so their individual blaring weaknesses are compensated by it being a strength for the other one. That means if you want to play as either Sheik or Zelda by themselves then you can't use a character with full potential.

Like some one already said, normal characters = 1, but the Zelda + Sheik combo is supposed to be .5 + .5 = 1. Maybe not exactly, but one alone doesn't have the full potential of a normal character, making it unfair and broken to use just one.

 

[Xanderous]

There's nothing more that can be said about the subject.

 

[Chepe]

The difference is that Bowser and Meta Knight aren't supposed to depend on eachother because they're individual characters, making them ideally on par with everyone. With Zelda and Sheik, they're forced to depend on eachother so their individual blaring weaknesses are compensated by it being a strength for the other one. That means if you want to play as either Sheik or Zelda by themselves then you can't use a character with full potential.

Like some one already said, normal characters = 1, but the Zelda + Sheik combo is supposed to be .5 + .5 = 1. Maybe not exactly, but one alone doesn't have the full potential of a normal character, making it unfair and broken to use just one.

Wait, WHAT? Are we talking about Melee here? Because Shiek can play just fine all by herself, and has no weaknesses that warrant switching to Zelda. It was just a screw up by Melee's team, one they probably had no time to balance. Pokemon Trainer is the first example of characters that depend on each other, because of the stamina implementation which prompts switching. Its Zelda Shiek done right.

Zelda and Shiek WERE supposed to be 1 character, Sakurai did envision it that way, but they turned out to be 2 distinct characters on whole separate tiers. Shiek never has to turn into Zelda. If they are both a transform pair again, I sincerely hope they are played like 1 character like you said. This would probably require Shiek to have NO knockback basically, and Zelda to be mostly power...

 

[Iris]

Well, that was the intended effect for Melee, but the wound up not balancing them and just gave Zelda a lot of hard to land knockout moves and Sheik pretty much everything else. Yeah, they're basically like Pokemon Trainer, but instead of switching due to stamina they switch to counteract what the other lacks in battle.

I'd rather they remain 2 distinct characters of the same tier if anything. As interesting as the concept was, they've already got the idea nailed with Samus and PT. Why beat a dead horse when they couldn't do it right the first time with Zelda? I'd rather these two unique characters get separate full movesets rather than cramming them together and forcing the change between them during battle.

 

[Chepe]

I guess its your opinion... I say fix Zelda and Shiek to make them truly transform dependant, because Pokemon Trainer is that way. Scrapping the idea because it didnt come out right the first time is like saying Bowser should not have seen improvements, and Mewtwo should just be dropped completely (which is sadly the attitude of many). But like I said, opinions. We will just have to wait and see *sigh*...

 

[Iris]

I dislike the idea of Zelda being as dependent as characters like Squirtle and Ivysaur. You'd think she was important enough to get a whole slot to herself like Pikachu has. Her gimmick as a down B is already remade into a new character and the whole slow and powerful, quick and weak this is with Samus. I just don't see them reusing it or else Zelda's gimmick would've been confirmed first.

 

[Drake3]

I am of the opinion that Zelda lost a lot of chance to grow and develope as a character due to Aonuma wanting to draw more attention to Midna, his team's own completely new creation. Yes, her throne room was ransacked, and she was locked up and humiliated, and she even

Spoiler

sacrificed her freedom completely to save Midna's life force

... And yet, after all that, while she was indeed an important character to the story, Midna was designed to be the real star. I would put Zelda on par with Lilia in TP: loveable, endearing, but not elaborated enough upon to be anything more than a secondary character. Link and Midna are the primary protagonists. This is just my opinion. It doesn't mean that I dislike Zelda or Lilia or that I think Zelda doesn't deserve to be in Brawl, either! I simply stated that YES, I feel Zelda is a character with UNREALIZED POTENTIAL. That's all.

She really is, but at least they're starting to give her more spotlight time. I really think that they should make a Zelda game similar to ICO in which you have both Link and Zelda as the 1 playable protagonist.

That's it! Aside from the tweaking of the strength, speed or other invisible factors, all my idea represents is Melee Zelda/Sheik coming back with different clothes (and no red eyes).

We all know Sakurai is going to buff Zelda and nerf Sheik. That goes without saying.

Yes, but many people were adamant about how it's only Zelda in a cloak and Sheik should be an actual remodel.

I think I get what you're saying now. What you're saying is that when Zelda transforms, she dons the cloak and bandages as well as use her magic to once again alter herself into a ninja. So basically, she'll retain the exact same moveset that Sheik had, while using physical attacks instead of magic, but she will not go by the name Sheik. Is that kind of what you were saying?

The only thing is that Sheik fans will probably be unhappy about the lack of name, but I don't see why they should because it is just Zelda afterall.

Maybe that is a solution. But like Iris, my only concern is that Zelda play to her full potential on the magical side of the spectrum. It is a fighting game, but I don't see why an arcane user has to be in a lower class than a fist-fighter.

 

[blueriku]

maybe the real reason there is so much debate about Zelda and sheik is because no one has anything better to do until Zelda's update. honestly most of these debates are outside of what sakurai wants. it is understandable to debate for competitive sake, but going beyond that is ridiculous i am for one all for both sheik and zelda they both will be great characters and great to play as and the same hopefully competitively in brawl. as long as Zelda is buffed ans sheik is in brawl i along with probably a lot of sheik fans/players will be happy.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I dislike the idea of Zelda being as dependent as characters like Squirtle and Ivysaur. You'd think she was important enough to get a whole slot to herself like Pikachu has. Her gimmick as a down B is already remade into a new character and the whole slow and powerful, quick and weak this is with Samus. I just don't see them reusing it or else Zelda's gimmick would've been confirmed first.

She did get a whole slot for herself...

newsflash:

Sheik IS Zelda.

 

[Iris]

But Sheik doesn't play like Zelda. I'm talking above movesets, not genuine characters. Zelda as her one, original self is important enough to stick to her magic-based roots completely rather than switching to a physical fighter to pay homage to the role of a one-time-only disguise.

 

[blueriku]

But Sheik doesn't play like Zelda. I'm talking above movesets, not genuine characters. Zelda as her one, original self is important enough to stick to her magic-based roots completely rather than switching to a physical fighter to pay homage to the role of a one-time-only disguise.

Actually switching to sheik is magic to which let Zelda make her skin darker, her eyes red, and as sheik physically able to endure more than Zelda could, as well as being more faster these are actual enhancements Zelda gets from transforming.

 

[Reyairia]

5 pages? Ah well, such is the tragedy of timezones and living in Europe.
The reason why I'm trying to defend Zelda is because I don't like it when people are favoring characters over the other and I'd be saying the same for any other character if they were in the same position. If Sheik were to return to Brawl the same way she appeared in Melee, because of players' experience with the past game, they'd still flip over to Sheik and not use Zelda at all, nerfed or not. That's why I'm so upset at the concept of Sheik being a transformation of Zelda. I wouldn't really be bothered if Zelda in Brawl would be almost entirely based on OOT in that concept alone.
However, I've dwelved a bit on the idea, and I have come up with a concept that may allow Sheik in as a transformation without hogging the spotlight;
1. We could have a stamina based thing like with Pokemon Trainer that forces the player to use Zelda like they should have.
2. Sheik could be a final smash, or part of it.
3. Sheik can only be used for a limited amount of time before she converts back to Zelda and the player has to wait a certain amount of time before being able to turn back into Sheik again.

Anything that forces the player not to ignore Zelda is fine in my book.

Midna is more important to Twilight Princess than Sheik ever was to Ocarina Of Time, Midna is more deserving this time around.

I say that Tippi from Super Paper Mario has more chances than Midna if you're basing on importance to the game.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

EDIT: Unintended post...

 

[SuperLink9]

Personally, I don't care whether they become mre dependant, or more independant. It could easily work both ways.

I'm sure that many Zelda/Shiek players here will go through a whole match as one & not change to the other, for one thing transforming takes too long for high level play, & the more you use one character, the better you are with them.

Personally, I don't see them as .5 characters, I see them both as characters, since I don't "rely" on their other half to play as them.

But they could make the balanced thing work so much better in Brawl, I'm not sure how, but Miyamoto made Super Mario Galaxy after we all wondered how the Mario series would ever evolve next. Sakurai might be a genius too

Well, he might be a Smash Bros genius too, I mean, he made Kirby, so he's already a genius

 

[blueriku]

superlink honestly i think your one of the few people i respect on these forums especially in the zelda section i have yet to come up with a way to counter any of your arguments and find myself to agree with you. anywho i just hope when sheik comes back that they take out a side b with something more useful and adjusting sheik the where she is harder to use but still good and zelda to have more prioity and power, maybe some spots of super armor here and there.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

superlink honestly i think your one of the few people i respect on these forums especially in the zelda section i have yet to come up with a way to counter any of your arguments and find myself to agree with you. anywho i just hope when sheik comes back that they take out a side b with something more useful and adjusting sheik the where she is harder to use but still good and zelda to have more prioity and power, maybe some spots of super armor here and there.

oh, I always found her side B very helpful in battle. Then again I'm not the best shiek player so I guess this proves it.

 

[gamer8]

I think that Zelda really needs a chance to shine, and that people should actually use Zelda.

Dude, Zelda sucked in melee, we're afraid she will in brawl, too. I NEVER play as zelda, only shiek.

 

[SuperLink9]

If Sakurai doesn't buff Zelda, then he's stupid. Don't worry, I'm sure the characters will be balanced out, a little if not perfectly.

A character is what you make of them. Sure Zelda isn't the ideal "n00b's choice" but as I keep saying, the best Zelda player is better than the great Fox players.

Anyone who says she's genuinly crap are people who can't be bothered to attempt improving with her. Like I said before, I'm neutral, there isn't one (Shiek or Zelda) I prefer to play as than the other.

& if Zelda is still sucky in Brawl, but without Shiek, that would make even LESS people play as her, going by that kind of thinking.

 

[HipsterKid]

1. We could have a stamina based thing like with Pokemon Trainer that forces the player to use Zelda like they should have.

What I don't like about this idea is that people who don't like using Zelda or cant' use Zelda HAVE to play as Zelda. The same could go for people who don't like using Sheik or have no idea how to use her. Of course, that can be fixed but if people aren't going to like the stamina-changing thing then aren't more people just going to drop her, being Zelda/Sheik?

 

[Drake3]

Personally, I don't see them as .5 characters, I see them both as characters, since I don't "rely" on their other half to play as them.

Like I said before, the concept was 0.5 and the reality was Sheik being a standalone character and Zelda being poor and gimpy. How that slipped by them I'll never know, but I'm sure it won't happen this time. You can't not learn from that mistake especially when you have 2 more transformation characters added.

oh, I always found her side B very helpful in battle. Then again I'm not the best shiek player so I guess this proves it.

If Sheik is to return I think her Side+B will too. I also think it'll probably be way more useful, have more range, and be able to tether.

A character is what you make of them. Sure Zelda isn't the ideal "n00b's choice" but as I keep saying, the best Zelda player is better than the great Fox players.

It would be a close match, but what about the best Zelda players vs the best Fox players? There's only so much mindgaming can do without a character that can back it up.

What I don't like about this idea is that people who don't like using Zelda or cant' use Zelda HAVE to play as Zelda. The same could go for people who don't like using Sheik or have no idea how to use her. Of course, that can be fixed but if people aren't going to like the stamina-changing thing then aren't more people just going to drop her, being Zelda/Sheik?

Good, more for me. Just kidding. But if you can't adapt to the rules of the game, then you don't deserve to play. If I had to learn Sheik, I would. The same thing will happen with Pokemon Trainer. The people who really want to play as Charizard or whatever specifically will have to learn how to play Squirtle and Ivysaur too. They're a team and as such you must learn how to use all of them effectively.

 

[Reyairia]

Dude, Zelda sucked in melee, we're afraid she will in brawl, too. I NEVER play as zelda, only shiek.

People like this are EXACTLY why I want to force people to play Zelda, and why I made this thread.

What I don't like about this idea is that people who don't like using Zelda or cant' use Zelda HAVE to play as Zelda. The same could go for people who don't like using Sheik or have no idea how to use her.

Isn't one point of the game is to learn how to use every different character? If I remember correctly you had to defeat classic and adventure mode with every character in Melee to complete the game, forcing people to use every single character. It isn't a stretch at all to force people to use Zelda, and it's exactly the same concept with Pokemon Trainer, and I don't see anyone having a problem with PT's character at all.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

But Sheik doesn't play like Zelda. I'm talking above movesets, not genuine characters. Zelda as her one, original self is important enough to stick to her magic-based roots completely rather than switching to a physical fighter to pay homage to the role of a one-time-only disguise.

Shiek is still Zelda with different clothes.

So Zelda has been winning all these tournaments all these years under a different name.

BUT... I do see your point, I'm just being technical and annoying, so just ignore me.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I don't get why some people are mad that Shiek apperantly steals Zelda's spotlight. What other character has the sweet *** ability to transform into a ninja??

 

[Circus]

I don't get why some people are mad that Shiek apperantly steals Zelda's spotlight. What other character has the sweet *** ability to transform into a ninja??

I think a lot of people just aren't thrilled by the fact that one of Zelda's own moves overshadows her as a whole character (in Melee). Zelda, being as critical as she is to her series, should probably be known for something that she does as her own true ego.

Yes, Sheik is technically Zelda, but we shouldn't have to sort through technicalities to find something about Zelda that we like. Zelda is MAGIC. She shouldn't have to turn into Sheik to do something worthwhile.

***Time for another infamous Berkus analogy***

It's like Superman needing to transform into Clark Kent to do anything useful. Yeah, they're the same person, but who's the ****ing superhero here?