Edgeguards

[DarkRunner00]

Dair has been nerfed in Brawl, obviously. But in melee, Dair didn't always chase off stage.

Though, Marth has an excellent off stage, edge guard... why does no one Dair? To at least add some variety...

I've discussed weeks ago, the backside of Dair lasts longer, is longer, and tips easier... why does no one kill with that? Of course, there's is the chance of missing and landing...

but I still spike almost 90% of the time and (I'm awful) don't practice spacing...

Also at around 120+% Dair (not spike), if hit below the opponent, sends them outward and usually kills anyway.

Also Dair, can spike when some one is coming out of a ledge, via drop -> jump DI (aerial attack), roll out, or... all the ways you get onto stage since platform

If I haven't made it clear, I'm talking about facing inwards ON STAGE
Lastly, I need someone to verify this:

Wolf's Up B, drags you along... if Marth went between ledge and Wolf's Up B, Would Marth always grab ledge?

It has for me a few time, I can't get someone to help me test... since my friends and I are lazy/bad/casual

 

[Conclusively]

Depends on the stage really. The lag from d-air is huge, so if your opponent doesn't die, they can usually stage spike you anyways. Also, if you do kill them, on stages like Final Destination, you're gonna struggle to recover properly, and get caught under the lip of FD. The cons outweigh the pros imo. It's useful if you know you're going to kill on a safe stage like Smashville though.

 

[VietGeek]

Also, regarding Wolf's Up+B. He will grab the ledge, but send you along with him so you can recover as well, unless the last part of the attack hits you. Then you may be stage spiked.

 

[DarkRunner00]

Depends on the stage really. The lag from d-air is huge, so if your opponent doesn't die, they can usually stage spike you anyways. Also, if you do kill them, on stages like Final Destination, you're gonna struggle to recover properly, and get caught under the lip of FD. The cons outweigh the pros imo. It's useful if you know you're going to kill on a safe stage like Smashville though.

i'm assuming, you mean if you do a off stage chase, and having to recover under such stages...

I only mean to dash to ledge, pivot, and wait to properly time dair...

And this works only if you know, a character won't tether, and they are slightly above the stage (rather than recovering below, becuase if they sweetspot their Up B then they're safe from this)

But I'm saying: say Falco or Fox illusion to stage, time Dair (facing away from them) and you should spike them. (hard to time, bad example)

Or... if Ike was supposedly going to roll back onto stage, if timed right when invincibility frames just wane, Dair will still spike and ignore slight stage properties (like Ganondorf's side b, suicide kill) When I say this, I mean it looks like he just went through and ignored a piece of the stage (FD)

There's a 5 second clip of this on youtube, should a low percentage spike on C. Falc.

 

[Nibbity]

*shudders* Fox and Falco illusion....You can't B down it, it's hard to Dair, let alone any other move to try to intercept it. If you're 1 second late to try to hit them before it starts, they can spike you and YOU'll end up dieing instead of them....

*cough* tips? *cough*

 

[Shaya]

*shudders* Fox and Falco illusion....You can't B down it, it's hard to Dair, let alone any other move to try to intercept it. If you're 1 second late to try to hit them before it starts, they can spike you and YOU'll end up dieing instead of them....

*cough* tips? *cough*

b-air.

If they're going for the edge just jumping on the edge itself is usually enough... otherwise bair them after letting go of the ledge.

 

[DarkRunner00]

It seems that everyone who Dair's has a thing for doing it off stage... (and there's super lag, so good luck recovering) But, if you face inward and Dair away, the backside of Marth's blade spike's easier due to large hit box (yes, if you're daring, pun not intended, just Dair facing away from them; off stage) but you don't actually have to leave the stage, his blade is so long that it extends beyond the ledge... so... ya, it's pretty safe... cuz the lag if you miss (and they grab onto ledge) will end at the same time with them returning onto the stage...

Bair is a good one, but again if missed - Falco's illusion will spike (Fox's doesn't)

I recommend staying on stage, Air Dodge, DI, and get ready to punish them... But iono that's not an edge guard really...

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, Edgeguarding Falco is super-easy . . . but maybe that's cause he's my second, so I know how he works.

Shorthop Nair shuts down Phantasm/Illusion onto the stage. I also like to walk backward out of their range and reverse Fsmash for a mindgame if they don't aim for ledge.

I have no qualms with chasing Fox and Falco far off stage. It just takes good timing and paying attention to not get hit by phantasm.

And of course, when all else fails, Dolphin Slash > everything the spacies have.

Of course, I'm now in the process of developing a new strategy against Spacies. See, I realized that they have garbage UpB due the startup lag, so they use sideB instead. If you force Spacies to use UpB, they should die at any percentage, if your edgeguard game is even half decent. So I'm experimenting with grab releasing near the edge.

If I grab a space animal trying to jump back onto the stage, or just near the edge in general, they fall to below the point where they can SideB, and I don't believe they get their jump back. This being said, it's a short trip to then drop and reverse dolphin slash back onto the stage, gimping them in the process. If you're accurate, and they don't tech, this should work at almost any percentage.

Now . . . if I can get my lazy bro to help me with testing, I could get some solid results and replays, and even see about grabbing them out of their SideB with stellar timing.

 

[Hype]

I usually don't try to stuff the pantasm I havent had much luck with it in the past. I either Edge hog, run back and pivot smash or jump of the stage after him if I know I can hit him during the starting lag of the phantasm. I'm gonna try the SH Nair though.

 

[Pierce7d]

Retreat the SH Nair for best results I find.

 

[IDK]

the last moment of wolf's upb can spike. also, if you are high enough percent, it will hit you off and you'll get stagespiked. at very low percentages when NOT hit by the last hit, i think that is when you would grab the edge. note that when you get spiked from above the edge and even shoot directly at it, you will not grab it unless you somehow airdodge before you get there. i did it once because some fool spiked me at the top of the screen lol. an upair and i was dead. anyway i MC'd out of instinct and got the edge.

 

[3xSwords]

I don't dair an illusion b/c the first time I did it I got a clash so I was like "wtf?" All that timing and I get a clash? So instead I just do a fair or f-tilt.

The only time I use dair is when I'm hanging on ledge, release ledge jump and dair. If I'm facing characters with ridiculous upb's like MK I usually don't attempt unless I still have my invincibility. Chasing off stage to dair isn't an amazing idea. Higher chance of SD. Just go for fair or nair. Dair really is only a momentum shifter or intimidation tactic used to weaken an enemies morale by a lot otherwise its just risky.

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, I spike often, but recently I've taken a liking to Dolphin Slash gimps.

After testing today, I find that you cannot grab Falco out of Phantasm, but Dolphin Slash ***** it. Tilts and Smashes (except up Smash) I think, but this is tricky timing. At worse, with Dolphin Slash, you dodge the Phantasm. If you were near the edge, you can just fall onto the ledge to avoid vulnerability frames of doom, even though Falco will still have to recover from Phantasm. Try to Dolphin Slash it on reaction.

Also, like I said before, grab releasing Falco at the edge while he has his jump will probably cause him to jump back and Phantasm at you. Shield this for free punishment. If he drops and begins to UpB, drop and Dolphin Slash stage spike for an easy gimp. If he jumps up at you, shield grab (and watch for Fair or Nair) and jab him, to force another ground break. This time he has no jump, in which case you drop to Dolphin Slash gimp.

I played horribly today, so I wasn't able to do this on Snake (though I still whooped his ***), but I believe it's even easier than Falco, since once you drop Snake, he has to UpB, which leads to easy spikes for veteran Marths. Chain throw him to the edge if he's @ 0, and then just hold him there so he can fall off.