Edge Hogging completely destroys tether recovery characters*EDITED*

[Coselm]

I heard you can not auto sweet spot if you hold down while you up b?

I have at least heard of confirmation of this with marth. Perhaps someone could try it with the tether characters?

I really hope that in all the time spent on this game, they did not ruin tether characters with this...

They should have just made it so that if the characters arent in invincibility frames all tethers knock them off while still grabbing the ledge, or better yet maybe you can disable auto sweet spot?

If you can disable auto sweet spotting with tether recoveries by holding down while you do it, then I hereby name that advanced technique coselm recovering (jk)

 

[Replacement100]

In theory, depending on how maneuverable Ivysaur's Side+B is, it could have a chance to knock the opponent from the ledge momentarily...(read: Is it like Link's boomerang?), and likewise, if Olimar's Down+B stalls falling, he could use it to get that purple, red or yellow pikmin to the front then Throw it.
Otherwise, they need momentum from moves, and probably DI Up.

It sure does seem like an oversight, eh?
This could also depend on the speed of a tether. If it is usable within reasonable frames (particularly during the moves' knockback), one could possibly Tether before an enemy reaches the edge.

As said, Brawl has only been out for a week and a bit. We're most likely missing a few fine points.

 

[tutata]

This is bad real bad, man whos testing the game. Captain Olimar just got put down even more : (
This adds alot of gayness to the game

 

[Mama]

This is bad real bad, man whos testing the game. Captain Olimar just got put down even more : (
This adds alot of gayness to the game

Games not out you don't don't know everything about it so stop jumping to conclusions...From what I hear Olimar's first pikmin will damage the edge hogger if it hits him and knock him down to death. Wait and see seriously.

 

[Finn Macool]

this could easily be changed before the american launch if it really was an oversight, they changed thing in melee between the ntsc and pal releases

 

[Hitaku]

I made a topic about this recovery in the Olimar character specific thread. The reason I made the topic was because in the beginning, when I first saw this horrible tether recovery I was really worried for the characters that used it. I have had Brawl for about 7 days now and after my time playing I can safely say I am not worried.

In Melee edge hogging was a huge issue, and while its still an issue Brawl characters are more floaty and can get back to the stage much easier (people run after people in the air for kills rather then waiting at the ledge). This being said, my good friend mains Olimar and I kill him sometimes because of this. However, I kill him MUCH less then I did day one. My point is, for all people that have yet to play Brawl, this is not as bad as it sounds. Does it suck? Yes. Will it break the character? Not at all.

Something to note for some worried future Olimar players, Olimar's Up+B also moves you forward slightly. While you can only do it once I have seen it save my friend many times now.

Edit: The new Air Dodging system helps with this.

Olimar has his side B to knock them off so he can recover and ivysaur has his razor leaf too. That might help them.

This is true, its easier for Ivysaur then for Olimar but it can be done with both. Olimar players need to first call a purple Pikmin to the front of the line before hand though. Seeing as rearranging pikmin causes no lag, its something smart for all Olimar players to do while they are coming back.

I'm normally against patching for fighters cause it can seriously destroy existing metagames, but this is too much. Olimar for all intents and purposes was an excellent character but has now basically been reduced to crap due to an obvious design flaw. Even if we discover methods to get Olimar on the ledge I very much doubt it would prevent gimping enough to make him viable.

Hopefully this will be addressed. I doubt it will though.

Maybe things will change as competitive play gets more involved, but at the moment its really not as bad as you think it is (or rather as bad as I think you think it is). Olimar is a very strong character other then this and for the reasons I stated above the ledge issue is not "as" bad. In my opinion people will be able to play him fine.

Games not out you don't don't know everything about it so stop jumping to conclusions...From what I hear Olimar's first pikmin will damage the edge hogger if it hits him and knock him down to death. Wait and see seriously.

Olimar's pikmin will hit the person if they are edge hogging, but it will not kill them (unless they are at a really high percent) and it will not latch on. Just thought I would clarify.

 

[Mama]

If it was an oversight I don't think it should be changed in any other release since that would cause too many inconsistencies in the versions. If theres a flaw adapt. Its not the end of the wolrd if you can't up through an edge hog seriously. And I already knew Olimar wouldn't be able to latch on after hitting someone who is edge hogging but I was just unsure if the person would get gimped and die.

 

[Hitaku]

If it was an oversight I don't think it should be changed in any other release since that would cause too many inconsistencies in the versions. If theres a flaw adapt. Its not the end of the world if you can't up through an edge hog seriously. And I already knew Olimar wouldn't be able to latch on after hitting someone who is edge hogging but I was just unsure if the person would get gimped and die.

Well, in some cases its more difficult then to just "adapt" to a flaw as large as that. Luckily, Brawls new physics engine helps with recovery's so its more plausible.

 

[pictish freak]

nb: If this does completely ruin Pikmin, make ivysaur/red unworkable and anyone else that relies on tether recovery, and isn't an oversight, and isn't fixed -- so what?

I mean, yeah, that's awful news if you were planning to play them. That said, lots of characters sucked in melee and we just got on with it. So Mewtwo was never gonna win any tournaments - melee was a fantastic game regardless. I highly doubt that the entire cast will be balanced and we'll have a tier list that reads 'tier 1' with nothing else. I suspect no one else seriously does either, as most people have hunches about what characters will be best, meaning others will be worst. Ideally, everyone would be exactly equally viable to win a tournament but I don't see it happening.

However, it is my inclination that we are so incredibly early into brawl and all suck at the game so incredibly much for now that things that look good and look bad right now will have no correlation to what is actually good or bad besides coincidence.

 

[Mama]

Well, in some cases its more difficult then to just "adapt" to a flaw as large as that. Luckily, Brawls new physics engine helps with recovery's so its more plausible.

Yea that was my point lol. I don't really see this as gimping Olimar or the other tether recovery characters since air play is so large in this game. I'm sure someone will come up with a way or even many ways around something like that with Brawl's engine. Thats what I'm waiting to see.

 

[Senshuu]

I was afraid of something like this. >_> I didn't know if tethers were automatic or not (looked like it), and I was hoping there was at least an option for manual so you could do whatever with them, even if I would suck more controlling it.

There's a way around everything, though. I don't see myself using those characters in particular much, anyway. And I won't edgehog just to kill someone using them, either...unless I'm angry. >D

The more you think of it, the more it makes sense, sort of. You can't tether to a ledge that's taken up by a character, or to the character him/herself. So I doubt it'll be changed for our release or anyone else's. If that's the case, just try to suck less with tether characters. Simple?!

 

[shadydentist]

When melee was first released, there was concern that shiek was too good to the point where she would become the only viable character. By the end, she wasn't even top tier. Things have a way of working themselves out.

 

[Mama]

When melee was first released, there was concern that shiek was too good to the point where she would become the only viable character. By the end, she wasn't even top tier. Things have a way of working themselves out.

Yep Yep. I really don't see any need to fret about this issue so much.

 

[Hitaku]

However, it is my inclination that we are so incredibly early into brawl and all suck at the game so incredibly much for now that things that look good and look bad right now will have no correlation to what is actually good or bad besides coincidence.

This is a very good point, everything is based on how we the players evolve the game. Only time is going to tell us how the flaw in tether recovery will effects these characters.

Its important for us to remember that worrying never solved anything. If you plan to main these characters then do so and evolve/adapt with them. I personally look at it this way, if you planned to main Olimar (an example) then you probably thought you would enjoy his play style rather then because he would be making top tier. Worst case scenario you will have a fun alt character to play with in friendlies. This game is going to be out for a long time guys, there will be plenty of time to switch mains down the road.

 

[IllidR]

Well I'm definitely going to be maining Olimar so this certainly will be a big issue and will gimp my recovery severly... but I'll find a way around it. I'm not going to let something like recovery stop me from playing my favorite character.

 

[RPK]

I would have to say that this sucks for characters with tether recoveries =\ Seriously, if someone is hogging the ledge, you dont get to use your recovery...Thats sucks big time ._.

 

[kmkzSP1K3R]

How far below the ledge (vertical wise) do you have to be for a tether to sweetspot the ledge?

Can it sweetspot if you're AT ledge level?

If you're below ledge level but you're totally not facing the ledge, will you still sweetspot?

 

[Hitaku]

Can it sweetspot if you're AT ledge level?

If you're below ledge level but you're totally not facing the ledge, will you still sweetspot?

Yes is the answer to both questions.

 

[MasterCheeze]

Maybe after you hang onto the edge a bit (after your invincibility frames are done), Ivysaur can use his Vine Whip and drag you down.

 

[iron blade]

HA HA HA that sucks for Olimar and ZSS. If you're using Ivysaur you could swap pokemon and get back on the ledge.

 

[Hitaku]

Maybe after you hang onto the edge a bit (after your invincibility frames are done), Ivysaur can use his Vine Whip and drag you down.

He doesn't have any mid air moves that would drag down sadly. =(

HA HA HA that sucks for Olimar and ZSS. If you're using Ivysaur you could swap pokemon and get back on the ledge.

Thats not true, you can't swap Pokemon in the air.

 

[Puddin Master]

Argh. They should have made it possible to stick to the edgehoggers feet. I've stated that idea before. But when a tether recovery character is being edgehogged, they should make it possible to use their recovery's to cling to the edgehogger's feet.

 

[Thinkaman]

I like how people automatically assume that this is completely unintentional and a total oversight by Sakurai and the team that designed the game. Gee, the notion that characters could have strengths and weaknesses, what nonsense!

How is this any worse from the laughable recoveries of other characters, such as Falcon or Ganondorf?

 

[Dan-E]

I like how people automatically assume that this is completely unintentional and a total oversight by Sakurai and the team that designed the game. Gee, the notion that characters could have strengths and weaknesses, what nonsense!

How is this any worse from the laughable recoveries of other characters, such as Falcon or Ganondorf?

Because Falcon and Ganondorf can recover with their upBs if there's someone on the edge....?

 

[Senshuu]

Argh. They should have made it possible to stick to the edgehoggers feet. I've stated that idea before. But when a tether recovery character is being edgehogged, they should make it possible to use their recovery's to cling to the edgehogger's feet.

So they can let go and kill you!

 

[Burning Soul]

Well, can't olimar throw a pikmin before he grabs the edge?

 

[Thinkaman]

Because Falcon and Ganondorf can recover with their upBs if there's someone on the edge....?

If Ganondorf or Falcon recover, and you were already over there on the edge, yer doin' it wrong.

 

[iron blade]

Thats not true, you can't swap Pokemon in the air.

Really? I thought I saw someone do it in a video...

 

[Losnar]

Well, can't olimar throw a pikmin before he grabs the edge?

Try reading all the replies before you post. That's been discussed.

 

[Help!]

I think edge hogging is totally fine.

Specifically for Olimar, I think it balances out his sheer damage-racking capabilities and pretty nasty smash attacks. If he had great recovery too, he'd be such an unstoppable beast. I mean, Falco and Captain Falcon had very poor recovery in Melee, but they were very highly tiered.

Well the thing about that was at least they could jump back onto the stage wihtout sweetspotting meaning they have a 3rd jump. If you gimp olimar zzs and ivysaur they wont have a 3rd jump and have no shot to get on the stage if they are below it. They like jiggly and yoshi with up b but still dont have a really high 2nd jump for yoshi or 5 or so jumps wiht jiggly.

 

[Thinkaman]

And? Olimar, ZSS, and PT all have very massive advantages in other categories of their character. The fact that they also have disadvantages, like Falcon and Ganondorf or even Spanimals as pointed out is bad how?

 

[UltiMario]

Good thing I'm going to use quite a bit of Meta Knight.
I am going to **** Tether Characters REALLY HARD

 

[icy_icicle]

In regards to Olimar, I highly doubt that this is as much of a hindrance as everyone thinks it is. I played Brawl today, and experimented with Olimar and his recovery.

Many people have already mentioned throwing a purple pikmin, but this seems irrational to me for three reasons:

1. You have to get your purple pikmin to the front, which is hard when the pikmin are bunched up behind you or when you are outside of the stage. In the situation that you are in a magnifying glass, you can't see your pikmin, further complicating the rearrangement of your pikmin due to lack of time and the possibility of edge guarding.

2. you will lose the purple pikmin, shortening your tether and diminishing your chances of recovery slightly.

3. While you can get used to the arc of the pikmin, it is a risky throw that you cannot guarantee will connect; missing, however, would be disastrous.

Having said that, why isn't it possible to simply fair the characters on the ledge? Olimar's fair is quick, powerful, and doesn't shorten your recovery. The edgehogger doesn't have very many options (NOTE: I noticed that in Brawl the amount of invincibility frames of grabbing the ledge have been reduced significantly, not to mention it is much easier to hit someone hanging on the edge, for reasons that I don't understand) as he will either be hit off the edge (allowing Olimar to tether) or have to roll, in which case Olimar has enough time to tether anyway. Peach players created a similar "AT" for Peach in which she can fair the edgehogger and then umbrella, so I don't see why this wouldn't work for Olimar's tether.

I'm basing this on the assumption that the Olimar player will have the maximum number of pikmin at his disposal, as they are quite easy to produce in a short amount of time (~1.5 seconds to pull out 6).

What do you think? It seems more plausible to me than throwing a purple pikmin.

As for Ivysaur or Zamus, whatever. Olimar is way cooler.

 

[joeysmash]

everythings gonna be alright.

 

[Ryuker]

Well the thing about that was at least they could jump back onto the stage wihtout sweetspotting meaning they have a 3rd jump. If you gimp olimar zzs and ivysaur they wont have a 3rd jump and have no shot to get on the stage if they are below it. They like jiggly and yoshi with up b but still dont have a really high 2nd jump for yoshi or 5 or so jumps wiht jiggly.

ZSS does she can use her Down B.

 

[nyhustler208]

In regards to Olimar, I highly doubt that this is as much of a hindrance as everyone thinks it is. I played Brawl today, and experimented with Olimar and his recovery.

Many people have already mentioned throwing a purple pikmin, but this seems irrational to me for three reasons:

1. You have to get your purple pikmin to the front, which is hard when the pikmin are bunched up behind you or when you are outside of the stage. In the situation that you are in a magnifying glass, you can't see your pikmin, further complicating the rearrangement of your pikmin due to lack of time and the possibility of edge guarding.

2. you will lose the purple pikmin, shortening your tether and diminishing your chances of recovery slightly.

3. While you can get used to the arc of the pikmin, it is a risky throw that you cannot guarantee will connect; missing, however, would be disastrous.

Having said that, why isn't it possible to simply fair the characters on the ledge? Olimar's fair is quick, powerful, and doesn't shorten your recovery. The edgehogger doesn't have very many options (NOTE: I noticed that in Brawl the amount of invincibility frames of grabbing the ledge have been reduced significantly, not to mention it is much easier to hit someone hanging on the edge, for reasons that I don't understand) as he will either be hit off the edge (allowing Olimar to tether) or have to roll, in which case Olimar has enough time to tether anyway. Peach players created a similar "AT" for Peach in which she can fair the edgehogger and then umbrella, so I don't see why this wouldn't work for Olimar's tether.

I'm basing this on the assumption that the Olimar player will have the maximum number of pikmin at his disposal, as they are quite easy to produce in a short amount of time (~1.5 seconds to pull out 6).

What do you think? It seems more plausible to me than throwing a purple pikmin.

As for Ivysaur or Zamus, whatever. Olimar is way cooler.

THAT IS Another good way, this olimar recovery is scaring me seriously we olimar or other tether players need to find away around this or it will be or defeat

im maining olimar and i dnt want to keep getting defeated by somebody edgeguarding me to death 100% of the time

 

[Dan-E]

If Ganondorf or Falcon recover, and you were already over there on the edge, yer doin' it wrong.

i don't understand...

 

[Thinkaman]

Ganondorf and Falcon are incredibly easy to edge guard, at least in melee. Against many characters (Shiek, Marth, Peach, and Jiggs come to mind) , them being off the stage to any substantial degree can be considered a lost stock.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

It's easy to recover with Ivysaur. Just use down B and BAM, you have wings!

 

[Itakio]

I don't think you can switch in the air...