~Edge Guarding: An Overrated "Tactic"~

[~ Gheb ~]

As a Wolf player I often have to read (in other characters match-up discussions) how easy my character is supposed to gimp, which bothers me because it's not true - not only for Wolf but for virtually every other character in the game. I'm sure most Olimar and Falco players feel the same as I do. It's just terrible to read that characters like Zelda are supposed to edgeguard these character easily.
To put an end to this nonsense I will write a little essay on edgeguarding and why it barely matters - neither in math-up discussions nor in the MK-ban debate. I will take MK as an example most of the time, since he's the best character for edgeguarding and he has the best options over characters, who try to recover.
I will also bring up video evidence from high level play to show that my claims have a strong basis as well but I also will show how to not get gimped with any character and trust me: it's easy to do.

I'm not saying that Edgeguarding is a useless tactic and shouldn't be used. It's obvious that some characters are more easily edgeguarded than others and that some obviously have better recoveries. The point is that many people still think that edgeguarding will turn a match-up magically in your favour. A person who gets knocked offstage is at a bad position no doubt.

There are more ways to deal with it than a good bunch of people seem to realize though.

The key to not get gimped is:


Directional Influence

...or just DI. I will not explain how it works. If you don't know how to DI you shouldn't read this. Ok, but as a reader you know how to DI, right? Very good. So all you have to do is to DI upwards when getting knocked off the stage. Most players do this a lot becasue it will put you in a better position than without DI - and most of all: It grants you a safe return to the stage against any character, with any character. Here's a video to show how it works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-t7pT4t-Hs&feature=related

If you stop at 0:03 you'll see that Bowsers position is very safe and than he has more options to return to the stage than his opponent can cover.

Keep in mind that this kind of DI is absolutely required to return safely: If you fail to DI like this you'll have no more options than your opponent. In a bad case (when your character is below tha stage) you'll be very easily gimped. Therefore you should keep in mind that a safe return is only guaranteed if you DI like this: Upwards and a bit towards the stage.
Keep Bowsers position on the Video @0:03 in mind. If you manage to get in such a position after getting knocked off the stage everything's fine. If not, then you're doing it wrong and should practise DI.

Now let's assume the opponent is an excellent edgeguard such as Meta Knight and you want to get back to the stage. Keep in mind all the options you have and you'll see that you'll always have more options than him when recovering.

These are your options:

- FF Airdodge through a coming attack: This is the easiest way to avoid getting hit again. The higher you are the easier it goes.

- Use an attack that brings you to the stage. I'm not talking about a recovery move but rather a move like the Bowser Bomb or G&Ws dair. This is risky but can deal damage to the edgeguarding opponents. Characters who have such moves are Bowser, G&W, Zamus, Sonic, Sheik. It's risky so you shouldn't do it too often but it can work wonders if you use it rarely.

- Jump Airdodge. You can't change your momentum anymore via airdodging but you can still use your jump to change directions while airdodging. That way, you will not only be able to avoid most of the attack but you can also change your direction while doing so.

- Use your recovery move though not all characters can do it. It wouldn't be smart to recover if you are Marth. If the opponent chases you in the air recovering can still be useful for some character though. It will put him in a position where he's at the very center of the stage. If they fast fall they will be in a safe position. I admit it's not a good way to get past an attempt to gimp but it's still a viable option as long as you dont overuse it

You should note that you can still take damage while performing any of these recovery attempts. This is unavoidable. It just prevent you from getting gimped.
Once you're behind the opponents attack you're safe. If you didn't use your recovery move before you can use it to get back to the center of the stage, with only a little more damage.


Examples / Proof

Ok, now we all dislike theroycrafting because it's useless and has little relevance in a real battle. Thus we should look at examples how this works at top level play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LCrX4WjEdY

What we're seing is a battle between two of the most talented players of the West Coast: DSF and SK92 playing Falco vs MK. This is quite a popular match-up and often played for good reasons: Falco is one of MKs hardest match-up's but MK is also one of Falco's hardest match-up's. It's very close to even unless planking is a legal tactic (which should never be the case). A newbie will probably tell you that this match-up is about 7/3 in MKs favour because of Edgegaurding but as the video shows SK92's Falco never got gimped or Edguarded at all. that's why many people who play on lower levels have more problems with MK than they should. In fact this match-up is about 55/45 MKs favour but no worse for Falco.

If you look @1:45 you'll see what I was talking about. After getting thrown off the stage SK92DIed upwards and - as a consequence - was completely safe. He had many options and chose to drop down and recover towards the ledge. There was nothing DSF could do. If he tried to chase him SK92 could've just airdodge FF through the attack. If DSF wanted to hog the ledge SK92 could've just recovered earlier. Either way, Falco couldn've been gimped in this example - and DSF is at the point of writing this considered top3 in the U.S. He used the best edgeguard in the game and never gimped Falco, who has one of the worst recoveries in the game. Furthermore he didn't even deal damage after knocking him off the stage. That's pretty pathetic: If this is supposed to be the best edgeguard in the game you can already tell that edgeguarding as a whole can't mean much. And it doesn't. Copare it to the number of Marth's successful edgegaurding attempts in Melee - MK doesn't come even close to that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK5H3L_b-64&feature=related

Here we have an even more drastic example: Olimar vs MK. Olimar is generally considered one of the most gimpable characters in the game. In this match atomsk didn't get gimped just once. And we're still talking about the best edgeguard in the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd-0vEfge2M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCXOI_w79l0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swRlav0qs6U

Good games with good players. Good edgeguards (MK, Mario) and characters who are supposed to be gimpable (Wolf, Mario, Lucario) yet only one character gets gimped and it's ironically MK.


Now I'm not saying that gimping doesn't happen at all in Brawl. It's just completely overrated. If you debate match-up's it shouldn't matter as much as people make it look like. Especially if people say that MK > Snake because of Edgeguarding. I doesn't work that way. If you still think that edgeguarding happens a lot in Brawl I advice you to watch some Melee videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuREBIwqbu0

...

It's beyond compare. Edgeguarding is overrated. It's there but it barely impacts match-up's and should therefore not be considered as a major factor.

 

[Yuna]

If my Zelda Fairs (or Bair) you in the face (sweetspot) and you have 80% before the Fair connects and it hasn't been eroded by repetitive use, you're going to die. If I Dair you (sweetspotted) in the face, you're going to get Meteored and I can follow it up with, oh, another Dair, I guess, since my 2nd jump and Up B will allow me to survive it. Then there's Din's Fire if I charge it enough, it's pretty powerful.

Uair is devastating and it works as an edgeguard if I go down low while you recover from the side.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying: Edgeguading is not overrated. Edgeguarding can be great and deadly. It's just much worse than what it was in Melee. It's still important.

Also, nobody cares if you can pull out single videos where some players manage to not get gimped by characters who are supposedly be able to gimp them easily.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If my Zelda Fairs (or Bair) you in the face (sweetspot) and you have 80% before the Fair connects and it hasn't been eroded by repetitive use, you're going to die. If I Dair you (sweetspotted) in the face, you're going to get Meteored and I can follow it up with, oh, another Dair, I guess, since my 2nd jump and Up B will allow me to survive it. Then there's Din's Fire if I charge it enough, it's pretty powerful.

Uair is devastating and it works as an edgeguard if I go down low while you recover from the side.

Oh, show me IRL, against good players.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying: Edgeguading is not overrated. Edgeguarding can be great and deadly. It's just much worse than what it was in Melee. It's still important.

Then please show me where it is match-up breaking

Also, nobody cares if you can pull out single videos where some players manage to not get gimped by characters who are supposedly be able to gimp them easily.

I could easily "pull out" 20 or more of these videos.

 

[Yuna]

Oh, show me IRL, against good players.

If you're not good enough at Brawl to know that what I just said is the 100% indisputable truth, then you have no place debating in this thread (which you yourself created). Things like these do not need videos for proof. It's the equivalent of a scientist demanding video proof of gravity existing.

Then please show me where it is match-up breaking

Failure at reading comprehension is always funny. When did I ever say this? You mentioned it, I didn't touch upon it. I'm not arguing against every single thing you said in the OP just because I argued against certain parts of it.

I could easily "pull out" 20 or more of these videos.

I could pull out 100s where edeguarding work. Your point being?

 

[Pearl Floatzel]

If you're Zelda, only an idiot will get hit by your sweetspotted aerials regularly while you're trying to edgeguard them. They have very specific spacing and are almost telegraphed, so if your opponent DI's upward, it's hard to get them and you into position, bait them into an airdodge, keep your spacing, and then aerial. It might happen every so often, but you're not pulling it out every match on every character.

Din's Fire, maybe. A missed airdodge, punish, okay. But as he said, the point here is edgeguarding to kill. It's okay to get damage. If you're against a Pit, you're getting a few percent. No matter what.

So like he said, it's a tactic, but definitely not as good as it used to be.

 

[Yuna]

If you're Zelda, only an idiot will get hit by your sweetspotted aerials regularly while you're trying to edgeguard them. They have very specific spacing and are almost telegraphed, so if your opponent DI's upward, it's hard to get them and you into position, bait them into an airdodge, keep your spacing, and then aerial. It might happen every so often, but you're not pulling it out every match on every character.

I ever said it was easy. I presented specific scenarios where edgeguarding with Zelda would be devastating. Fair and Bair being telegraphed? Since when? Dair? Not so telegraphed, but sluggish. Uair is telegraphed.

You cannot always recover high. If you're recovering at stage-level or close to it, you will risk getting hit by an aerial from Zelda. And, no, Zelda's aerials are not as hard to sweetspot as some people seem to think.

Unless you count "Zelda jumping towards you" as telegraphing, you cannot prevent yourself from getting Faired or Baired in the face every single time or even that easily.

Din's Fire, maybe. A missed airdodge, punish, okay. But as he said, the point here is edgeguarding to kill. It's okay to get damage. If you're against a Pit, you're getting a few percent. No matter what.

Unless Pit has 80% before the move hits. Then he's pretty dead on almost all legal stages no matter the DI.

So like he said, it's a tactic, but definitely not as good as it used to be.

He also cites specific videos of Olimar vs. MK and claims they prove MK's edgeguarding isn't really all that, as if it mattered.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If you're not good enough at Brawl to know that what I just said is the 100% indisputable truth, then you have no place debating in this thread (which you yourself created).

I'm better at Brawl than you. And I know what you're saying is not true because I'm better. What you're saying isn't the truth. If you get gimped by Zelda, you're stupid

Things like these do not need videos for proof. It's the equivalent of a scientist demanding video proof of gravity existing.

Many things in life imply the existence of gravity. You don't need a video because you can't see it. Gravity is always there. It's a state. Edgeguarding is an action...a performance

Terrible comparision

Failure at reading comprehension is always funny.

You say it.

I could pull out 100s where edeguarding work. Your point being?

Show them. They have to be on a high level of course and not just some newb people playing scrubby.

If you know the difference

Isn't that what he said, Yuna?

Pshhhhhht. Yuna can't handle facts very well!

And if you're Zelda, only an idiot will get hit by your sweetspotted aerials regularly while you're trying to edgeguard them. They have very specific spacing and are almost telegraphed, so if your opponent DI's upward, it's hard to get them and you into position, bait them into an airdodge, keep your spacing, and then aerial. It might happen every so often, but you're not pulling it out every match on every character.

It's sad that you have to explain this again in my place...I'm really sorry

Din's Fire, maybe. A missed airdodge, punish, okay. But as he said, the point here is edgeguarding to kill. It's okay to get damage. If you're against a Pit, you're getting a few percent. No matter what.

So like he said, it's a tactic, but definitely not as good as it used to be.

Indeed, that's all I can say

 

[Yuna]

I'm better at Brawl than you. And I know what you're saying is not true because I'm better. What you're saying isn't the truth. If you get gimped by Zelda, you're stupid

Apperently you're not smarter than a 5th grader. 5th graders can usually read. Where exactly in my posts did I ever say Zelda can easily gimp people? When did I ever even mention Zelda gimping people, at all?

I presented specific examples of when Zelda hitting you in the face while edgeguarding you will kill you, thus, where edgeguarding is quite good. Nothing in what I said can be disputed.

I suggest you re-read what I said instead of continuing to argue against your misguided interpretation of it.

Many things in life imply the existence of gravity. You don't need a video because you can't see it. Gravity is always there. It's a state. Edgeguarding is an action...a performance

Many things in Brawl imply die you from Zelda's fully powered Fair at 80% before it hits unless you're playing on a really lage stage, too. No video is needed to prove this. Boot up the game in Training Mode and test it out yourself.

Show them. They have to be on a high level of course and not just some newb people playing scrubby.

Re-read what I said. I presented situations where, if a certain attack hits, you will die no matter the DI. It requires no video proof. It does not require me to perform it on M2K. Because no matter how he DIs, if he's sweetspotted by my Fair at 80% while he's being edeguarded (and, thus, not at the center of the stage), he will die on most legal stages.

Exactly what part of the follow confused you:
"If my Zelda Fairs (or Bair) you in the face (sweetspot) and you have 80% before the Fair connects and it hasn't been eroded by repetitive use, you're going to die. If I Dair you (sweetspotted) in the face, you're going to get Meteored and I can follow it up with, oh, another Dair, I guess, since my 2nd jump and Up B will allow me to survive it. Then there's Din's Fire if I charge it enough, it's pretty powerful."

Exactly what part of it requires video proof? Exactly what part of it won't work on a great player (notice the use of the words "If <Zelda> <hits you with this move> <at these percentages> <and sweetspots>"...)? Exactly what will M2K be able to do if I sweetspot him with a Fair when he's at 80% and off the stage that someone less good won't be able to?

English is my 3rd language. Is it your 10th?

 

[Yuna]

Just to drive the point across:
Gheb 01, read the following paragraph closely. Twice if needed:
"If my Zelda Fairs (or Bair) you in the face (sweetspot) and you have 80% before the Fair connects and it hasn't been eroded by repetitive use, you're going to die. If I Dair you (sweetspotted) in the face, you're going to get Meteored and I can follow it up with, oh, another Dair, I guess, since my 2nd jump and Up B will allow me to survive it. Then there's Din's Fire if I charge it enough, it's pretty powerful."

Only when and if you've been able to understand exactly what it says can you then reply to it. Because, really, your replies insofar have been on things resembling the things I said in that paragraph, not to the paragraph itself.

Stop making stuff up in your mind as if I'll accept that what you think I said is what I actually said. It isn't.

Not once did I claim any of these things are easy to do. Not once did I say they will hit regularly. Not once did I say any Zelda can do it on any player no matter how good they are. I presented examples of when Zelda's edgeguarding will kill you no matter the DI to show that edgeuarding, even with Zelda, can still be effective.

I suggest you start taking what I write at face value instead of "interpreting" it in your mind first before replying to it because you will then be replying to something I never actually said.

 

[Vincent46]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNxQJfcz_vE# @ 5.14

/topic

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yuna: Isn't the topic that gimping is overrated? Because technically, you don't (directly) refute this statement.

 

[Cirno]

A gimp is a low percent kill resulting from edge guarding.

Edge guarding is a tactic used to prevent your opponent from grabbing the edge.


It is not an overrated tactic, but I do believe several characters ability to edgeguard are overrated.


Wolf IS easily edge guarded by Zelda. Gimped?
Depends on the players.

Once knocked off the stage against Zelda, DI or not Wolf will have very limited options against her projectile and edgehogging. Of course it's possible to make it to the ledge but not very likely considering his recoveries. Landing on the stage can be considered a goal when edgeguarding against Wolf considering his lag. Especially for Zelda seeing as during this lag, she can now send you back off the stage.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Stop arguing with Yuna. This will only fill this thread with useless posts.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna: Isn't the topic that gimping is overrated? Because technically, you don't (directly) refute this statement.

The topic is that edgeuarding is overrated. Gimping =/= Edgeguarding (Edgeguarding = Gimping (sometimes)).

And I never said I was refuting that edgeguarding is overrated (by some). Everything is overrated (by some). However, Gheb 01 is underrating edgeguarding and using flawed rhetoric and "proof" to prove the "ineffeciency" of edgeguarding. He also seems to think that airdodging will easily save you from getting edgeguarded, as if the opponent won't be smart enough to sometimes not always attack at first change by try to intercept that airdodge instead.

Edgeguarding is no longer as good as it was in Melee. I never argued this. Edgeguarding requires more "mindgaming" and interception and reading now. I never said otherwise. Edgeguarding works differently now than in Melee, duh.

However, Gheb's argument is still flawed.

 

[colored blind]

Funny note...In the Inui/Atomsk matchup, Atomsk loses the set due to edgeguarding.

Edgeguarding isn't as effective or as useful as it once was, and noobs let it destroy them more than they should because of improper DI, but it still affects matchups quite a bit, and is an integral part of high level play.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The topic is that edgeuarding is overrated. Gimping =/= Edgeguarding (Edgeguarding = Gimping (sometimes)).

And I never said I was refuting that edgeguarding is overrated (by some). Everything is overrated (by some). However, Gheb 01 is underrating edgeguarding and using flawed rhetoric and "proof" to prove the "ineffeciency" of edgeguarding. He also seems to think that airdodging will easily save you from getting edgeguarded, as if the opponent won't be smart enough to sometimes not always attack at first change by try to intercept that airdodge instead.

Edgeguarding is no longer as good as it was in Melee. I never argued this. Edgeguarding requires more "mindgaming" and interception and reading now. I never said otherwise. Edgeguarding works differently now than in Melee, duh.

However, Gheb's argument is still flawed.

I disagree with the way you choose to argue.

I choose not to elaborate.

 

[shanus]

yeah edgeguarding isn't important at all... rofl, these few examples are barely proof. Quit the theorycrafting because edgeguarding is still important, not as much as it used to be in melee, but still important. whats the point of this thread?

 

[Yuna]

I disagree with the way you choose to argue.

I choose not to elaborate.

Ouh, great reply. You disagree with something I do but refuse to state exactly what it is you disagree with. I disagree with your ability to comprehend English. I won't elaborate on that either.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Zelda is terrible at gimping people, and who the hell said she was good at it?

She outright KOs or doesn't. Maybe one in a hundred matches she will get a gimp in.

Her only possibly way of gimping would be dsmash----->edgehog, because dsmash can typically send characters with crap recoverys to their doom.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Apperently you're not smarter than a 5th grader. 5th graders can usually read. Where exactly in my posts did I ever say Zelda can easily gimp people? When did I ever even mention Zelda gimping people, at all?

I presented specific examples of when Zelda hitting you in the face while edgeguarding you will kill you, thus, where edgeguarding is quite good.

It. won't. happen. against. good. players. period.

I said it before but it's apparently too hard to read...for YOU

Nothing in what I said can be disputed.

Almost everything you say can be disputed. People are just tired of doing so.

I suggest you re-read what I said instead of continuing to argue against your misguided interpretation of it.

Drawin wrong conclusions once again? I read what you say. If you say it the way I interpreted it, it's wrong. If you meant something else it has no relevance to the topic.

Maybe you should actually play the game seriously?

Many things in Brawl imply die you from Zelda's fully powered Fair at 80% before it hits unless you're playing on a really lage stage, too. No video is needed to prove this. Boot up the game in Training Mode and test it out yourself.

This has 0 to do with Edgeguarding and just as much with gravity. It's - like most of the things you write - useless information.

Re-read what I said. I presented situations where, if a certain attack hits, you will die no matter the DI.

And? This has nothing to do with Edgeguarding. You bury the stuff you want to say - which is crap in almost every case - with pseudo relevant stuff and examples nobody cares about.

It requires no video proof. It does not require me to perform it on M2K. Because no matter how he DIs, if he's sweetspotted by my Fair at 80% while he's being edeguarded (and, thus, not at the center of the stage), he will die on most legal stages.

And why would anybody let that happen? Who is so stupid to get Edgeguarded by Zelda's fsmash?

Exactly what part of the follow confused you:
"If my Zelda Fairs (or Bair) you in the face (sweetspot) and you have 80% before the Fair connects and it hasn't been eroded by repetitive use, you're going to die. If I Dair you (sweetspotted) in the face, you're going to get Meteored and I can follow it up with, oh, another Dair, I guess, since my 2nd jump and Up B will allow me to survive it. Then there's Din's Fire if I charge it enough, it's pretty powerful."

Nothing confuses me about this. It just has nothing to do with the subject.

Exactly what part of it requires video proof? Exactly what part of it won't work on a great player (notice the use of the words "If <Zelda> <hits you with this move> <at these percentages> <and sweetspots>"...)? Exactly what will M2K be able to do if I sweetspot him with a Fair when he's at 80% and off the stage that someone less good won't be able to?

It won't happen. Stuoid players get fsmashed by Zelda, while trying to recover.

English is my 3rd language. Is it your 10th?

No u

Yuna: Isn't the topic that gimping is overrated? Because technically, you don't (directly) refute this statement.

Don't talk to Yuna. He will just write irrelevant stuff. I don't need more of this crap

A gimp is a low percent kill resulting from edge guarding.

Edge guarding is a tactic used to prevent your opponent from grabbing the edge.

The prime goal of Edgeguarding used to be gimping.

Many players still think like that. That's why I'm writing this in the first place.

It is not an overrated tactic, but I do believe several characters ability to edgeguard are overrated.

On the contrary. MKs ability to Edgeguard/Gimp somebody is not overrated. But it rarely happens because the tactic is overrated.

Wolf IS easily edge guarded by Zelda.

No

Gimped?
Depends on the players.

Yeah

Once knocked off the stage against Zelda, DI or not Wolf will have very limited options against her projectile and edgehogging. Of course it's possible to make it to the ledge but not very likely considering his recoveries. Landing on the stage can be considered a goal when edgeguarding against Wolf considering his lag. Especially for Zelda seeing as during this lag, she can now send you back off the stage.

This is wrong on so many levels. Wolf doesn't give a **** about projectiles. If he DIs upwards he doesn't even need to recover unless Zelda chases him. Something - like so many things about her - she's terrible at.

Funny note...In the Inui/Atomsk matchup, Atomsk loses the set due to edgeguarding.

And when id I say, that it never works? I said that it does work. It just doesn't work as good as most people think.

Edgeguarding isn't as effective or as useful as it once was, and noobs let it destroy them more than they should because of improper DI, but it still affects matchups quite a bit, and is an integral part of high level play.

And in what way does it impact the match-up? And when is it an "integral part" of high level play

 

[Yuna]

Zelda is terrible at gimping people, and who the hell said she was good at it?

Nobody. Gheb_01 just thinks I did.

It. won't. happen. against. good. players. period.

I said it before but it's apparently too hard to read...for YOU

Good players will never get sweetspot Faired by Zelda at 80%? In what alternate universe? Go re-read what I actually wrote.

There's no point in me replying to you 'til you do.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nobody. Gheb_01 just thinks I did.

Erm...no. I know that you didn't say it. I just said it has 0 relevance. Don't come up with stuff that has nothing to do with the subject.

Good players will never get sweetspot Faired by Zelda at 80%? In what alternate universe?

It's called "the reality".

Go re-read what I actually wrote.

No u. I won't read the garbage you said a 6th time just because you fail to see what I'm saying.

There's no point in me replying to you 'til you do.

There's no point in replying if you fail at Brawl. You still do it though.

 

[Yuna]

Almost everything you say can be disputed. People are just tired of doing so.

Quote what I said, dispute it sentence by sentence.

Drawin wrong conclusions once again? I read what you say. If you say it the way I interpreted it, it's wrong. If you meant something else it has no relevance to the topic.

I never said the things you seem to think I said and are arguing against. I never said Zelda is the paragon of edgeguarding. I was merely dispelling your notion that Zelda sucks at it at all times and that edgeguarding is so easy to get around in Brawl.

Maybe you should actually play the game seriously?

At least I'm able to understand plainEnglish.

This has 0 to do with Edgeguarding and just as much with gravity. It's - like most of the things you write - useless information.

It was relevant for the moment.

And? This has nothing to do with Edgeguarding. You bury the stuff you want to say - which is crap in almost every case - with pseudo relevant stuff and examples nobody cares about.

What I say is what I say, not what you think I say. I never said what you think I said. I said specific things.

And why would anybody let that happen? Who is so stupid to get Edgeguarded by Zelda's fsmash?

I question the intelligence of anyone who'd read "Zelda's Fair" as "Zelda's Fsmash"?

It won't happen. Stuoid players get fsmashed by Zelda, while trying to recover.

Only stupid players would Fsmash as Zelda for an edgeguard.

The prime goal of Edgeguarding used to be gimping.

Or just edgeguarding. We didn't stop edgeguarding once they were past gimping percentages.

And whoopity doo, the game has changed. Yay. Who would have ever thought that. Doesn't mean it's overrated now. Not the way the top players or even intermediate players are playing the game (nobody cares about the people below that).

Yes, edgeguarding in many instances are now just about inflicting extra damage. But the alternative would be not to inflict that extra damage at all. Nobody intelligent would argue that edgeguarding is still all about gimping or that you can easily kill good players at 20% with good edguarding.

But it is not overrated. We're not going "It's so great, you win if you edgeguard". But the other option would be to not edgeguard at no additional gain.

So you edgeguard for that gain. If you edgeguard well, you won't get punished for a failed edgeguard. If you succeed, they either die or take additional damage and you will have won out from the attempt. No one (credible) is overrating it.

It's called "the reality".

In your head, maybe. Zelda can never sweetspot Fair people once they hit 80%? Wow, what perfect players you must know!

 

[LinkStrifeLeonhart]

Wouldn't the character with the greater amount of safer options (and perhaps just options in general) while edge guarding/being edge guarding generally have the advantage in that situation?

I wouldn't call it overrated since it's pretty 'natural' in Brawl. I would akin this to saying that star kos or top screen kos are overrated.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Quote what I said, dispute it sentence by sentence.

Actually I'm doing it the whole time

I never said the things you seem to think I said and are arguing against. I never said Zelda is the paragon of edgeguarding.

I.know.it.I.know.what.you.said.and.it.is.irrelevant!!!

I was merely dispelling your notion that Zelda sucks at it at all times and that edgeguarding is so easy to get around in Brawl.

Zelda sucks. Especially at edgeguarding.
Edgeguarding is quite easy to get around against most characters. Zelda in particular.

At least I'm able to understand plainEnglish.

It doesn't look like that at all.

Maybe you should stop being an attentionwhore and read other people's statements rather than start an argument that has not only 0 relevance but will go on forever.

It was relevant for the moment.

For the moment you are responsible for by bringing up irrelevant information.

What I say is what I say, not what you think I say. I never said what you think I said. I said specific things.

They have no relevance.

I question the intelligence of anyone who'd read "Zelda's Fair" as "Zelda's Fsmash"?

I question the intelligence of anyone who is unable to see that a human is capable of making a mistake.

Yes I meant to say fsmash, forgive me.

Now feel sorry for the > 9000 times you were wrong.

Only stupid players would Fsmash as Zelda for an edgeguard.

For once I agree. It was a misunderstanding, which I am responsible for.

Or just edgeguarding. We didn't stop edgeguarding once they were past gimping percentages.

"Didn't"? Are you talking about Melee?

And whoopity doo, the game has changed. Yay. Who would have ever thought that. Doesn't mean it's overrated now.

Not necessarily. In this specific case it does though.

Not the way the top players or even intermediate players are playing the game (nobody cares about the people below that).

And why do you know that? According to yourself you don't play Brawl seriously. How do you wanna know what the scene on that level is like?

Yes, edgeguarding in many instances are now just about inflicting extra damage. But the alternative would be not to inflict that extra damage at all.

Funny. In some cases you don't even deal damage by edgeguarding. I admit it's not in every case but in more than you make it seem.

Nobody intelligent would argue that edgeguarding is still all about gimping or that you can easily kill good players at 20% with good edguarding.

Yea

But it is not overrated.

Go to match-up boards and tell all the people who use edgeguarding as an argument.

They might be scrubs. But so is the majority. So in fact - if you look at the number of people who take it as an important factor - it is overrated.

In your head, maybe. Zelda can never sweetspot Fair people once they hit 80%?

Rarely.

Wow, what perfect players you must know!

I don't know one perfect player. None of them gets hit by a fair btw. you know why? Because it sucks. Its predictable and every idiot knows when it comes and when it doesn't.

 

[Anther]

What?
It's one of the most advantageous positions you get over the majority of characters in the game. If you're gonna change the definition of edge guarding to mean gimping then sure, it's overrated as a method of killing. Of course it's overrated if you're comparing it to melee, which is effectively why you're saying it's overrated. You're not going to accumulate kills as efficiently in this game and I don't know if it's necessary to get into a melee is more effective than brawl argument x_X.
I guess if you're upset people are using it to argue matches, but some chars do incur a lot more damage in certain matchups if taken off the stage.

 

[Cirno]

The prime goal of Edgeguarding used to be gimping.

Many players still think like that. That's why I'm writing this in the first place.

Used to be when?

Not being condescending or anything but I'd like to look at some matches from that time since I don't recall it myself.

I know even now gimps are attempted while edge guarding, but making that the main focus takes away from the very concept of it being edge guarding and just seems silly.

On the contrary. MKs ability to Edgeguard/Gimp somebody is not overrated. But it rarely happens because the tactic is overrated.

Some of our users like to over exaggerate in the sense that if MK knocks you off stage you are as good as one stock down because he can gimp.

Getting knocked off stage is not a guaranteed gimp like many would express.

This is why I believe his gimping ability is overrated.Not bad, incredible at worst but not god like.

No

If Zelda spams fireballs at a recovering Wolf while on the edge, all she has to do to prevent an edge guard is watch for his trajectory and edgehog/fireball spam accordingly.

Sounds easy to me.

This is wrong on so many levels. Wolf doesn't give a **** about projectiles. If he DIs upwards he doesn't even need to recover unless Zelda chases him. Something - like so many things about her - she's terrible at.

Wolf's reflector doesn't stall him in the air like Fox's, meaning if he uses this option while trying to recover against her fireball spam, his ability to safely make it back to the stage is diminished.

If he airdodges, similar position due to being a fast faller.

Average air movement and range on Zelda's projectile means he's not maneuvering quick enough to completely avoid an attempt.

His Illusion can be easily be predicted and stopped by every character.

His firewolf can be edge guarded from all angles except directly horizontal(unless the opponent is at high percents using a get up attack) and even then we come back to Wolf's trajectory which can be predicted, thus his other method of recovery is easily stopped.

And as for chasing upwards. Zelda's fireball falls second only to pit's arrows, but with more knockback it's a trade off I'm sure Zelda mains don't mind.


Unless he is DIing up and out of the attack, he'll need to recover if he is knocked offstage.
Every character can easily edge guard Wolf. Projectile users are even better. Which Zelda is.

 

[Yuna]

Actually I'm doing it the whole time

No you're not. You're writing general refutes to things I didn't actually say + throwing it "You're saying irrelevant stuff" every once in a while instead of addressing what I say directly.

Zelda sucks. Especially at edgeguarding.
Edgeguarding is quite easy to get around against most characters. Zelda in particular.

If the opponent always edgeguards in the same way and in a predictable manner. No good players is going to let you, say, airdodge against their edgeguards most of the time.

Edgeguarding requires more work and prediction now, yes. Doesn't make it overrated.

Maybe you should stop being an attentionwhore and read other people's statements rather than start an argument that has not only 0 relevance but will go on forever.

Aren't you actually debating yourself now as this would be a perfect line to throw at yourself?

I question the intelligence of anyone who is unable to see that a human is capable of making a mistake.

You question my intelligence for mistakes I'm not actually making when in the mean time, you make mistakes yourself. It's called hypocrisy and irony. I was merely pointing it out.

"Didn't"? Are you talking about Melee?

Of course we are. The argument was that edgeguarding isn't all about gimping. I backed it up with "Just because you're past gimping % doesn't mean people still didn't (or do, anyway) edgeguard". The main point of edgeguarding is to do just that, edgeguard, be it for gimping, adding % or outright KO:ing.

Not necessarily. In this specific case it does though.

How is it overrated, really? Tell me how "teh pros" are overrating it.

And why do you know that? According to yourself you don't play Brawl seriously. How do you wanna know what the scene on that level is like?

And I automatically stopped paying attention to how Brawl's metagame is progressing, stopped paying attention to tournament results and videos because of this?

Funny. In some cases you don't even deal damage by edgeguarding. I admit it's not in every case but in more than you make it seem.

How could you possibly not deal damage on a successful edgeguard? Unless by "edgeguarding", you include "hitting with Link's Gale" or "Blowing people high into the air with G&W's Uair" or something.

Go to match-up boards and tell all the people who use edgeguarding as an argument.

Nobody cares what the less informed think. If by "edgeguarding is overrated" you mean "by some people" where "some" is the less informed people running wild in the character specific forums alone (your OP does not specify this clearly enough), then I'm in 100% agreement with you since there's a lot of things they're doing "wrong".

If you mean "in general", as in generally, by all players at all levels, then we still disagree.

They might be scrubs. But so is the majority. So in fact - if you look at the number of people who take it as an important factor - it is overrated.

Yes. I would never argue against this. Idiots exist everywhere. And many of them roam SWF, especially the character specific sections.

If this was how you meant to argue this, then I cannot disagree with you for it is the truth. But the OP did not sufficiently reflect this side of your argument.

I don't know one perfect player. None of them gets hit by a fair btw. you know why? Because it sucks. Its predictable and every idiot knows when it comes and when it doesn't.

Knowing it might come =/= Being able to not get hit by it, ever. Fair is quite fast. Fair has range. Fair has priority.

Zelda's jumping at you. Knowing that the Fair might be coming does not mean you'll be able to not get it by it, ever. Also, my original argument was that once the Fair hits, you die. The initial part of original post in this thread was to dispel the "DI"-argument.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What?
It's one of the most advantageous positions you get over the majority of characters in the game. If you're gonna change the definition of edge guarding to mean gimping then sure, it's overrated as a method of killing. Of course it's overrated if you're comparing it to melee, which is effectively why you're saying it's overrated. You're not going to accumulate kills as efficiently in this game and I don't know if it's necessary to get into a melee is more effective than brawl argument x_X.
I guess if you're upset people are using it to argue matches, but some chars do incur a lot more damage in certain matchups if taken off the stage.

I don't know what's so hard to understand about it.

In the OP i clearly said, that you will take damage. Nobody denies that your at a bad position once you're off the stage. Nor that the opponent can make use of it.

I just said that you never get as many KOs that way as people say. Therefroe -while by no means bad- it is overrated.

Used to be when?

In Melee

Not being condescending or anything but I'd like to look at some matches from that time since I don't recall it myself.

I can't think of any Melee match wihout gimping or a KO via edgeguarding. It's there in virtually every top level match.

I know even now gimps are attempted while edge guarding, but making that the main focus takes away from the very concept of it being edge guarding and just seems silly.

It's still not as effective as people say.

Some of our users like to over exaggerate in the sense that if MK knocks you off stage you are as good as one stock down because he can gimp.

It's way more than just "some".

Getting knocked off stage is not a guaranteed gimp like many would express.

And that's the point of this topic

This is why I believe his gimping ability is overrated.Not bad, incredible at worst but not god like.

Maybe his gimping is overrated. I still think Edgeguarding as a whole is overrated

If Zelda spams fireballs at a recovering Wolf while on the edge, all she has to do to prevent an edge guard is watch for his trajectory and edgehog/fireball spam accordingly.

Sounds easy to me.

If Wolf is in a high position he doesn't need to recover. That's what I'm saying in the OP. Watch the DI of the Bowser. From that position he doesn't have to recover.

 

[Delvro]

Firstly, I would like to point out that small numbers of video evidence of high-level players means very little, statiscically speaking, only shows that the possibility EXISTS. What we actually want is the proportion of matches (of high-level competitors) where edgeguarding plays an important role. Let's say, for example, that there are 200 recorded matches of the highest level MK vs Olimar matches, and in 100 of them, Olimar got edgeguarded at least once.

You can show 100 videos of Olimar not getting edgeguarded (which is pretty impressive evidence)... but it's what you DIDN'T show that's more important. The other 100 matches where Olimar did get edgeguarded would show that edgeguarding is important in ~50% of high level MK vs Olimar matches.

I have a finals match, Overswarm (metaknight) vs Hilt (olimar) saved on my wii. Hilt got edgeguarded. Does that mean anything? Not really. Is simply shows that the possibility exists. We can only get an idea of the importance of edgeguarding by watching LOTS and LOTS of high level matches, and recording the ratio of successful edgeguards to unsuccessful edgeguards.

SHORT VERSION: You can't prove anything either way by providing bits and pieces of biased videos.

On a side note some of us need a serious dose of respect for each other. It seems plainly obvious that you're both competitive players and spend a lot of time playing smash. Why do you feel the need to tell each other that "I'm much better than you"? To me, it's childish and embarassing. Stop it.

 

[noodles]

edge guarding overrated? you mean that tactic that can get you a huge lead at low percents? must be

 

[Yuna]

On a side note some of us need a serious dose of respect for each other. It seems plainly obvious that you're both competitive players and spend a lot of time playing smash. Why do you feel the need to tell each other that "I'm much better than you"? To me, it's childish and embarassing. Stop it.

Careful reading would actually divulge that not once have I argued that I'm "better than Gheb_01" (at Smash, as that's what I assume you were talking about).

Not once. Gheb_01, however, has argued that I suck at Smash and that he's much better than me, etc., etc.

I would never argue that I'm better than someone, thus, their opinions do not matter. I've merely argued that his data is biased, his premise wrong and that he's unable to comprehend plain English.

 

[K 2]

way tl; dr

The goal of edgeguarding isn't always to kill/gimp. Edgeguarding is free % that you can easily put on your opponent. Your opponent's main priority is to return to the stage, not to attack you. Even against characters with godlike recoveries, I'm still usually able to put 10-20% on them before they return.

I to believe gimping is overrated though. If Olimar (or whoever) plays intelligently, he will rarely be gimped.

Easy to edgeguard means your opponent doesn't have many options to defend himself with. Most characters are forced to recover, rather to defend themselves because their recoveries are rather poor and/or predictable. Falco's recovery consist of two options: Phantasm (which is when he is parallel with the stage) and firebird (when he is not parallel with the stage). It's fairly easy to predict which one he does and to punish accordingly. Also, Falco doesn't really have many options to defend himself from edgeguarders. Yes, he has a reflector, but it lasts so long that by the time it ends, Falco has lost a great deal of vertical height. Phantasm has crap priority that can be intercepted by almost any move. Easy to edgeguard doesn't always mean easy to gimp. It means there options are limited offstage.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

While I don't have the time right now to go through the responses in this thread, I must say that I feel the "evidence" you use to support your argument are simply cherry-picked examples where gimping doesn't play as large a role. Also, you may be forgetting that a major part of having an "easily edgeguarded" recovery is that it is predictable and requires little to no effort to read. That means I can jump out and hit your character with slow aerials, spikes, or KO moves that other recoveries would normally prevent. Gimping is just one of many options available to the edge guarder. If you were to claim that Wolf's recovery is just as safe as, say, Pikachu's recovery... then I'd have to question your sanity.

 

[Delvro]

I'm glad you feel that way. I was specifically referring to the point when Gheb said what you just mentioned... FYI

I'm just tired of seeing so much disdain on these boards.

EDIT: Samuraipanda basically said what I wanted to say in a much clearer manner.

 

[Yuna]

While I don't have the time right now to go through the responses in this thread, I must say that I feel the "evidence" you use to support your argument are simply cherry-picked examples where gimping doesn't play as large a role. Also, you may be forgetting that a major part of having an "easily edgeguarded" recovery is that it is predictable and requires little to no effort to read. That means I can jump out and hit your character with slow aerials, spikes, or KO moves that other recoveries would normally prevent. Gimping is just one of many options available to the edge guarder. If you were to claim that Wolf's recovery is just as safe as, say, Pikachu's recovery... then I'd have to question your sanity.

This is what I should have said (I said some of it, but it was lost in the other stuff since Gheb decided to ignore it).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No you're not. You're writing general refutes to things I didn't actually say + throwing it "You're saying irrelevant stuff" every once in a while instead of addressing what I say directly.

Because actually you're saying nothing.

You say, that a Zalda fair sweetspot KOs at 80%. I interpret it as "while Edgeguarding", which is apparently wrong. Since this topic is about Edgeguarding what was it that you meant? It has no relevance in this case.

If the opponent always edgeguards in the same way and in a predictable manner. No good players is going to let you, say, airdodge against their edgeguards most of the time.

And no good player is going to airdodge all the time.

Edgeguarding requires more work and prediction now, yes. Doesn't make it overrated.

If the opponent has enough ways to prevent Edgeguarding attempts while being offstage itself it's overrated.

Aren't you actually debating yourself now as this would be a perfect line to throw at yourself?

Aren't you actually debating yourself now as this would be a perfect line to throw at yourself?

Of course we are. The argument was that edgeguarding isn't all about gimping. I backed it up with "Just because you're past gimping % doesn't mean people still didn't (or do, anyway) edgeguard". The main point of edgeguarding is to do just that, edgeguard, be it for gimping, adding % or outright KO:ing.

Out of these opions, adding % is the only one that works. And not even reliably or to a notable extent

How is it overrated, really? Tell me how "teh pros" are overrating it.

"Teh pros" don't overate it. when did I say it? There are other people playing competitively and still are overrating it

And I automatically stopped paying attention to how Brawl's metagame is progressing, stopped paying attention to tournament results and videos because of this?

As a former Melee player you're supposed to know that it's not that easy. Plying the game beats all of that with ease.

How could you possibly not deal damage on a successful edgeguard? Unless by "edgeguarding", you include "hitting with Link's Gale" or "Blowing people high into the air with G&W's Uair" or something.

Or maybe the opponent is in a position where he has just as many options as you - the edgeguard - does?

Nobody cares what the less informed think.

Then why are you debating Brawl related stuff?

If by "edgeguarding is overrated" you mean "by some people" where "some" is the less informed people running wild in the character specific forums alone (your OP does not specify this clearly enough), then I'm in 100% agreement with you since there's a lot of things they're doing "wrong".

I admit that I have to specify that.

It's still more people than you think. And most of them are better players and know more about the game than you (give them credit for)

If you mean "in general", as in generally, by all players at all levels, then we still disagree.

No. If you talk about "all players" Edgeguarding is "cheap". That's why we disregard casual players.

Knowing it might come =/= Being able to not get hit by it, ever. Fair is quite fast. Fair has range. Fair has priority.

Not so much range. It's Shield grab fodder.

Firstly, I would like to point out that small numbers of video evidence of high-level players means very little, statiscically speaking, only shows that the possibility EXISTS. What we actually want is the proportion of matches (of high-level competitors) where edgeguarding plays an important role. Let's say, for example, that there are 200 recorded matches of the highest level MK vs Olimar matches, and in 100 of them, Olimar got edgeguarded at least once.

You can show 100 videos of Olimar not getting edgeguarded (which is pretty impressive evidence)... but it's what you DIDN'T show that's more important. The other 100 matches where Olimar did get edgeguarded would show that edgeguarding is important in ~50% of high level MK vs Olimar matches.

I have a finals match, Overswarm (metaknight) vs Hilt (olimar) saved on my wii. Hilt got edgeguarded. Does that mean anything? Not really. Is simply shows that the possibility exists. We can only get an idea of the importance of edgeguarding by watching LOTS and LOTS of high level matches, and recording the ratio of successful edgeguards to unsuccessful edgeguards.

SHORT VERSION: You can't prove anything either way by providing bits and pieces of biased videos.

Unfortunately you're right. I'd have to post many, many videos. For reasons of convenience I didn't do it. Nobody will watch all the videos and no matter how many I post, people won'T be convinced all the time.

On a side note some of us need a serious dose of respect for each other. It seems plainly obvious that you're both competitive players and spend a lot of time playing smash.

Yuna doesn't play Brawl seriously apparently.

Why do you feel the need to tell each other that "I'm much better than you"? To me, it's childish and embarassing. Stop it.

I don't know about that...I don't think Yuna would claim that he's a better player. It doesn't matter in the end.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

~Winning: An Overrated "Tactic"~

I could write a massive essay about trying to win is completely fruitless because the opponent will just avoid it and beat you back.

Edge-guarding is a key tactic in smash. If you honestly believe that edge-guarding is so overrated, I want to meet you in the finals of a big tournament someday. I would love having the comfort of recovering knowing full well you will not come out and interfere with that at all.

 

[Delvro]

I do believe that edgeguarding still plays a role even at high-level play (which I am not at, of course, but maybe someday!)

However... I have a question. Obviously, DI is crucial to avoid getting edgeguarded. Can high level players DI very consistently? (50% of the time, 80% of the time, whatever) I'm kind of sucky at DI, myself...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

way tl; dr

The goal of edgeguarding isn't always to kill/gimp. Edgeguarding is free % that you can easily put on your opponent. Your opponent's main priority is to return to the stage, not to attack you. Even against characters with godlike recoveries, I'm still usually able to put 10-20% on them before they return.

I already said that in the OP. You will probably take damage.

I to believe gimping is overrated though. If Olimar (or whoever) plays intelligently, he will rarely be gimped.

Exactly.

Easy to edgeguard means your opponent doesn't have many options to defend himself with. Most characters are forced to recover, rather to defend themselves because their recoveries are rather poor and/or predictable. Falco's recovery consist of two options: Phantasm (which is when he is parallel with the stage) and firebird (when he is not parallel with the stage). It's fairly easy to predict which one he does and to punish accordingly. Also, Falco doesn't really have many options to defend himself from edgeguarders. Yes, he has a reflector, but it lasts so long that by the time it ends, Falco has lost a great deal of vertical height. Phantasm has crap priority that can be intercepted by almost any move. Easy to edgeguard doesn't always mean easy to gimp. It means there options are limited offstage.

I'm actually proving the opposite in the OP. Watch the Bowser DI video and read my comments. Then watch the DSF vs SK92 video

While I don't have the time right now to go through the responses in this thread, I must say that I feel the "evidence" you use to support your argument are simply cherry-picked examples where gimping doesn't play as large a role.

I agree with the "cherry picked" critic. I have to. I can't show enough videos. It wouldn't matter.

However, that "it doesn't play a large role" just isn't true. Match-up's with Olimar are always rated by how easily he's gimped

Also, you may be forgetting that a major part of having an "easily edgeguarded" recovery is that it is predictable and requires little to no effort to read. That means I can jump out and hit your character with slow aerials, spikes, or KO moves that other recoveries would normally prevent. Gimping is just one of many options available to the edge guarder. If you were to claim that Wolf's recovery is just as safe as, say, Pikachu's recovery... then I'd have to question your sanity.

I thought it would be obvious, that I don't compare Wolfs and Pikachus recovery.

I updated it though to avoid more confusions

@Buzz

Once again: I'm not trying to tell anybody not to edgeguard.

I'm just saying that people give it too much credit. I even wrote it in the OP

Some people seem to have difficulties when it comes to reading simple texts