Edelgard von Hresvelg - Black Eagles House Leader

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Regarding the criticism about Azure Moon: Man it's a good thing this isn't on the FE subreddit, else the Dimitri stans over there would be all over it, what with how much the subreddit loves kissing his ***.
Man, I'm just happy to have at least one place where I feel safe sharing my personal opinion on the game and its routes without having to worry about toxic fans calling me a fascist or a communist because Edelgard is my favourite character in 3H (since I relate a lot with her)and I want her in Smash.

I won't deny Edelgard has toxic stans too, every character has it's fair share of those sadly, but I've never received as many personal insults as from Dimitri's worshipper.
 

Nimbostratus

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I think this is where the disconnect is.
Edelgard doesn't conquer for the sake of conquering. There's no nationalistic basis to her ideology. Hell, it's the exact opposite, she believes in a meritocracy.
She takes over the other territories not for the glory of Adrestia or what have you, but to unite Fódlan against the church. You said yourself that people are more accepting of wars of Independence...that's exactly what this is. Edelgard is fighting to free Fódlan from the rule of the church. It's a revolutionary war. The church has an iron grip on the entire continent and she's rising against it. Taking control of the Alliance and Kingdom was done purely to corner the Knights of Seiros and dispose of Rhea.

Edelgard doesn't believe in needless bloodshed, only bloodshed that is necessary to see her goals through to the end. It's very telling, for example, that Crimson Flower doesn't have a single rout map. All of them are either Defeat the Commander(s) or, in the case of the final chapter, Defeat the Boss (Rhea). Literally only six named characters have to die by Edelgard's hand, those being Judith, Rodrigue, Gwendal, Dedue, Dimitri, and Rhea. Literally everyone else can be recruited, avoided, or spared, making it the route with the lowest mandatory death count.

And she only strikes in strategic locations. She makes it a point to let civilians escape ahead of time when she takes over Garreg Mach. Then we have her timeskip battles. The Second Battle of Garreg Mach was a defense mission. The Great Bridge of Myrddin and Arianrhod were military strongholds meaning no civilians were at risk of harm. The Tailtean Plains were naturally free of civilians too.

There are only two battles in Crimson Flower wherein Edelgard's war could potentially harm civilians. Those are Derdriu and Fhirdiad, the two capital cities. For the former, they're told Claude placed the city on lockdown, which would likely secure the citizens' safety, and much of the battle is fought by sea, with Almyran ships coming from the East and Claude being stationed at the harbor, not the city. For the latter, Edelgard literally gave Rhea the option of allowing Fhirdiad's civilians to evacuate, only for Rhea to literally make Catherine set them on fire and kill them.

So she doesn't care about nationalism (and is in fact outright against it), she makes sure civilians aren't put into unnecessary harm, and she's fighting for Fódlan's independence from the Church of Seiros. I don't think it's at all fair to generalize her entire campaign as imperialist conquest.
Thanks for your response!
Yes, Edelgard does her best to avoid unnecessary bloodshed. I'd honestly be more concerned by the number of people who like her if she acted otherwise.
Are meritocracies and nationalism truly exact opposites? You could easily have an internally meritocratic nation that is still convinced of it's own superiority and goes about throwing other countries under their feet, much like how I think the Western powers with fairer societies than some parts of the world, but I still generally don't support going over and trampling over said places to "rescue" them.
As for the motivations, it's true that Edelgard doesn't lean much on nationalistic tendencies. That being said, she still sets up that tone early on when she says the Empire has fallen from its "former glory" and that the Kingdom and Alliance are "merely offshots that pale in comparison", which might have been an insulting but mostly harmless comment if we didn't know what followed. It doesn't help that her ending illustration has her decked out in Adrestian honors with banners being thrown at her feet. Maybe it's unfair for me to hone in on two details like that, but her first comment was enough to set up an early impression that the game didn't really do enough to persuade me against.
As for the necessity of conquering the Kingdom and Alliance, she definitely comes off best in Crimson Flower. I'm not as sure about fighting the Alliance head-on since their more engulfed in internal disorder than actively fighting for the church, but Faerghus is harboring Rhea, so if El's goal is her capture, conflict there was inevitable.
More problematic is that in 3 out of 4 routes, Edelgard already has Rhea in custody and Garreg Mach is abandoned, but the game is still clear that she declares war on the Alliance and Kingdom, not the other way around, heading to a future of Fodlan united under "imperial strength". One thing I've wondered is what would happen if Edelgard simply declared Rhea to be a crazy dragon lady, execute her after the first battle of Garreg Mach, and either try helping to see a peaceful transition to a new archbishop or just head home? The surviving Knights of Seiros wouldn't accept this, and maybe the Kingdom and Alliance declare war on the Empire, but it would provide her with a lot more moral support. I have to assume that TWSITD are forcing her to keep Rhea's fate a secret so they can continue their blood research unimpeded (this is never made clear, but Edelgard would be a fool if it isn't true), but it still seems like she was unnecessarily aggressive towards the Kingdom and Alliance by declaring war before anyone can process the outcome of the first battle.
Now you could say that simply removing Rhea from the equation and scattering the knights isn't enough, and that the church still must be purged of lingering authority even without a dubious dragon sitting at the top and their central monastery destroyed. And indeed the church probably did have too much power, but personally I don't see in-game where the system is so broken that El must "save" the Kingdom and Alliance from themselves against their will, and unlike the Crimson Flower war, the other wars are more obviously taking a massive toll on the populace. Like I said before, I believe quite a few changes were likely in motion regardless of Edelgard's actions. Those represented at the officer's academy are all good kids annoyed with the status quo. I doubt I'll be persuaded to come to love Edelgard, as I still don't there are other things she does that bother me too much (her deriding Dimitri as "appalling" and "King of Delusion" in his last moments instead of promising justice for Duscur or something comes to mind), so it's probably not worth the effort to convince me.
Again, my goal was more to dispel any unfounded claims or misconceptions about the church's or Dimitri's motivations/actions to provided a more nuanced view to a delightfully nuanced game. I do think there are enough reasons for anyone here to like Edelgard, and that's fine.
 
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Shishœ

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Bringing this here because this is just Edelgard Debate Central rn
Edelgard doesn't believe in conquering pther nations, she believes in reunifying Fodlan.
All she's doing is reunifying what once was unified. She has no intention of ever meddling in external affairs, in fact, she's more than willing to negotiate with other countries to coexist peacefully.
SPOILER_Edelbad.jpg

This is after her Paralogue, which deals with the Almyrans.

i think it's easy to see Edelgard as conquering when she's invading "foreign countries" but really... Fodlan is one culture separated by three borders(exemplified by how the only cultural clashes we ever see are with the characters from outside Fodlan, not between Empire/Alliance/Kingdom students).
 
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Bringing this here because this is just Edelgard Debate Central rn
Edelgard doesn't believe in conquering pther nations, she believes in reunifying Fodlan.
All she's doing is reunifying what once was unified. She has no intention of ever meddling in external affairs, in fact, she's more than willing to negotiate with other countries to coexist peacefully.
View attachment 238519
This is after her Paralogue, which deals with the Almyrans.

i think it's easy to see Edelgard as conquering when she's invading "foreign countries" but really... Fodlan is one culture separated by three borders(exemplified by how the only cultural clashes we ever see are with the characters from outside Fodlan, not between Empire/Alliance/Kingdom students).
This.
Edelgard's war has many parallels with Italy's Reunification during the XIX century. Both started from a single nation "conquering" the others, but they were always unified by culture, language, religion and so on, only separated by political borders by other European Countries. Sure, some may say it was just the Kingdom of Sardinia expanding itself, but it was a necessary step into making a nation unite again under a single state, free of governate itself.
 
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There were people who think Edelgard is evil for her actions in Arrianhrod. What do you guys think?

https://forums.serenesforest.net/?a...ic&content_id=88666&content_commentid=5508310

Basically she lies about the church destroying Arrianhrod even though it was done by TWSITD.
Edelgard does end up being very lucky that her achnemesis proceeded to act in a way that supports her claims... again.

But really, revealing herself as the Flame Emperor likely already meant her friends were aware of her alliance with the Slithers. It was just that at that specific moment Edelgard and her army absolutely could not afford to lose momentum due to panic and/or infighting. She knows she's on the the cusp of ending her war with Rhea and starting the one on the Slithers, where she can come clean with her allies in relatively short order, smoothed over by the fact that they'll now get to make them answer for it.
 
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There were people who think Edelgard is evil for her actions in Arrianhrod. What do you guys think?

https://forums.serenesforest.net/?a...ic&content_id=88666&content_commentid=5508310

Basically she lies about the church destroying Arrianhrod even though it was done by TWSITD.
What really was the alternative? Revealing publicly the existence of TWSITD, which was something she and Hubert want to avoid in order to keep their alliance so that they can backstab and destroy them later, would have made things a lot worse.
It would have the army lose morale because they basically caused the destruction of the city by killing Cornelia, as well as to doubt of each other since TWSITD can take different forms, and that was right before the final battle with Dimitri, who was stated to be the biggest threat to Edelgard's plan besides Rhea herself due to his strength.
Heck, if TWSITD were publicly revealed then they could have easily disposed of Edelgard and took the war and the continent on their hand, which would have been way worse than the Church's ruling.

It was once again something bad that she was forced to do in order to avoid something far worse.

And also Rhea lied to her subordinates and human kind as a whole putting herself on a pedestal, and Dimitri kept insisting that Edelgard was responsible for the Tragedy of Duscur (which is what also led Dedue to hate her, as seen during Ch12) as well a that her only objective was to became the next goddess...so yeah, it's not just Edelgard who says something far from the truth.
 

Nihilem

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... it's not like she's accusing innocent people unjustly.
Well but thats what it is. Even if you could find some dirt on the church, in this regard they were innocent. Its like accusing a thief of the murder your neighbor has commited and then saying oh its ok he was a thief so not innocent...

It may be a pragmatic and cunning move but also a villainious one. Definetly nothing a hero would fo.
 

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Edelgard is already quite damn clear she isn't some sort of hero. She just plays her cards as she sees fit. It's likely that TWSITD influenced her intentions as well, even if she got her trauma from them. Ardestia wasn't exactly friendly with the Church of Seiros either. The Kingdom of Faergus is also at it's weakest since it's foundation and without leader more or less. Leicester also isn't all that more unified before the time skip either. So Edelgard is in the most favourable position for her conquest, and you'll see how much of the situation is set in stone by TWSITD. So I don't think it's out of the question at all that her motives have been inspired by TWSITD, even if she's not conscious of it.

In a way, she's an ideal skape goat for TWSITD, much like Dimitri in some cases is the ideal skape goat for the Church. They both don't realize they're being played from higher up at all. Claude is much sharper than both of them in this, hence his more care free attitude. He knows he's more likely to be safe in the end, especially considering his family ties.
 
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Well but thats what it is. Even if you could find some dirt on the church, in this regard they were innocent. Its like accusing a thief of the murder your neighbor has commited and then saying oh its ok he was a thief so not innocent...

It may be a pragmatic and cunning move but also a villainious one. Definetly nothing a hero would fo.
Then with that logic there is no hero in 3H. Both Rhea and Dimitri lie (and on way more serious matter), as I pointed out in my previous post, and I'm not far enough in GD but I wouldn't be surprised to see Claude lie to considering his nature as a schemer.
At least Edelgard had a really good reason for lying at that point, since revealing the truth was too dangerous considering the consequences. Being honest would have been a stupid move that would have being a problem for everything they have fought for up to that point, and she had no choice but to lie since she couldn't even just stay silent.

Another example that comes to mind is in Xenoblade X, were the President lies to the population at the beginning saying that the BLADEs have saved 10 people, while it was only one. Why did he says that? Because it boosted morale in a colony of scared people on the verge of panicking considering the desperate situation they are.

Sometimes in real life and in "mature" storytelling "good" people lie for good reasons, so using the strict White vs Black, Good vs Evil, Hero vs Villain mentality isn't really going to help understand the depth of the characters in 3H, all of them, including Edelgard, Dimitri, Claude, Rhea and so on.
 
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Was King Dedede evil for breaking the Star Rod to stop Nightmare despite the loss of dreams as consequence? Was it evil of Sheik to lie about being Zelda when Ganondorf captures her almost immediately once the truth comes out? And the almost innumerable times law was broken in the name of good, like Tails breaking Sonic out of jail.
 
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Was King Dedede evil for breaking the Star Rod to stop Nightmare despite the loss of dreams as consequence? Was it evil of Sheik to lie about being Zelda when Ganondorf captures her almost immediately once the truth comes out? And the almost innumerable times law was broken in the name of good, like Tails breaking Sonic out of jail.
In regards to that first one, taking a bath in the Fountain of Dreams didn't exactly help. Some people have trouble figuring how to do good things right sometimes.
 

Nihilem

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Then with that logic there is no hero in 3H. Both Rhea and Dimitri lie (and on way more serious matter), as I pointed out in my previous post, and I'm not far enough in GD but I wouldn't be surprised to see Claude lie to considering his nature as a schemer.
At least Edelgard had a really good reason for lying at that point, since revealing the truth was too dangerous considering the consequences.
And with your logic there are no villains. Because everything Rhea has done she also had good reasons too. Even TWSITD had their reasons.
We can even go so far ad to using that logic to excuse any crime any dictator has ever commited. Because it just was to ensure his dominance so that then a golden age can start.

And acussing someone of basically nuking a city full with civillians is no small delict. I would argue that it is worse then anything Rhea actually did up to that point. Or whatever lie Dimitri has told.
Surely one sin does not make a person a villain but at least for ne the line there is crossed.

In our own history we have enough examples where countries used that tactic to justify a war or an invasion to take the excuse „but we had the best attentions“ to lightly.

Also I dont see the characters all black and white and I like most of them. But at one point you have to say this person is a villain or all the crimes they commit are completly meaningless

(I also dont consider Rhea a hero btw. )
 
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Shishœ

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I told ya'll this is just Edelgard Debate Central now
Well but thats what it is. Even if you could find some dirt on the church, in this regard they were innocent. Its like accusing a thief of the murder your neighbor has commited and then saying oh its ok he was a thief so not innocent...

It may be a pragmatic and cunning move but also a villainious one. Definetly nothing a hero would fo.
No, it's like pinning a murder on a mass murderer that you were already going after.
And with your logic there are no villains. Because everything Rhea has done she also had good reasons too. Even TWSITD had their reasons.
G R E Y M O R A L I T Y
And acussing someone of basically nuking a city full with civillians is no small delict. I would argue that it is worse then anything Rhea actually did up to that point
I won't pretend as if falsely accusing someone is a honorable move(because it isn't) but Rhea did exactly that and much more for a thousand years.

Waging war all while being honorable is a sure way to lose it and increase casualties, something a lot of FE characters don't seem to realize. Edelgard's willingness to get her hands dirty for the greater good is what I consider one of her main appeals, because goody-two-shoes are boring and annoying to me and birth the infamous Lawful Stupid trope.
 

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Hokay, let's take this away from The Discourse™ for a moment, and discuss another question for a moment: What do you think would Kirby's Edelgard-hat look like?
I think they'll keep it simple and just use the hair of her default version, whether that'd be Academy Phase or War Phase.
 
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Hokay, let's take this away from The Discourse™ for a moment, and discuss another question for a moment: What do you think would Kirby's Edelgard-hat look like?
It's most likely going to be Edelgard's hair pre timeskip, but I would love to see Kirby with her post timeskip horned crown.

I think they'll keep it simple and just use the hair of her default version, whether that'd be Academy Phase or War Phase.
Well Hero Kirby uses Arusu/Three/Erdrik's crown and hair, so it might not necessarely be the default look.
 
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Nihilem

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I told ya'll this is just Edelgard Debate Central now
No, it's like pinning a murder on a mass murderer that you were already going after.



G R E Y M O R A L I T Y

I won't pretend as if falsely accusing someone is a honorable move(because it isn't) but Rhea did exactly that and much more for a thousand years.

Waging war all while being honorable is a sure way to lose it and increase casualties, something a lot of FE characters don't seem to realize. Edelgard's willingness to get her hands dirty for the greater good is what I consider one of her main appeals, because goody-two-shoes are boring and annoying to me and birth the infamous Lawful Stupid trope.

Ok lets agree that we disagree. You have a much darker view on Rhea than I have and i may have a darker view on Edelgard than you have. Discussing the details of that in detail would go beyond the scope of this thread. The post that started this mess had a link to another thread and I am happy to discuss this topic there to the appropiate length.

To the topic of Kirbies hat I think they will follow the route the did with all other fire emblem characters and just to the hair.
 
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Another Edelgard question, do you guys like her pre time skip design better or post time skip?
I love both, but her pre timeskip one takes the edge mostly because her Emperor outfit is a little too red, and I don't really like costumes with just a single colour (I usually dislike those kind of alts in Smash too). But I really like her horned crown and especially the skirt of her War Phase dress.
 
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Pre-skip: better hair which considering the amount of time you'll be looking at portraits...

Post-skip: intricately designed clothes that capture the little nuances of Edelgard's personality really well. Also will never get tired of watching Byleth dwarf her in height.
 
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My views on the hairstyle?

We know what it looks like when it's down. For me, that's satisfying enough. Besides, the buns remind me of Princess Leia in Star Wars.

Hokay, let's take this away from The Discourse™ for a moment, and discuss another question for a moment: What do you think would Kirby's Edelgard-hat look like?
Horns. That is all.
 

Shishœ

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Another Edelgard question, do you guys like her pre time skip design better or post time skip?
I like the color scheme of Academy Phase because the black works perfectly with her white hair and red in her clothes.
I love me some red but her Armor Lord design really needed some sort of break and while I personally would love a black/red color scheme, I think the blue in some parts of her outfit would have worked as well.
Though not taking the color into consideration, I like Armor Lord more, especially in cutscenes where the red is less saturated.
 

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It's most likely going to be Edelgard's hair pre timeskip, but I would love to see Kirby with her post timeskip horned crown.


Well Hero Kirby uses Arusu/Three/Erdrik's crown and hair, so it might not necessarely be the default look.
To be fair it seems that Erdrick was meant to be the default but SE wanted to promote XIS
 
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To be fair it seems that Erdrick was meant to be the default but SE wanted to promote XIS
What? It's the first time I've heard of this, what makes people think that? Especially since Sakurai's comment about adding VA after it was announced for XIS seems indicate that Eleven was the one they were looking into the most.
 

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What? It's the first time I've heard of this, what makes people think that? Especially since Sakurai's comment about adding VA after it was announced for XIS seems indicate that Eleven was the one they were looking into the most.
It's merely speculation, should have cleared that up. Though there's a reason everyone thought Brave was Erdrick and not 11
 

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To be fair it seems that Erdrick was meant to be the default but SE wanted to promote XIS
Well, that makes sense to me; Erdrick/Roto/Arusu/Three it's the most iconic of the Heroes, specially in Japan. So it would be the one that deserves the most to appear in Smash of the bunch.
 
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Post time skip has the better smile.

A happy El is a good El.
To me it's just that it's easier to notice compared to post-skip's neutral expression. On the models they're pretty much the same.

I'll always have a soft spot for the one she sneaks in at the end of her B-Support with Caspar.
 

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It seems like it's always a contest between Byleth or Edelgard on who would be the most logical choice. Byleth is the protagonist and would be a safe option (especially if Edelgard has a hatedom) while Edelgard is the main face of Three Houses due to her playing a major role in the overall story.

Thing is I really don't want Byleth regardless of what unique things they can do (as I dislike them more on the basis of them being another avatar character that's blue-haired and uses a sword), so I'm wondering if there is anything that could be pointed that is against their favor.
 

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Edelgard has the advantage of using axes and that, in the smash comunity at least, would be more acceptable than the blue haired sword bylethm despite the unique moves he could have.

Really, the only people who have a problem with Edelgard in smash are the universal haters of anything related to fire emblem, and the people who played three houses and disliked her character. Most of the smash fandom does not seem to have any problem with Edelgard over Byleth as a Fire emblem rep.

Also Sakurai definitively should known about the bad reception that sword Fire emblem users have in samsh, so he could go with Edelgard to have more diversity in the cast, despite not having as many tools for a moveset like byleth. Or go the pokemon trainer route and add every last one of them. And the smash fandom will burn in rage...
 
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It seems like it's always a contest between Byleth or Edelgard on who would be the most logical choice. Byleth is the protagonist and would be a safe option (especially if Edelgard has a hatedom) while Edelgard is the main face of Three Houses due to her playing a major role in the overall story.

Thing is I really don't want Byleth regardless of what unique things they can do (as I dislike them more on the basis of them being another avatar character that's blue-haired and uses a sword), so I'm wondering if there is anything that could be pointed that is against their favor.
We should not really care about her hatedom. Remember that they have put Ridley and freaking Sans when those two were probably more hated than Edelgard.

The only thing that comes to mind besides "doing something different because it's boring doing always the same" comes from this article by Source Gaming about Sakurai's rule for character selection back for Smash For:
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/09/26/sakurai-on-character-choices/

  1. The character must display personality in their game​
  2. It’s important to have something only that character can do.​
  3. Potential development issues, and game balance is also taken into some consideration​
  4. Distribution among the franchises is also taken into consideration.​

Byleth doesn't really have a personality for reasons (and that is an argument used against Cross for the Xenonlade X rep), plus personally I feel that their Time Rewind feature would be used as a counter because the idea that some fans use of "teleporting back where you were 5 seconds ago" sounds extremely broken. If you are launched you could recover from basically anywhere, and that alone would be unfair to say the least.

Plus another thing is that so far Lucina is the only female character from FE in the roster, besides Robin and Corrin who have female alts (although the Male one is used for the CSS and the "Everyone is here" banner), so that might also go in favour of Edelgard



BTW someone discovered something interesting in the Japanese artbook about Jeralt's ring:
Its description can be translated as “The stone is light purple; when put into the light it reflects a yellow/orangeish color evoking an image similar to the color of dawn.”


You know...the Edge of Dawn...this might as well be another point for Edelgard as the main focus/most notable character of 3H.

Here is a link to the tweet about it, with the translation in the comments: https://twitter.com/kodokuhoshi_/status/1174433579952201730?s=09
 
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Byleth doesn't really have a personality for reasons (and that is an argument used against Cross for the Xenonlade X rep), plus personally I feel that their Time Rewind feature would be used as a counter because the idea that some fans use of "teleporting back where you were 5 seconds ago" sounds extremely broken. If you are launched you could recover from basically anywhere, and that alone would be unfair to say the least.
Can I throw my hat in the ring?

1. About Byleth having no personality; yes and no. They start off that way for a reason in the story, but eventually grow into someone who cares deeply for whoever they side with later in the story.

2. Divine pulse doesn’t even have to be 5 second, it could be 3 or 2 seconds. Or it could just freeze them entirely, kinda like Witch Time but also not Witch Time.
 

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The issue/concern I have is that since it's Nintendo who is in charge of the DLC, while Sakurai chooses from that list: They could very well have Byleth as an option (because safe choice and is the character 3H fans would identify with more) while Edelgard isn't factored at all. Granted if that IS the case, Sakurai could always refuse another sword-wielding FE character especially since apparently I read somewhere that even he is aware of the FE side issue and only added Corrin after heavy persuasion.

Considering Lucina's the only FE female, I'll only tolerate Byleth's inclusion if they make the female one the prominent one (like they should have done with Corrin seeing as nobody gives two ****s about male Corrin). But it's unlikely considering male avatars have more generic appeal amongst the mainstream crowd.
 
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