"Echo Characters"

[GalacticPetey]

Because he has a distinct neutral b, down b, forward smash, and down air from Mario. Plus different damage outputs for moves and movement speed. Reducing a previously playable character to an alt costume is a slap in the face to all the people who loved playing as him for his differences way back in Melee.

 

[Xigger]

...Dr. Mario is so frustrating, as that's exactly what he is, and not only is he not just an alt costume, but he's not even an Echo...

Dr. Mario is a clone simply because his moveset was developed with the rest of the Melee clones, and as we all know, EVERYBODY IS HERE. Can't downgrade him just for the sake of simplicity.

(Also, the Tornado Down-B and unique-sfx-and-bounce-physics-pills both keeps him out of Echo territory)

So I say a definite NO to characters like:
Dixie Kong (too different from Diddy; no tail, would not make use of her hair)
Chrom (I side with the people arguing that his attacks wouldn't make sense to be based off of Ike when he's using the same weapon as Lucina, and she's already an echo so that's just redundant. Sorry Chrom)
Twili Midna (I honestly just don't see her using any of Zelda's moves, plus she's a bit taller than Zelda. So no.)

I do think we won't get too many echos...

I personally think we could get many echoes simply because Sakurai went out of his way to coin the term and give it so much time during the trailers.

But asides from opinions, two small oversights:

Chrom: While Chrom could feasibly be an alt or Echo for Marth or Ike (or even Lucina), Pit's guidance did label Chrom an Ike clone.
Twili Midna: Size isn't really an issue considering that characters are normally resized in this game, (RIDLEY) or that Lucina is shorter than Marth and does cause differences with hitbox sizes and sword reach. But is still an echo.

 

[Smasherfan88]

I've thought up of two echo fighter possibilities I haven't really seen anyone talk about. (Though this could be cause not many people played the game the first character is from, though I am genuinely surprised no one thought out of the second).

1. Zanza (god form or final boss form) from Xenoblade Chronicles as an echo of Shulk as they both use the same Monado.
2. Malos from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 as an echo of Shulk, as like Shulk, he uses a Monado and some of the same arts as the Monado Boy.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I've thought up of two echo fighter possibilities I haven't really seen anyone talk about. (Though this could be encaustic not many people played the game the first character is from, though I am genuinely surprised no one thought out of the second).

1. Zanza (god form or final boss form) from Xenoblade Chronicles as an echo of Shulk as they both use the same Monado.
2. Malos from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 as an echo of Shulk, as like Shulk, he uses a Monado and some of the same arts as the Monado Boy.

Alvis too, he's also able to wield the monado, I really wouldn't be mad if he got in tbh Alvis is dope

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I'll contest this one as I don't think the two are quite the same. YY has different proportions, has unique animations (which if you played Yoshi's Wooly World, you would know) and would seem a lot lighter than Yoshi.

I think he was pretty much a one to one for meat yoshi (urgh, don't ever say that again, Guybrush) except for the fact his arms are all short and stubby but that can be compensated. (Thinking arms cute and stubby mostly and lengthen when needed for item attacks)

The main difference I see is in the Yarn attacks. I'm thinking now that Yoshi's eggs bounce they could change the model from an egg to a yarn ball and increase the bounciness of them, at the cost of toss speed or damage.

Side note: Now that Diddy doesn't use his tail for his rapid attack, a Dixie Echo can happen but it really shouldn't. Besides, I think they have an old Dixie Kong Moveset lying around somewhere to re-use. (which may also help Toon Zelda's chances come to think of it.)

 

[DarthEnderX]

Dr. Mario is a clone simply because his moveset was developed with the rest of the Melee clones, and as we all know, EVERYBODY IS HERE. Can't downgrade him just for the sake of simplicity.

I can and I will!!

 

[Diddy Kong]

If selecting echo characters is easy and not in the way of the main cast, then I'm fine with them adding quite a few. I don't know if I want my favorite characters as them though, since I'd like new movesets. But I guess I wouldn't mind Impa over Ike with the big sword, since Ike is awesome now. But would they add an echo character of one franchise over another I wonder?
Other than that just give me more cuties, like they did with Daisy :D

Impa as a Echo of Ike? Guess it could happen, but the way they hold their blades is totally different. If Impa where to be a Echo, it'll be of Sheik and they'd use the Skyward Sword version for this. If Hyrule Warriors Impa would be in, she could use assets of Ike, Cloud and Sheik but be mostly unique. With this huge cast we have at the moment, there's a far bigger chance of this happening anyway.

It becomes even more likely because Bayonetta, Corrin and Cloud also where created by using assets of other characters.

 

[K.K. Rooler ♫]

I personally don't see any cross-franchise echo characters, but I would love to be proven wrong

 

[Aetheri]

Cloud's moveset is surprisingly appropriate for HW Impa...as Sm4sh modding as shown us.

 

[Primal Cookie]

I've thought up of two echo fighter possibilities I haven't really seen anyone talk about. (Though this could be encaustic not many people played the game the first character is from, though I am genuinely surprised no one thought out of the second).

1. Zanza (god form or final boss form) from Xenoblade Chronicles as an echo of Shulk as they both use the same Monado.
2. Malos from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 as an echo of Shulk, as like Shulk, he uses a Monado and some of the same arts as the Monado Boy.

But the Xenoblade series symbol is still the Monado, so a XC2 character wouldn’t really work in that situation. Personally, I prefer the air a simple X as the icon, but as it’s staying as it is it seems only XC1 characters can be in. Potentially a disconfirm for Elma as well.

As for Zanza... eh, it could work, but I don’t see it happening. If they gave Shulk an alt skin based off of Zanza though I would main it.

 

[WertQuadNine]

But the Xenoblade series symbol is still the Monado, so a XC2 character wouldn’t really work in that situation. Personally, I prefer the air a simple X as the icon, but as it’s staying as it is it seems only XC1 characters can be in. Potentially a disconfirm for Elma as well.

As for Zanza... eh, it could work, but I don’t see it happening. If they gave Shulk an alt skin based off of Zanza though I would main it.

I highly doubt a series logo would rule out a character. I wouldn't worry about that

 

[PixelPasta]

I would not be surprised to see any of these characters as echoes:
Funky Kong
Dark Samus
Ninten
Impa
Isabelle
Octoling
And possibly another Fire Emblem character like Celica or Chrom.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Personally, anything that's not literally the same character in a different outfit can be an Echo to me.

That's why Dr. Mario is so frustrating, as that's exactly what he is, and not only is he not just an alt costume, but he's not even an Echo. It's just Mario in a jacket! Why are you a separate character! They even gave Mario other alt costumes in this game! Why aren't you one of them!

Aaanyway...anything else is fair game. This stuff about "Well, their moves in their parent game aren't EXACTLY the same, so an Echo wouldn't represent them accurately!" is pointless.

It's probably just for consistency with Melee and Smash 4. I doubt we will get another character who is just a pre-existing fighter wearing different clothing.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

IMO, the most likely echos are the following.

Dixie Kong
Chrom
Isabelle
Dark Samus
Shadow

I could see stuff like Impa and Ninten, but I feel these are more likely. At least for me imo.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

But the Xenoblade series symbol is still the Monado, so a XC2 character wouldn’t really work in that situation. Personally, I prefer the air a simple X as the icon, but as it’s staying as it is it seems only XC1 characters can be in. Potentially a disconfirm for Elma as well.

As for Zanza... eh, it could work, but I don’t see it happening. If they gave Shulk an alt skin based off of Zanza though I would main it.

the fire emblem series logo says hi

 

[DMurr]

I'm seeing a lot of agreement with who the likeliest echoes are, and my expectations are definitely in line with that too. I think we'll get two more full newcomers, of which King K. Rool will be one of, and likely a third party character for the other.

Impa (Sheik)
Dixie Kong (Diddy Kong)
Isabell (Villager)
Chrom (Ike)
Dark Samus (Samus)
Bandana Dee (~Kirby)

These are the most likely echoes, in my opinion. I get the impression they're pulling from the Ballot and Sm4sh release-time popularity for this, so anything newer than then is likely not going to be considered until they inevitably make DLC.

 

[Teeb147]

Bandana dee can't inhale, so I don't see it. Plus he's pretty much known with his spear now. I think it'd be a unique one.
It's harder than I thought to come up with echoes that'd work easy :O

 

[DMurr]

Daisy couldn't float before, so..

If they're not opposed to sharing moves from multiple characters, Bandana Dee could take a move or two from Meta Knight. More than that many would add time for balancing which defeats the purpose of echoes though.

 

[Teeb147]

Daisy couldn't float before, so..

Actually, they never showed Daisy float or pull turnips in her trailers. I think that definitely means something. (it's possible she can't or has diff kinds)
I think they want to stay true to the characters as much as they can.

(here are the trailersif you wanna see for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72IWIks56yE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyzJnpX2ZcY )

 

[Homelessvagrant]

It's less of leap of logic to believe that Daisy can float then it is for Bandana Dee to inhale. Bandana Dee has an established fighter identity that Daisy lacks. In a lot of ways daisy is like a blank slate given that her only inspiration to draw from are mario side games where everyone shares a majority of similar abilities.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Daisy couldn't float before, so..

If they're not opposed to sharing moves from multiple characters, Bandana Dee could take a move or two from Meta Knight. More than that many would add time for balancing which defeats the purpose of echoes though.

it was never established that daisy lacks the ability to float though, her floating isn't some weird out of character when it's never been stated one way or the other

 

[DarthEnderX]

Actually, they never showed Daisy float or pull turnips in her trailers.

(here are the trailersif you wanna see for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72IWIks56yE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyzJnpX2ZcY )

Uh...that second trailer definitely shows her floating.

 

[Teeb147]

Uh...that second trailer definitely shows her floating.

where? the umbrella? that's not float..

 

[DMurr]

*shrug*

I don't know. He doesn't have a mouth so he literally can't inhale, but he could maybe have Meta Knight's Mach Tornado as a move holding his spear instead. I put him at the bottom of my list for a reason, but he's someone who doesn't necessarily make sense that I could still see. Bill Trinen's explanation of echo fighters seem pretty clear though: only characters whose height/weight/stats are all the same. It's more or less only a cosmetic thing, maybe a slight change a la Lucina's (lack of a) tipper. So, maybe Bandana Dee isn't really feasible with this description.

There's a fairly small cross section of characters who are rather popular at the right time who match existing movesets, which, I imagine, we see a lot of people suggesting the same ones.

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

It's looking incredibly likely that Dark Samus is coming as an echo fighter. In the E3 build, Samus' 8th color pallet (the Dark Samus one) has been swapped out with a generic black suit. Couple this with the fact Dark Samus was not seen at all during the E3 presentation or invitational, and it looks like she may well be one of the upcoming Echo Fighters.

 

[Deleted member]

My top hopes for Echo fighters are:

Dark Samus - The fact that it seems plausible just kinda sets the hype up for me. I wouldn't mind it's inclusion at all.

Isabelle/Animal Villager - Isabelle is my favorite Animal Crossing character but I wouldn't mind if other animal villagers could be a part of the same character as costumes. I call for them being echo fighters because I have a hard time imagining a moveset representing Animal Crossing in any other way than what we've already seen.

Some FE mage - Tharja and Linde perhaps, as echos for Zelda and where the phantom is some FE general character instead? I dunno might be farfetched but I think the idea is cool. Just no goshdarn sword guys anymore pls.

Octolings - Speaks for itself. Echos for Inkling. With the Octo expansion coming out recently I can see a lot of people being excited for the inclusion of Octolings in, well, a lot of things. They deserve the limelight too, dangit!

Or Pearl or Marina - Same setup as Octolings but incredibly less plausible. Just listing them cause I like them so much.

I'd list more but they wouldn't really make sense as echo fighters in hindsight so I won't.

 

[Gallowglass]

You know who would be the perfect echo character for Wario?

Pigma from Starfox

 

[pupNapoleon]

The E3 conference has given the clones Dark Pit, Lucina, and newcomer Daisy the term "Echo fighter" so what does that mean in terms of gamplay? The trailer showed a expanding roster-confriming that they have a roster slot so, does it mean anything? And who else may become one?

Questions I have about Echo Characters:

1- Will Echo fighters take up a slot in the roster selection screen?
2- Will Alpha and the Bowser kids be considered Echo characters?
3- How is Young Link Different From Toon Link?

The reason I ask these next to each other is because
If 1 is yes, is the character number the only thing difference than them being another fully singular character?
So the answer must be no.
But if 1 is no, then 2- why are they not listed with an E?
And if those are in fact other Echo characters, does that mean maybe 3- both links are actually echo fighters? They even looked to be the same size.

 

[PsySmasher]

Questions I have about Echo Characters:

1- Will Echo fighters take up a slot in the roster selection screen?
2- Will Alpha and the Bowser kids be considered Echo characters?
3- How is Young Link Different From Link?

The reason I ask these next to each other is because
If 1 is yes, is the character number the only thing difference than them being another fully singular character?
So the answer must be no.
But if 1 is no, then 2- why are they not listed with an E?
And if those are in fact other Echo characters, does that mean maybe 3- both links are actually echo fighters? They even looked to be the same size.

1. It seems like they will they have their own slot on the CSS. Considering how the trailers seem to portray them as separate entities rather than palette swaps.
2. No, Alph and Koopalings share the exact same EVERYTHING with Oliver and Bowser Jr. respectively (if it's the same as the Smash 4). Echo fighters have at least some different properties, taunts, victory poses etc. The reason that echo fighters have an epsilon next to their number is that they're heavily based on other characters, but not exact carbon copies.
3. Young Link seems to play similarly to SSB4 Link. SSBU Link has quite of bit of changes (can throw arrows, can fire two arrows, Smash creates a projectile at 0%, you have to manually blow up bombs etc.). They're not considered echoes.

 

[pupNapoleon]

My thoughts:

• Impa for Sheik. Only more likely since we have nearly every Zelda character in the game represent a different game art.
• Octolings for Inkings. Already confirmed they play exactly the same.
• Dark Samus for Samus seems like a big possibility. At least since their models are identical. They could play differently but they certainly do not need to play the differently.
• Shadow for Sonic. Theyve always shared a weird yin yang parallel.
• Ms Pacman for Pacman. I hope they got the rights
• Isabelle for Villager. Hell, they could add every AC character under this.

Made a list of what I consider to be likely echo characters:
- Toon Zelda (Zelda) - unless Echoes have to be literal body swaps, this could work as Phantom Zelda is more of a Toon thing
- Celica (Robin) - Swap weapon use mechanic for Pichu's recoil mechanic and it's basically Celica once the tomes are recolored

These differences sound pretty drastic. I'm pretty certain an Echo fighter is one that is balanced to be equal to the original. Meaning, that using either does not give you any direct advantage over the other (and that neither would appear in scoreboards over the other, as was part of the issue with them not being swaps in the past).

3. Young Link seems to play similarly to SSB4 Link. SSBU Link has quite of bit of changes (can throw arrows, can fire two arrows, Smash creates a projectile at 0%, you have to manually blow up bombs etc.). They're not considered echoes.

Pardon. I meant how is Young Link different from Toon Link?

 

[PsySmasher]

Pardon. I meant how is Young Link different from Toon Link?

Not too many differences. Toon Link has a different FSmash, DSmash is 2 hits (if it's the same as Smash 4). Young Link has fire arrows.
That's all I could think off. There are probably some more tiny differences.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I think I figured out why people took after Echo characters when they hated Clones before. It's all in the psychology. By acknoledging them as seperate from "real" fighters by giving them a label, it changes the internal narrative from "these are lazily done characters" to "these are characters that wouldn't be in otherwise". So instead of people dreading their bigger character ends up as clone, they're ecstatic that their lesser characters could be in the game.

 

[Teeb147]

Pardon. I meant how is Young Link different from Toon Link?

Young Link is based off melee, so you can compare toon link from brawl and 4 with yl from melee if you want to see.

Notably, arrows are different, but toon link also has some different moves, his neutral air is a double sword attack front and back, while young link is a kick like regular link, and toon link's down air shoots downwards, while young link doesnt and it's a stab like link's. They also changed toon link's forward smash in ultimate, it doesn't seem to be a two hit move, or at least the hitboxes are different. Oh yeah, and young link has a double kick for his back air like link, while toon link does a sword swipe. Almost forgot, toon link's up smash is just one hit, instead of 3. That's about it. they might make some tiny changes besides that.

I think people might use young link if they want something similar to link but smaller and with the hookshot (cuz link no longer has it) :

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Random idea: how would you react if Smash Ultimate had a Season pass of a set number of characters and stages and the bonus for buying in/ getting all the DLC was an Echo character, say Octolings?

I'd much rather a Mii costume myself but just throwing the idea out there.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Random idea: how would you react if Smash Ultimate had a Season pass of a set number of characters and stages and the bonus for buying in/ getting all the DLC was an Echo character, say Octolings?

I'd much rather a Mii costume myself but just throwing the idea out there.

I’d be pretty pissed. Anti-consumer tactics like locking DLC behind other DLC need to die out.

 

[Nintendotard]

Dillon as a Sonic echo fighter wouldn't be too far off huh?

 

[GoodGrief741]

Yeah, he would. Not a lot of overlap there, and the skeleton is way too different.

 

[Deleted member]

It becomes even more likely because Bayonetta, Corrin and Cloud also where created by using assets of other characters.

huh?

I don't think so...

 

[Fane]

Chrom (I side with the people arguing that his attacks wouldn't make sense to be based off of Ike when he's using the same weapon as Lucina, and she's already an echo so that's just redundant. Sorry Chrom)

I really disagree here. Just because Chrom wields Falchion doesn't mean he'd play similarly to Lucina or Marth. The ladder two are more lithe and quick making them have faster movements and giving them a more precise technique with the sword.

Chrom is more bulky than both Marth and Lucina. He obviously has more muscle and armor than the two so it's really not a reach to say he'd make a good Echo Fighter for Ike, really the differences they'd need to make is removing the fire effects from Chrom along with number changes.

The only thing I believe would put a wedge in this is that we already have Lucina as an Echo Fighter in Fire Emblem, and we also already have two reps from Awakening. Two Fire Emblem Echo Fighters and three Fire Emblem: Awakening reps is a little much.

Then again, three Links is also a little much so...

 

[ZTurtle]

I really disagree here. Just because Chrom wields Falchion doesn't mean he'd play similarly to Lucina or Marth. The ladder two are more lithe and quick making them have faster movements and giving them a more precise technique with the sword.

Chrom is more bulky than both Marth and Lucina. He obviously has more muscle and armor than the two so it's really not a reach to say he'd make a good Echo Fighter for Ike, really the differences they'd need to make is removing the fire effects from Chrom along with number changes.

The only thing I believe would put a wedge in this is that we already have Lucina as an Echo Fighter in Fire Emblem, and we also already have two reps from Awakening. Two Fire Emblem Echo Fighters and three Fire Emblem: Awakening reps is a little much.

Then again, three Links is also a little much so...

The only thing about Chrom being an Echo for Ike is the fact that Falchion is a much lighter sword than Ragnell. Ragnell is a two handed sword (Though Ike wields it with one hand since he's that strong.... I think, someone correct me on that if I'm wrong), and many of Ike's attacks reflect just how heavy it is. It's because Chrom has a heavier build than Marth and Lucina that having him be an Echo of Ike would be awkward. Why would someone who looks stronger physically swing a sword so much slower than the other two with the same sword?

A good example to show the issue of Chrom being an Echo of Ike can be seen when comparing Marth/Lucina's F Smash to Ike's. Both are swinging their swords in a similar arc down to the ground but Marth and Lucina do so almost immediately with one hand, while for Ike, it not only takes longer to bring his sword down, but he has to hold it over his head with two hands, and it makes a noticeable thud when it hits the ground, because of how heavy it is. Why would Chrom have a harder time wielding Falchion than Marth and Lucina? I suppose if they made a few of his moves faster and altered a lot of his animations, it could work, but then he'd be a clone more on the level of Dr. Mario rather than an Echo, and I'm not sure if they would consider the extra effort needed to make his attacks look right to be worth it.