Ducktales Mafia - Game over

[Classy Raptor]

Ryker, we are getting caught up over SEMANTICS.

@ZB: This was the post I found very non-committal. Like you start a push on Ryker, then try to level with him? It could've been the speed we were reading, trying to get a post in, but I remember looking at that twice and thinking non-committal. I'll check back, and re-read with my better half to see what we think on this.

 

[ZacBlock]

That was me defending Ryker's accusation of not giving reads. It has nothing to do with my push on him. I'll wait for your re-read.

 

[Classy Raptor]

Yeah, I just got caught up again. I'll let Glyph do a run through as well though before we entirely dismiss you guys, because after re-reading I'm finding you sitting better in my book.

However, Unvote. A new vote will be re-instated once I run some reads by Glyph.

 

[PeopleFacePunch]

I'm not sure how the hydra feels about ZB, but I think they're town. They have shown scum hunting, they have given us information to work with, and their play in general looks townie. For example, his conversation with GLG made me feel he was townie more than scummy because of the questions he was asking.

TSN on the other hand is town for both sides of the hydra. TSN has beaten us to saying a lot of things that we wanted to say ourselves, his scum hunting and pushing on Ryker makes us think town over scum, and we think what they're getting called scummy for is absolute BS.

Case on Ryker GO!

Eww, gross. That ultimatum doesn't sit well with me. Unvote Vote Nymph.

Why are you putting things into TvS so fast? There's not nearly enough information to make such a claim. How is it over the top and how is it fake?

PFP is null. Zacblock is ehhhhhhhhhhhh. Nymph is scum. Asid Wash should be my buddy this game.

Who is in Nymph?

This vote looks so bad.

Voting someone for saying they think something is TvS looks like a huge BS reason to vote someone. Both of the players he was referencing have posted enough info to consider them atleast null-town or null-scum.

Lol at calling someone out for buddying and then asking to buddy someone.

And for the record, Soup is null as well.

I don't like Soup's reads in the above post, though. Not ruling out Nymph vs. Soup as SvS.

Welp... SvS...

The post below it doesn't clear this either, since you voted Nymph for saying it was TvS pretty much.

Gross, sick nasty.

Don't like Soup push at all. Makes me want to put Soup on my town list.

@Asid Wash - That includes Kuzzy, so yeah sure. Unless of course he comes in and looks like a ****ing moron.

Good job describing your play this game

Putting Soup on your townlist because of TSN's push is blech. Why you did this now over when he was initially being voted is confusing as well.

Because it makes no sense. Soup is always pushing and I don't know why you fault him for it. Then you push Soup on it instead of me. You don't even mention me, nor do you mention Asid Wash. Instead you stay on the weaker player. Why is that?

This is really dumb.

The push on Soupa was for him being extremely fake and over the top. You nor AL did this at all, which is why he's pushing Soupa over you. You asking this looks like you're trying to defend Soupa, who you just had as null-scum a while ago.

So? I really don't care at all about the content of his push. I care that he pushed at all. I didn't push him for anything that would stick. I exaggerated tells. You didn't jump me. You jumped Soup.



It's not a ploy. It's a fact. I pushed PFP for nothing and you jumped Soup. You still stand on me not being worth mentioning. Why?

Making this a martyr makes no sense. You're trying to degrade my argument without addressing it by putting it in quotation marks and adding the word ploy at the end. You have YET to explain why my fake push is not an equal offense to Soup's supposedly fake push.

"So? I really don't care at all about the content of his push" =

Unvote
Vote: Ryker

You don't care about the content of his push, yet you're defending him to hell lol. The content of his push is the reason why he's being voted, so obviously what you're saying is all bull **** and you're obviously looking like scum.

It's definetly not a fact. It's a ploy.

He's said why he's pushing Soupa at least three times, yet you STILL question him on it. This looks like a really desperate attempt to defend him.

J's last sentence in his 96 is exactly what you're trying to do, and its obvious that J/Gova have reasons for voting Soupa over you/AL, so it just makes you look worse.

You make more noise than me, but hypocritical comment aside, what does that post have to do with anything?



Except tunneling is always a scum tell. You offer a scum-tell that you say isn't one. You put forward a null tell and then you say he's town.

Unvote Vote Soup

Questions still stand wrt your double standard, Nymph.

Tunneling is not always a scum tell at ALL. Don't think you're scum for saying this, but just wanted to say that you're wrong.

Disagree'ing with your soupa vote. Not becuase he's townie, but because of the reasons you have. It's obvious he views the tunneling as a town tell, along with him saying that he doesn't like ZB jumping on me shows that he believes ZB being town. Your vote on him is BS, and the flip is also complete BS.

You.
Don't.
Give.
Reads!
That.
Means.
You.
Will.
Always.
Read.
Scum.

When asked to weigh in on something, give the read.

When you said this, he has given reads on 4 out of the 8 players in this game(not including himself)...

Did he not give us reads on TSN and Soupa in the post you quoted...?

There's nothing to grill. You have no scum reads. You have town reads where there shouldn't be town reads.

This makes it look like you're voting him for thinking ZB is town instead of scummy play, which is what your vote should be used for.

So, something that won't stick on GLG and a sideshow commentary on what's going on. When asked for reads, he dodges. He's still dodging. I don't care if he's confident in his reads or not. He's not putting them out there.





Repeat me twice and say something that doesn't apply.



Then do it. There is no defense of Soup. There is an attack aimed at you. There is something you are treating as a scum tell that two players have done and you ignore one instance, say the player isn't worth mentioning, then you jump the weaker player of the two.

And no, I'm not degrading your argument because you pushed Soup. I'm degrading your argument because you ignored the same null tell from another player making your push look completely and totally opportunistic.

By the time this was posted, all of ZB's reads are now out in the public at the bottom of page 3(40 ppp).

What? How will that not stick on GLG? The questions they asked GLG look completely legit, and they gave us information on GLG and ZB, so I don't see where you're getting this from. How did ZB dodge you asking for reads? I don't see it at all, since by the time you made this post, every single read he has is out in the public.

Question, Ryker. Is it not obvious that his reads are shown in this post?

I said leaning scum on GLG, leaning town on TSN. I could exaggerate like you do and say scum and town respectively, but I don't have nearly enough information to actually be that confident. If I had Soup leaning one way, I would say so. He's completely unknown to me right now.

AW/Chaco/DH haven't given us **** to work with.

Ryker - leaning scum; the pressure you're applying is not as logical as I'm used to seeing from you; I'll elaborate after you respond to TSN's last post
PFP - was leaning slightly town, but recent posts (most notably the last one I quoted) I'd like to see explained

because based on what you're saying, it looks like his reads are no where to be found at all.

No, it really looks like a defense on Soupa over an attack on TSN. When a player does something, they do it in different ways, based on different reactions, and probably won't be thought of as the same for it. The way you voted me and unvoted me, and the way soupa voted and unvoted me are completely different. You unvoted me when you found someone else to be more scummy (aka TSN), while soupa was just like "I'm fine with you now" and actually redirected a question to you in that exact same post. His unvote looks like he didn't care about it at all, while your unvote just looks like you found someone to pressure other than me.

You're degrading his argument because he pressed soup over you. Thats exactly what you're doing, and you're trying to make it look like thats not the case.

Herp and derp. What do you want to "go" about? I've pointed out what I think is wrong with you. You are voting me because I called you out on a double standard and because I think TBlock shouldn't be on anyone's town list?

TSN never said ANYTHING like that about you at all, yet you call them scum for it. Welp.

No, I'm not happy. Those reads had to be dragged out.



I'm not talking about other aspects of Soup's play. Talking about all the aspects of Soup's play, I'm voting him. I'm talking about the part that was originally the core of the argument.

TSN is not my top pick for the day. If I could shoot him right now, I would.

Is that scummy?

Except those reads were there since the bottom of page 3 (post 119 or 120).

Already explained second paragraph, but just incase you don't want to read up, his unvote and your unvote were COMPLETELY different in every way, shape, or form.

That's what I thought he meant, but 136 is an open invitation to clarify what he's talking about so I can expose it for bull****, so surely he would have corrected me instead of trying to put a snake in my boot.

The reasons you gave for him thinking you're scum were complete and total bull ****. Of course he's going to call you out for Strawmanning.

He also corrected you along with calling you out, which is exactly what he should have done.

Rykers play this game has been absolute ****, and we think he's scum for it.

 

[PeopleFacePunch]

EBWOP: "Saying it was TvS" should be "Saying something was TvS".

 

[~ Gheb ~]

~The Savage Nymph~ [1] - DatHydra
giraffelasergun [1] - ZacBlock
Soupamario [2] - Ryker, Asid Wash
Ryker [2] - ~The Savage Nynph~, PeopleFacePunch
ZacBlock [1] - giraffelasergun

Not voting: Soupamario, Classy Raptor

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

t's obvious he views the tunneling as a town tell,

when the **** did i ever say this.

y'all making it hard to sit in the sidelines.

 

[Asid Wash]

i'm never lynched.

You get yourself modkilled too fast for us to lynch you.

Reading through.

 

[Asid Wash]

AW, is Soup scum or just useless? Are you going to push anyone else toDay, other than Soup?

If someone jumps up and down screaming "I'm scum" louder than he is now, sure. For the moment, I'm satisfied on pushing the guy who's stubbornly refusing to do anything of use like a child. At worst it's a policy lynch. At best, we catch scum. I don't feel he's just useless as there's a difference between not being able to do anything through circumstance and outright choosing not to. The former is just antitown. The latter is ProScum.

 

[Asid Wash]

How so? He just pushed me for reads. Anyone could do that.

He did it first? I liked the point that if you're not pushing reads, you always read scummy. I may be blinded by his sea of unusually bad posts but eh.

I won't deny I was sidelining in the Ryker-TSN conversation. After questioning GLG (in which I was not sitting on the sidelines), I came back the next day in the middle of Ryker and TSN's conversation. I made that sideline comment ("Not liking...") to show that it was at the beginning where I saw something was off, but I wanted to wait for the conversation to progress instead of tainting it with my interjections. I fully intended to question Ryker after I saw more. My first post against him should align with this.

Seems like this post was made halfway through your read... do you still think I'm sitting on the sidelines?

At this point, somewhat. You're starting to actively engage the game by this specific post and post reads though so not very sideliney. I just wish you weren't so wishy-washy.

Why do you think he felt a need to agree with himself like that then? Why bring up the post at all? Do you think GLG's post was particularly good? Do you think it's odd that he quotes a post by GLG just to say "i like this" right after I specifically asked him what his stance on GLG was?

Considering it's a parrot, no, it's not a good post. I can just as easily copy Broto saying that TSN is using a double standard. Am I creating content? No, just restating it. It's not new content and, therefore, it's not a useful post. I don't care about things already being said by people. I shouldn't be forced to reread the same things I've said.

I read the post as null though. I don't know what I should be getting out of it. It's obvious you're going to agree with yourself.

 

[Asid Wash]

As for me,

>implying I have stances

AKA, "WL spends all game carrying Asidoh" tier.

 

[Asid Wash]

smart man.

/can totally get away with being scummy as ****

the high life, it's good.

i hate this post i hate this post i hate this post i hate this post

does no one else feel taunted by this kid?

 

[Classy Raptor]

i hate this post i hate this post i hate this post i hate this post

does no one else feel taunted by this kid?

Nope. He's justifying his bad play to himself as being able to whatever he wants. It's not taunting, it's just sad.

 

[Classy Raptor]

Let's start coming together guys, we need to reach a consensus within the next 2-3 days so we have time to talk about things and draw information before running the deadline. Expect a post from us as soon as we get together and discuss our reads.

 

[ZacBlock]

I think I like PFP's 204, but there's something odd about it, and I can't figure out why. Maybe because it's focusing exclusively on the content of Ryker's posts instead of examining the motivation behind them?

Soup is an idiot, but I don't want to allow ourselves to be too distracted by him. I doubt we have a vig, but he would make a good shot.

Scummiest to Towniest:
giraffelasergun
Ryker
Asid Wash
Classy Raptor
Soupamario
PeopleFacePunch
DatHydra
~The Savage Nymph~

TSN strongly town largely because of conflict with Ryker. If Ryker were to flip town he would likely not be my number one town read.

AW is eh... the way they came in to address the pressure on Ryker was odd, as they sorta brushed it off while still making sure to acknowledge it (see post 166). Then they focus hard on Soup, which is an easy case to make, as it wouldn't implicate you even on townSoup flip with the way Soup has been playing.

ToDay, I want to lynch GLG. Ryker toMorrow if he flips scum.

 

[Classy Raptor]

Rykers play this game has been absolute ****, and we think he's scum for it.

This is ALL that your case portrays, it's a mere distaste for Ryker's play. I read through your entire case for an actual pinpoint tell and there were none to be found. You're strongest point in the entire wall, in my opinion, is the odd vote on TSN. However, you cannot even begin to call that a tell because I feel that vote could be used to gauge a reaction. So that raises a question;

Is it often for Ryker to try getting rises out of people?

I personally have never played with Ryker, and Glyph seems to be away at the moment so I can't talk to him. (I work tonight and wanted to make sure to get a post in.) Continuing on, it is something I can see a player doing if it is common for them, the questions he followed up with seemed to apply some pressure "Why are you putting things into TvS so fast?" "How is it over the top and how is it fake?" It looks to me that Ryker just wants a clear stance on TSN and is having to dig in a bit, per se, to find out.

Also, PFP, your entire case is based on the lines of "Ryker is dumb.", which mirror's back to the accuser in ALL cases. Also, I believe the classic question is "Dumb or scum?" So what is it, PFP, is he just dumb or scum? Improve your case on Ryker, and see if you can convince me. Because so far, I'm not seeing much out of place with Ryker. From what I hear that is standard Ryker.

@ZB: Why're we listed below Soup on your list when you've voiced many opinions on Soup, but none on us? What justifies this placement? Or is it just a placeholder?

@DH: What're your thoughts on the case on Ryker? GLG?

@TSN: Your vote is currently on Ryker, but do you agree with the case that PFP presented?

@AW: At this point who do you feel the play for today is? (Who does WL, and who does Asdioh feel? Or is it conjoined finally?)

That's all for know. More to come.

 

[Classy Raptor]

Mod: Prods where applicable, please.

Slow game is slow. I've seen people in this game active all day.

 

[PeopleFacePunch]

@ZB: Motivation behind his posts? Do you think he has any good motivation in the posts I quoted?

@CR: What?

It's not that Ryker is playing dumb, its that hes playing bad.

You're calling a vote "gauging for reactios," but if the vote looks suspicious and is a bad vote in general (BS reasons), should we just ignore that because he may be fishing for reactions?

Here's why we think he's scum:
- His vote on TSN (It was really bad. Voting someone because they said "I think this is TvS" is a very bad vote), which looks more suspicious after he says that Soupa v TSN could be SvS.
- He asked questions that aren't helpful to town at ALL (for example: asking ZacBlock for his reads after he gave them, asking why TSN isn't pushing Ryker just because they're pushing Soupa, etc.)
- Degrading the argument between himself and TSN just because TSN isn't pushing Ryker, which is stupid because the content on Soupa's push is different than what someone would push for Ryker, but he ignored the content on the Soupa push.
- Defending Soupa, who is also scummy. This is scummy because of the way he's defending him (via ignoring the content on the Soupa push).
- Generalizing the reasons for TSN calling Ryker scummy, which were COMPLETELY wrong and it looked like an attempt to paint TSN as scummy and call his reasons BS.
- When given why someone thinks ZacBlock is town, he calls ZB out for "dodging giving reads," which he never did and he called the whole debate between ZB and GLG something that wouldn't stick as a way to down play his scum hunting. It doesn't look good at all.

Honestly, if thats all you can get from my case, then I don't care what you think. Ryker isn't dumb for sure, so hes scum.

 

[Classy Raptor]

@PFP: Sorry for initially calling your focal point "him being dumb". It's a weird case. So, work with me here. I reread in context, and through your case. It is a bit convincing, but let's break it down.

First off, how confident are you that Ryker is scum?

Secondly, let's go through your list one by one, and define them by tells! This will help me and everyone else, GREATLY, understand your case.

The Vote on TSN:

I would consider this, if applied to any tell, just voting for no reason; poor reasoning. However, that is if it is outside of Ryker's meta to do so. Agree/Disagree? Also, is it outside of Ryker's meta? I'm not familiar with him.

Unhelpful Questions

Generally I would classify what you titled this as, as Derailment. However, the questions he kept repeating and asking, while derailing, were also just dumb and looked as if he wasn't paying attention. I will give you this tell however. +1

Content Push

I really do not know what to classify this as. I would say deliberately avoiding the queries of others. What do you believe? +1

Soup Defense

I would like to call this a chainsaw defense, however, he flips on him too... That is very odd. Looks like he wanted to defend him, then flipped off of him after he saw it was a losing battle and saw the potential in a Soup wagon. +3

The three tells here are: Chainsaw Defense, Wagoning, and Opportunism Agree/Disagree?

Generalization

I don't believe this is really a strong tell, but however, coupled with the other behaviors, I'll give you this one as well. +1

ZB Reads

I really don't know exactly if that can even fit anywhere other than like, not paring attention or just being plain bad...However, there is a reason that could be there. Sometimes scum ask for excessive explanation from co-mafia. I can lightly see that being the case here.

Vote: Ryker
FoS: TSN

Also, since Ryker's presence has near vanished, and the already quiet, sidelining ZB could've very well gotten onto him. I think it could be that case, but it's a stretch. Thoughts?

 

[Asid Wash]

This is ALL that your case portrays, it's a mere distaste for Ryker's play. I read through your entire case for an actual pinpoint tell and there were none to be found. You're strongest point in the entire wall, in my opinion, is the odd vote on TSN. However, you cannot even begin to call that a tell because I feel that vote could be used to gauge a reaction. So that raises a question;

Is it often for Ryker to try getting rises out of people?

I personally have never played with Ryker, and Glyph seems to be away at the moment so I can't talk to him. (I work tonight and wanted to make sure to get a post in.) Continuing on, it is something I can see a player doing if it is common for them, the questions he followed up with seemed to apply some pressure "Why are you putting things into TvS so fast?" "How is it over the top and how is it fake?" It looks to me that Ryker just wants a clear stance on TSN and is having to dig in a bit, per se, to find out.

Also, PFP, your entire case is based on the lines of "Ryker is dumb.", which mirror's back to the accuser in ALL cases. Also, I believe the classic question is "Dumb or scum?" So what is it, PFP, is he just dumb or scum? Improve your case on Ryker, and see if you can convince me. Because so far, I'm not seeing much out of place with Ryker. From what I hear that is standard Ryker.

It's hard for me to take this post seriously when you keep saying how your other head isn't around and you've never played with Ryker. Ruins everything you said, really.

@AW:[/B] At this point who do you feel the play for today is? (Who does WL, and who does Asdioh feel? Or is it conjoined finally?)

I want Soup dead. The problem is, I don't think people see him as anything more than "useless," and therefore aren't willing to bandwagon him. I feel his obstinate denial to commit to the game is incredibly scummy and, even if he is just a townie deflecting all effort to other games at the moment, it's best to rid us of him now rather than in LyLo. As Broto said earlier, "If you don't give any reads, you will always read scum." Soup has been rather adamant not to really give us anything.

Like, really, if there's any player in this game that needs pressure at least, it's Soup. The fact that people are flipping to Broto is kinda irksome, although I also hold suspicions of Broto, as I feel he's not looking for any of the right things this game, but I'd rather get **** out of Soup than Broto. Broto will comply, Soup, apparently, will not.

 

[Asid Wash]

AW is eh... the way they came in to address the pressure on Ryker was odd, as they sorta brushed it off while still making sure to acknowledge it (see post 166). Then they focus hard on Soup, which is an easy case to make, as it wouldn't implicate you even on townSoup flip with the way Soup has been playing.

I want **** from Soup. I'm not going to get **** from Soup unless he comes down off his high horse and realizes he is, in fact, lynchable. Do not fault me for wanting to get reads and a read from him.

I do believe Broto is scum. Just that specific post you reference--166--is not why I think he's scum. I want him to get back to me on the questions I asked him earlier before I make a definitive flip to him.

 

[Classy Raptor]

Read above Asid. Reread and whatnot, and I agree I had no knowledge on Ryker, but I did the best I could this last time without Glyph.

 

[Asid Wash]

I know, but it's hard for me to accept your opinion as valid when you spend half the post saying "I don't know him though". It's probably needless undermining though, and I guess I should move on. It's a nitpick anyway.

However, why the flip to Broto based off PFP's evidence? Why are you essentially allowing PFP to guide your vote, even in just this brief instance?

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

@TSN: Your vote is currently on Ryker, but do you agree with the case that PFP presented?

Yes.

Vote: Ryker
FoS: TSN

Do you think the argument is SvS or are you thinking it's SvT and if Ryker flips town, we are who you will go after next?

AW, this hydra agrees with Soupa and his dumb***ery, but we feel Ryker is scummier.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

ALRIGHT.

i'm actually gonna do something now.

hold on, formulating my sideline thoughts.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

naw people, not dumb, overly ignorant for no reason.

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

Soupamario, are you trying to get us to lynch you?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

no. why do you think i'm actually gonna do something now?

nothing has happened, i'm giving people the show they deserve. *wink* *nudge* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

FoS: Soupamario

 

[Classy Raptor]

I know, but it's hard for me to accept your opinion as valid when you spend half the post saying "I don't know him though". It's probably needless undermining though, and I guess I should move on. It's a nitpick anyway.

However, why the flip to Broto based off PFP's evidence? Why are you essentially allowing PFP to guide your vote, even in just this brief instance?

It is needless undermining and only useful when applied to the meta, which I have ignored in this case to go through PFP's case.

It was his evidence and the other that I found through a reread. No one guides my vote, you obviously aren't familiar with me.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

****.

going to play smash with koozy and ryker, BRB.

 

[Classy Raptor]

Yes.



Do you think the argument is SvS or are you thinking it's SvT and if Ryker flips town, we are who you will go after next?

AW, this hydra agrees with Soupa and his dumb***ery, but we feel Ryker is scummier.

No, you're misconstruing what I'm saying. If Ryker flips scum, you will be who I come after. A I'm not certain whether it is S v S, or T v , all I saw was a slight POSSIBLE tell exhibited. The FoS is pending on Ryker's flip, as well as your continued play.

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

If Ryker flips scum, you will be who I come after.

If you say this.

A I'm not certain whether it is S v S, or T v , all I saw was a slight POSSIBLE tell exhibited.

How can you not be certain if it's S v S? You would only come after us after a Ryker scum-flip if you thought we were his partner, therefore making it S v S.

 

[Classy Raptor]

****.

going to play smash with koozy and ryker, BRB.

Really and truly just get out, please. You're doing nothing at all, and are a true waste of space in this game when someone who will actually play could be replaced in. Play the game.

 

[Classy Raptor]

How can you not be certain if it's S v S? You would only come after us after a Ryker scum-flip if you thought we were his partner, therefore making it S v S.

Wrong. Going after you is circumstantial based on Ryker. And there is no certainty in this, I said it was a stretch. That's why I'm not placing too much faith in it, and only FoS'd you. However, you did not weigh the option of TvT. Do you have knowledge the rest of us do not possess, TSN?

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

Wrong. Going after you is circumstantial based on Ryker. And there is no certainty in this, I said it was a stretch. That's why I'm not placing too much faith in it, and only FoS'd you.

So tell me who you think is scum based on RykerTown flip?

However, you did not weigh the option of TvT. Do you have knowledge the rest of us do not possess, TSN?

It wasn't us bringing up the TvS/SvS/TvT stuff in the first place. Are you actually serious with this question btw?

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

Correction, we did but we were going at it through your vote/FoS.

 

[Classy Raptor]

So tell me who you think is scum based on RykerTown flip?

That has a lot of dependents, but right now I'd like to see GLG or Soup go. Soup is just worthless, and GLG isn't much better.


It wasn't us bringing up the TvS/SvS/TvT stuff in the first place. Are you actually serious with this question btw?

No, just prodding to see how you'd react.

 

[Asid Wash]

It is needless undermining and only useful when applied to the meta, which I have ignored in this case to go through PFP's case.

It was his evidence and the other that I found through a reread. No one guides my vote, you obviously aren't familiar with me.

Fair enough.

And it looked like it was. My only instance of playing with you was in RE4 briefly (and I really emphasizes the brevity of my presence in RE4), so I have no knowledge of your playstyle. But instead of posting purely your own thoughts, you basically went through his list of reasons and said whether or not you agreed with it.

 

[Asid Wash]

But really, after that, you've pretty much been operating on our wavelength.