Drew is an Oppressive Mod: The Tourney

[Xelic]

Anyway, as I was saying:

Hylian speaks the truth, Drew. I know you locked DoH's thread because he was "telling others what to do" and that it wasn't tournament-related, but it isn't as though we have strict rules on this small section of the forum preventing us from mentioning anything that is not tourney-related (though his WAS).

This topic is relevant to Texas.

Also, since the topic has finally been allowed, I will be re-posting its predecessors:

Unlock DoH's Thread.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It spoke the truth, except for the part about me trying to date him; we all know it's the reverse.

Also, KKK: Stop your nonsense. You made no argument at all, and basically just called everyone out for playing high tiers. Okay, good job, you're a hero, we all feel bad about ourselves, etc.

Oh wait, I beat Cave's Doc and Y.Link with Bowser, and also beat his Doc with Yoshi. By the way, Cave's Ness absolutely *****. My Link is amazing and yet got destroyed by Vash in a Link ditto at FS2. Lee ***** people with Mario at the same tourney. Galt sucks *** but his G&W is still pretty **** decent. Smiles has a dirty Luigi. SOS and I have mean Pichus. Chang's Mewtwo does miraculous and scary things. These are all of our off characters. Everyone plays low tiers, but the fact of the matter is that they don't do well in high-level tournament play, so we don't use them there.

Look, we all know and respect that you have an amazing Kirby, but get off your low tier high horse; we've had enough of your whining and poor sportsmanship (DaBR3, anyone?).

Texas, who are we kidding?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We HATE change.

Texas is super conservative. Everyone knows that. We're big fans of oppression and elitism and capitalism. So why would we ever switch to the communism that is Brawl? It's a fauxquality that is forced by minimizing the potential skill gaps as much as possible (via the removal of advanced techniques and ways to make the game fast and introducing such awfulness as tripping) because it's creator is the ultimate scrub:


Quote:
"An example: a game is built with such depth that it brings to a player's mind memories of defeat. As a game designer, I can't ignore this possibility. If, in a multiplayer fighting game, only the winner feels good and the other challengers get no such feeling, then there is really no joy at all. No matter how people play, I want everyone to be happy! Is this asking for too much?...


I don't watch sports much and I don't find them particularly exciting. Whichever player or team wins, I always end up thinking "well done, everyone!" I'm not really cheering for or supporting any one team. If there was something like the World Cup going on, I'd be inclined to cheer for Japan and would be excited, but if the opponent was putting his heart into it, I'd feel that both were the same. "

http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=637

See, Sakurai wants us all to believe in the heart of the cards and then we can pull victories out of our ***** regardless of skill! Looking at the way Brawl is designed, he targeted us as competitive players and tried to stamp us out as much as possible by making the game as easy as he could in order to make the game "fair" by his ****ed up interpretation.

(Pic)

See? He even looks like the kind of kid who used to get beat up and was like 'one day, I'll show you!'

Kidding.

But seriously. Brawl was cute for a while. It was pretty and shiny and zomg, new characters. I'm not going to lie, I love making bluezaft frustrated and grunty when he gets caught in a bullet seed or rolls into a PK upsmash, but its three weeks in and I'm already bored. And I know there are some of you out there who feel the same.

So lets go back to melee. Brawl was like spring break. We can still have it as a side event. It'd be like low tier; except instead of characters, it'd be in terms of game design.

You may be saying to yourself, "but we've been doing this for x number of years! Isn't it time for a change?" and I will say to you that other fighting game communities have been playing their game since the nineties and their communities are still evolving.



Quote:
"Three of the world's most prominent fighting games.

Street Fighter Alpha three
Street Fighter 3: Third Strike
Marvel vs Capcom

Dates of release respectively.

June 29, 1998
May 12, 1999
June 25, 1997 "

We've only had this game for 6 years. Most of us haven't even been playing it that long. I know I haven't. Let's not give up on Melee.

As long as I have known Xelic, there are two things he always tries to get me to do. One is to go out with him, and two is to play Starcraft. That game is old as hell but he and Chang still live for the swarm.

I'm not saying we should abandon brawl; we'll keep it like you keep and cherish any ******** member of your family - in the back with the lights off. But we were tricked like a hooker Peach out of her tip into giving up on Melee so soon. Saying we had our last Melee tournament is like saying that was actually Cher's farewell tour.

Even Gimpyfish is going back to Melee, and he plays Bowser.

Okay, Drew is being really mean to me. Here is the tournament info:

Drew is an Oppressive Mod! THE TOURNEY! May 3rd (This weekend)

The tourney will be held at my apartment, 1109 Pleasant Valley.

Remember, though, I have very limited space and a single setup, so only Austin smashers are allowed to come to this.

RULES:
Best 4/7.
All stages on random except for Icicle Mountain.
All character choices are random, no character repeats during a set, and you have ONE repick option.
Sheik is banned, because she is not on the select screen.
Peach and Popo are also banned, but Daisy and Nana are allowed. Popo is ONLY allowed as a follower.
Weight Watchers Wario is banned because he is too powerful and motivated.

Entry:
$1 dollar + food. I'm serious. If you don't plan on bringing food, you can't come. People need to eat. Winner takes all money and we all share food. So even you losers who suck at Smash get yummies.

It starts at 2 PM. 2PM. 2PM. No later. First place gets all the money, everyone else goes home crying.

POST HERE IF YOU PLAN TO COME SO I CAN FORM A LIST AND RIG THE BRACKETS.

By the way nubs, this is a MELEE TOURNAMENT.

 

[Dr Drew the Dragon]

Fine, discuss away about why melee is still viable or whatever.

Just don't turn this into a bunch of spam about which game is better. Intelligent discussion only! I know that's hard for you guys...

 

[Xelic]

Oh Drew. <3

 

[Kal]

Xelic is full of win.

 

[Galt]

Galt is fully prepared to launch a verbal assault at some topic. Someone just needs to aim the canon, and there'll be flak everywhere, believe you me. But arguing in favor of Melee tournaments instead of Brawl puts me in an awkward position, because I've pretty much said, like, twice now that my final tournament has come and gone, and I've quit practicing in accordance with those statements, and I'm pretty much bored with Smash in general now (except G&W and Luigi). But that won't stop me. I eat your bad logic.

Honestly, it seems to me that, with the release of Brawl, the competitive Smash community's body is still alive, but its soul is gone. For any other game, that would be fine, because the players don't actually like each other anyway, but Smash needs that community. I don't know that any argument at this point is worthwhile, because I don't know that Smash competition will continue to exist a year or three from now. Nintendo discourages competition, and you can only fight that so far--and when they start building that into their games, it's only a matter of time before competition becomes impractical at best.

Sure, you guys have a point that Brawl is the future. But ask yourselves this: if you were getting into a competitive fighter now, is there any chance that you would pick Brawl? Would you recommend it to someone else in that position? I wouldn't. I'd be playing Guilty Gear. If I were just now to discover Brawl without playing Melee, I'd think it was the stupidest "fighting" game ever made, and I'd expect all of its players to be 13-15 years old.

I can't tell you guys not to support it, but I also could never encourage it myself, and I don't see how anyone could. Saying Brawl is the future is, to some degree, begging the question of whether Brawl *deserves* a competitive future. I know theory is distinct from reality in this case, and the country has already switched, and I don't believe it's even possible to switch back now because the community would pretty much just implode, but I can't support it. Instead of telling Texas to go back to Melee because everyone here likes it better, I almost feel like I should be telling everyone to switch to a different fighter. But that's not why we're here, and it's hard to recommend a game which is worse than Melee.

I don't look forward to the future of competitive Smash. I am curious about how it will unfold, though.

And also, for those special rules, I demand the banning of edgehogging/shinespiking G&W. That stuff isn't fair, dawg.

 

[Xelic]

Galt, that's an interesting point of view, and I look forward to more insightful posts of this type, both from yourself and others in this region. I may post a more detailed reply to your thoughts at a later time, but for now, it is simply too late, and I am simply too tired.

Now, on the topic of my tournament, I was thinking of setting it up in the context of what the participants want to do with it. This is in an attempt to rekindle everyone's love for Melee. This might mean the incorporation of a strange/new ruleset, but that is to be determined.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7523/rggsbu6.png

 

[mikeHAZE]

I'm glad to see SoCal isn't alone in returning to Melee.

Good luck guys, know you're not alone...

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154203

 

[Xelic]

I'm certainly glad to see that we have other supporters for our cause. Let's see if we can make this a popular movement.

 

[Kal]

This might mean the incorporation of a strange/new ruleset, but that is to be determined.

Actually, I was thinking of having a Lightning Melee side-event once I started my monthlies.

I guess that's actually incredibly stupid.

If I were just now to discover Brawl without playing Melee, I'd think it was the stupidest "fighting" game ever made, and I'd expect all of its players to be 13-15 years old.

That's a great way to put it, and probably the best counter-argument I've seen for "Brawl is not Melee."

Instead of telling Texas to go back to Melee because everyone here likes it better, I almost feel like I should be telling everyone to switch to a different fighter. But that's not why we're here, and it's hard to recommend a game which is worse than Melee.

It's sad to admit, but probably true. It's just too unlikely that Melee can survive with the insane popularity of Brawl among the community. Most of the people who like it seem to only appreciate the fact that it's a new game, and don't come up with reasonable examples for why it's worth playing competitively. For this reason, we can't convince them to reason correctly. They're attached to the game and its hype, and it's like trying to convince a Christian that he can't use the Bible as proof of God's existence.

I'm working on keeping a Texas scene alive. I don't care about out-of-state; Texas isn't notorious for participating in out-of-state competitions anyway. But I will be hosting monthlies when I get my apartment in the fall, and I'm hoping someone else can host monthlies in such a way that we have two tournaments a month. But it looks like, if Melee doesn't survive like it should, I'm going back to only Chess.

 

[Sars_Pirate]

The popularity and novelty of Brawl won't survive as long as most people here believe in my opinion.

SoCal is the one region in America that played Brawl the longest--so much so that each of us looked up to them for providing us with more Brawl footage or new strategies (as did Austin <3). The people who played in that region have systematically agreed that Brawl is more of a nice detraction than a solid sequel. The most competitive region in the world for Brawl has pushed it aside.

Brawl, when it's all said and done, is basically a game of rock, paper, scissors. It's a game you can do for a while, but there's no way you'll follow the game religiously for years. Melee on the other hand demands dedication. You can't simply jump in the game hoping you'll be able to compete. You actually have to work at it, and any form of dedication will always bring about deep attachment which will be the defining difference between Brawl and Melee.

Let's face it. None of us actually visit these boards because we don't wish to play this game competitively. The entire purpose of SWF was to shepherd like minded, competitive players into a forum where they can matchup and play. Every registered member of SWF has a drive for competition, and eventually that drive will over take them. It will drive people nuts to see regardless of the amount of practice they put in, they are only minutely better than a random button mashing 7th grader who does mall tourneys.

The older generation will go back to playing melee, the competitive scene will stay with melee, but attracting new followers is the hardest part. Hopefully that will be overcome by the systematic pressuring of the community towards what is a better game.

 

[Kal]

I think it should be noted that if anyone wants the competitive Melee community to take Brawl seriously, they need to show us why. It's not our responsibility to show that your game isn't competitive, after all.

 

[Hylian]

I think it should be noted that if anyone wants the competitive Melee community to take Brawl seriously, they need to show us why. It's not our responsibility to show that your game isn't competitive, after all.

That's kind of hard when no one in texas likes brawl except me and Sethlon.

And I agree that melee is better in every way. So I won't argue against still holding Melee tournaments. There will still be pleanty of brawl tournaments for me to go to, and I don't want melee to die.

 

[Galt]

I think I want to clarify what I was saying before. We'll see if I get through the whole post.

When I say the soul is dead, I mean that, more than any other fighter, Smash relies on very dedicated fans to host the tournaments and generate the infrastructure for a competitive scene. Just look at how long it took for MLG/EVO to pick up Smash, and then MLG promptly dropped it. Smash's community exists because it is dedicated to what it sees as the best fighter out there. Now many of those dedicated players are getting older and graduating and getting jobs, so they don't have time for it anymore. And Brawl's takeover has killed others' wills to remain dedicated, because they are willing to travel so much to play a bad game. So the body is still alive, because it's true that the numbers are still technically there--but the serious players aren't in anywhere near the same proportion anymore. They're already starting to move back to Melee. But Melee's scene can't really grow anymore, because Brawl has closed it off like a capstone: it'll still be there, but only for the few players who are willing to dig far enough.

But at the same time, when I say that Brawl is the current future and I think the whole Smash scene doesn't really have long to live, that's not to say that I think the little time remaining should be spent playing Brawl. I think we should enjoy Melee as much as we can, while we can. I'm already a senior in college; I'll graduate and move away, and we all have to stop playing eventually. There may not be that much time, and the competition may not be terribly fresh, but I think that what remains will still be more valuable than Brawl. The only problem is convincing enough others of that to make tournaments viable and worthwhile.

It seems to me that the decision to remain with the older game shouldn't be this dramatic. There's even historical precedent, in the Street Fighter community and others. But no other fighter ever had a hugely mainstream sequel like this which would dominate any attempts at a competitive scene just on pure hype. Smash is different, both as a game and as a community. I don't know how to convince an entire country to ignore the new game. I know that we can do it on a small scale, maybe even at the level of an entire state (since very few serious Texas Smashers like Brawl at all), but I'm not sure that's enough. I just think that sticking with Melee should seem like the *obvious* solution, and I don't really know why it isn't, at least to all of the really good Melee players, aka the guys who are responsible for putting on tournaments. And I think not sticking with Melee is essentially death for the Texas scene, at least.

So unless you guys all want to go play Guilty Gear... why would you switch to a worse game?

 

[The MC Clusky]

I want to play Guilty Gear! >.>

Except like I can count on my hand the number of actually skilled players I've played at the game.

Melee, sadly, will still have many fans, but little chance for growth. There was actually a fresh handful of new players still coming to Final Smash 2, and we all know Melee was getting very close to being done in by Brawl a month later.

However, I believe that perhaps Melee, much like 3rd Strike or MvC 2, has evolved to the point where there isn't much to discover, tiers are fixed, and all avenues explored. But it has held up, for years, to the rigors of competition that it no longer matters. I still enjoy 3rd Strike, despite my low tier character (Elena) and I am not terribly concerned about her status on the tier list. I don't try to mock other players who choose Ken or Chun Li. I have every right to pick those characters as well.

I know some of the people supporting Brawl will mock the players that stuck to the "cheap" choices like Peach who could crouch cancel downsmash or Shiek's chainthrow. Maybe they are happy because the game appears to makes more characters viable, when in fact that is simply because there is no SBR tier list. The game is only appearing fresh and balanced at the moment because everyone is in a rush to find the best character.

There are plenty of things still wrong in Brawl that carried over. Things like DDD's chaingrab infinite, or Fox being able to reflect people into the wall...... with ONE BUTTON no less. This is stuff that was found before the game even came to America. All of these "advanced techniques" are
A: Parlor Tricks
B: Not difficult to perform, requiring almost no practice and
C: Are often just something simple we already did in Melee. Someone was trying to rename triangle jumping last time I looked at the Brawl section.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

i like how brawl was given a full two months or so before it was declared as unsuitable for competitive play. i mean, i've been to melee tournaments, everyone there seemed to be anywhere from 16-22... yet most of you are acting like you're 7.

nobody's telling you you HAVE to play brawl seriously. the problem comes in the fact that you're not even attempting to remedy the "problems" you're seeing, or even letting the game go and just playing melee with your friends. you're actively TRYING to ruin brawl's chances at any sort of future.

if you don't see a future you enjoy, fine. really, it's fine. please stop trying to **** it up for the rest of us.

 

[Kal]

I like Chun Li.

 

[DoH]

ChuDat is holding Melee biweeklies now.

It's starting.

I think if we are able to unite with other parts of the country and expose ourselves we might have a chance at this thing

 

[Xyro77]

Brawl is the future. face it. melee will end up like ssb64

 

[Kal]

The "face it" argument is a classic.

 

[bluezaft]

SSB64 was never competitive. The transition from 64 to Melee is one towards a game with more competitive depth, while Melee => Brawl is the opposite.

Your analogy doesn't work. Face it.

 

[DoH]

the face it argument reminds me of france circa 1940. Hitler's coming...better just face it.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

i still wonder why you feel like it's a FIGHT... just go play melee and leave us alone. it's simple. there's really no need for you to tear down brawl like this. you act like you're starting up a militia... lol. just go play.

 

[Xelic]

i like how brawl was given a full two months or so before it was declared as unsuitable for competitive play. i mean, i've been to melee tournaments, everyone there seemed to be anywhere from 16-22... yet most of you are acting like you're 7.

nobody's telling you you HAVE to play brawl seriously. the problem comes in the fact that you're not even attempting to remedy the "problems" you're seeing, or even letting the game go and just playing melee with your friends. you're actively TRYING to ruin brawl's chances at any sort of future.

if you don't see a future you enjoy, fine. really, it's fine. please stop trying to **** it up for the rest of us.

VHG, we would leave Brawl alone if it was a different franchise with no bearing on the competitive Melee scene, but that is not the case.

In my opinion, Brawl is lucky to make it to two months. I find it utterly ridiculous that people gave it a chance in the first place. I think it boils down to people having blind hope for the game, because I could tell it wasn't competitive after playing it for an hour. Ask the owners of the D-Pad; they invited me to play an imported copy of the Brawl the day after it came out in Japan, and it was only a couple of hours before I was playing Melee with them.

There is no place here for you to tell people they are acting like "7-year-olds." We are talking about why Melee is a superior tournament game, and how there should be more organized effort to host Melee tournaments rather than Brawl tournaments. We certainly don't need people to come and say things like, "Most of you act like you're 7 etc. etc." This is a discussion, not a playground argument.

About not even trying to remedy the "problems" in Brawl...well, that's just ridiculous. Everyone up until now has been doing everything in their power to find new tactics and techniques in Brawl that would allow it to be competitive. The thing is that Brawl's problems are design-based, and can't really be fixed.

Also, one might say that Brawl ****ed it up for the rest of us.

 

[Hylian]

There has not been any big brawl tournaments in texas yet. It's not like we can't still host melee tournaments. But there is no reason to completely shun brawl tournaments. They will still be there. You don't have to go to them though.

Also, we can still host melee tournaments. And with brawl/melee tournaments we can show all the new brawl players how great melee is . Note: Harassing them is not the way to do that. Neither is telling them that melee is better. That just starts stupid arguments. Rather, lets just show them how much fun we have, and how much we enjoy the game .

 

[Xelic]

I'm definitely not against holding Brawl tournaments as a side event, but the proof of Brawl's detrimental effects is in the numbers. Just look at the number of entrees in Brawl and Melee tournaments when both games are present at an event. I'm hoping that we can, as a community, make the move back to Melee and overcome the wave of Brawl hype that is currently affecting tournament attendance.

 

[G@BE]

and your in the wrong room for that Allan... leave and go run your brawl tournaments..


Jordan! IM me!

 

[Gravity]

wow, this is a good thread, except its april first and either everyone is in on it or theres a word filter. . .

that threw me for like 5 minutes. . .

anyway, if you are starting a militia, im on the SSBM side.

 

[Hylian]

HOLY ****! I am on my Wii, and the words Melee and Brawl are mixed up on this page for me. So creepy!!!

Edit: BEST APRIL FOOLS JOKE EVER!


Guys, type out smas h and a bunch of ssbb characters. Its amazing!. lawl.

 

[Kal]

I hate April Fools. It brings out the worst in people. =/

 

[G@BE]

The only reason i did not like the switch from melee to brawl... was the big thing about.. you work all those years to get your melee skills and then just jump to another game... Its a waste of talent. :/

 

[Wobbles]

I'm curious as to what people think it is about Brawl that makes it worse as a competitive game than Melee.

I'm having little to no trouble translating my practiced skills from Melee over, I consistently beat other people (items on or off) and I haven't seen any tactics that are rendering the game unplayable. The AZ metagame, in fact, is quickly upping itself as players respond to rapid changes in the styles around them. Maybe I'm just one of the hopefuls, but I'm not actually seeing any pro-Melee arguments that aren't also "Brawl just isn't as competitive." I still don't know what you guys think makes it less worth playing. An enumerated list would be nice.

I'll agree that tripping is one of the worst gameplay mechanics ever introduced into a video game ever; fortunately, I don't really have trouble with it since I play a lot of Wario and Metaknight, which means I spend more time jumping than running.

 

[Hylian]

Small list:
Not enough hitstun.
Airdodge OP.
Reward for getting a successful approach = not much.
Everything is easy
Movement is limited

Off the top of my head. Those are most peoples complaints.

 

[Wobbles]

Well, that's a good start I suppose. I'll address how I feel about most of those.

Hitstun: Personally, I was hugely annoyed with this as well, until I realized that the reason it was bothering me was that I was simply too used to Melee's combo system. I would always try to follow up with hits that simply couldn't happen and I would be hit out of them, and it would irritate me greatly. Once I started baiting responses, I started stringing together longer "combos" and felt rewarded.

Remember how we used to talk about Melee's combo system being "deep" because of DI and the absence of dial-a-combos? This adds another layer of depth to it. You can feint a follow up attack and goad a response which you punish instead; you can wait for airdodges and punish; once you've created the illusion that you will wait for those, you can start going for the original "combo" and land them again. I've been doing this lately and it's giving me massive returns compared to other opponents.

Airdodging: Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. No arguments there. Still punishable, but almost always a smart and safe option.

Low returns on successful approaches: Like I said, once I started adapting to the new defensive system and predicting my opponent's responses to being hit, I began landing 40-50 percent combos.

Everything is easy: I don't see a low technical threshold as being a legitimate complaint against something's competitiveness. I've always felt that being rewarded for my decision making and prediction should be prioritized over being rewarded for unnecessary difficulty in execution. Truthfully, the concept of L-canceling was always something I disliked about Melee; it added a layer of difficulty without adding real depth. This is a personal opinion, so I will happily concede the point if you just don't agree.

Movement is limited: I don't know about this one; it was kind of weird as well, but I just focus on staying in the air where I have the most control. Like I mentioned in my last post, this also reduces the risk of tripping. I can't wavedash, which kind of sucks; instead, I use walks and empty short hops to more precisely control my location.

 

[The MC Clusky]

I don't understand why my tournament thread was attacked today. I seriously thought I was going crazy since I couldn't edit it.

Let me test it.

Final Smash

EDIT: Apparently I'm just a victim of word choice.

 

[Galt]

I need to know what these 40-50% combos you're pulling off in Brawl are, Wobbles, and against whom. People say it just takes time to adapt to the new engine and combos reappear, but I've been playing Brawl since it was out in Japan, and I just don't see that as being possible against someone who knows how to DI, airdodge, hit you back, and/or jump out. I also have trouble believing that you seriously need people to explain what's worse about the game's physics. It's obvious.

But I think that the bottom line for most of us here isn't really a matter of how competitive the game could be, but more a matter of the game just isn't fun to play at all. I play Luigi, who can still kind of combo and do things, but he's the *only* character I can stand to play for more than a match at a time.

 

[Hylian]

I need to know what these 40-50% combos you're pulling off in Brawl are, Wobbles, and against whom. People say it just takes time to adapt to the new engine and combos reappear, but I've been playing Brawl since it was out in Japan, and I just don't see that as being possible against someone who knows how to DI, airdodge, hit you back, and/or jump out. I also have trouble believing that you seriously need people to explain what's worse about the game's physics. It's obvious.

But I think that the bottom line for most of us here isn't really a matter of how competitive the game could be, but more a matter of the game just isn't fun to play at all. I play Luigi, who can still kind of combo and do things, but he's the *only* character I can stand to play for more than a match at a time.

Certain characters can combo better. For example, Samus has VERY long combo strings that usually end up being over 50%. Also, these are impossible to get out of. G&W also has some pretty damagings strings.

 

[Galt]

I want to know what those strings are. It doesn't help to be told that certain characters have them, when I have no further reason to believe that. And certainly, I think if we're going to assert that Brawl has some kind of combo potential, it had better have strings for more than two characters.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm curious as to what people think it is about Brawl that makes it worse as a competitive game than Melee.

I'm having little to no trouble translating my practiced skills from Melee over, I consistently beat other people (items on or off) and I haven't seen any tactics that are rendering the game unplayable. The AZ metagame, in fact, is quickly upping itself as players respond to rapid changes in the styles around them. Maybe I'm just one of the hopefuls, but I'm not actually seeing any pro-Melee arguments that aren't also "Brawl just isn't as competitive." I still don't know what you guys think makes it less worth playing. An enumerated list would be nice.

I'll agree that tripping is one of the worst gameplay mechanics ever introduced into a video game ever; fortunately, I don't really have trouble with it since I play a lot of Wario and Metaknight, which means I spend more time jumping than running.

I'm in complete agreement with Wobbles here. It's as if he read my mind, so it's kinda creepy.

I am playing Brawl much of my days now, so if I go back to Melee, I'm sure to have massively dropped in skill.

Wobbles we need to play Brawl sometime. I don't get too much practice around here. Most I get is FFAs with friends, 1 v 1 with Lv 9 CPUs, and subspace enemies, if they even count..

 

[Xelic]

I think L-cancel adds depth, not just difficulty. It allows the separation of competitive and casual players. To me, it's a mechanic that allows you to add a new dimension to Melee, to take the gameplay to the next level. L-cancel is really what allows for most or the combos we do, and it completely changes how we play the game. I can't view that as anything but adding depth.

 

[Wobbles]

Xelic: the problem I find with your assertion is that it doesn't really make the gameplay more interesting or layered; just harder. Eventually it reaches the point where everybody you meet in tournament L-cancels and there is no divide. If no L-canceling existed and the moves just had low amounts of lag like you see in other fighters, then we'd still have the combos without the pointless technical barrier.

I believe the separation between a competitive and casual player should come from your ability to read situations and opponents.

Galt: Like I said; I'm not landing actual "combos," but instead predicting my opponent's response to being hit and following up based on that. If I believe you will air dodge to avoid my next attack, then I will delay that attack. If I think you will attack me, I will re-position myself for a shield grab or a move that will outprioritize yours. If I think you will jump, I do my best to target the areas above you, or control the parts beneath you that give me a positional advantage.

And again, the strings are not locked in place; they arise from predicting the enemy's response as I move in to attack. Samus has f-air, u-air and canceled air-grapples to create her combos. I use Wario so with my air control I will land an aerial, air dodge through the opponent's retaliatory strike onto the ground to cancel it, then follow with another hit. Or I'll go with Meta-Knight, landing aerials and following up into careful range where I can pressure dodges and shields with tilts and grabs.

Here is how combo'ing has to work in Brawl: You land a hit and force the opponent into a disadvantageous position. He will have to choose some response to avoid your next action--if you can accurately guess what response that will be, you can make sure his response is the wrong one.

Also: it's not obvious to me what is wrong with Brawl, Galt. Explain it carefully to me so that I can understand what you don't like. And... well, yes it must be about the competitiveness of Brawl, since you said that Brawl has no competitive future. You didn't say anything about "fun." According to Xelic, he knew it wasn't "competitive" after "1 hour" of play.

I want to know what makes this game so unplayable at the competitive level. Somebody explain it to me, because I'm clearly too stupid to see what is so "obvious" to everybody else.