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It's sayings like that that make me realize just how self-entitled and spoiled the Smash fanbase can be, no offense. Clones are not evil, and plenty of fighting series have them. They don't "steal someone else's spot"; if someone doesn't have the spot, unless they were scrapped during development they just weren't meant to have that spot. For example, it's not Dr. Mario's fault Wario wasn't in Melee, nor Wolf's (even if he isn't much of a clone to begin with) fault we didn't get Krystal in Brawl.
Now, I'm not advocating for a whole bunch of clones to be in the game, but a few that make sense as clones would honestly not hurt anything.
I actually agree with you that clones are not some horrible scourge on the Smash games, when they actually bring something interesting to the table. Clones like Toon Link, Roy, Ganondorf, Falco, and even Pichu take an existing moveset and put a unique spin on it. Things like making the character faster, or stronger, or something else that makes them stand apart form the character they were cloned from.
Doc simply doesn't do that. His moves are all almost just like Mario, and there isn't much that makes him an interesting character that couldn't just be incorporatedinto Mario, like how Project M does.
And no, the notion of Mario just putting on his doc outfit but using his regular powers isn't odd or unusual at all to me.
Not to mention Dr. Mario IS Mario, where as the other "clones" are their own characters. (Except Young Link) I don't really see the issue of having the Doc as an alternative costume for Mario, and if customizable movesets were present it would work even better.
Not to mention Dr. Mario IS Mario, where as the other "clones" are their own characters. (Except Young Link) I don't really see the issue of having the Doc as an alternative costume for Mario, and if customizable movesets were present it would work even better.
Different moves or not, they are still the same character in two seperate character slots. Toon Link is different enough to be his own character, because he's not related to Ocarina of Time Link at all. And he has several items in Wind Waker he can use as a moveset rather than just being a floaty version of Link.
Different moves or not, they are still the same character in two seperate character slots. Toon Link is different enough to be his own character, because he's not related to Ocarina of Time Link at all. And he has several items in Wind Waker he can use as a moveset rather than just being a floaty version of Link.
But I like him that way. If they copied his moving Spin attack from P:M and let him switch between normal, fire, and maybe ice arrowhaeds, he would be great.
And for the record, Wind Waker is my favorite 3D Zelda.
The problem with that, as it screws over people that prefer Mario's playstyle over Dr. Mario's.
And as a Dr. Mario main, I can't believe how little you understand; if Mario and Dr. Mario were practically the same, they would be the same on the Tier List, now, wouldn't they?
Simply put, you cannot effectively use the same strategies as Mario as you could Dr. Mario. They may be similar, but they operate much differently.
Dr. Mario is slower in attack speed, but makes up for it in attack strength. Doc also has faster air speed.
Also, in the PAL version, Dr. Mario is actually heavier than Mario (while Mario, Luigi, and Dr. Mario share the same weight in other regions, Mario is slightly lighter than the other two in PAL).
Now, you say his moves are just like Mario's?
Here's a list of differences:
-Doc's Down Tilt sends foes behind him, while Mario's pops them into the air.
-Aside from the swap from fire to electricty, the Forward Smash has a sweetspot closer to Doc's body, compared to Mario's having a sweetspot farther away from him.
-Doc's Neutral Air gets stronger the longer he has his leg out, Mario's gets weaker.
-Mario's Forward Air is a Meteor. Doc's isn't and is arguably more reliable.
-Doc's Dash Attack has slightly more range and launches foes in a random trajectory, while Mario's knocks them diagonally behind him.
-Doc's Up Tilt has slightly more knockback and has a different trajectory depending on where he hits.
-Doc's Up Smash is faster but weaker than Mario's.
-Megavitamins have more hitstun, do more damage, and have a considerably different trajectory to Mario's Fireballs.
-Super Sheet does more damage and has a longer reach than Mario's Cape. It also has more lag and can only give a vertical boost once, making it practically useless as a recovery option unlike the Cape.
-Dr. Tornado does more knockback and damage than Mario Tornado, and it also scatters opponents in random directions. It takes faster taps of the B button for full strength and height distance, however, and it is easier for opponents to use to Directional Influence to escape from.
-Super Jump Punch is stronger but hits less times.
I'd list other differences, but I think that should suffice.
Bro, i'm aware of their gameplay physics differences. But my point is, they are the same person, just in two seperate character slots. It's like putting in Luigi and Mr. L as seperate characters, it just takes space on the roster. Does this mean i don't want Dr. Mario back? Of course not, i prefer using Doc over regular Mario. I just don't see the harm in having him as an alt. outfit and moveset option for Mario. Option
Not to mention Dr. Mario IS Mario, where as the other "clones" are their own characters. (Except Young Link) I don't really see the issue of having the Doc as an alternative costume for Mario, and if customizable movesets were present it would work even better.
Because, the point you fail to grasp is that people don't play as Dr. Mario just to play as "LOL MARIO IN A LAB COAT HURR". It's because of his style of gameplay that is quite different from regular Mario.
And really, there is no rule that a character can't have two slots to himself. I mean, should the people that want Paper Mario stop wanting him because he's Mario in a different slot? Or does it "not count" since Paper Mario "can" be unique? In which case that's arbitrary and foolish.
I never said that the two were exactly the same. I acknowledged the fact that the properties of the moves of the two are completely different, but I still don't see much that couldn't just be incorporated into Mario.
The only way I see Doc coming back is if Sakurai decides he wants to bring back Mario's N64 normals, or if Mario keeps FLUDD, or as an alt for Mario.
And really, there is no rule that a character can't have two slots to himself. I mean, should the people that want Paper Mario stop wanting him because he's Mario in a different slot? Or does it "not count" since Paper Mario "can" be unique? In which case that's arbitrary and foolish.
Bro, i'm aware of their gameplay physics differences. But my point is, they are the same person, just in two seperate character slots. It's like putting in Luigi and Mr. L as seperate characters, it just takes space on the roster. Does this mean i don't want Dr. Mario back? Of course not, i prefer using Doc over regular Mario. I just don't see the harm in having him as an alt. outfit and moveset option for Mario. Option
If you mean make Dr. Mario an alternate selection similar to the Gohans in DBZ Budokai, then that's something I can agree with. But making Doc a simple costume in the same vein as Overalls Wario would break what playing as Doc was all about.
If you mean make Dr. Mario an alternate selection similar to the Gohans in DBZ Budokai, then that's something I can agree with. But making Doc a simple costume in the same vein as Overalls Wario would break what playing as Doc was all about.
An EX mode system would actually be cool, as it would allow for some characters to get new movesets while keeping their old ones. Clone characters(like Ganondorf and Toonie) could get less "clone-y" movesets while keeping their old ones. Sadly, I don't think Sakurai would implement something like that.
Because, the point you fail to grasp is that people don't play as Dr. Mario just to play as "LOL MARIO IN A LAB COAT HURR". It's because of his style of gameplay that is quite different from regular Mario.
And really, there is no rule that a character can't have two slots to himself. I mean, should the people that want Paper Mario stop wanting him because he's Mario in a different slot? Or does it "not count" since Paper Mario "can" be unique? In which case that's arbitrary and foolish.
Because Paper Mario has a whole variety of gear and items he has a bigger opportunity to become less of a clone than Dr. Mario, but anyway if i'd want Paper Mario i'd make him an alt. moveset for Mario as well.
If you mean make Dr. Mario an alternate selection similar to the Gohans in DBZ Budokai, then that's something I can agree with. But making Doc a simple costume in the same vein as Overalls Wario would break what playing as Doc was all about.
Even if Dr. Mario does return and has his own moveset, i doubt he's going to be on par with his Melee counterpart. Knowing Sakurai he'll change the gameplay physics for SSB4 and try more innovations. He just stated all veteran characters are getting new attacks in this installment.
I never said that the two were exactly the same. I acknowledged the fact that the properties of the moves of the two are completely different, but I still don't see much that couldn't just be incorporated into Mario.
The only way I see Doc coming back is if Sakurai decides he wants to bring back Mario's N64 normals, or if Mario keeps FLUDD, or as an alt for Mario.
The difference is that Paper Mario would represent a long sub-series of game and has more potential for unique moves.
Because, as I previously said, it'd be screwing over those who prefer Mario's playstyle to Doc's.
And pretty much, with Dr. Mario being planned for Brawl, I can see him coming in whether he gets some changes or not.
And that reasoning for Paper Mario is arbitrary and foolish.
Dr. Mario has had multiple titles as well, and prior to Sticker Star, he had more than Paper Mario. Dr. Mario (NES and GBC are counted together, although it has also been ported and remade many times), Dr. Mario 64, Dr. Mario Online RX, and Dr. Mario Express.
And who says Dr. Mario can't be unique? I mean, he is a doctor, right? He could easily be Falcon'd by being given stereotypical doctor-esque moves like comical injections with giant needles, freezing cold stethoscope attacks, a defibulator, and other wierd crap like that. Also, he has the Viruses to work with. And if they wanted to, they could make Dr. Mario the "Nintendo Puzzle Collection" character and borrow some skills and references to Panel de Pon and Yoshi's Cookie.
Conversely, it's just as easy to picture Paper Mario as a light Mario semi-clone. Especially now that he can shoot fireballs.
Because Paper Mario has a whole variety of gear and items he has a bigger opportunity to become less of a clone than Dr. Mario, but anyway if i'd want Paper Mario i'd make him an alt. moveset for Mario as well.
Bigger opportunity means nothing; need I remind you of Captain Ganon?
Also, previous post.
Even if Dr. Mario does return and has his own moveset, i doubt he's going to be on par with his Melee counterpart. Knowing Sakurai he'll change the gameplay physics for SSB4 and try more innovations. He just stated all veteran characters are getting new attacks in this installment.
No he didn't. -_- That is a common misinterpretation that is being spread around like a virus (no pun intended).
What he had said is that he enjoys making new skills for new characters. He said nothing about veteran characters.
In all seriousness, if he were to return, either as a character or an alternate mode for Mario, then he should retain his old moves. We seem to be debating whether or not he should be brought back as a character or a costume.
It's not a debate. If he does come back, he's going to be a seperate character. Sakurai has already spat on the costume idea back before Doc's addition to Melee.
It wouldn't make a lick of difference anyway whether or not he has a slot on the CSS, as time and resources would still be going to be given to Dr. Mario, so the only question is that are people really that self-entitled that they dare not see a 2nd version of a character on the CSS or not.
And if he gets in, it's not at someone's expense, since, as I've already stated, if that character (be it Toad, Geno, Bowser Jr., Waluigi, Daisy, whatever) doesn't get in, it will be because Sakurai didn't want them in, not because of Dr. Mario.
Which means, all this is a question of is whether or not there should be an extra slot to select or not on the CSS.
I totally think the Doc should come back. Mario would retain F.L.U.D.D, and Doc would have the tornado. I also think he could have a different final smash, controlling pills that fall on the screen. If they hit another player, it sends them flying in another direction. If they get to the top of the screen, the final smash ends. Then again, that all depends on how good the player is with puzzle games, and it could end up being long and cheap. Also, I agree with GoldenYuii. In addition to the pills, mind you.
Looking back at it, Dr. Mario could really become a "Nintendo Puzzle Collection" fighter.
I mean, his sticker line is not with the Mario line, but in it's own line (Nintendo Puzzle Collection). Also in this line are stickers from Panel de Pon.
And not only that, but the Chill theme from Brawl is not labeled in the same file category as other Mario songs (including the Mario Golf/Tennis song), but under the Retro file category.
Dr. Mario has been released in a 2-in-1 pack with Tetris for the NES that featured the two games together, and a "Mixed Match" mode where you alternate between the two games in 3 against another player.
Dr. Mario had also been released in a 2-in-1 pack with Puzzle League (English version of Panel de Pon).
And lastly, the Nintendo Puzzle Collection, which featured 3 games: Dr. Mario 64, Panel de Pon, and Yoshi's Cookie.
So, theoretically, his moveset could be changed to reference Puzzle League/Panel de Pon, Tetris, and Yoshi's Cookie as well as his own games to become the ultimate puzzle rep.
Golden, you're a genius! Actually, when you think about it, then he'd be repping two things at once (Mario and NPC)! Maybe this could relate in some way to his final smash?
Thanks!
But now that I think about it, maybe Tetris wouldn't be put in his moveset, given that Nintendo doesn't really own the series and had to get permission to use the two songs.
That, and Tetris wasn't part of the "Nintendo Puzzle Collection" .
I found more ammunition in regards to Dr. Mario in Brawl.
...well, it's not that much, but apparently, there are many Melee trophy previews in Brawl's data of various Melee characters.
Here's what there are:
Donkey Kong's Classic and Adventure Trophies
Link's Adventure Trophy
Kirby's Adventure
Luigi's Classic Trophy
Captain Falcon's Classic Trophy
Bowser's Classic Trophy
Ice Climbers' All-Star Trophy
Marth's Adventure Trophy Mewtwo's Classic and Adventure Trophies
Falco's Classic Trophy
Ganondorf's Adventure Trophy Dr. Mario's Classic and Adventure Trophies
I found more ammunition in regards to Dr. Mario in Brawl.
...well, it's not that much, but apparently, there are many Melee trophy previews in Brawl's data of various Melee characters.
Here's what there are:
Donkey Kong's Classic and Adventure Trophies
Link's Adventure Trophy
Kirby's Adventure
Luigi's Classic Trophy
Captain Falcon's Classic Trophy
Bowser's Classic Trophy
Ice Climbers' All-Star Trophy
Marth's Adventure Trophy Mewtwo's Classic and Adventure Trophies
Falco's Classic Trophy
Ganondorf's Adventure Trophy Dr. Mario's Classic and Adventure Trophies
I don't think that these trophies add anything to his chances in SSB4. We already know he was planned for Brawl, so a beta trophy wouldn't be so surprising.
It's also possible those graphics are just leftovers from Melee.
I never said they affected anything for SSB4, just that it's more ammunition that he was taken seriously for Brawl, which people like to say otherwise.
Afterall, you don't see any Young Link or Pichu leftover Trophies, do you?
ANYWAYS, I think I have my "Nintendo Puzzle Collection" Dr. Mario Specials list ready:
B: Megavitamin-Same as Melee, though with added bonus I will explain in the Side B.
Side B: Virus Infection-Dr. Mario shakes a flask that flings a tiny colored virus (Fever, Chill, or Wierd). If it makes contact with someone, it does a tiny bit of damage and makes them flash either red (if Fever hits), blue (if Chill hits), or yellow (if Wierd hits) for a limited time.
During this time, Megavitamins that hit them that have the same color as the color they are flashing will be stronger.
For example:
If someone is hit with Fever, Megavitamins that are not red will act as they do before. Ones that have one red side will do twice as much damage. Ones that are fully red with do four times the amount.
Same thing with Chill, but with blue, and Wierd, but with yellow.
Up B: Cookie Shift-A row of cookies from Yoshi's Cookie will appear above Dr. Mario, and he will rise up through the row with his arms folded as the cookies shift. When he reaches the top, he can go left or right with a new batch of cookies, but he will start in the middle, which gives him less movement.
Visual example:
1st Shift
1st Cookie
2nd Cookie
3rd Cookie
4th Cookie
Dr. Mario
2nd Cookie
3rd Cookie
4th Cookie
Dr. Mario
1st Cookie
3rd Cookie
4th Cookie
Dr. Mario
1st Cookie
2nd Cookie
4th Cookie
Dr. Mario
1st Cookie
2nd Cookie
3rd Cookie
Dr. Mario
1st Cookie
2nd Cookie
3rd Cookie
4th Cookie
2nd Shift IF RIGHT-
1st Cookie 2nd Cookie Dr. Mario 3rd Cookie 4th Cookie
4th Cookie 1st Cookie 2nd Cookie Dr. Mario 3rd Cookie
3rd Cookie 4th Cookie 1st Cookie 2nd Cookie Dr. Mario
2nd Shift IF LEFT
1st Cookie 2nd Cookie Dr. Mario 3rd Cookie 4th Cookie
2nd Cookie Dr. Mario 3rd Cookie 4th Cookie 1st Cookie
Dr. Mario 3rd Cookie 4th Cookie 1st Cookie 2nd Cookie
To coincide with this being Dr. Mario, the cookies are Dr. Mario themed rather than Yoshi themed.
Down B: Garbage Block-Dr. Mario will point diagonally above him with his pointer and causes a special Dr. Mario themed Garbage Block (like the blocks in Panel de Pon/Puzzle League) to crash down in front of him. Once they hit the ground, they act as platforms for a bit and can even be stacked on top of each other. Holding the B Button charges the attack and makes the blocks larger.
Final Smash: Virus Buster-Like in the enonymous game title, 3 giant Megavitamins of random colors will appear in the sky. Dr. Mario uses a mystical energy from his pointer (to reference using the Wii Remote to move the pills around) to grab onto these Megavitamins and move them freely. While grabbing on to one, pressing the B button will rotate them by 90 degrees. They will automatically fall on their own, but Dr. Mario must move them in order to truly be effective against his opponents. Once they hit the ground on their own, they cannot be moved until the rest touch the ground, which is when the Final Smash ends. They do less harm to opponents while being moved by Dr. Mario than if they touch them on their own. After a while, the Final Smash will end even if they have not all touched the ground.
These Megavitamins do not get the Virus Infection bonus like the normal ones do.
Pills should not be buffed... Hate those things.
And do you really want to remove doc's cape? That is like... The reason he ***** space animals in melee, lol.
Pills should not be buffed... Hate those things.
And do you really want to remove doc's cape? That is like... The reason he ***** space animals in melee, lol.
