Don't use Ness (or Lucas) in tournaments

[DarkBlue]

Was wobbling banned in the major tourneys? If yes, then my point is invalid. Im fairly sure it wasn't though. I mean, it was banned in some circles, but not all. Tourney host makes the rules, I guess.

Anyway, what does marth have to do to regrab ness while staying in one spot?

I was in training mode a minute ago hammering X (Grab) with marth and I could DI out of his standing grab range at around 50 percent, also I managed to jump break fairly often by rotating the analogue from up (tap jump) to the opposite direction and back. Maybe I was too slow mashing grab attack..?

I also tried what Gum suggested, the "counter-grab," but no dice. Either marth or ness got grabbed each time.

 

[Earthbound360]

^^^
Marth can just move towards Ness and regrab him after 50%

Wobbling was banned from some tournies I think. Idk, in Melee, I ignored tournies since Ness was bottom tier and took a more technical look on Ness.

If done right, you cannot jump escape the CG. Its not hard to perfect either, all you have to do is press the grab button really fast.

 

[PKSkyler]

dude its so lame I lost a tourny cause of some dedede *** chain grabbing me.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Your job is done now Cort. Thank you but... We can handle this on our own.
Hey EB, can I count on you for that petition?

 

[memphischains]

Your job is done now Cort. Thank you but... We can handle this on our own.

what the hell are you talking about

 

[DarkBlue]

If marth is moving forward, he'll reach the edge of the stage eventually. .:. it isn't an infinite.
I need to find a competant partner to try this with <_<

 

[Earthbound360]

Probably Smashbros. Probably.

Also, Darkblue, true, Marth does move forward, but its like 1 foot length, meaning if you are grabbed from the end of FD, thats about 100% tacked onto you for such an easy move to land.

A question for people to ponder. Is it fair for Ness to all of a sudden become countered by characters he once counterED in a day of discovery? Ness was great on Sonic, Bowser, and DK, but now... now all of those strategies we devised and matches we thought we would always own is ended due to a grab! Is that fair?

 

[Proverbs]

No. I think a ban is definitely possible here.


Edit: By the way, someone on GameFAQs made a list of infinite/noninfinite grabs and the worst that people can do to you after the grab. Should I post it here or do you guys already have this? [It was posted by Sony_7 on Longhorn's Final Tier List topic]

 

[Earthbound360]

Yes please. I know them both, but I dont feel like weeding through Longhorn's gigantic topic to find his post.

 

[DarkBlue]

He copy pasted Nessbounders list, it is nothing new.

Fed up of trying this on myself in training mode. My GF couldnt press the buttons fast enough, I can't perform a dash grab while experimenting as Ness on another controller and wifi is too laggy for accurate results.

Can't wait for the game to come out in Europe <.<

Guess I'll give it another go later..

Edit- Im not against a ban in any way. I just think it is unlikely and irrational seeing as we don't know everything there is to know about this just yet.

 

[munkus beaver]

Your job is done now Cort. Thank you but... We can handle this on our own.

ahahahahahahahahahahahaha


AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[munkus beaver]

You guys are really, really getting your panties in a knot over what? 5 characters that can do it indefinitely?

 

[Conda]

Read the thread.

 

[Proverbs]

I won't bother posting his list if it's the same as NessBounder's. But if you want to double check it anyway, it's on page 29, so just one before the last (as of right now).

 

[Earthbound360]

Read the thread.

pwned lol..

 

[munkus beaver]

Read the thread.

I can read, can you?

Very few can infinite, a couple can grab you and then use an attack out of the grab. You guys are acting like the sky is falling.

 

[munkus beaver]

Hell, I would much rather slap, down-throw, then tech chase than do this silly 'chaingrab' across the stage. More damage racked up faster.

 

[ViceGrip]

hey, this is not the end all of ness i do not believe. i was in a tourney and fought dsf and mike haze and neither of them when they actually managed to grab me w/ their marths did more than 20% dmg b4 i got out, no joke. and since they were overly eagar to get a grab in it really did throw off their game a little bit because they would try and grab at not the most ideal times and thus be punished 4 it. Don't freak out yet ness mains ( that means you Earthbound 360, lol) try out your ness's in tourneys w/ the knowledge of the **** grab and just see how you do. If ANYTHING, it'll force us to be WAY more grab minded, which in turn will make us better. Cause comon, in brawl its not that big of a deal when you get grabbed (excluding certain icy androgynous eskimos) becuase what, you take like 15% dmg at max, so we're not as good at avoiding grabs as we will be soon knowing about this new deadly grab mechanic. I'm going to a big U.C.L.A. monthly in 2 weeks, i'll let you know how it goes, since i assume word of this lameness will travel fast lol. also please don't discount the fact that we can still discover a way out of it. more testing must be done.

 

[goodoldganon]

I can read, can you?

Very few can infinite, a couple can grab you and then use an attack out of the grab. You guys are acting like the sky is falling.

I see 9 characters Ness/Lucas have virtually no chance against.
I see 7 characters that they have an unsafe or risky change against.
Plus there is the Ice Climbers

That is 17 characters on a 35 character roster that can basically shut down the Mother boys. A lot of those characters are some of the games most popular characters too. Almost half the roster.

Even after all that, most of the characters still get a free attack out of it. If that doesn't make a character nearly unplayable I don't know what does.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Bowser, Dk, and Dedede users don't ask us to ban PK Fire, so I guess it's only fair that we allow being chaingrabbed by Marth. Even though grabbing is 100 times easier to do...

PK Fire is hardly a chain combo. Even big characters like these can just hold down and shield to escape within the first few burns. Or even jump.

 

[RoxburyGuy58]

Yeah, he's right. The chain-grab thing is a problem. If you're not off of the edge, just pull out a quick PK Thunder and use it to chase down the pursuer. He will block or get hit, giving you enough time to land safely. This works for me all the time.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

By the way, DI doesn't do jack. At the most, it moves you barely a step to the right or left, and most characters can still reach you with a running grab.

At most though, you can always still use Ness or Lucas as counterpicks against safe characters in tourneys...just not as mains.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Yeah, he's right. The chain-grab thing is a problem. If you're not off of the edge, just pull out a quick PK Thunder and use it to chase down the pursuer. He will block or get hit, giving you enough time to land safely. This works for me all the time.

What are you talking about? There's no time to use PK thunder when you're being chained this way. There's barely enough time to put up a shield!

 

[ViceGrip]

roxbury doesn't fully get the concept. If there was a video link i'd put it here.

 

[thesage]

Well, can we camp the ledge with pkt? Would that help at all?

 

[S_B]

I tested this with Bowser and, although I don't know if he can get a 2nd grab in, he can definitely follow it with a f or dtilt and those can be killing moves and the level 9 CPU could never avoid it.

 

[Proverbs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NESSBOUNDER
By the way, I thought I'd add that the timing to get a perfect running grab for most of the characters who can chain throw this way is actually VERY strict. If you press Z even just a fraction of a second too late after starting the dash, you'll give Ness or Lucas a chance to spot dodge. NO ROLLING. Spot dodge is the fastest form of evasion available for them in this situation.

I'd like to point this out. Unless I'm misconstruing some part of this, he just said that the people who can/need to use a running grab to continue this combo need extremely good timing, right? Meaning that unless you're playing against the top, you'll have a chance to break free, right?

This means that out of a total of 17 characters that can do this, 9 are hopeless and 8 are unsafe/risky. Out of the latter category, 5 need strict timing to continue the combo. So 5/17, nearly a third provide situations with some hope even if you're caught. That means, not counting the matches you wouldn't get into no matter what (the 'death matches', shall we call them), 5/8 characters, over half, need extremely good timing. So only 3 are a threat to really be worried about, besides the ones that are instant death.


Does this put our situation in a better light or what?

By the way: The quote is taken from the death-grab list and that is where I made the original post.

 

[Earthbound360]

THe timing isnt very strict at all. Its very easy to do, which is why this should be banned

 

[Proverbs]

I'm just quoting NessBounder there--that you have to take up with him.

 

[Conda]

Better testng needs to be done before we present this data to people.

 

[Earthbound360]

Okay, I didnt mean not strict really, but not hard. He also posted in the other thread that the buffering system in Brawl doesnt make this too hard.

Again, life sucks

 

[EdreesesPieces]

This sucks.

Man I feel bad. But we better believe, Cort was the one who proved to me that Peach sucked in Brawl (and he was good in Melee) **** you Sakurai!

So I'm curious, how did Cort prove that Peach sucks in Brawl?

I challenge anybody to prove to me this works by doing it for 3 straight minutes on an 'evade" computer in training mode. GAURANTEEED that comptuer will escape 3-4 times. That means the physics ALLOW for escape. It's just hard. but no doubt if you practice in training mode with a friend you can LEARN the timing , DI necessary, etc. It's REALLY hard but if the computer can escape SO CAN YOU.

 

[Trapt497]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NESSBOUNDER
By the way, I thought I'd add that the timing to get a perfect running grab for most of the characters who can chain throw this way is actually VERY strict. If you press Z even just a fraction of a second too late after starting the dash, you'll give Ness or Lucas a chance to spot dodge. NO ROLLING. Spot dodge is the fastest form of evasion available for them in this situation.

I'd like to point this out. Unless I'm misconstruing some part of this, he just said that the people who can/need to use a running grab to continue this combo need extremely good timing, right? Meaning that unless you're playing against the top, you'll have a chance to break free, right?

This means that out of a total of 17 characters that can do this, 9 are hopeless and 8 are unsafe/risky. Out of the latter category, 5 need strict timing to continue the combo. So 5/17, nearly a third provide situations with some hope even if you're caught. That means, not counting the matches you wouldn't get into no matter what (the 'death matches', shall we call them), 5/8 characters, over half, need extremely good timing. So only 3 are a threat to really be worried about, besides the ones that are instant death.


Does this put our situation in a better light or what?

By the way: The quote is taken from the death-grab list and that is where I made the original post.

hmm this is a bit of a stretch neglecting 14 out of the 17 that can take advantage of Ness/ Lucas. But it does have an optimistic look on this issue and Im thankful for that because few of these posts are like that here. Thanks Proverbs.

Cort, can you come up with any ways to avoid this from happening, keep someone from grabbing, or get out of the infinite? Yes I have read the thread. But I love using Ness and I want to know if the starter of this thread has come up with any ideas of the sort recently. WHAT CAN WE COME UP WITH SO NESS ISNT FREAKIN USELESS?

 

[Proverbs]

^It's 12/17, not 14/17 that can take advantage of it if we are to take the harder timing of the dash-grabs as an advantage. 3 of the 8 are concerning, 5 have to do dashgrabs which is less, out of the non-lethal setups.

 

[Trapt497]

Ok but it is still a stretch. Again. Can we please stop discussing about how useless Ness is now and try to come up with a solution to this? Dont tell me no solution exists. I have already seen the millions of those posts on this thread. Just brainstorm, if that isnt asking too much.

Edresses, that is interesting. Thank you for researching. Can you please be more specific about what happened each time the CPU escaped? Thanks.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The reason the CPU can escape is because it has perfect timing and can jump escape at the prescise moment it isn't in a hit stun state.

Go do it again at 1/4 the speed and hit the grab attack button as fast as you can. I guarantee that the computer won't escape nearly as often.

 

[munkus beaver]

I see 9 characters Ness/Lucas have virtually no chance against.
I see 7 characters that they have an unsafe or risky change against.
Plus there is the Ice Climbers

That is 17 characters on a 35 character roster that can basically shut down the Mother boys. A lot of those characters are some of the games most popular characters too. Almost half the roster.

Even after all that, most of the characters still get a free attack out of it. If that doesn't make a character nearly unplayable I don't know what does.

Hahahahahaha

Nine if you count all three pokemon trainer guys as seperate characters.

The 'risky' ones are ones that can be hit by an attack out of it, and in the case of most of them, it's easier to hit with the smash than the grab anyway.

I tested this out in a heated battle against a friend. I got about 6 chain grabs off with charizard. I did about 20% damage before he was able to escape. Hardly what I would call broken.

 

[Trapt497]

@ Nessbounder:

^^Dude his/her point is that it is possible. And tourneys wont be played in 1/4th the speed, will they?

Munkus, who was your friend using? Ness or Lucas?

 

[munkus beaver]

Ness.

And you can't test in training mode, are ya'll crazy? That has zero move decay at all.

At any rate, to be effective this has to be chained an insanely high amount of times, during which the jabbing can reach near zero.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Ness.

And you can't test in training mode, are ya'll crazy? That has zero move decay at all.

At any rate, to be effective this has to be chained an insanely high amount of times, during which the jabbing can reach near zero.

Move decay doesn't factor into this, since there's really no "hit" on the release of the attack.

It doesn't matter how little damage it does all around, the fact is it's still possible.

Wolf can get off his best KO move just by grabbing! That's quite a handicap on its own, even without a chain grab.

Ness and Lucas still have hope, but only as counter-picks and against certain characters. (I'm not completely sure how the counter-pick process works in tournaments.)

The silver lining on the storm cloud is that yes, the repeated chain grab DOES do very little damage. There IS a margin for error, and it's not great on small stages like Battlefield.