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Don't use Ness (or Lucas) in tournaments

Cort

Apple Head
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Very many characters can simply grab you, continuously grab attack (this forces you to break out in front of them and makes jumping out after being grabbed impossible), and thanks to faulty programming, Lucas and Ness' animations after leaving a grab are so long it allows a person to grab you again. This works with MANY characters vs both Lucas and Ness.

It also allows said characters (plus more, including ones that can't regrab you after) to pull off quick Smash attacks or tilts to kill you after you break out.

This won't be banned from tournaments. This will just make Lucas and Ness useless in them.

Just a heads up (unless ofcourse you want to anyway and get easily and horribly beaten by someone that just presses grab 3 times/second...)
 

Cort

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What's it matter?

I think it was known for a while that Marth could do it to Ness, but I just recently found out that MANY characters can do it (the grab/grab attack/regrab infinite) and even more can simply attack quickly after waiting for Ness/Lucas to break out.
 

Kiki52

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I thought Lucas can get out of Marth's chain grab but Ness cant?
 

DarkBlue

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Hmm.. if this turns out to be as bad as it sounds, how many ness mains will continue playing him at a competetively level?

Things look bleak.. ;-;
 

Gindler

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Hmmm, how bout instead of breaking out you just don't press any buttons or move your joystick that way they'll pretty much have to throw you.
 

DarkBlue

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Im pretty sure in the end you break out on the same way, but they get more hits on you <_<
 

Gindler

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Ah, I've just done it in a few matches to avoid chaingrabs (with yoshi though). They'll usually stop hitting expecting you to break out sooner cause they don't want to risk messing up the chain grab. Or they get tired of the long time they have to wait for you to break out (pretty common actually, impatience)
 

DarkBlue

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That is true.. I suppose you can end the chain by being unpredictable, but if this is gonna happen every time you get grabbed, it's still real trouble in a match =/

Just a thought, what if they spam C smash while they grab you? Wont that guarantee a hit..?
 

Cort

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I thought Lucas can get out of Marth's chain grab but Ness cant?
You can just dash and regrab Lucas if he DIs away from the break out
Hmmm, how bout instead of breaking out you just don't press any buttons or move your joystick that way they'll pretty much have to throw you.
You will break out eventually.
Ah, I've just done it in a few matches to avoid chaingrabs (with yoshi though). They'll usually stop hitting expecting you to break out sooner cause they don't want to risk messing up the chain grab. Or they get tired of the long time they have to wait for you to break out (pretty common actually, impatience)
Relying on your opponent to suck isn't a good strategy.
 

NoNessNoProblem

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you know if someone wins a tourney with ness this thread is going to make you look real ****ing stupid and i bet someone wins sometime soon
 

Ztarfish

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It's kind of annoying because now it's out in the open. I mean i'm sure that people would figure this out eventually, but this topic is more of a "Hey everyone, look what you can do to Ness" rather than a warning to Ness players.
 

Rapid_Assassin

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You'd still be able to use Ness against characters that can't do this, or against players that suck. Use him for fun. :)
 

Ref

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Refpsi
Why don't you just jump break... You'll get free... Though... It can be hard to do sometimes...
 

Gindler

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You can just dash and regrab Lucas if he DIs away from the break out

You will break out eventually.

Relying on your opponent to suck isn't a good strategy.
I'm not relying on them to suck, I'm relying on them realizing that hitting 5 percent on me with grabs where i don't break out quickly which can be like a 4 second grab would get old fast for them and they'd realize at that rate the game wouldn't end in time.
 

DarkBlue

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Is it possible to jump break if they grab attack you..? I am able to do it occasionally, but never consistently.. I couldnt find out how after testing with a friend, either =/
 

Ref

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Is it possible to jump break if they grab attack you..? I am able to do it occasionally, but never consistently.. I couldnt find out how after testing with a friend, either =/
Yes like I said its hard to do.
 

Cort

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you know if someone wins a tourney with ness this thread is going to make you look real ****ing stupid and i bet someone wins sometime soon
You're a moron.
Why don't you just jump break... You'll get free... Though... It can be hard to do sometimes...
Read the first post?
I'm not relying on them to suck, I'm relying on them realizing that hitting 5 percent on me with grabs where i don't break out quickly which can be like a 4 second grab would get old fast for them and they'd realize at that rate the game wouldn't end in time.
No, you're relying on them to suck.
Is it possible to jump break if they grab attack you..? I am able to do it occasionally, but never consistently.. I couldnt find out how after testing with a friend, either =/
If they continuously grab attack it is IMPOSSIBLE to jump break.
Yes like I said its hard to do.
Wrong.
 

DarkBlue

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Hm.. Tough shiz for the Earthbound guys, then.

Guess I'll have to start using my secondaries a lil' more.
Thanks for the heads up.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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For some reason though, the CPU player can jump break out of it when I try to do it to them, so it must be possible, just inhumanly difficult.

Anyway, why shouldn't this be banned from tournaments? I mean, it shuts down two perfectly good characters who would otherwise be a high or mid tier! In a way, it's similar to Wobbling in Melee! Must we really sacrifice two of the most fun and still powerful characters in the game just because of this? It's really not fair!
 

Ref

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For some reason though, the CPU player can jump break out of it when I try to do it to them, so it must be possible, just inhumanly difficult.

Anyway, why shouldn't this be banned from tournaments? I mean, it shuts down two perfectly good characters who would otherwise be a high or mid tier! In a way, it's similar to Wobbling in Melee! Must we really sacrifice two of the most fun and still powerful characters in the game just because of this? It's really not fair!
Never have I heard such true words...

Humans have the ability to out play cpus, so maybe we just have to try harder in finding a way to jump break.
 

Cort

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For some reason though, the CPU player can jump break out of it when I try to do it to them, so it must be possible, just inhumanly difficult.

Anyway, why shouldn't this be banned from tournaments? I mean, it shuts down two perfectly good characters who would otherwise be a high or mid tier! In a way, it's similar to Wobbling in Melee! Must we really sacrifice two of the most fun and still powerful characters in the game just because of this? It's really not fair!
Because it's a legitimate technique (and honestly, I feel your pain. But it just makes these characters horrible...)

There's no possible way to enforce this ban from happening in matches.

Wobbling was not banned from the majority of national tournaments, and I always allowed it in the local tournaments I helped run. No johns.

It's not fair.. no johns though.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I just did some testing with this, and I have to conclude that it's far more character dependent than initially stated. Note that I did all tests with Ness as the target, not Lucas. Also note that this is generally a far less big deal than it is being made out as. Very low percentages and somewhat high percentages seem to have a fairly easy time doing the jump escape. As long as the Ness player is reasonably good at mashing, this will probably not ruin a matchup for him.

The following four characters can continue this combo unless interrupted by a jump break without moving: Charizard, Marth, Lucas, Snake.

That's it. If they just stand there mashing Z, anyone but those four is inescapable. Other than Lucas, the tether characters are too slow to regrab. Yoshi has the added quirk of ALWAYS being escaped with a jump escape so just add yet another disadvantage to Yoshi's ever growing list. That means we have this list:

Characters who cannot grab combo: Yoshi, Link, Toon Link, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Olimar, Ivysaur

As per the other 28 characters, they are not feasible to test alone as their trick is a "step" version where they take a step forward (quickly so they slide) and grab Ness. For some it's far easier than for others. Squirtle seems to have the easiest regrab while Donkey Kong seems to have the hardest (DK's is almost certainly not forced). I cannot provide further testing here as I'd need another human trying his hardest to escape; those interesting in discovering just how much this matters to Ness should point their attention here. Also, I do not know if Lucas is the exact same; I did not test him.

EDIT: I just tested this with DK's cargo throw, and it is forced standing. Even more, it doesn't seem to allow a jump escape which means that Donkey Kong has an infinite combo against Ness and Lucas. I tested if this works against any other characters beside Ness and Lucas, and while the window to escape DK is very small, everyone else I tested could.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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But nothing like this has ever happened before! In Melee, there wasn't anything even similar to this that effected only two very specific characters! I'm quite sure there is a way to enforce this! There has to be. You could very well just make it a rule that you can't do it more than three times consecutively or something...
 

FreakingMethodiC

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For some reason though, the CPU player can jump break out of it when I try to do it to them, so it must be possible, just inhumanly difficult.

Anyway, why shouldn't this be banned from tournaments? I mean, it shuts down two perfectly good characters who would otherwise be a high or mid tier! In a way, it's similar to Wobbling in Melee! Must we really sacrifice two of the most fun and still powerful characters in the game just because of this? It's really not fair!
Wobbling wasn't banned at every tourneyment.

Infinites in brawl have yet to be banned im pretty sure.

And... because you cant enforce a ban on this.
 

DarkBlue

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I feel your pain.

I lost to a marth doing the same thing. <_<

Need to work on Jumping escapes.. You just mash the jump buttons, or time it and press at a certain point in the grab?
 

Masky

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I think someone posted that you can force a jump-escape by first mashing the buttons, observing after how many grab-bashes Ness escapes, then (after being grabbed again) pressing jump (or jamming backwards on the control stick?) at the time just before you will break out on the second time. Haven't had a chance to test this though since I didn't get to brawl this week.
 

TestRider

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Anyway, why shouldn't this be banned from tournaments? I mean, it shuts down two perfectly good characters who would otherwise be a high or mid tier! In a way, it's similar to Wobbling in Melee! Must we really sacrifice two of the most fun and still powerful characters in the game just because of this? It's really not fair!
Copied and pasted from my post in the Lucas thread:

And how do you suggest such a ban could be enforced? This is the main problem with this thing, everyone will agree that Brawl would be a better competitive game without this chain-grab of doom, but there is no way to enforce the ban in tournament play.

Banning stages is easy; if the tournament rules state that Mushroomy Kingdom is banned for singles, then no player has the right to pick that stage. If anyone insists on picking banned stages, they simply get DQed; end of the story. How, however, would tournament organizers go about banning something like this chain-grab?

First, it cannot be proven that a player actually did this unless he is actually caught in the act, and even then we would have to put complete faith in the person who does the ruling, which, in competitive play, is something you try to avoid as much as possible. So not only is it very hard to actually catch people doing this, but it also makes room for unfair ruling from dishonest "referees". This problem could be solved if the replay saving option worked properly, but most matches last for too long anyway, and a smart player would simply delay the game past the three minutes mark to avoid having his match recorded.

Even if we managed somehow to enforce a rule stipulating that it is illegal to grab Lucas/Ness again after they break out of a grab, people would still be getting several grab hits and a free smash every time they manage to grab Ness or Lucas, making these two bottom of bottom tier. There's also the fact that someone could accidentally grab a second time, and get disqualified because of a small mistake.

This is the kind of design and testing oversight that ruins games, and such a small thing has just made two characters completely unplayable. If more of this **** pops out and Nintendo refuses to patch the game, Brawl will not succeed as a competitive fighter.

The following four characters can continue this combo unless interrupted by a jump break without moving: Charizard, Marth, Lucas, Snake.

That's it..
I haven't done any such testing myself, and I don't want to sound like I don't appreciate your efforts, but there is a very simple fact that destroys your whole argument...

It doesn't matter how many characters can do this, as long as there's one. Even if, say, only Marth could do this, then any player worth his salt would counterpick Marth against Ness and Lucas players, and get a free win. You don't need to be a competent Marth player, all you have to do is press Z repeatedly.

But nothing like this has ever happened before! In Melee, there wasn't anything even similar to this that effected only two very specific characters! I'm quite sure there is a way to enforce this! There has to be. You could very well just make it a rule that you can't do it more than three times consecutively or something...
If you make a rule saying it cannot be done three times (I won't even get into how complicated such a rule would be to enforce), people will simply do it two times, and then follow up with a smash attack. Either way you lose.

It's possible to enforce a ban, but nobody will. Like Cort said, it's not gonna be banned.
I'm quite curious as to how this could be done. I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm a Lucas player myself and I'd really like not having to switch mains, so if you do have an intelligent suggestion to make (unlike some of the previous posters) I'd be interested in hearing it.

By the way for the people comparing this to wobbling, like it's been said wobbling was not banned in most tournaments, and I'm sure it would be too much of a ***** to enforce anyway; those people who did ban it for their tournaments were probably just relying on people's honesty, which is not a very good idea when there's money on the line. Also, if this thing ever got out of hand, we could always ban the Ice Climbers as a last resort (an easily enforceable ban); what are we going to do here, ban Ness and Lucas? :psycho:

A rule which cannot be enforced is pointless.
 
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