Don't Ban Stages that seem the "same"

[KetchupKaffei]

As the title states, I find this very important and think this should be addressed as not only is this important for those who play this game, but also for the viewership/spectators.
After watching this video: https://youtu.be/ag700CBQ7VQ?t=809
It seems that some people in the competitive community, mainly ZeRo, is trying to ban stages for the sake of them being too similar from each other.
I believe heavily that we should not ban stages because of them being almost the same because it creates more of a variety to choose from and also keeps things from being boring overtime because of fatigue. Exhausting stages and the viewers from seeing and hearing the same stage over and over again.

We have been suffering from this issue with Smash Bros. For Wii U and 3DS greatly.
Mainly being that the amount of stages that are even legal is minuscule. Only a handful of 4 stages, having Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, and Town and City(Duck Hunt and Lylat Cruise being retired in most cases). Smashville and Town and City literally almost the same stage with the same theme(visually and music) from the same series(not much of a difference in creativity).
This was one of the few factors as to why the viewership of Smash 4 was also dwindling. Seeing those two stages for the 800th time is an eye sore. Not that it was the competitive community’s doing, but the amount that need to be banned because of reasonable pointed out flaws with other stages that can be unfair due to number of factors.
My point being that the stages to choose from is what can bore someone from playing or watching the game thousands times with same stages, making the game less fun to play on because of the select few stages to choose from when playing competitively.

Melee does suffer the same fate when it comes to variety.
However, even though they have 5 stages to choose from, each one(besides Dreamland and Battlefield) are drastically different and Melee's gameplay itself also compliments it, as Smash 4 doesn’t.

Those who play competitively will probably point out that we can play whatever stage we would like to play if it’s not tournament side/legal.
Although the issue comes in when players like myself that are competitive, will play on stages that are not tournament side/legal and will be frowned upon and not preferred to play on at all by others.
Causing a split within the community because of those that love the variety of actual legal stages, but banned/retired because they just seem the “same”.
If it is the same stage, what is the point of banning the stage in the first place? What harm would that do to have similar stages with small special tweaks? Nothing.

“There’s too many stages, some with unique differences like the blast zone, or the tree blowing wind onto the stage” -Some will say.
So? The thing is, the differences are so small and yet still give a personality to the stage.
It's also easy to note for the amount of possible legal stages that are going to be available when the game comes out. There will be at least probably be up to 20-30 legal stages(not counting Battlefield or Final Destination Forms) including stages with the no-hazards option as well.
Only being a slight difference of platform placements, blast zone, and possible stage movement that has predictive patterns and tweaks.
The amount of stages is not only appealing to choose from when playing with others competitively, not to be bored playing the same few stages again and again, but also eye-candy to those who are going to watch others play in tournaments, keeping things fresh.
We need to evolve and not stay in a very old traditional method to our small choice of stages, this is a great opportunity to take advantage of and we shouldn’t take it for granted.

Last, but not least: Sakurai himself stated he would like for us to consider these stages, as in competitive-wise.
I feel we should just do that, instead of banning stages like this from the gecko, actually being more reasonable than we already are now. We already owe him enough for all these years of playing Smash Bros. to at least to do that for him in my book. It hurts that it seems we’re not even going to at LEAST try that.
I would love to play some serious matches on “similar” stages on Smash Ladder without most people complaining how it’s not tournament legal and what not.
People would love to not see a few stages for the millionth time. People would would like the community to not split apart because of stages preferences.

 

[Uffe]

There is a topic for this. However, I agree with you. The Sm4sh on the 3DS lacked in good enough competitive stages. I think that version of the game was made more for a casual play. Because of this, certain stages had to be legal. Final Destination, Battlefield, Arena Ferox, Brinstar, Jungle Japes (Melee), Prism Tower, and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) were all legal. Eventually, Brinstar and Jungle Japes became banned. I want more playable stages, but I also understand comparing Omega stages with Omega stages and tri-plats with tri-plats. It saves time for bans and counterpicks. But I also don't want more Snoozeville and Town & ****ty.

Final Destination and Battlefield were legal because one had no platforms, and the other had tri-plats.

Arena Ferox was legal for some reason, despite the stage shifting forms like Pokémon Stadium (Melee). It even assisted Ness' PKF when he used it against the breakable statues. It might have even created some delay for multi-hit attacks, giving some characters an advantage. I don't know if it was eventually banned.

Brinstar was probably banned for the rising acid.

Jungle Japes (Melee) work like it did in Melee. The water couldn't be swam in, and there was an occasional Klaptrap that would instantly spike an opponent hanging on the ledge. I think this was banned for that reason.

Prism Tower had walk offs in the beginning of the stage and would change like Halberd, but the layout changed far more drastically, and the stage itself was a platform that you could attack from underneath. It also had a low ceiling making it easier to kill your opponent. It was acceptable on the 3DS, so I imagine it might be legal in Ultimate.

Yoshi's Island (Brawl) had walls and could screw up Ness and Lucas' recovery. This would be a good counterpick against those two characters, but I've heard of certain stages being banned because it countered certain characters. So much for counterpicks.

 

[lucasla]

I just think that all stages should be legal with hazards on and off with random select for all matches. Except only for finals (maybe). Nothing less than this. I don't like the fact that players dont want to deal with stages differences. Just learn all stages and how to deal with all of them.

 

[Sabertooth]

What Smash players consider "legal" stages disgusts me. Are you seriously telling me freaking Dream Land 64 is illegal because Whispy Woods might blow you a little bit? Suck it up and learn the game (not talking to anyone specifically, just the general competitive scene). Competitive Pokemon has elements of luck and it's great because it's just part of the strategy--you have to be ready for what could potentially happen. I'm not saying people should play on janky stages like 75m but seriously, they need to open up to stages like Delfino Plaza and Skyloft.

That being said, this is the only reason I posted

I feel we should just do that, instead of banning stages like this from the gecko

bone apple tea!

 

[Mecakoto]

Competitive Pokémon also has more clauses then a city mall in December. It's not a good comparison.

I agree with the sentiment that we should be trying as many stages as possible, especially since Nintendo has given us tools to make previously illegal stages legal. It's just that that comparison is so bad that it needed to be called out.

 

[Izanagi97]

Yeah, personally, I'm not a fan of there being an incredibly small number of legal stages in competitive

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

If we end up with 7 legal stages from a pool of 103 with a hazard switch, we will have failed big time.

 

[Crystanium]

The reality is no stage is the same. Just because a stage or two have tri-plats doesn't make it the same. M2K's idea of banning a stage like Dream Land (64) because we have Battlefield is indefensible. He and like-minded individuals seem to forget the law of identity. Even a slight difference makes things different.

 

[Arthur97]

What Smash players consider "legal" stages disgusts me. Are you seriously telling me freaking Dream Land 64 is illegal because Whispy Woods might blow you a little bit? Suck it up and learn the game (not talking to anyone specifically, just the general competitive scene). Competitive Pokemon has elements of luck and it's great because it's just part of the strategy--you have to be ready for what could potentially happen. I'm not saying people should play on janky stages like 75m but seriously, they need to open up to stages like Delfino Plaza and Skyloft.

That being said, this is the only reason I posted

bone apple tea!

Wait, who actually banned Dream Land 64?

 

[KetchupKaffei]

Wait, who actually banned Dream Land 64?

Here: https://youtu.be/ag700CBQ7VQ?t=809

What Smash players consider "legal" stages disgusts me. Are you seriously telling me freaking Dream Land 64 is illegal because Whispy Woods might blow you a little bit? Suck it up and learn the game (not talking to anyone specifically, just the general competitive scene). Competitive Pokemon has elements of luck and it's great because it's just part of the strategy--you have to be ready for what could potentially happen. I'm not saying people should play on janky stages like 75m but seriously, they need to open up to stages like Delfino Plaza and Skyloft.

That being said, this is the only reason I posted

bone apple tea!

Yea, they would ban stages that were predictable and not random like Lylat and Duck Hunt. The Smash 4 competitive community is extremely picky with stages. And now this is a all-time low. No one likes to learn about stages anymore.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Ban Lylat instead.

Like this post fer sum free V-bucks.

 

[Izanagi97]

Here: https://youtu.be/ag700CBQ7VQ?t=809


Yea, they would ban stages that were predictable and not random like Lylat and Duck Hunt. The Smash 4 competitive community is extremely picky with stages. And now this is a all-time low. No one likes to learn about stages anymore.

I mean I'm a lazy person but jesus christ

 

[Khao]

Honestly, no. Allowing too many stages with a similar layout creates the exact opposite of variety (unless you literally only care about visuals), and makes any striking system completely pointless (or convoluted, once you start adding super specific rules and exceptions to strike similar stages at once).

Having only a couple of Battlefield-type stages is fine, especially since the stage list is most certainly going to be larger thanks to the hazard toggle. We have enough stages to have a larger-than-ever-before amount of completely unique layouts. If anything, allowing for a bunch of Battlefield clones is going to be redundant and will make stage-picking more predictable despite having more options.

 

[Lexlanson]

I would like to see more variety in competitive stages. Especially with all the options we're being given in this new game, it would be a shame if we only ended up using a handful of stages competitively. But just like there can be strategic elements to counterpicking characters, there should also be some strategy in counterpicking stages, which is hard to do when the stages are all basically the same. Though...with selecting the stage before your character now, who knows how that'll play out. Either way, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Fountain of Dreams.
.

 

[Sabertooth]

I would also like to see Stage Builder be used in a competitive capacity. It would be nice to have some carefully-created stages, deemed legal by multiple professionals and open to be downloaded by anyone. Maybe the visuals are kind of bland, but at least we'd get a variety of layouts and music.

 

[Arthur97]

I would also like to see Stage Builder be used in a competitive capacity. It would be nice to have some carefully-created stages, deemed legal by multiple professionals and open to be downloaded by anyone. Maybe the visuals are kind of bland, but at least we'd get a variety of layouts and music.

But who are the "professionals?" Because it was apparently high profile players that banned Dream Land 64.

 

[Sabertooth]

Good question. I don't trust any of those guys. Fine, I'll do it.

 

[HeavenWolfHD]

Stage that are the "same" like Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Dreamland and Midgar should be be considered as the same stage or you could do 1 strike on one of these stage if the player select Battlefield.
Btw Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2 are the exact same with no hazard ?

 

[smashingDoug]

I agree.

So what if dreamland 64 is too similar to battlefield. Wouldn’t you get sick of seeing the backdrop of battlefield and hearing music of battlefield all the time until Smash 6 or 5.5

 

[Crystanium]

Honestly, no. Allowing too many stages with a similar layout creates the exact opposite of variety (unless you literally only care about visuals), and makes any striking system completely pointless (or convoluted, once you start adding super specific rules and exceptions to strike similar stages at once).

The striking system is pointless anyway. This is why you see Smashville or Town & City the majority of the time. No one cares. It's doubtful most players bother striking stages. In fact, when Nintendo Direct 8.8.18 happened, people like D1 and Nairo said something like, "Get that **** outta here" when one of the themes from one of those stages played while Sakurai was talking about the variety of music. People aren't interested in it. If the option is going to be that by striking one stage, similar stages are struck, then fine. Just as long as you can have different tri-plat stages with different backgrounds and music. Hell, even blast zones could be different.

Having only a couple of Battlefield-type stages is fine, especially since the stage list is most certainly going to be larger thanks to the hazard toggle. We have enough stages to have a larger-than-ever-before amount of completely unique layouts. If anything, allowing for a bunch of Battlefield clones is going to be redundant and will make stage-picking more predictable despite having more options.

The problem with the word "clone" is that they're not all the same. They're similar stages. Stages that are the same would have the same blast zone, background, music, design, &c. Dream Land (64) and Battlefield are considered the same because they're tri-plats, but it's obvious that they aren't. Take Pikachu to Battlefield and he can do his Quick Attack Cancelling. Take it to Dream Land (64) and there's going to be problems. The blast zones aren't even the same. It's not just about pro players anymore. Without viewership, tournaments aren't going to go so well.

 

[Kadji100]

Why were people crying out loud for a hazard toggle...
..oh right, so they can ban the stages that would benefit from such a toggle anyway.

- Wanting to ban huuuge stages or stages with a cave of life i can understand and support.
- Wanting to ban walkoff stages i can understand and support.
- Wanting to ban gimmicky Stages (75m, Stages where you can swim, transforming stages) i can understand and support.

But WHY are we banning like 80% of the aviable Stages WITHOUT any (valid) reasoning?

And don't tell me that too many stages would mean you have to learn to many different things.
Or do you want to tell me that you know the exact percentages of every matchup for every (tournament legal) stage and the position you and your enemy need to be so that could knock him/her out?
Maybe if you are in the top 8, but not the general "competitive" player.

So don't come me with that "to much variety is bad because we have to learn so much". What IS there to learn?

Or can people seriously answer the question "at how much percentage can Peach kill Bowser from the middle of Deream Land if Whispy Woods is blowing to the left" during a competitive Match?

I don't think so.

/competitiveSmash

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Why were people crying out loud for a hazard toggle...
..oh right, so they can ban the stages that would benefit from such a toggle anyway.

- Wanting to ban huuuge stages or stages with a cave of life i can understand and support.
- Wanting to ban walkoff stages i can understand and support.
- Wanting to ban gimmicky Stages (75m, Stages where you can swim, transforming stages) i can understand and support.

But WHY are we banning like 80% of the aviable Stages WITHOUT any (valid) reasoning?

And don't tell me that too many stages would mean you have to learn to many different things.
Or do you want to tell me that you know the exact percentages of every matchup for every (tournament legal) stage and the position you and your enemy need to be so that could knock him/her out?
Maybe if you are in the top 8, but not the general "competitive" player.

So don't come me with that "to much variety is bad because we have to learn so much". What IS there to learn?

Or can people seriously answer the question "at how much percentage can Peach kill Bowser from the middle of Deream Land if Whispy Woods is blowing to the left" during a competitive Match?

I don't think so.

/competitiveSmash

I’m sure there’s a lot that goes into banning these stages. A lot of stages well...went overboard in smash 4. A lot of moving platform stages, hazards, walk offs etc., but a majority of it has to do with the design of the game itself.

Delfino Plaza was a counter pick / legal in Brawl, but banned in smash due to a part of the transformation that made the best zone incredibly small. So standing on the top platform and getting an up throw at mid percents or an up b out of shield for some characters was enough to secure a stock. And for a 2 stock game, that’s pretty rough.

A lot of stages simply promoted a lot of defensive play, and some characters didn’t have the neutral strength they had in Brawl, or the maneuverability to avoid getting comboed for making a single mistake. Basically combing the games ability to promote heavily defensive play, simplified neutral, and combo linearity made it hard for players who weren’t experienced with counter pick stages to prosper.

I could go more into this, but my time is limited. It’s best to go research for yourself honestly: but I would personally love to see more stages due to atmospheric and musical variety in the game. And having them available off the bat helps as well.

 

[KirbCider]

I fully agree with this.

The lack of stage variety sucked hardcore in Smash 4 and to me it made things pretty bland feeling. I can understand the reasoning's for banning a lot of stages because they may have some jank or even promote camping/unfairness in some instances; however I feel no one is giving certain stages a chance.

"Nope, it's banned because of this tiny little itty bitty flaw right here. It's got a good layout but nope that single flaw makes it literally unplayable!"

I truly hope history does not repeat itself and we only get stuck with 5 to 7 stages again. Ultimate is going to have 103 stages (or 108 if you believe the rumor and/or it ends up being true) and with the ability to toggle hazards off, choose from Battlefield AND Omega forms, and maybe Stage Morphing if it's decided that will be legal somehow I hope we get a nice variety going. People need to give things a chance even if a stage doesn't seem like it'll be 100% perfect at first. Sure, we don't want too many stages but having such a small amount is even worse. Sometimes people just have to set their pickiness aside.

I definitely want things to be different this time around.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

"Nope, it's banned because of this tiny little itty bitty flaw right here. It's got a good layout but nope that single flaw makes it literally unplayable!"

Yeah, this is the main issue. One thing happens one time at one tournament, and it blows up online, and everyone starts proclaiming that they don't want to experience that horrible event ever. Heaven forbid the game have a little bit variety at the cost of giving a few characters temporary advantages. The early days of Melee embraced this, and we saw Rainbow Cruise at MLG. Today, it's been reduced to the most sterile stage selection possible.

 

[Crystanium]

The thing about counter-picks is that they're supposed to benefit the one choosing. By making a stage illegal just because someone used the stage to their advantage defeats the purpose of counter-picking. "Oh, no. Link just defeated Meta Knight on x stage. Ban it now!"

 

[Arthur97]

I fully agree with this.

The lack of stage variety sucked hardcore in Smash 4 and to me it made things pretty bland feeling. I can understand the reasoning's for banning a lot of stages because they may have some jank or even promote camping/unfairness in some instances; however I feel no one is giving certain stages a chance.

"Nope, it's banned because of this tiny little itty bitty flaw right here. It's got a good layout but nope that single flaw makes it literally unplayable!"

I truly hope history does not repeat itself and we only get stuck with 5 to 7 stages again. Ultimate is going to have 103 stages (or 108 if you believe the rumor and/or it ends up being true) and with the ability to toggle hazards off, choose from Battlefield AND Omega forms, and maybe Stage Morphing if it's decided that will be legal somehow I hope we get a nice variety going. People need to give things a chance even if a stage doesn't seem like it'll be 100% perfect at first. Sure, we don't want too many stages but having such a small amount is even worse. Sometimes people just have to set their pickiness aside.

I definitely want things to be different this time around.

From what I read stage morphing causes some chug so I doubt it would see competitive use.

 

[Izanagi97]

I’m sure there’s a lot that goes into banning these stages. A lot of stages well...went overboard in smash 4. A lot of moving platform stages, hazards, walk offs etc., but a majority of it has to do with the design of the game itself.

Delfino Plaza was a counter pick / legal in Brawl, but banned in smash due to a part of the transformation that made the best zone incredibly small. So standing on the top platform and getting an up throw at mid percents or an up b out of shield for some characters was enough to secure a stock. And for a 2 stock game, that’s pretty rough.

A lot of stages simply promoted a lot of defensive play, and some characters didn’t have the neutral strength they had in Brawl, or the maneuverability to avoid getting comboed for making a single mistake. Basically combing the games ability to promote heavily defensive play, simplified neutral, and combo linearity made it hard for players who weren’t experienced with counter pick stages to prosper.

I could go more into this, but my time is limited. It’s best to go research for yourself honestly: but I would personally love to see more stages due to atmospheric and musical variety in the game. And having them available off the bat helps as well.

I thought Delfino got banned in brawl because it was one of like 5 or so previously legal (or counterpick) stages that made Meta Knight literally god unless I'm thinking of a different stage.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

I thought Delfino got banned in brawl because it was one of like 5 or so previously legal (or counterpick) stages that made Meta Knight literally god unless I'm thinking of a different stage.

Yes, there were a few stages which would have been universally legal if wasn't unbearably broken, Delfino Plaza being one of them. I actually believe that was part of the reason why Frigate Orpheon got banned in Smash Brawl too.

 

[lucasla]

Just change the dinossaurs responsible for the tournaments of Smash and maybe we can see more stages being avaiable. If pro players are complaining, let their space open for new pro players that are able to play in any stage without complain.

 

[KirbCider]

From what I read stage morphing causes some chug so I doubt it would see competitive use.

I sort of figured as much that was going to happen.

I've been keeping up with announcements and updates but haven't been reading into all the discussions and findings too much. Still, I really hope they'll at least give it at least ONE try when the game is fully released and out instead of sticking their noses up at it from it being used in the Demo version.

 

[Luigifan18]

From what I read stage morphing causes some chug so I doubt it would see competitive use.

Define "chug", please.

 

[Arthur97]

Define "chug", please.

Frame rate drop.

 

[Necro'lic]

This entire thread needs to be reiterated, because it seems like so much of this trigger happy banning of stages is rooted in not thinking about any other system we could have. Rather than working in a system that fits with the stages, we stubbornly try to fit a square peg in a round hole it seems. Why was the veto system not applicable? That seemed like a good system for what we are actually getting.

Because I swear to god if even after bringing in a hazardless option, we still somehow play mental gymnastics and try so desperately to not even get 10% of the stages as legal, I think I would lose literally all the faith I have for this community's ability to actually set up stagelists.

That exaggeration people had on the comp community trying so hard to get rid of stages for the purpose of getting rid of stages would no longer be exaggeration. It would just be fact.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I thought Delfino got banned in brawl because it was one of like 5 or so previously legal (or counterpick) stages that made Meta Knight literally god unless I'm thinking of a different stage.

I was talking about smash 4 actually. Sorry I was rushing, plus typing on the phone, you know the deal. I like Delfino a lot, but it definitely could be abused lol.

 

[Crystanium]

There are a number of reasons for banning stages. These include cave of life, walk-offs, stalling, walls, stage size, and several others I know I am missing. I didn't mention hazards because that's not going to matter. Not entitely, anyway. The rushing water on Jungle Japes can pull the opponent away. But, then so can platforms on Town & City. Oops.

Cave of life is a term used for stages where ceilings prevent players from dying early, due to teching. Walk-offs may include swimming. Walls can be used like ceilings, so those stages are removed. Stage size is funny because a small stage is preferred over a large one. A large stage can promote camping or stalling. The former shouldn't be an issue.

I'm fine with banning stages like those, due to people manipulating the timer and causing a drop in viewership. No one wants to watch players running. They want to watch a fight. I still stand to the idea that if we have to strike every other tri-plat stage if we strike one, we should still be given the option to choose a tri-plat of our choice if it isn't struck.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

Sorry for my late response, I was unable to message as I was out of town.


That being said. I think I am giving up on the competitive community.

They have honestly made me entirely disappointed with how the stages are going to look in tournaments now. Their reasoning for choices are as bad as Smash 4.

We’ll basically have static stages, community most likely making Foundation of Dream’s platforms static, getting rid of Randal in Yoshi’s Story, Town-and-City and Smashville platforms static and even making Pokemon Stadium(Melee) static and not transform at all.

What a disgrace.


This game deserves far better and I guess we’ll have a split in the community because no one wants to learn the most simplest of things. I wouldn’t be surprised if they ban stages too because of the too many of the “same” stages too.

Like when I played Smash 4; I guess I’ll just stick with playing this game, but watching Melee. Again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNCI70HsvVY&t=0s&index=5&list=FLgZNoBWoWD6269eEHJ7R14w

 

[Jakisthe]

The competitive community hates being even a little experimental with regards to settings and it sucks. See: how Squad Strike will 100% be relegated to "side tourneys", despite being objectively more interesting and not any worse balanced.

 

[Izanagi97]

The competitive community hates being even a little experimental with regards to settings and it sucks. See: how Squad Strike will 100% be relegated to "side tourneys", despite being objectively more interesting and not any worse balanced.

Honestly, I just think it's bull**** that there are likely plenty of things they won't even bother testing and just relegate to side events or ban them outright.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm increasingly starting to think the competitive Smash community is immature, inconsistent, and doesn't know what they actually want.

How long have we collectively bemoaned the lack of competitively viable stages in Smash 4, especially relative to the total number of stages? How much did we facepalm when Sakurai apparently bought into the "no items fox only final destination" meme with For Glory being omega-only? How often did we wish for a hazard toggle so we could play on stages like Kalos and Warioware and even Castle Siege without having to deal with the incidental bull**** caused by their hazards?

Now we finally get a hazard toggle, and while it doesn't work perfectly, it's still a massive leap forward. And a distressingly common reaction is "...actually, let's not take full advantage of this."

Are you ****ing kidding me?

 

[Izanagi97]

I'm increasingly starting to think the competitive Smash community is immature, inconsistent, and doesn't know what they actually want.

How long have we collectively bemoaned the lack of competitively viable stages in Smash 4, especially relative to the total number of stages? How much did we facepalm when Sakurai apparently bought into the "no items fox only final destination" meme with For Glory being omega-only? How often did we wish for a hazard toggle so we could play on stages like Kalos and Warioware and even Castle Siege without having to deal with the incidental bull**** caused by their hazards?

Now we finally get a hazard toggle, and while it doesn't work perfectly, it's still a massive leap forward. And a distressingly common reaction is "...actually, let's not take full advantage of this."

Are you ****ing kidding me?

Seriously, We have Omega, Battlefield, Hazardless, and Normal variants of stages and and there are people still want the legal stage list to only be in the single digits for... reasons.