It takes some time to get the bananas out, more time than you should allow Diddy to have. Either punish him for pressing down B, or punish him whenever he tries to go pick up a banana. The only time he should be able to get both bananas out is after landing a KO, and then it's your job to take stage control from him using the respawn invincibility.
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Donkey Kong's matchup thread
- Thread starter BertEast
- Start date
GrizzleDrizz1ed
Smash Apprentice
Just to be clear, Jumping Cargo Throw (JCT) into Fair is really effective against Olimar. I think it's probably good against most Floaties too, but I'm not gonna make a truth statement on that. Bthrow is not for combo's and should be used to get way off stage so you can attempt a Nair to block his recovery. Cargo Uthrow is solid for racking up early damage, or when you get a grab in the middle of the stage. If you Grab him near the edge and he's over 50%, you should always JCT off the stage.
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
DI'ing down and away pretty much gets rid of all the followups on cargo fthrows and cargo bthrows, which I am guessing is what you are talking about when you say JCT. You can however, still try and wait in the air after the throw and try to land a headbutt by calling when they'll doublejump, but it's hardly guaranteed, especially to someone who knows the match-up.
Diddy can pull them any time he gets a decent hit at mid-high percents. Knock opponent away, pull bananas. I've seen a few Diddy's stop edgeguarding pretty much altogether just because they could just spend that time pulling bananas instead. Bananas come out on frame 20, which ain't too slow, especially when they come from one of the faster characters in the game.
bËst^
Smash Journeyman
I've played DK since the release of project M 3.0 and I've found him very versatile character. I've got high record so far playing against locals and I'm willing to develope DK as far as he can possibly go.
But there are few match up I got very few experience, those should be important to know:
First of all match up against Pit. So far I got the experience, that if DK just can get out of combo's and is able to catch pit-player, he can punish very hard with cargo kills in low percentages. Mixing cargo throws and fair's can lead to kill near @ 100%. But if there is sharpshooter like armada, it could make DK's life a living hell. Is the only way to battle against pit taking him in a small stage and keep on close combat pressure?
Secondly: I have no experience agains snake. Can't really descripe it whether that is hard match up or not but I would love to take some hint from anyone who has played that match up more than me. AS far as I know, DK should be able to neutralize Snakes recovery meining snake is in deep trouble off stage.
But there are few match up I got very few experience, those should be important to know:
First of all match up against Pit. So far I got the experience, that if DK just can get out of combo's and is able to catch pit-player, he can punish very hard with cargo kills in low percentages. Mixing cargo throws and fair's can lead to kill near @ 100%. But if there is sharpshooter like armada, it could make DK's life a living hell. Is the only way to battle against pit taking him in a small stage and keep on close combat pressure?
Secondly: I have no experience agains snake. Can't really descripe it whether that is hard match up or not but I would love to take some hint from anyone who has played that match up more than me. AS far as I know, DK should be able to neutralize Snakes recovery meining snake is in deep trouble off stage.
I always tell people to learn one thing against Snake : instant tossing. This Brawl technique consists in catching an item with an airdodge and cancelling the airdodge by tossing that same item. Essentially, you're air glide tossing an item before it's in your hand.
Now this technique is good against all item users (Diddy especially), but against Snake it requires a bit of finesse : if he shields, the grenade is going to drop down slowly and since the fuse is so short, probably blow you up. So you have to look at what snake is doing and if he's not in a position to shield, spam the hell out of this technique. That should cut off half of his camping power, because he'll now have to stay stationnary so you don't send grenades flying back at him. Make him respect you and he'll dramastically calm down.
I traditionally instant toss by doing triangle jumps with an additionnal C stick input. But if you are certain you're going to succeed (in example when the grenade is sitting on a platform), you can use lateral and upwards glides instead, which may help a bit.
Snake's out of shield is not to be messed with. He can either drop a grenade so that you eat 10% if you attack his shield too recklessly, do a frame 5 upB that's invincible up to frame 4 and is only -3 on block, or grab you, and you really don't want Snake to grab you. Always mind the direction he is facing : you can attack the front of his shield alright, but attacking the back of it is asking for a nade.
Luckily, we are a grappler character : shielding is generally a bad idea against DK. Make him respect your Z button by predicting shields.
Snake is juggle food due to a high falling speed and very low horizontal air speed, so go nuts on him when you do land a grab. He does take very little hitstun because of his weight though. Abuse the cargo to get out of the nade's blowing range if he dropped one before you grabbed him. But Snake is the Trade Master : if you leave him alone for 8 frames, he'll have a grenade out and attempt to combo break with it. To counter this, aim for his legs : he holds the grenade high and to the back, so even though it cuts some angles of attacks, it still leaves a lot of his hurtbox vulnerable.
While comboing him, try to put him offstage, low if possible : you can dair his upB, it will meteor him and you'll get hit by the cypher, which will help you recover, so you can really go fish for those gimps very deep. Snake's recovery is infinite : if you don't kill him, he'll come back, even if it costs him greatly.
I suggest being cautious with dash attacks : they lose to all of his projectiles, including the tranq, which leads to a lot of pain. I only use it to juggle in this matchup tbh.
Snake will use B reverse grenades to get out of juggles, don't let it fool you.
Recovering as DK against Snake is going to be extremely painful. He can fair spike you quite easily, drop a C4 from above and detonate it remotely, among other things. I like picking stages with platforms so that I can at least mixup between recovering high and low.
You can run into mines and shield them by using the little slide you do after a dash shield. You can use them though (cargo dthrow him into it), my general plan is to get rid of them if I'm stickied, and try to use them to my advantage otherwise. It's a bit harder to get rid of them if he plants them on a platform I must say.
Nothing we have beats his juggle game. Just DI towards a ledge so that it stops sooner because of a lack of terrain for him to fall back on.
Snake's approaches suck. If you manage to get a lead, it's going to be a much smoother ride.
Of course, try not to get C4'd, it reduces your life expectancy by a good 60%. That includes not shielding stupidly (it can be stickied through shields), and being careful in the respawn phase. Also try not to get grabbed before at least 40%.
I'd say Snake wins the matchup by a respectable margin, but you can still take him and I find it very interesting.
Now this technique is good against all item users (Diddy especially), but against Snake it requires a bit of finesse : if he shields, the grenade is going to drop down slowly and since the fuse is so short, probably blow you up. So you have to look at what snake is doing and if he's not in a position to shield, spam the hell out of this technique. That should cut off half of his camping power, because he'll now have to stay stationnary so you don't send grenades flying back at him. Make him respect you and he'll dramastically calm down.
I traditionally instant toss by doing triangle jumps with an additionnal C stick input. But if you are certain you're going to succeed (in example when the grenade is sitting on a platform), you can use lateral and upwards glides instead, which may help a bit.
Snake's out of shield is not to be messed with. He can either drop a grenade so that you eat 10% if you attack his shield too recklessly, do a frame 5 upB that's invincible up to frame 4 and is only -3 on block, or grab you, and you really don't want Snake to grab you. Always mind the direction he is facing : you can attack the front of his shield alright, but attacking the back of it is asking for a nade.
Luckily, we are a grappler character : shielding is generally a bad idea against DK. Make him respect your Z button by predicting shields.
Snake is juggle food due to a high falling speed and very low horizontal air speed, so go nuts on him when you do land a grab. He does take very little hitstun because of his weight though. Abuse the cargo to get out of the nade's blowing range if he dropped one before you grabbed him. But Snake is the Trade Master : if you leave him alone for 8 frames, he'll have a grenade out and attempt to combo break with it. To counter this, aim for his legs : he holds the grenade high and to the back, so even though it cuts some angles of attacks, it still leaves a lot of his hurtbox vulnerable.
While comboing him, try to put him offstage, low if possible : you can dair his upB, it will meteor him and you'll get hit by the cypher, which will help you recover, so you can really go fish for those gimps very deep. Snake's recovery is infinite : if you don't kill him, he'll come back, even if it costs him greatly.
I suggest being cautious with dash attacks : they lose to all of his projectiles, including the tranq, which leads to a lot of pain. I only use it to juggle in this matchup tbh.
Snake will use B reverse grenades to get out of juggles, don't let it fool you.
Recovering as DK against Snake is going to be extremely painful. He can fair spike you quite easily, drop a C4 from above and detonate it remotely, among other things. I like picking stages with platforms so that I can at least mixup between recovering high and low.
You can run into mines and shield them by using the little slide you do after a dash shield. You can use them though (cargo dthrow him into it), my general plan is to get rid of them if I'm stickied, and try to use them to my advantage otherwise. It's a bit harder to get rid of them if he plants them on a platform I must say.
Nothing we have beats his juggle game. Just DI towards a ledge so that it stops sooner because of a lack of terrain for him to fall back on.
Snake's approaches suck. If you manage to get a lead, it's going to be a much smoother ride.
Of course, try not to get C4'd, it reduces your life expectancy by a good 60%. That includes not shielding stupidly (it can be stickied through shields), and being careful in the respawn phase. Also try not to get grabbed before at least 40%.
I'd say Snake wins the matchup by a respectable margin, but you can still take him and I find it very interesting.
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DiZZ
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2012
- Messages
- 140
So ive been playing dk in melee for about 3 years now and 1 in pm and overall I feel like there is 1 matchup that is almost near impossible for dk in pm that use to be a breeze in melee. The addition to gnw being able to easily juggle dk he now has an up b that pulls you up and continues to 0 to death you and even if you sdi out of his combo game you just took about 70% and have almost no options other than nairs and bairs to get through his wall of bacon where he then just runs away and spaces out even more with his bacon. Your recovery options are completely null in void in the mu as well due to his amazing dair fsmash and tilts. I don't know if I am just not figuring out something groundbreaking in the mu or is it really this terrible for the poor Kong. Id like to also now about other mus you guys are struggling with so that we can all calculate a plan of attack to make dk's mu more finessed to the point where we can take over the pm meta game :D
BertEast
Smash Apprentice
GnW's juggle game is just amazing overall, you just need to sort of avoid him if you get caught. You win on the ground though. You can outreach him and take stocks off at really early percents
BertEast
Smash Apprentice
If you're having trouble getting in, you might be playing way to impatiently. GnW can box you out with his long lasting attacks, however, you just need to stay close, bait out his laggier moves, and punish. The most reliable way for me to get in on GnW is to wait and punish, similar to Marth, you can't just charge in.
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BertEast
Smash Apprentice
If he's makin' eggs and bacon then you're giving him to much space, and not enough pressure. I personally think the matchup is in DK's favor, since it is really easy for me.
BertEast
Smash Apprentice
LOL okay then. Maybe you're just awful at the game?
BertEast
Smash Apprentice
I know, I'm sorry, that was uncalled for.
Just watch some Nintendude videos and see what other players are doing. General tactics like proper spacing and baiting are really important overall in the matchup. If you're getting caught with that upb, then chances are you're not spacing your attacks well, or your overcommitting when he is in shield.
If hes setting up Eggs n' Bacon, then he must have a lot of space and time to do it. You shouldn't be giving him this space to do it, since when you do, you're giving him that opportunity and it is a little hard to get in once he puts out his Double Bacons. I'm awful at full out matchup analysis, but I'm sure others agree with me when I say keep pressure on him so he doesn't set up, don't overcommit, bait his attacks, and space your attacks properly
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Planet Piss
Smash Journeyman
I'd have to agree with Dizz here. G&W's neutral B doesn't need space to spam against DK because the pan has a hitbox and can push you back. You can't attack out of shield because of the bacon in the air, and the pan will whittle away your shield while GAW gets autocancel upon landing and can go into one of his many high-priority ground moves if not just grab. Crouch cancelling, one of DK's best options, gets wrecked by G&W's dtilt, and DD grabs o grabs in general won't work if there is bacon in the air.
From my experience, many G&W players don't use neutral B to the extent that they should. They might flip some bacon up in the air to help with an approach, but then go into Melee fundamentals mode soon thereafter. However, when they employ constant bacon spacing, there is zero reason for them to stop and fall for whatever you're baiting. Despite the fact that G&W can only flip two of them in a short hop, he can continuously fling more and more, aiming them relative to your position on the stage.
Against DK, G&W can just keep him at bay by constantly enshrouding himself in tiny little hitboxes, and because of the autocancel pan with auto-knockback, closing in on him if he gets hit by even one. Basically, in this MU, DK is forced into running around on a top platform until he finds a hole in the bacon because there may be more than a couple flying around, which in turn lessen his chances of blasting through and getting a hit.
What I would recommend against spammy G&W is immediately going full aggro until he dies, and then playing defensively until you find another opportunity. If you start out the match in his face, you don't allow him to get the bacon up in time to stall you out. He's extremely light and floaty, so you can kill him very easily once you've gotten just one hit. When he's recovering, he will probably try to attack you, so avoid these or tie with a nair or something. His dair out-prioritizes your uair, but he's too floaty and fragile for that to really mean anything. If he is above you, from up+B or otherwise (up+B being his only real combo-escaping option), wait patiently until he does something.
G&W is a gigantic bluff, especially versus DK. He plays like he's a big meanie but it's mostly a facade. Whoop his ass early on, and then run away until he gives you an opening. See how he likes it. I wouldn't say the MU is even, but it's very doable if you don't let him boss you around. Whoever takes the first stock will probably win if they play patiently the whole time.
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
Hey guys! over at the Olimar Matchup thread we're discussing olimar vs donkey kong. come talk about it with us!
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
Good Stages:
Percent at which flowered purple usmash can kill at: 93%
Matchup Ratio:4.5-5.5 in DK's favor
Tips:
Percent at which flowered purple usmash can kill at: 93%
Matchup Ratio:4.5-5.5 in DK's favor
Tips:
this is olimar vs dk. remember this is advice for olimar.
erasmorpheous
Smash Cadet
I don't know if it's just me but I very much enjoy bringing my dk out vs link/toonlink. I main mario but feel like I have more success bringing dk out against them. Range and a better answer to their projectiles are my reasons. What are everyone's thoughts on this matchup?
BertEast
Smash Apprentice
I can imagine both matchups are doable. I've played a few toon links, and I use DK for that matchup.
DirtyRoach
Smash Cadet
So I see nothing about squamus (samus) so, I want to ask, how does one deal with missiles? I find myself hating it more and more every single time I eat a missile.
As for link/tink, I find the matchup super easy once you know how to effectively play with bombs. It's not often a link expects his bomb to come soaring back at him, and it can often lead you into a well-spaced fair or nair for an early kill.
As for link/tink, I find the matchup super easy once you know how to effectively play with bombs. It's not often a link expects his bomb to come soaring back at him, and it can often lead you into a well-spaced fair or nair for an early kill.
erasmorpheous
Smash Cadet
Homing ones I mostly avoid and the fast ones I go for the power-shield. DK has a very large shield making him one of the easier characters to land those reflects.Learning to effectively power-shield makes some matchups against projectile characters much much better.
DirtyRoach
Smash Cadet
I did get quite a few good powershields in our last bout around the fight. I'll just have to practice more and more on my powershield timing
SSS
Smash Ace
In regards to Snake.
As you said, don't shield. He can sticky through shield. If you're shielding on a platform, he can upB-->sticky you easily. Actually just avoid platforms altogether, as Snake loves when you're on a platform above him.
The whole grenade toss thing isn't as useful in PM as it is in Brawl, as grenades blow up much faster (1 second faster, I believe). Even if he is throwing them so early that you have time to AGT them (which you probably won't, since a lot of Snakes will just be dropping grenade with shield-->wavedash OoS to pick up grenade to throw it harder as an item. they will abuse this against DK who doesn't have many options against this at long range.), if you do it too much the Snake will cook it for like a quarter of a second longer and make you eat the grenade when you try to toss it. Even if your airdodge keeps you from being hit by the nade, you'll then have airdodged without actually having a grenade to stop Snake from getting in. He'll then be able to get a free sticky/utilt/grab/whatever on you as you fall. Even if you're far, he might be able to get a mortar slide.
As a Snake player I love fighting DK because he's so fat (easy to sticky) and his weight and fallspeed are perfect for uthrow juggles into stickies. Don't go to Wario Ware, even if you love it as a DK. The platforms will be abused by Snake (dat platform pressure. he'll upB you to sticky if you're shielding, or he'll upB-->autocancel uair on the platform (which just gets him out of upB instantly)-->jab/grab/utilt/sticky/whateverthehellhewants. His mines, grenades, and c4 will cover one half the stage while his upsmash covers the other side, not to mention he can dacus across the entire stage for free and blow up any mines set on upper platforms. as DK you're so fat that Snake can give you very very little room to breathe. also on WarioWare, due to the low ceiling (and again, how fat you are and how easy to sticky), Snake can pretty much get a zero to death on you (pretty much guaranteed) if he gets a grab at early percents. Grab-->uthrow-->grab-->uthrow-->grab-->uthrow-->upb-->sticky-->grab-->uthrow-->upb-->uair-->detonate. Or something like that.
I don't have enough experience with Kirby vs DK to say what that matchup's like. I'll try to see what I can figure out. My Ivysaur is trash so ignore that little picture in the signature. It might even be gone by the time you read this.
As you said, don't shield. He can sticky through shield. If you're shielding on a platform, he can upB-->sticky you easily. Actually just avoid platforms altogether, as Snake loves when you're on a platform above him.
The whole grenade toss thing isn't as useful in PM as it is in Brawl, as grenades blow up much faster (1 second faster, I believe). Even if he is throwing them so early that you have time to AGT them (which you probably won't, since a lot of Snakes will just be dropping grenade with shield-->wavedash OoS to pick up grenade to throw it harder as an item. they will abuse this against DK who doesn't have many options against this at long range.), if you do it too much the Snake will cook it for like a quarter of a second longer and make you eat the grenade when you try to toss it. Even if your airdodge keeps you from being hit by the nade, you'll then have airdodged without actually having a grenade to stop Snake from getting in. He'll then be able to get a free sticky/utilt/grab/whatever on you as you fall. Even if you're far, he might be able to get a mortar slide.
As a Snake player I love fighting DK because he's so fat (easy to sticky) and his weight and fallspeed are perfect for uthrow juggles into stickies. Don't go to Wario Ware, even if you love it as a DK. The platforms will be abused by Snake (dat platform pressure. he'll upB you to sticky if you're shielding, or he'll upB-->autocancel uair on the platform (which just gets him out of upB instantly)-->jab/grab/utilt/sticky/whateverthehellhewants. His mines, grenades, and c4 will cover one half the stage while his upsmash covers the other side, not to mention he can dacus across the entire stage for free and blow up any mines set on upper platforms. as DK you're so fat that Snake can give you very very little room to breathe. also on WarioWare, due to the low ceiling (and again, how fat you are and how easy to sticky), Snake can pretty much get a zero to death on you (pretty much guaranteed) if he gets a grab at early percents. Grab-->uthrow-->grab-->uthrow-->grab-->uthrow-->upb-->sticky-->grab-->uthrow-->upb-->uair-->detonate. Or something like that.
I don't have enough experience with Kirby vs DK to say what that matchup's like. I'll try to see what I can figure out. My Ivysaur is trash so ignore that little picture in the signature. It might even be gone by the time you read this.
On samus missiles :
There are four types of missiles because of the fire/ice forms, and the missiles you want to perfect shield (reflect) swap depending on the transformation she's using : her fire homing missile and her ice straight missile have a short fuse and, depending on distance of course, they might not hit Samus back if you reflect them because they'll just blow up in midair.
So you want to reflect mostly fire straight missiles and ice homing missiles.
I'm still figuring out that matchup but I think I'm making progress. It's mostly her zair, down B and upB oos which are giving me trouble. Ctilt is infuriating too but I can just ftilt it if I see it coming.
There are four types of missiles because of the fire/ice forms, and the missiles you want to perfect shield (reflect) swap depending on the transformation she's using : her fire homing missile and her ice straight missile have a short fuse and, depending on distance of course, they might not hit Samus back if you reflect them because they'll just blow up in midair.
So you want to reflect mostly fire straight missiles and ice homing missiles.
I'm still figuring out that matchup but I think I'm making progress. It's mostly her zair, down B and upB oos which are giving me trouble. Ctilt is infuriating too but I can just ftilt it if I see it coming.
BertEast
Smash Apprentice
Her edgeguards can be pretty cruel. How do I recover against her?
pinkdeaf1
Smash Ace
Unless Samus goes offstage for you, go low. Otherwise, go high.
Also, DK can juggle Samus easily, giving her a hard time coming down. Platforms and small stages help DK moreso than Samus.
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
I would avoid going low most of the times because she can easily dair you to your death if you do. I'd say that's true in almost all matchups against a character with a meteor or spike as DK
AkashicSword
Yokai
Alright folks. I was too lazy to see how much of the Mewtwo match-up was on here, so I'm gonna copy paste something I posted elsewhere here. (Since it's the best place for it)
Note: This far from comprehensive, but it's a good starting point to learn the matchup.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
VS. Mewtwo:
Pros: DK can punish Up-B incredibly well, and has the power to put an early end to Mewtwo. Plus, while Mewtwo is floaty, he's still medium weight, giving your throw combos excellent potency in the match-up.
Cons: Mewtwo can simply outspace DK with relative ease. A wise Mewtwo will not warp spam against a DK who can punish it, they will resort to a defensive game to get you to approach carelessly, and safely build damage with his tail. DK's size makes him incredibly vulnerable to F-Air, and Mewtwo can warp above DK's recovery for an easy Meteor punish.
How I feel the match-up slides: Personally, this tends to be in DK's favor. However, I will write like you're fighting more competent foes, the kind that can still make this their match-up. For an overall scale, I feel 65-35 DK's favor.
Defense is much more important in this fight, so I'll discuss that first.
Defense: Climbing the "Warp"ed Wall.
Mewtwo has a very fast and very high pressure offensive game. With good space on aerials and good frame data, defending against Mewtwo requires thought and patience.
Step One: Stay Grounded during Neutral game.
I cannot stress that enough, the ability to simply guard Mewtwo's aerial approaches is devastating to the pressure which he can apply. It forces him to go for a warp side B- approach, or to back off and try to apply pressure with Shadow Ball before warping.
The shadow ball warp approach becomes easy to read once you've seen it a few times, and running in and power shielding it usually throws off Mewtwo's approach in one of two ways.
Scenario One: SB hits Mewtwo.
What are you waiting for? Now's your chance! Go for dash attack, or if time permits, grab him, and let the fun begin.
Scenario Two: SB misses, and Mewtwo warps.
If you ran toward Mewtwo and power-shielded, it's more than likely you ran past his intended warp point, watch out for a b-air from warp. When he misses an aerial and has to land from float, go for a punish. (I'll describe best practices for that later)
Countering basic warp approach
Mewtwo's bread and butter. Warping is a devious, yet, simple approach in Mewtwo's arsenal. In most cases: A better Mewtwo, even if he doesn't warp straight at you, will come out swinging IMMEDIATELY. Mewtwo's learn to throw out hitboxes to protect themselves from being punished whilst warping. It's good Mewtwo practice, but DK has ways to cope.
Imagine this scenario:
Mewtwo warps. He was too far away in front of you to warp behind you, and you're at relatively low percent for F-air kill. This means he'll probably warp above, and falling N-Air. Remember, unless Mewtwo aims for the ground, he has to travel the full distance of his warp in the direction he choses. So with some practice, you know exactly where he'll end up. If he goes for the overhead, simply jump so you're overlapping where he'll spawn, and make him eat a Nair. Sure, you'll probably trade. But your Nair vs a hit of his Nair is a great trade. If you want a more combo set-up options, try learning how to punish with Up-Air. It's more precise on the spacing, (since trading will nullify the use of a combo set up move like Up-air, leaving Nair as the better option if you're not sure of yourself) but hitting it without trading leads to follow up potential.
Now look at this scenario:
Mewtwo warps. He made a note of getting closer before he did, and once again, he can't shorten the distance of warp unless he lands (which has lag) so he's probably trying to get behind you for one of two approaches.
A: He wants a few quick hits, and doesn't know how much you like to guard yet. So he will probably B-Air wall. Power shield one, and you can jump out of shield Bair to punish in between two of his Bair's (takes some practice, but not too hard)
B: He's aware you might be expecting Bair, and knows you know how to defend yourself, expect a side B from behind. Harder to dodge, but it's simple really. Simply walk forward, and whilst in his animation (which has some vulnerability) jump Bair. (You have to lean into this a little, because Side B has pushboxes)
For both, don't stop there. L_cancel, and make him keep eating your own B-Air wall. A good sour spot bair can set up for a grab, but it's more technical.
Final Scenario.
Mewtwo warps, and you're at high percent. He's the same space from the first scenario, so no flanking you. He'll try two things.
First: A direct frontal assault. He'll come at you at ground level (not touching though) and F-air. You want to shield this approach if you know it's coming. Harder to punish, since a good Mewtwo will retreat Fair in order to prevent a punish. DK has a harder time air punishing right in front of him, especially in the time provided. Also, if you don't power shield, you'll be in stun too long to punish this option if they retreat. The plan is to be patient. Wait for them to get too ambitious. If they flank you with another warp after the first fails, you know how to punish already. (Once again, harder to punish Fair, but much more punishable if they come from behind) Note: If you see this approach coming, you can try turning around and shielding it, so your back is to Mewtwo. Giving Bair a time to shine. Also, if they fair and don't retreat. Make the sonuva' gun eat a Nair. Chicks dig Nair.
Second: He may try to come from above and Dair to pop you up. Like the Fair approach, this can be done in retreat, but the cool down if Mewtwo stays in the air is long enough that either Nair, UAir, or Bair will punish. (depending on how Mewtwo retreats) As always, shielding is excellent to block. Counter however you see fit.
"But Akashic! I missed the punish! Now what?!"
Step One: Don't panic. Remember? He has to land. A good Mewtwo will always get his L-cancel while landing, so he won't be vulnerable long, but he will be vulnerable. If he's retreating before landing, approach with a walk, and F-tilt the landing. (This is the safest way, you can get creative after you learn to punish it more consistently) If he gets ambitious, he'll probably, follow-up whatever approach with Nair. Fun Fact: The shield lag on Nair is negligible. Punishing afterwards is an option. (Or, if you want "shock" value you can grab between the hits on Nair, it's hard, but possible)
"What if I miss all the chances to punish!?"
Stay clam. If you're confident in your spacing, close the gap and keep him in range. (Watch for grab here) If you're not feeling so bold, retreat with wavedash (a roll could suffice, I do so a lot) And wait for him to try again.
Moving on:
Air defense: Surviving the onslaught
Bad news: Mewtwo outsmarted you. Maybe he used Side B, and you ended up above him. Worse case scenario, he's gonna give build up percentage, and rising Fair you. But only if you panic. Remember, in the air, you are most vulnerable to being juggled by Mewtwo from his behind (Bair) and from his front diagonal (UAir). He can get you from his direct front (Fair) but it has much less range. The tl;dr of defense here, is to watch these key areas and avoid them in falling, but I will go into some detail ahead if you want.
Directly above Mewtwo: Tl;dr Dair
Mewtwo will go for U-Air, this much is obvious. If you have enough space between the two of you, a dair can end his combo ambitions, even with a trade. You can air dodge through him if you feel fancy, and fast fall to ground. If you can get to his front-side. (Note this applies to EVERY air scenario with this opponent) NAir or Bair depending on what side is facing him.
Behind Mewtwo: The worst nightmare. tl;dr Bair, Nair, Up-B dodge
Mewtwo's Bair will end you if you can't dodge it. Your best bet is if you know you can't dodge, go for a trade. Nair works with timing. And Bair rivals it's range well. You can also Up-B THROUGH him if you feel lucky. (This also racks on some nice damage, good for you) Remember, once you break the juggle, return to earth ASAP
General Practice in the Air: Up-B: The secret trump card.
Regardless where you end up, Up-B is usually a solid option to escape. It's got faster horizontal movement than Mewtwo so it can juke him. It's got solid frame data, so you can also challenge him with it. (Mentioned above)
Final Note about Aerial Mewtwo: He has to land.
He floats, he doesn't fly. He has to come down at some point. Keep it in mind when determining which option is right for you. Once again, if he warps, he has to travel the full distance in that direction. So go for a juke if he goes to comeback. If you're not in hitstun, throw a Nair like I mentioned earlier in countering warp.
WHEW. Defense in a nutshell there..... Nah, just kidding. I've nearly forgotten the most important part.
Defense against the patience Pokemon: Fighting the tail.
Imagine: You're fighting a battle hardened Mewtwo. He knows you can punish warp with your aerials. So he'll be patient. Knocking you away with his tail and firing shadow balls. What do you do?
The better question is, what can you do? This is where Mewtwo gets his 35 points in this match-up. A good approach here is hard, and it's better to try to debunk all of his crap and wait for an approach of his own. Instead of imagining scenarios, I'll just remind you of some of your weapons.
Dash attack has armor. If you read a tilt, go for it. Worse case scenario: You trade.
Powershielding reflects Shadow Ball. Learn that timing folks. Then follow up.
And that thing you always forget about, Down B. This forces him in the air, and when you're below Mewtwo, you're at the advantage.
RAR Bair is fast, and can punish if he makes a commitment on the ground that keeps him there. It also nullifies poorly charged shadow ball.
There's more, but it this should help get your mind flowing in the right direction. The biggest part about defense in this matchup is being able to play it by ear. (or, in different terms, play it as you go)
Offense: Can't catch pokemon til you weaken them first!
Mewtwo is incredibly weak to DK when Dk is below him. U-Air juggles well. And Grab combos devastate Mewtwo. When you've made Mewtwo go above, switch gears, and go ham.
D-Tilt and Crouch Cancels. Crouch cancelling is vital to fighting Mewtwo on ground. And it can be followed quickly by D-Tilt, which rivals Mewtwo's range. Get in close, crouch the tilt, punish. Watch for grabs here, they'll devastate you.
Up-tilt. Up-tilt is a solid option once Mewtwo is above you. It allows you to stay grounded while juggling him at low percents, and can guard the aerial approaches with ease.
If Mewtwo ever rolls (it does happen) remember that it has WAAAY more distance than most rolls, and he'll probably do this to dodge a tilt and get behind you. Despite it's range, his roll has some bad ending lag, jab or tilt to respond.
Combos: Jab (both hits) into D-tilt hits Mewtwo at fairly early to decently high percent (0-65%) Depending on how he DI's, you can follow with insta Nair, grab, or dash attack.
Forward Cargo throw combo: Even with good DI from about (50-80%) this should land. (For the uninitiated, Grab->Cargo->Jump Forward->Forward Cargo throw->Double Jump-> Fair) At lower percents, you can forgo the double jump and Nair him. If you pull this combo at 80, you can kill Mewtwo on some maps.
Up-Cargo: The bread and butter. Like with most foes, low percent leads to Up-Air juggles. At high percent, you can buffer a Fair from your throw (after a double jump) and land the wild haymaker.
Reverse Cargo throw has some utility, try to follow with up-air or Fair.
If you grab Mewtwo from too high of a percent for combo, you can choose to kill him with back throw, or up-throw him to get stage control.
Aerial Side-B Meteors don't affect Mewtwo much, but can be used if he's going to warp to ledge for a sweetspot. (Only the first time, the warp from ledge to ledge warp has full invincibility, so don't approach)
Giant's Punch: Keep one charged. Once you better read warps, You can punish big time.
DK-cide: Always a punish option that is effective based on the player your facing and less the character. Try to see how much they mash when you grab them before you show this hand to the opponent, since if they mash, they are bound to live (ESPECIALLY Mewtwo) and you're bound to die horribly.
F-Air. This move is excellent for spacing Mewtwo while he's in the air. Like with Giant's Punch, you can use this to punish warp big time once you get a feel for how he warps. This can be used to challenge Mewtwo's juggle too, but usually to less effect.
TL;DR. Block warp stuff, punish it big. Combo the crap out of him when you can. Don't miss opportunities to take stocks. Play patient, and don't forget your whole arsenal.
Note: This far from comprehensive, but it's a good starting point to learn the matchup.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
VS. Mewtwo:
Pros: DK can punish Up-B incredibly well, and has the power to put an early end to Mewtwo. Plus, while Mewtwo is floaty, he's still medium weight, giving your throw combos excellent potency in the match-up.
Cons: Mewtwo can simply outspace DK with relative ease. A wise Mewtwo will not warp spam against a DK who can punish it, they will resort to a defensive game to get you to approach carelessly, and safely build damage with his tail. DK's size makes him incredibly vulnerable to F-Air, and Mewtwo can warp above DK's recovery for an easy Meteor punish.
How I feel the match-up slides: Personally, this tends to be in DK's favor. However, I will write like you're fighting more competent foes, the kind that can still make this their match-up. For an overall scale, I feel 65-35 DK's favor.
Defense is much more important in this fight, so I'll discuss that first.
Defense: Climbing the "Warp"ed Wall.
Mewtwo has a very fast and very high pressure offensive game. With good space on aerials and good frame data, defending against Mewtwo requires thought and patience.
Step One: Stay Grounded during Neutral game.
I cannot stress that enough, the ability to simply guard Mewtwo's aerial approaches is devastating to the pressure which he can apply. It forces him to go for a warp side B- approach, or to back off and try to apply pressure with Shadow Ball before warping.
The shadow ball warp approach becomes easy to read once you've seen it a few times, and running in and power shielding it usually throws off Mewtwo's approach in one of two ways.
Scenario One: SB hits Mewtwo.
What are you waiting for? Now's your chance! Go for dash attack, or if time permits, grab him, and let the fun begin.
Scenario Two: SB misses, and Mewtwo warps.
If you ran toward Mewtwo and power-shielded, it's more than likely you ran past his intended warp point, watch out for a b-air from warp. When he misses an aerial and has to land from float, go for a punish. (I'll describe best practices for that later)
Countering basic warp approach
Mewtwo's bread and butter. Warping is a devious, yet, simple approach in Mewtwo's arsenal. In most cases: A better Mewtwo, even if he doesn't warp straight at you, will come out swinging IMMEDIATELY. Mewtwo's learn to throw out hitboxes to protect themselves from being punished whilst warping. It's good Mewtwo practice, but DK has ways to cope.
Imagine this scenario:
Mewtwo warps. He was too far away in front of you to warp behind you, and you're at relatively low percent for F-air kill. This means he'll probably warp above, and falling N-Air. Remember, unless Mewtwo aims for the ground, he has to travel the full distance of his warp in the direction he choses. So with some practice, you know exactly where he'll end up. If he goes for the overhead, simply jump so you're overlapping where he'll spawn, and make him eat a Nair. Sure, you'll probably trade. But your Nair vs a hit of his Nair is a great trade. If you want a more combo set-up options, try learning how to punish with Up-Air. It's more precise on the spacing, (since trading will nullify the use of a combo set up move like Up-air, leaving Nair as the better option if you're not sure of yourself) but hitting it without trading leads to follow up potential.
Now look at this scenario:
Mewtwo warps. He made a note of getting closer before he did, and once again, he can't shorten the distance of warp unless he lands (which has lag) so he's probably trying to get behind you for one of two approaches.
A: He wants a few quick hits, and doesn't know how much you like to guard yet. So he will probably B-Air wall. Power shield one, and you can jump out of shield Bair to punish in between two of his Bair's (takes some practice, but not too hard)
B: He's aware you might be expecting Bair, and knows you know how to defend yourself, expect a side B from behind. Harder to dodge, but it's simple really. Simply walk forward, and whilst in his animation (which has some vulnerability) jump Bair. (You have to lean into this a little, because Side B has pushboxes)
For both, don't stop there. L_cancel, and make him keep eating your own B-Air wall. A good sour spot bair can set up for a grab, but it's more technical.
Final Scenario.
Mewtwo warps, and you're at high percent. He's the same space from the first scenario, so no flanking you. He'll try two things.
First: A direct frontal assault. He'll come at you at ground level (not touching though) and F-air. You want to shield this approach if you know it's coming. Harder to punish, since a good Mewtwo will retreat Fair in order to prevent a punish. DK has a harder time air punishing right in front of him, especially in the time provided. Also, if you don't power shield, you'll be in stun too long to punish this option if they retreat. The plan is to be patient. Wait for them to get too ambitious. If they flank you with another warp after the first fails, you know how to punish already. (Once again, harder to punish Fair, but much more punishable if they come from behind) Note: If you see this approach coming, you can try turning around and shielding it, so your back is to Mewtwo. Giving Bair a time to shine. Also, if they fair and don't retreat. Make the sonuva' gun eat a Nair. Chicks dig Nair.
Second: He may try to come from above and Dair to pop you up. Like the Fair approach, this can be done in retreat, but the cool down if Mewtwo stays in the air is long enough that either Nair, UAir, or Bair will punish. (depending on how Mewtwo retreats) As always, shielding is excellent to block. Counter however you see fit.
"But Akashic! I missed the punish! Now what?!"
Step One: Don't panic. Remember? He has to land. A good Mewtwo will always get his L-cancel while landing, so he won't be vulnerable long, but he will be vulnerable. If he's retreating before landing, approach with a walk, and F-tilt the landing. (This is the safest way, you can get creative after you learn to punish it more consistently) If he gets ambitious, he'll probably, follow-up whatever approach with Nair. Fun Fact: The shield lag on Nair is negligible. Punishing afterwards is an option. (Or, if you want "shock" value you can grab between the hits on Nair, it's hard, but possible)
"What if I miss all the chances to punish!?"
Stay clam. If you're confident in your spacing, close the gap and keep him in range. (Watch for grab here) If you're not feeling so bold, retreat with wavedash (a roll could suffice, I do so a lot) And wait for him to try again.
Moving on:
Air defense: Surviving the onslaught
Bad news: Mewtwo outsmarted you. Maybe he used Side B, and you ended up above him. Worse case scenario, he's gonna give build up percentage, and rising Fair you. But only if you panic. Remember, in the air, you are most vulnerable to being juggled by Mewtwo from his behind (Bair) and from his front diagonal (UAir). He can get you from his direct front (Fair) but it has much less range. The tl;dr of defense here, is to watch these key areas and avoid them in falling, but I will go into some detail ahead if you want.
Directly above Mewtwo: Tl;dr Dair
Mewtwo will go for U-Air, this much is obvious. If you have enough space between the two of you, a dair can end his combo ambitions, even with a trade. You can air dodge through him if you feel fancy, and fast fall to ground. If you can get to his front-side. (Note this applies to EVERY air scenario with this opponent) NAir or Bair depending on what side is facing him.
Behind Mewtwo: The worst nightmare. tl;dr Bair, Nair, Up-B dodge
Mewtwo's Bair will end you if you can't dodge it. Your best bet is if you know you can't dodge, go for a trade. Nair works with timing. And Bair rivals it's range well. You can also Up-B THROUGH him if you feel lucky. (This also racks on some nice damage, good for you) Remember, once you break the juggle, return to earth ASAP
General Practice in the Air: Up-B: The secret trump card.
Regardless where you end up, Up-B is usually a solid option to escape. It's got faster horizontal movement than Mewtwo so it can juke him. It's got solid frame data, so you can also challenge him with it. (Mentioned above)
Final Note about Aerial Mewtwo: He has to land.
He floats, he doesn't fly. He has to come down at some point. Keep it in mind when determining which option is right for you. Once again, if he warps, he has to travel the full distance in that direction. So go for a juke if he goes to comeback. If you're not in hitstun, throw a Nair like I mentioned earlier in countering warp.
WHEW. Defense in a nutshell there..... Nah, just kidding. I've nearly forgotten the most important part.
Defense against the patience Pokemon: Fighting the tail.
Imagine: You're fighting a battle hardened Mewtwo. He knows you can punish warp with your aerials. So he'll be patient. Knocking you away with his tail and firing shadow balls. What do you do?
The better question is, what can you do? This is where Mewtwo gets his 35 points in this match-up. A good approach here is hard, and it's better to try to debunk all of his crap and wait for an approach of his own. Instead of imagining scenarios, I'll just remind you of some of your weapons.
Dash attack has armor. If you read a tilt, go for it. Worse case scenario: You trade.
Powershielding reflects Shadow Ball. Learn that timing folks. Then follow up.
And that thing you always forget about, Down B. This forces him in the air, and when you're below Mewtwo, you're at the advantage.
RAR Bair is fast, and can punish if he makes a commitment on the ground that keeps him there. It also nullifies poorly charged shadow ball.
There's more, but it this should help get your mind flowing in the right direction. The biggest part about defense in this matchup is being able to play it by ear. (or, in different terms, play it as you go)
Offense: Can't catch pokemon til you weaken them first!
Mewtwo is incredibly weak to DK when Dk is below him. U-Air juggles well. And Grab combos devastate Mewtwo. When you've made Mewtwo go above, switch gears, and go ham.
D-Tilt and Crouch Cancels. Crouch cancelling is vital to fighting Mewtwo on ground. And it can be followed quickly by D-Tilt, which rivals Mewtwo's range. Get in close, crouch the tilt, punish. Watch for grabs here, they'll devastate you.
Up-tilt. Up-tilt is a solid option once Mewtwo is above you. It allows you to stay grounded while juggling him at low percents, and can guard the aerial approaches with ease.
If Mewtwo ever rolls (it does happen) remember that it has WAAAY more distance than most rolls, and he'll probably do this to dodge a tilt and get behind you. Despite it's range, his roll has some bad ending lag, jab or tilt to respond.
Combos: Jab (both hits) into D-tilt hits Mewtwo at fairly early to decently high percent (0-65%) Depending on how he DI's, you can follow with insta Nair, grab, or dash attack.
Forward Cargo throw combo: Even with good DI from about (50-80%) this should land. (For the uninitiated, Grab->Cargo->Jump Forward->Forward Cargo throw->Double Jump-> Fair) At lower percents, you can forgo the double jump and Nair him. If you pull this combo at 80, you can kill Mewtwo on some maps.
Up-Cargo: The bread and butter. Like with most foes, low percent leads to Up-Air juggles. At high percent, you can buffer a Fair from your throw (after a double jump) and land the wild haymaker.
Reverse Cargo throw has some utility, try to follow with up-air or Fair.
If you grab Mewtwo from too high of a percent for combo, you can choose to kill him with back throw, or up-throw him to get stage control.
Aerial Side-B Meteors don't affect Mewtwo much, but can be used if he's going to warp to ledge for a sweetspot. (Only the first time, the warp from ledge to ledge warp has full invincibility, so don't approach)
Giant's Punch: Keep one charged. Once you better read warps, You can punish big time.
DK-cide: Always a punish option that is effective based on the player your facing and less the character. Try to see how much they mash when you grab them before you show this hand to the opponent, since if they mash, they are bound to live (ESPECIALLY Mewtwo) and you're bound to die horribly.
F-Air. This move is excellent for spacing Mewtwo while he's in the air. Like with Giant's Punch, you can use this to punish warp big time once you get a feel for how he warps. This can be used to challenge Mewtwo's juggle too, but usually to less effect.
TL;DR. Block warp stuff, punish it big. Combo the crap out of him when you can. Don't miss opportunities to take stocks. Play patient, and don't forget your whole arsenal.
Child Star
Smash Ace
How is DK in the Ivysaur matchup. I think a lot of people remember strongbads match against Denti in Shuffle V (i think) it seems like it gave him signifigant trouble, has anyone developed a solid strat against it so far?
Edit: rewatching the matchup, i think it was mostly the second round that he was having trouble he had a really nice comeback round one.
Edit: rewatching the matchup, i think it was mostly the second round that he was having trouble he had a really nice comeback round one.
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Child Star
Smash Ace
Hey, sorry for not looking more thouroughly, some of the matchups were empty so i assumed it was a work in progress. There is a lot of info on ivysaur and i appreciate the effort put into researching the matchup. Ill continue reading and it will help my MU experience by a large amount against my least favourite MU.
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Yup, Ivysaur definitely wins that matchup. She's floaty so she doesn't get hit by most of DK's combos, she is one of the strongest edgeguarders in the game, DK is big so he's more vulnerable to her projectile and her kill combos, and he gets severely outcamped on most stages.
As a DK and Ivysaur player, I can only wish the best of luck to my fellow DK crewmen in this depressing matchup :C
As a DK and Ivysaur player, I can only wish the best of luck to my fellow DK crewmen in this depressing matchup :C
Child Star
Smash Ace
Do you run Ivysaur mirrors if the opponent plays her?
POOB
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2013
- Messages
- 221
Cmon guys, the matchup really isn't that bad. You just have to outplay your opponent to win, like a matchup SHOULD be. If you just play a patient neutral and have a decent punish game, you will be fine. Ivysaur is actually a great combo weight up to like 60%, where you can start looking for kill setups around then anyway cause shes so damn light
Child Star
Smash Ace
What do you guys think of the Lucas MU? Im having trouble trading in the air against him and his followups to pk ice. Grab game still works for the most part, but i find it daunting to approach, when i do approach my neutral game works out if im not overly dashing in. I cant speak to the skill of the Lucas im playing against, but thats my first impression of tge MU.
Planet Piss
Smash Journeyman
Might just be me, but I'd say DK wins it fairly well.
For starters, Lucas is the easiest character for DK to not only combo, but combo to kill. Uair, utilt (especially that one), cargo uthrow are almost inescapable for Lucas. Characters like Fox and even Falcon (and MK to some extent) tend to fall too fast to combo on reaction, and Hylian weights like Sheik and Link are heavy enough to withstand regular zero-deaths.
Lucas is light enough for random nair/up+b mixups to kill very reliably, and if nair is DI'd upwards, it's an automatic KO follow-up. He also falls fast enough for guaranteed 'up' combos to work until GP or fair weill finish him from center stage.
In the case of edgeguarding, DK's up+b spin animation (not necessarily the startup hitbox but the mid-air spinning animation) completely stuffs Ropesnake. Well-spaced nair beats magnet, and RAR bair offstage assault, as a mix-up, works insanely well when timed to go in between the magnets. His up+b is a joke if you don't get overzealous and consequently zapped.
As far as defensive game goes, you should not have to trade in the air. Instead, look out for the PK Freeze. Specifically, do any and all of the following:
-Powershield it. Not that hard to powershield stuff, especially if you, as DK, do a running shield. It will take a bit of practice but it's almost imperative.
-Hang out on platforms and get openings by dairing him if he tries to come and get you. Personally, I like to shield drop bair/uair all the time, because it's a technique that literally opens up guaranteed death combos from a defensive state.
-Trade the projectile with a ground move like dtilt.
Speaking of Dtilt, that move is invaluable in neutral. If you are arm's length away from Lucas and pressuring him with ground moves, he can't do anything but try to escape. DK's biggest strength in this MU is the spacing, and once you have solid ground-based neutral down, you can proceed to learn how to carry a single weak (or strong) bair, dtilt, or jab sequence into death.
Some things to watch out for:
-Going offstage. He's going to try to spike you and it won't be hard for him and you'll die at zero percent sometimes. Only go offstage when you read what his next option is. Similar to this, mix-up your recovery. Know where Lucas's bair spike hitbox is and avoid it at all costs. If you know you're going to get hit, press into him to aim for the non-spike bair or (either) sourspot. Dair is much easier to avoid.
-Be patient with his dair combos. Don't spam the tech button because it won't work. Wait until he's comitted to dair and tech to a direction of your choosing. Preferably, don't tech in place because Lucas can punish it on accident.
-Getting grabbed. Bait the grab if possible, but DI'ing away (behind him), to my knowledge, eliminates guaranteed follow-ups after Dthrow.
Additional note:
Shield grab him when you can. Lucas has to be COMPLETELY on point to avoid shieldgrabs from DK. Be smart and don't grab when he's fading back or crossing up (going behind you). He'll get worn out eventually due to how much work he has to do compared with the loss in momentum he experiences when getting combo'd all day.
Lucas is definitely not the most easy for dk to combo. He can combo break with his neutral B if he's already got a charge. It really couters his main weakness in this matchup, which is being a fastfaller that has to fight a DK.
Other than that I agree with what you've said. But Lucas's neutral B makes the matchup go from nearly 5-5 to a solid 4-6 imo.
Other than that I agree with what you've said. But Lucas's neutral B makes the matchup go from nearly 5-5 to a solid 4-6 imo.
POOB
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2013
- Messages
- 221
Well DK's combos on lucas, just like pretty much every other character, are guaranteed. Therefore, he should still be in hitstun throughout your combo. If he down b's you, it means you are too slow and allowing him to get out of hitstun. So planet piss is right. Also, to add on to what he said, nair is a great approach to stuff pk freeze and get in his face, and bair is great to stuff pk freeze while zoning
Hi, ive been playing PM since april. Maining DK and i have a big problems against ZSS. Can someone explain the MU to me? what works effectively, what types of punishes should i be looking for, and what kind of stages do i take her to, small-medium size stages?
Also, what should i be doing vs ROB? i feel like he edge guards me way to easily and im always unsure on what to do.
Also, what should i be doing vs ROB? i feel like he edge guards me way to easily and im always unsure on what to do.
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