BertEast
Smash Apprentice
He's the leader of the bunch, you know him well, he's finally back, to kick some tail!
Donkey Kong may not have his coconut guns(which fire in spurts), but that doesn't stop this Ape from being a worthy contender in Project M.
Here are a list of the contenders and a way to deal with them.
Most recent update:
Added advice to the Lucas section
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The Mushroom Kingdom Presents...
[collapse=Wario][/collapse]
[collapse=Mario]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc9gM8vPFlo Strong Bad vs. Pikachad @ The Big House 3 (PM2.6 The Kong at 8:44)[/collapse]
[collapse=Luigi][/collapse]
[collapse=Peach][/collapse]
[collapse=Bowser]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCxuKCz7X4Y Eli vs. Yunque Apex 2014[/collapse]
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Donkey Kong's Country
[collapse=Donkey Kong][/collapse]
[collapse=Diddy Kong]Thanks to Jechtire, POOB, and Teneban there is a lot of information regarding this matchup.
Jechtire said:
Played a Diddy named Tweak recently, and here were my findings:
- Nair is your strongest asset here, it beats out a lot of his moves and it stops bananas.
- Keep the pressure on, Diddy rolls all over DK if you let him set up.
- This is just a general Diddy tip, but if you have the chance to grab his banana, do it. You turn his biggest strength against him once you grab both his bananas. I like to throw his bananas upwards so it takes a bit before he has a chance to grab it back.
- Another tip, when you notice the Diddy you are fighting isn't trying to sweetspot, predict his end point. You can punish Diddy extremely hard with something like Cargo Throw Up > Fair.
My awful advice said:
DK's good range and grab combo's can be hard for Diddy to get by, as well as DK's good CC game.
Offstage, DK can't do much to defend himself, and I recommend recovering high if possible
POOB said:
Everything you said here is very true. I'll throw my 2 cents in as well for this matchup and our 2 posts combined should be enough info for the diddy spoiler
When I played Ninjalink's Diddy at Sktar, I did what you said about keeping the pressure on, but I did it in bursts. It was on FD, and Diddy's projectiles, when far enough, can't hit me when I full jump unless he gets closer. So, I would just jump around and charge my punch in neutral while he camped. This killed 2 birds with 1 stone. First, I prioritized having my punch charged in this matchup because cargo u throw to Giant Punch is so free against Diddy Kong and it is a complete momentum changer (to add on to what you said about punishing with cargo u throw to fair) and can kill easily.
The second reason this worked is a little harder to explain, but I feel it is an interesting thing to keep in mind so I will take the time to explain it clearly. Slowly charging your punch while moving around, maybe 1-3 swings at a time, Can have multiple psychological effects on your opponent. Which effect it will have solely depends on how your opponent plays. The reason it worked on Ninjalink, was because he started off the match spamming projectiles like crazy the moment the match started, and that is an extremely effective strategy V.S. DK. When I took my time charging my punch and dodged everything he threw at me without racking up any %, it gave him the feeling that his strategy wasn't working so I noticed he spammed less and instead tried to dash dance around while holding a banana to try to bait me another way. Whereas, if he continued to spam the way he originally did once I finished charging my punch, it would have worked much better. Another thing it may do, but unlikely v.s. a smart Diddy, is make them want to approach and hit you cause they don't want you to charge the punch. Lastly, Dk is simply scarier with a charged punch and can apply more pressure.
When trying to get in, I found going in and out with full hops to be most effective since dash dancing will just get you hit with bananas. Once he throws them at me and I notice he has no banana in his hand and they are below me, for example, I go in. But don't go in blindly v.s. Diddy because he has great dash dance speed. Always try to read his retreat or jump and run an extra quarter second or so before doing that shffl nair or grab.(just an example for punishing a predictable retreat)
Once you get that first hit, is when DK shines in this matchup, like many of his matchups. DK can combo diddy like crazy. Besides spacies, Diddy is arguably the next easiest character to u-air juggle with DK. This and the fact that full hop cargo u throw to fair/DK punch works at such a wide percent range are two reasons diddy could easily be in a death situation from one of DK's grabs or solid approaches.
Lastly, Jechtire is completely right about grabbing bananas. The combos and follow ups that DK can do with bananas are absurd. Most important to keep in mind is tech chasing with bananas and ground pound. At low % you can tech chase brutally, and at high percent you can kill with u smash or Giant punch after ground pound. Experiment yourself to find out what else he can do with bananas!
And that's how I beat ninjalink, despite this supposedly being an awful matchup for DK, which I now think is about even. Also, no disrespect towards Ninjalink. This post is strictly for learning and sharing purposes. In his defense, I don't think there are any relevant DK's in his region and he likely did not know the matchup at all.
Teneban said:
On the topic of Diddy :
Here are some ways to counter a banana
-avoiding it. Pro : very little risk. Con : you lose some stage control
-shielding it and then catching it in midair. (the banana bounces pff of your shield vertically, you just jump out of shield and catch it with Z, a nair, a bair or an uair depending on the situation) Pro : gets you the banana. Con : if the diddy is near enough, he can punish you for trying this.
-perfect shielding it. Pro : immediate retaliation. Con : slightly more technically demanding, especially since this is only useful at close range. If it fails, you can still catch it after it bounces
-clanking with it. Pro : looks good. Con : extremely difficult. You can only clank it with a disjointed move, like nair or ftilt. The banana still isn't yours after a clank.
-catching it (with a wavedash or a jab). Pro : pisses the diddy off. Con : as difficult as powershielding, except you won't get to use it in many other matchups.
-instant-toss it (do the same motion as the air glide toss as you're about to get hit by a banana in midair). Pro : can help you recover. Con : again, needs a bit of training.
What you can do with a banana :
-a glide toss towards your opponent. Pro : covers a lot of distance. Con : extremzly telegraphed. (back glide toss and forward glide toss have different glide lengths)
-an air glide toss. Pro : more versatile than a grounded glide toss.
-use B moves. Pro : keeps control of the banana longer. Con : DK's b moves aren't spammable
-toss it upwards. Pro : leaves it out of Diddy's reach for a while, especially if it lands on a high platform. Con : you aren't using it
-toss it downwards (while in the air). Pro : gpod shield pressure. Con : can be usmash oos'd
-ground footstool-air glide toss downwards. Pro : very good shield pressure. Con : I doubt many of you have a footstool button mapping since DK doesn't naturally profit from it.
-z-drop it. Pro : you can catch it with an aerial or just use it for shield pressure. Con : you're not using the banana's speed so much.
-do an fsmash (hold A during a wavedash, press the c stick, release A). Pro : not many people know about it. Con : situationnal.
That's all I got :3
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Lylat Voyagers
[collapse=Wolf]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_hXKfiFQlE Strong Bad vs Rat NERD RAGE (PM2.6)[/collapse]
[collapse=Fox][/collapse]
[collapse=Falco]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DtzIF7zyOA Strong Bad vs. SFAT The Big House 3 (3:44 The Kong appears)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn50AQsYPGA Poob vs. Young Justice Smashing Grounds. Keep notice on the upthrow combos and the ground pound. 3:48 for Flaco[/collapse]
The Pokemon Center
[collapse=Mewtwo]Pros: DK can punish Up-B incredibly well, and has the power to put an early end to Mewtwo. Plus, while Mewtwo is floaty, he's still medium weight, giving your throw combos excellent potency in the match-up.
Cons: Mewtwo can simply outspace DK with relative ease. A wise Mewtwo will not warp spam against a DK who can punish it, they will resort to a defensive game to get you to approach carelessly, and safely build damage with his tail. DK's size makes him incredibly vulnerable to F-Air, and Mewtwo can warp above DK's recovery for an easy Meteor punish.
How I feel the match-up slides: Personally, this tends to be in DK's favor. However, I will write like you're fighting more competent foes, the kind that can still make this their match-up. For an overall scale, I feel 65-35 DK's favor.
Defense is much more important in this fight, so I'll discuss that first.
Defense: Climbing the "Warp"ed Wall.
Mewtwo has a very fast and very high pressure offensive game. With good space on aerials and good frame data, defending against Mewtwo requires thought and patience.
Step One: Stay Grounded during Neutral game.
I cannot stress that enough, the ability to simply guard Mewtwo's aerial approaches is devastating to the pressure which he can apply. It forces him to go for a warp side B- approach, or to back off and try to apply pressure with Shadow Ball before warping.
The shadow ball warp approach becomes easy to read once you've seen it a few times, and running in and power shielding it usually throws off Mewtwo's approach in one of two ways.
Scenario One: SB hits Mewtwo.
What are you waiting for? Now's your chance! Go for dash attack, or if time permits, grab him, and let the fun begin.
Scenario Two: SB misses, and Mewtwo warps.
If you ran toward Mewtwo and power-shielded, it's more than likely you ran past his intended warp point, watch out for a b-air from warp. When he misses an aerial and has to land from float, go for a punish. (I'll describe best practices for that later)
Countering basic warp approach
Mewtwo's bread and butter. Warping is a devious, yet, simple approach in Mewtwo's arsenal. In most cases: A better Mewtwo, even if he doesn't warp straight at you, will come out swinging IMMEDIATELY. Mewtwo's learn to throw out hitboxes to protect themselves from being punished whilst warping. It's good Mewtwo practice, but DK has ways to cope.
Imagine this scenario:
Mewtwo warps. He was too far away in front of you to warp behind you, and you're at relatively low percent for F-air kill. This means he'll probably warp above, and falling N-Air. Remember, unless Mewtwo aims for the ground, he has to travel the full distance of his warp in the direction he choses. So with some practice, you know exactly where he'll end up. If he goes for the overhead, simply jump so you're overlapping where he'll spawn, and make him eat a Nair. Sure, you'll probably trade. But your Nair vs a hit of his Nair is a great trade. If you want a more combo set-up options, try learning how to punish with Up-Air. It's more precise on the spacing, (since trading will nullify the use of a combo set up move like Up-air, leaving Nair as the better option if you're not sure of yourself) but hitting it without trading leads to follow up potential.
Now look at this scenario:
Mewtwo warps. He made a note of getting closer before he did, and once again, he can't shorten the distance of warp unless he lands (which has lag) so he's probably trying to get behind you for one of two approaches.
A: He wants a few quick hits, and doesn't know how much you like to guard yet. So he will probably B-Air wall. Power shield one, and you can jump out of shield Bair to punish in between two of his Bair's (takes some practice, but not too hard)
B: He's aware you might be expecting Bair, and knows you know how to defend yourself, expect a side B from behind. Harder to dodge, but it's simple really. Simply walk forward, and whilst in his animation (which has some vulnerability) jump Bair. (You have to lean into this a little, because Side B has pushboxes)
For both, don't stop there. L_cancel, and make him keep eating your own B-Air wall. A good sour spot bair can set up for a grab, but it's more technical.
Final Scenario.
Mewtwo warps, and you're at high percent. He's the same space from the first scenario, so no flanking you. He'll try two things.
First: A direct frontal assault. He'll come at you at ground level (not touching though) and F-air. You want to shield this approach if you know it's coming. Harder to punish, since a good Mewtwo will retreat Fair in order to prevent a punish. DK has a harder time air punishing right in front of him, especially in the time provided. Also, if you don't power shield, you'll be in stun too long to punish this option if they retreat. The plan is to be patient. Wait for them to get too ambitious. If they flank you with another warp after the first fails, you know how to punish already. (Once again, harder to punish Fair, but much more punishable if they come from behind) Note: If you see this approach coming, you can try turning around and shielding it, so your back is to Mewtwo. Giving Bair a time to shine. Also, if they fair and don't retreat. Make the sonuva' gun eat a Nair. Chicks dig Nair.
Second: He may try to come from above and Dair to pop you up. Like the Fair approach, this can be done in retreat, but the cool down if Mewtwo stays in the air is long enough that either Nair, UAir, or Bair will punish. (depending on how Mewtwo retreats) As always, shielding is excellent to block. Counter however you see fit.
"But Akashic! I missed the punish! Now what?!"
Step One: Don't panic. Remember? He has to land. A good Mewtwo will always get his L-cancel while landing, so he won't be vulnerable long, but he will be vulnerable. If he's retreating before landing, approach with a walk, and F-tilt the landing. (This is the safest way, you can get creative after you learn to punish it more consistently) If he gets ambitious, he'll probably, follow-up whatever approach with Nair. Fun Fact: The shield lag on Nair is negligible. Punishing afterwards is an option. (Or, if you want "shock" value you can grab between the hits on Nair, it's hard, but possible)
"What if I miss all the chances to punish!?"
Stay clam. If you're confident in your spacing, close the gap and keep him in range. (Watch for grab here) If you're not feeling so bold, retreat with wavedash (a roll could suffice, I do so a lot) And wait for him to try again.
Moving on:
Air defense: Surviving the onslaught
Bad news: Mewtwo outsmarted you. Maybe he used Side B, and you ended up above him. Worse case scenario, he's gonna give build up percentage, and rising Fair you. But only if you panic. Remember, in the air, you are most vulnerable to being juggled by Mewtwo from his behind (Bair) and from his front diagonal (UAir). He can get you from his direct front (Fair) but it has much less range. The tl;dr of defense here, is to watch these key areas and avoid them in falling, but I will go into some detail ahead if you want.
Directly above Mewtwo: Tl;dr Dair
Mewtwo will go for U-Air, this much is obvious. If you have enough space between the two of you, a dair can end his combo ambitions, even with a trade. You can air dodge through him if you feel fancy, and fast fall to ground. If you can get to his front-side. (Note this applies to EVERY air scenario with this opponent) NAir or Bair depending on what side is facing him.
Behind Mewtwo: The worst nightmare. tl;dr Bair, Nair, Up-B dodge
Mewtwo's Bair will end you if you can't dodge it. Your best bet is if you know you can't dodge, go for a trade. Nair works with timing. And Bair rivals it's range well. You can also Up-B THROUGH him if you feel lucky. (This also racks on some nice damage, good for you) Remember, once you break the juggle, return to earth ASAP
General Practice in the Air: Up-B: The secret trump card.
Regardless where you end up, Up-B is usually a solid option to escape. It's got faster horizontal movement than Mewtwo so it can juke him. It's got solid frame data, so you can also challenge him with it. (Mentioned above)
Final Note about Aerial Mewtwo: He has to land.
He floats, he doesn't fly. He has to come down at some point. Keep it in mind when determining which option is right for you. Once again, if he warps, he has to travel the full distance in that direction. So go for a juke if he goes to comeback. If you're not in hitstun, throw a Nair like I mentioned earlier in countering warp.
WHEW. Defense in a nutshell there..... Nah, just kidding. I've nearly forgotten the most important part.
Defense against the patience Pokemon: Fighting the tail.
Imagine: You're fighting a battle hardened Mewtwo. He knows you can punish warp with your aerials. So he'll be patient. Knocking you away with his tail and firing shadow balls. What do you do?
The better question is, what can you do? This is where Mewtwo gets his 35 points in this match-up. A good approach here is hard, and it's better to try to debunk all of his crap and wait for an approach of his own. Instead of imagining scenarios, I'll just remind you of some of your weapons.
Dash attack has armor. If you read a tilt, go for it. Worse case scenario: You trade.
Powershielding reflects Shadow Ball. Learn that timing folks. Then follow up.
And that thing you always forget about, Down B. This forces him in the air, and when you're below Mewtwo, you're at the advantage.
RAR Bair is fast, and can punish if he makes a commitment on the ground that keeps him there. It also nullifies poorly charged shadow ball.
There's more, but it this should help get your mind flowing in the right direction. The biggest part about defense in this matchup is being able to play it by ear. (or, in different terms, play it as you go)
Offense: Can't catch pokemon til you weaken them first!
Mewtwo is incredibly weak to DK when Dk is below him. U-Air juggles well. And Grab combos devastate Mewtwo. When you've made Mewtwo go above, switch gears, and go ham.
D-Tilt and Crouch Cancels. Crouch cancelling is vital to fighting Mewtwo on ground. And it can be followed quickly by D-Tilt, which rivals Mewtwo's range. Get in close, crouch the tilt, punish. Watch for grabs here, they'll devastate you.
Up-tilt. Up-tilt is a solid option once Mewtwo is above you. It allows you to stay grounded while juggling him at low percents, and can guard the aerial approaches with ease.
If Mewtwo ever rolls (it does happen) remember that it has WAAAY more distance than most rolls, and he'll probably do this to dodge a tilt and get behind you. Despite it's range, his roll has some bad ending lag, jab or tilt to respond.
Combos: Jab (both hits) into D-tilt hits Mewtwo at fairly early to decently high percent (0-65%) Depending on how he DI's, you can follow with insta Nair, grab, or dash attack.
Forward Cargo throw combo: Even with good DI from about (50-80%) this should land. (For the uninitiated, Grab->Cargo->Jump Forward->Forward Cargo throw->Double Jump-> Fair) At lower percents, you can forgo the double jump and Nair him. If you pull this combo at 80, you can kill Mewtwo on some maps.
Up-Cargo: The bread and butter. Like with most foes, low percent leads to Up-Air juggles. At high percent, you can buffer a Fair from your throw (after a double jump) and land the wild haymaker.
Reverse Cargo throw has some utility, try to follow with up-air or Fair.
If you grab Mewtwo from too high of a percent for combo, you can choose to kill him with back throw, or up-throw him to get stage control.
Aerial Side-B Meteors don't affect Mewtwo much, but can be used if he's going to warp to ledge for a sweetspot. (Only the first time, the warp from ledge to ledge warp has full invincibility, so don't approach)
Giant's Punch: Keep one charged. Once you better read warps, You can punish big time.
DK-cide: Always a punish option that is effective based on the player your facing and less the character. Try to see how much they mash when you grab them before you show this hand to the opponent, since if they mash, they are bound to live (ESPECIALLY Mewtwo) and you're bound to die horribly.
F-Air. This move is excellent for spacing Mewtwo while he's in the air. Like with Giant's Punch, you can use this to punish warp big time once you get a feel for how he warps. This can be used to challenge Mewtwo's juggle too, but usually to less effect.
TL;DR. Block warp stuff, punish it big. Combo the crap out of him when you can. Don't miss opportunities to take stocks. Play patient, and don't forget your whole arsenal.[/collapse]
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[collapse=Pikachu][/collapse]
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[collapse=Pichu][/collapse]
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[collapse=Ivysaur]Direct c/p from what Poob said, thanks man!
OK, I'm kinda bored and have nothing to do so I'm gonna post some stuff on the dreaded ivysaur matchup, one of DK's worst matchups according to many. I beat a really good ivysaur in tourney yesterday! I was so happy because it is such a hard matchup, I thought I would need a secondary to win it lol. That's why I'm going to share what I did to try to help other DK's who are struggling v.s. Ivy, and I can reflect on my set as well and maybe learn something myself. I will not write too formally, but it will contain all the facts u need. I just won't take the time to organize it perfectly because it would take awhile.
Anyway, it went to game 3 and all matches were close. I won game 1 on battlefield, lost game 2 on dream land, and won game 3 on skyloft (GREAT counterpick for DK in many matchups by the way). I will go through what I did right and what I did wrong, as well as throw in other things from past experience. So it will basically tell you what to do and what not to do.
Game 1 on battlefield, my overall strategy was to stay back and avoid razor leaf(ivy's side b) until I found an opening. I would run in and out until razor leaf wasn't in the way and I could get a safe approach or punish. Razor leaf isn't much of an issue on battlefield, because you can just jump onto the platform above you and move around that way, trying to bait ivysaur to make a move and then punish.
It's important to be proficient at combos in this matchup since ivysaur will likely outplay you in neutral game, so I will list what worked for me in this matchup combo-wise. I found it relatively easy to combo ivysaur. When I finally got a hit after the patient spacing, it usually resulted in a long string of hits. Down throw works well on ivy at low percents like 0-20 ish, to follow up with another grab, shffl nair, or dash attack depending on DI. (I got him a couple times with down throw around 0%, regrab, cargo back throw quickly to mess up DI, into shffl up air and follow ups after the up air). Don't forget cargo up throw/f throw/b throw to fair, can be done at low % on ivy and still send her far off stage to lead to edgeguarding, which I will talk about next. One thing that helped me a TON, that will now be one of my bread and butter killers on floaty/light characters after being so successful with it yesterday, is standing cargo up throw to full jump/double jump up air when they are above 100%. I killed him three times in our three matches that way, and dream land in game 2 was a great counterpick on his part because it did not work on that stage due to the high ceiling, I should have anticipated that. That combo is good even if it won't kill, just because it is so unbelievably easy and there aren't many other ways to follow up a grab on floaty characters at that %. Lastly, shffl nairs EASILY string into each other at low percents on Ivysaur. Everything listed here is at least 90% of what I did combo wise in that set, and it resulted in me winning.
Edgeguarding Ivysaur is tricky, she appears so vulnerable but there are actually very few options in most scenarios. I will start off by saying I got gimped twice trying to edgeguard Ivysaur by going off stage. So in other words, rather safe than sorry. If you feel any doubt in edgeguarding her offstage in a certain recovery situation, it's better to just do your edgeguarding on stage. They have to get back eventually, so just dash dance around the edge/empty hop etc to bait her coming back on stage while she's on the ledge (just watch out for ledgehop fair or razor leaf). I recommend NOT trying to punish her tether by falling of the edge, since both times I tried that I got gimped by her nair after the hit. She has surprising vertical range on her up b, so she can do an aerial and fall pretty low while still making it back. If Ivysair uses her jump early, they could be close enough AND high enough where there isn't much risk in attempting a back air or two off stage. If this fails, resort to above edgeguarding strategy and wait it out.
For some reason, this may have been due to the opponent's playstyle, but I got an absurd amount of forward air hits after reads in this set. The Ivysaur would retreat when I attempted approaching(which I found out by running toward him/dash dancing/ empty hops) so I got him a couple time with run up and short hop fair/DK punch, anticipating where he WILL be (the end of the stage) instead of where he is. Ivysaur is also very floaty, so I found it easy to read a jump or ledge hop(like the above edgeguarding strategy) with a short hop fair, because Ivy stays in the air for so long when she short hops you can surprise fair them before they land. This whole paragraphs mainly comes down to reads though, it may not be too Ivysaur specific, but it worked in this set. Fair kills so early on light characters which is why it helps to be able to land it, DK punch as well.
Last thing that's EXTREMELY important to know, instead of finding out the hard way, is recovering high will be the better option 95% of the time. I recovered high almost every time. The ONLY time I remember recovering low was in my last stock in game 2, when we both had very high percent and I thought he would predict me recovering high, since it is what I did EVERY other time, but he was smart and reacted instead of predicted. When I was in the middle of up b, he just ran to the edge and down smashed and it was over. I instantly learned my lesson to not recover low against Ivysaur unless for some reason they are not near the ledge after a trade or something. If you recover low, Ivysaur can literally back air you every time you get to the edge with ease, and repeat infinitely until you finally die. So just use your double jump rather early if you get sent far off stage, and use your up B at a time/position where you have multiple options and the opponent will often have to read you in order to hit you. Also, use the up B at a time/position where u don't think they can hit you with back air.
This matchup is somewhere between 70/30 and 60/40 in Ivysaurs favor, in my opinion. Before yesterday, I thought it was 70/30, but I think it could feel like a 60/40 matchup or better with a little Ivy experience. Matchup inexperience makes many characters seem broken in PM, hence the "link is overpowered" johns by many players who lose to him. lol
And that's about it hope it helps, it even helped me by writing about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uxx1nXvbqkA Strong Bad vs. Denti Shuffle V[/collapse]
[collapse=Charizard][/collapse]
Legends of Hyrule
[collapse=Zelda]Direct c/p from what POOB said, thanks man!
I have a lot of Zelda experience (Zhime, Korean DJ, and many others) so I'll start off with a little Zelda summary and you can add it to the spoiler tab if you'd like, as well as any additional things you guys want to add.
Zelda Matchup:
Things to worry about, and "solutions"
- Kicks(fairs/bairs): since DK is so fat it's easy to get sweetspotted unexpectedly. Choose wisely when to run in, a shffl'd nair approach by DK without much thought put into it will often result in a sweetspotted kick to the face against good Zeldas. Learn the scenarios where your opponent likes to kick, Zeldas often like this move as a combo breaker, which is easy to punish if you just wait a moment for the kick to come out before your next hit.
-Auto-combos at low percent: A common weakness for DK, he can get comboed easily. However, Zelda has some pretty brutal combos on DK and even a below average Zelda can easily bring you from about 0-50 with just a few moves, and that's just a mediocre combo. Some of Zelda's best combo starter/moves are multi hit moves,(up smash can combo into itself at low enough %, nair is a good move to continue combos or lead into a grab) so mastering SDI and combo DI is a HUGE help in this matchup.
-Dins (Zelda's side b): Once again, Dk is fat. However, this move is only a problem if you aren't used to playing against it which is why this is a big section. It is important to not get destroyed by dins. Dins are actually very easy to deal with once you get a little practice. I've learned that a little patience goes a long way. Just wait it out. The animation of Zelda's side-b is very long and punishable. Recognize patterns for when your opponent likes to use dins. A common habit of Zelda players is using dins 2-3 times at once when they have space, if this is the case, anticipate the second dins and run and full jump( or short hop, but often this is the area where the first dins is put) at them right as they spawn it, her side b last just long enough to be able to punish with an aerial or even DK punch, which I've done many times
Even if they only use one dins at a time, it is easy to anticipate
Some Zeldas like using dins when recovering, often back to back just like on stage. very easy to punish if anticipated, if they do it low enough u can roll of dash attack and hit with a fair or nair.
In short, Learn their dins habits and how to punish them. It's much easier than it sounds.
Keep in mind, you can hit the dins as well and they go away
Handy moves to destroy dins: f-tilt, bair, dair when coming onto stage from above
Also, mix up your recovery. Many Zeldas spam dins when you are recovering, and edgeguarding is one of Zelda's strengths. (a link to a match of me vs Korean DJ is below, it shows the many recovery options that DK has in this matchup)
Miscellaneous/neutral game strategy:
-Avoid being above Zelda, and try to stay below Zelda. This is a matchup in which both characters have huge advantage when their opponent is above them. If You hit Zelda in the air, do you best to keep her there and hit with an up air. She is so floaty that she will stay in the air for a long time if you hit her with an up air above 50-60%. Just follow her around fox style and stay directly below her wherever she goes and try to up air or simply punish the landing(Just look out for teleport). Zeldas don't like when you are directly below them, since they constantly look for fairs/bairs when falling back to the stage, and dair is too slow to compete with DK's up air in that situation. The opponent will be very uncomfortable if they are just floating around the top of the stage over and over again.
- If they camp, take advantage and charge your punch while dodging dins. Zelda is extremely light, so you should be looking for DK punch opportunities very often. (Once again, punishing her spawning dins with a run in DK punch works wonders)
- Try to control the middle of the stage, this makes it much harder to die from Zelda's fair/bair
-When edgeguarding, if Zelda recover low, simply grab the ledge and use invincibility to try to get her to teleport on stage, and punish with whatever you'd like. Most Zeldas recover high though, which is slightly harder to edgeguard. In this case, just resort to the staying below Zelda strategy mentioned above, unless Zelda is low enough to hit off the stage.
-Zelda dies off the top easily, down smash is much more useful in this matchup than many others.
-Do not roll or tech towards Zelda too much, she is too slow to punish many rolls/techs in the opposite direction of her, unless they anticipate it very well.
Summary:
-Look out for kicks and early deaths from them
-punish dins
-Constantly look for low % KO's
-Improve SDI and combo DI
-Stay below Zelda
-Mix up recovery(link below)
-avoid rolling towards her; example of why also in link below XD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6PR9h9eHiA
In my defense, this was my second tournament and first time playing against someone of Korean dj's caliber at a tournament, and it was only my second match, so I was a little nervous. I have also gotten much more knowledge of this matchup in the past week. However, that is a good thing because you guys get to see a little bit of what TO DO and what NOT TO DO against Zelda
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[collapse=Sheik][/collapse]
[collapse=Link][/collapse]
[collapse=Toon Link][/collapse]
[collapse=Ganondorf][/collapse]
Earthbound
[collapse=Lucas]
Planet Piss said:
Might just be me, but I'd say DK wins it fairly well.
For starters, Lucas is the easiest character for DK to not only combo, but combo to kill. Uair, utilt (especially that one), cargo uthrow are almost inescapable for Lucas. Characters like Fox and even Falcon (and MK to some extent) tend to fall too fast to combo on reaction, and Hylian weights like Sheik and Link are heavy enough to withstand regular zero-deaths.
Lucas is light enough for random nair/up+b mixups to kill very reliably, and if nair is DI'd upwards, it's an automatic KO follow-up. He also falls fast enough for guaranteed 'up' combos to work until GP or fair weill finish him from center stage.
In the case of edgeguarding, DK's up+b spin animation (not necessarily the startup hitbox but the mid-air spinning animation) completely stuffs Ropesnake. Well-spaced nair beats magnet, and RAR bair offstage assault, as a mix-up, works insanely well when timed to go in between the magnets. His up+b is a joke if you don't get overzealous and consequently zapped.
As far as defensive game goes, you should not have to trade in the air. Instead, look out for the PK Freeze. Specifically, do any and all of the following:
-Powershield it. Not that hard to powershield stuff, especially if you, as DK, do a running shield. It will take a bit of practice but it's almost imperative.
-Hang out on platforms and get openings by dairing him if he tries to come and get you. Personally, I like to shield drop bair/uair all the time, because it's a technique that literally opens up guaranteed death combos from a defensive state.
-Trade the projectile with a ground move like dtilt.
Speaking of Dtilt, that move is invaluable in neutral. If you are arm's length away from Lucas and pressuring him with ground moves, he can't do anything but try to escape. DK's biggest strength in this MU is the spacing, and once you have solid ground-based neutral down, you can proceed to learn how to carry a single weak (or strong) bair, dtilt, or jab sequence into death.
Some things to watch out for:
-Going offstage. He's going to try to spike you and it won't be hard for him and you'll die at zero percent sometimes. Only go offstage when you read what his next option is. Similar to this, mix-up your recovery. Know where Lucas's bair spike hitbox is and avoid it at all costs. If you know you're going to get hit, press into him to aim for the non-spike bair or (either) sourspot. Dair is much easier to avoid.
-Be patient with his dair combos. Don't spam the tech button because it won't work. Wait until he's comitted to dair and tech to a direction of your choosing. Preferably, don't tech in place because Lucas can punish it on accident.
-Getting grabbed. Bait the grab if possible, but DI'ing away (behind him), to my knowledge, eliminates guaranteed follow-ups after Dthrow.
Additional note:
Shield grab him when you can. Lucas has to be COMPLETELY on point to avoid shieldgrabs from DK. Be smart and don't grab when he's fading back or crossing up (going behind you). He'll get worn out eventually due to how much work he has to do compared with the loss in momentum he experiences when getting combo'd all day.
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[collapse=Ness][/collapse]
Metroid Hunter
[collapse=Samus][/collapse]
[collapse=Zero Suit Samus][/collapse]
Nightmares From Dreamland
[collapse=Kirby][/collapse]
[collapse=Meta Knight][/collapse]
[collapse=Dedede][/collapse]
Path of Radiance
[collapse=Ike][/collapse]
[collapse=Marth][/collapse]
[collapse=Roy]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6--KltChdQ8 Disaster vs. Sethlon @Smash9[/collapse]
The rest of the cast
[collapse=Captain Falcon]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpjSKlD3IP8 Eli vs. Hax @ SuddenDeath 14 (PM2.6)[/collapse][collapse=Ice Climbers]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn50AQsYPGA Poob vs. Young Justice Smashing Grounds[/collapse]
[collapse=Pit]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jigxr24O8ro CoffeeBlack vs. RaynEX McSmashter3[/collapse]
[collapse=Olimar]This is advice comes from the Olimar boards, thanks for all the help everyone!
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I'm bored, so why not help out some olimar players cause I'm tired of hearing them complain about this matchup LOL
I'm not gonna take the time to make this grammatically correct or perfectly clear, so my apologies
Olimar can combo DK as well as DK can combo any character in the game, so mastering combo game is the first step. That way, neither character has an advantage in the punish game department. Tbh, I picked up Olimar for about a week a looong time ago and the first thing i do wtih any character I pick up is experiment with their combo possibilities on a level 1 computer(cause they actually DI occasionally lol) Olimar does some brutal things to DK. Some things that come to mind, while most of you may know but I rarely see olimars do most of these things which is why I bring it up, are down throw chain grabs, down throw to up smash(up smash can combo into itself 2-3 times at low %) then once up smash sends him too high, do up air juggles or nair juggles. and end it with a powerful hit that sends at a low angle like fair. Try to get that fair with a strong pikmin. For example, if you have a white pikmin then a yellow one, do one more up air then use the yellow for the fair. He has bad vertical recovery so low angle moves really limit his options.
Mastering oos game also helps a lot, cause olimar has great oos game and has many options with his low short hop (nair oos, bair, fair, purple pikmin up smash when going for the kill or just any other up smash to start a combo, and of course grab). Being a DK player, I like to abuse opponent's poor oos game(it's pretty easy to notice how good a player's oos game is when playing them) by doing nairs and fairs on shield and then jab because the shield stun throws a lot of people off. If DK does a nair or fair on your shield(except a well spaced fair), that can lead to a free, brutal, combo/juggle out of nair, grab, or up smash. That brutal combo will then lead to an edgeguard situation which I will talk about next.
When edgeguarding him, don't stand around on stage and try to wait to see what DK does. Doing this just makes your brain go back and forth between decisions and will get you overwhelmed make you want to shoot someone when he sneaks his way back every time. When you see him recover with up b, just jump out and make a decision whether it's fair or dair or whatever, just jump out there and do it. Your vertical recovery is better than his so it's impossible for him to be recovering in a way that will prevent you from getting back if you hit him. Even if you get hit, it's a weak hitbox and unless you jump into it and lose your jump, you will get back just fine.
Also, recover low since DK can't go down too far and make it back safely. Use the range on that up b and delay your rise up until you see an opening
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DK Vs Olimar
DK is able to Trample over Olimar.
His Nair is a fantastic approach since his arms beat out the Purple Pikmin Toss.
Use a well spaced Fair for when he's holding the edge.
He has options when Olimar is returning Mid to Low. If Mid, a dash attack off the edge can put him out of reach of the edge. A Nair or Bair will also safely do the trick.
Jumping Cargo Throw off the edge followed by a Fair can net some early kills and has a high hit rate. If you ever grab and are able to do this, you should. DK is very safe here. Don't be afraid to go out far. Just stay high and you'll be fine.
Jab. Whenever Olimar is close, Jab. You can do a 2 hit into a grab even if he blocks. He's able to grab after your second Jab but it's good to switch up the number of Jab's you do.
If Olimar is out of DK's Jab range, Olimar can get a Grab in. To counter this, Dtilt. A Fair will also do the trick often if you read the grab attempt.
Fair L-Canceled into Jab - Grab is incredible as an approach as long as he blocks. If he doesn't block, he most likely will eat the Fair.
Toss out Bairs as pressure. You don't need to hit him but it will most likely force him to do something, which opens you up for an opportunity for a grab. This is best used when he recovers from the ledge.
^ Copy Paste from the DK thread.
The counter play to this is generally to have a good DD game. If you can DD and get a grab on you can rack up some damage but will likely have a hard time killing him without a Purple hit or a Blue throw when he's over 150% (Depending on the stage)
DK has a Jab that is really good. If he gets you, you can try and DI up and away but chances are, your going to eat a Nair, or if your at lower percents, you'll get grabbed.
If you get grabbed near the edge and put into a Cargo Hold, then he jumps off and tosses you, you basically have to change up your DI. It's kind of a Rock Paper Scissors thing but he's more likely to win. Theres no Safe DI direction on this one.
One of the main tactics you should strive for is getting more Purples. If you can get 3, then you can put on enough constant pressure that you can take the upper hand. I personally recommend haveing only 3 Purples and no others in this matchup, as having 1 that doesn't give knockback can cost you the stock since your probably high in % anyways. Note that this can be very difficult to achieve since an aggressive DK can be hard to deal with.
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[collapse=R.O.B]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp31NzvA-WM SCG FantaScrub vs. Jitty[/collapse]
[collapse=Mr. Game and Watch][/collapse]
[collapse=Snake]Thanks Teneban for the advice!!
I always tell people to learn one thing against Snake : instant tossing. This Brawl technique consists in catching an item with an airdodge and cancelling the airdodge by tossing that same item. Essentially, you're air glide tossing an item before it's in your hand.
Now this technique is good against all item users (Diddy especially), but against Snake it requires a bit of finesse : if he shields, the grenade is going to drop down slowly and since the fuse is so short, probably blow you up. So you have to look at what snake is doing and if he's not in a position to shield, spam the hell out of this technique. That should cut off half of his camping power, because he'll now have to stay stationnary so you don't send grenades flying back at him. Make him respect you and he'll dramastically calm down.
I traditionally instant toss by doing triangle jumps with an additionnal C stick input. But if you are certain you're going to succeed (in example when the grenade is sitting on a platform), you can use lateral and upwards glides instead, which may help a bit.
Snake's out of shield is not to be messed with. He can either drop a grenade so that you eat 10% if you attack his shield too recklessly, do a frame 5 upB that's invincible up to frame 4 and is only -3 on block, or grab you, and you really don't want Snake to grab you. Always mind the direction he is facing : you can attack the front of his shield alright, but attacking the back of it is asking for a nade.
Luckily, we are a grappler character : shielding is generally a bad idea against DK. Make him respect your Z button by predicting shields.
Snake is juggle food due to a high falling speed and very low horizontal air speed, so go nuts on him when you do land a grab. He does take very little hitstun because of his weight though. Abuse the cargo to get out of the nade's blowing range if he dropped one before you grabbed him. But Snake is the Trade Master : if you leave him alone for 8 frames, he'll have a grenade out and attempt to combo break with it. To counter this, aim for his legs : he holds the grenade high and to the back, so even though it cuts some angles of attacks, it still leaves a lot of his hurtbox vulnerable.
While comboing him, try to put him offstage, low if possible : you can dair his upB, it will meteor him and you'll get hit by the cypher, which will help you recover, so you can really go fish for those gimps very deep. Snake's recovery is infinite : if you don't kill him, he'll come back, even if it costs him greatly.
I suggest being cautious with dash attacks : they lose to all of his projectiles, including the tranq, which leads to a lot of pain. I only use it to juggle in this matchup tbh.
Snake will use B reverse grenades to get out of juggles, don't let it fool you.
Recovering as DK against Snake is going to be extremely painful. He can fair spike you quite easily, drop a C4 from above and detonate it remotely, among other things. I like picking stages with platforms so that I can at least mixup between recovering high and low.
You can run into mines and shield them by using the little slide you do after a dash shield. You can use them though (cargo dthrow him into it), my general plan is to get rid of them if I'm stickied, and try to use them to my advantage otherwise. It's a bit harder to get rid of them if he plants them on a platform I must say.
Nothing we have beats his juggle game. Just DI towards a ledge so that it stops sooner because of a lack of terrain for him to fall back on.
Snake's approaches suck. If you manage to get a lead, it's going to be a much smoother ride.
Of course, try not to get C4'd, it reduces your life expectancy by a good 60%. That includes not shielding stupidly (it can be stickied through shields), and being careful in the respawn phase. Also try not to get grabbed before at least 40%.
I'd say Snake wins the matchup by a respectable margin, but you can still take him and I find it very interesting.[/collapse]
[collapse=Sonic][/collapse]
I will update this if I see any well written summaries, videos, ect. of matchups, since I'm not to good at doing that myself.
Donkey Kong may not have his coconut guns(which fire in spurts), but that doesn't stop this Ape from being a worthy contender in Project M.
Here are a list of the contenders and a way to deal with them.
Most recent update:
Added advice to the Lucas section
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The Mushroom Kingdom Presents...
[collapse=Wario][/collapse]
[collapse=Mario]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc9gM8vPFlo Strong Bad vs. Pikachad @ The Big House 3 (PM2.6 The Kong at 8:44)[/collapse]
[collapse=Luigi][/collapse]
[collapse=Peach][/collapse]
[collapse=Bowser]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCxuKCz7X4Y Eli vs. Yunque Apex 2014[/collapse]
[collapse=Yoshi][/collapse]
Donkey Kong's Country
[collapse=Donkey Kong][/collapse]
[collapse=Diddy Kong]Thanks to Jechtire, POOB, and Teneban there is a lot of information regarding this matchup.
Jechtire said:
Played a Diddy named Tweak recently, and here were my findings:
- Nair is your strongest asset here, it beats out a lot of his moves and it stops bananas.
- Keep the pressure on, Diddy rolls all over DK if you let him set up.
- This is just a general Diddy tip, but if you have the chance to grab his banana, do it. You turn his biggest strength against him once you grab both his bananas. I like to throw his bananas upwards so it takes a bit before he has a chance to grab it back.
- Another tip, when you notice the Diddy you are fighting isn't trying to sweetspot, predict his end point. You can punish Diddy extremely hard with something like Cargo Throw Up > Fair.
My awful advice said:
DK's good range and grab combo's can be hard for Diddy to get by, as well as DK's good CC game.
Offstage, DK can't do much to defend himself, and I recommend recovering high if possible
POOB said:
Everything you said here is very true. I'll throw my 2 cents in as well for this matchup and our 2 posts combined should be enough info for the diddy spoiler
When I played Ninjalink's Diddy at Sktar, I did what you said about keeping the pressure on, but I did it in bursts. It was on FD, and Diddy's projectiles, when far enough, can't hit me when I full jump unless he gets closer. So, I would just jump around and charge my punch in neutral while he camped. This killed 2 birds with 1 stone. First, I prioritized having my punch charged in this matchup because cargo u throw to Giant Punch is so free against Diddy Kong and it is a complete momentum changer (to add on to what you said about punishing with cargo u throw to fair) and can kill easily.
The second reason this worked is a little harder to explain, but I feel it is an interesting thing to keep in mind so I will take the time to explain it clearly. Slowly charging your punch while moving around, maybe 1-3 swings at a time, Can have multiple psychological effects on your opponent. Which effect it will have solely depends on how your opponent plays. The reason it worked on Ninjalink, was because he started off the match spamming projectiles like crazy the moment the match started, and that is an extremely effective strategy V.S. DK. When I took my time charging my punch and dodged everything he threw at me without racking up any %, it gave him the feeling that his strategy wasn't working so I noticed he spammed less and instead tried to dash dance around while holding a banana to try to bait me another way. Whereas, if he continued to spam the way he originally did once I finished charging my punch, it would have worked much better. Another thing it may do, but unlikely v.s. a smart Diddy, is make them want to approach and hit you cause they don't want you to charge the punch. Lastly, Dk is simply scarier with a charged punch and can apply more pressure.
When trying to get in, I found going in and out with full hops to be most effective since dash dancing will just get you hit with bananas. Once he throws them at me and I notice he has no banana in his hand and they are below me, for example, I go in. But don't go in blindly v.s. Diddy because he has great dash dance speed. Always try to read his retreat or jump and run an extra quarter second or so before doing that shffl nair or grab.(just an example for punishing a predictable retreat)
Once you get that first hit, is when DK shines in this matchup, like many of his matchups. DK can combo diddy like crazy. Besides spacies, Diddy is arguably the next easiest character to u-air juggle with DK. This and the fact that full hop cargo u throw to fair/DK punch works at such a wide percent range are two reasons diddy could easily be in a death situation from one of DK's grabs or solid approaches.
Lastly, Jechtire is completely right about grabbing bananas. The combos and follow ups that DK can do with bananas are absurd. Most important to keep in mind is tech chasing with bananas and ground pound. At low % you can tech chase brutally, and at high percent you can kill with u smash or Giant punch after ground pound. Experiment yourself to find out what else he can do with bananas!
And that's how I beat ninjalink, despite this supposedly being an awful matchup for DK, which I now think is about even. Also, no disrespect towards Ninjalink. This post is strictly for learning and sharing purposes. In his defense, I don't think there are any relevant DK's in his region and he likely did not know the matchup at all.
Teneban said:
On the topic of Diddy :
Here are some ways to counter a banana
-avoiding it. Pro : very little risk. Con : you lose some stage control
-shielding it and then catching it in midair. (the banana bounces pff of your shield vertically, you just jump out of shield and catch it with Z, a nair, a bair or an uair depending on the situation) Pro : gets you the banana. Con : if the diddy is near enough, he can punish you for trying this.
-perfect shielding it. Pro : immediate retaliation. Con : slightly more technically demanding, especially since this is only useful at close range. If it fails, you can still catch it after it bounces
-clanking with it. Pro : looks good. Con : extremely difficult. You can only clank it with a disjointed move, like nair or ftilt. The banana still isn't yours after a clank.
-catching it (with a wavedash or a jab). Pro : pisses the diddy off. Con : as difficult as powershielding, except you won't get to use it in many other matchups.
-instant-toss it (do the same motion as the air glide toss as you're about to get hit by a banana in midair). Pro : can help you recover. Con : again, needs a bit of training.
What you can do with a banana :
-a glide toss towards your opponent. Pro : covers a lot of distance. Con : extremzly telegraphed. (back glide toss and forward glide toss have different glide lengths)
-an air glide toss. Pro : more versatile than a grounded glide toss.
-use B moves. Pro : keeps control of the banana longer. Con : DK's b moves aren't spammable
-toss it upwards. Pro : leaves it out of Diddy's reach for a while, especially if it lands on a high platform. Con : you aren't using it
-toss it downwards (while in the air). Pro : gpod shield pressure. Con : can be usmash oos'd
-ground footstool-air glide toss downwards. Pro : very good shield pressure. Con : I doubt many of you have a footstool button mapping since DK doesn't naturally profit from it.
-z-drop it. Pro : you can catch it with an aerial or just use it for shield pressure. Con : you're not using the banana's speed so much.
-do an fsmash (hold A during a wavedash, press the c stick, release A). Pro : not many people know about it. Con : situationnal.
That's all I got :3
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Lylat Voyagers
[collapse=Wolf]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_hXKfiFQlE Strong Bad vs Rat NERD RAGE (PM2.6)[/collapse]
[collapse=Fox][/collapse]
[collapse=Falco]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DtzIF7zyOA Strong Bad vs. SFAT The Big House 3 (3:44 The Kong appears)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn50AQsYPGA Poob vs. Young Justice Smashing Grounds. Keep notice on the upthrow combos and the ground pound. 3:48 for Flaco[/collapse]
The Pokemon Center
[collapse=Mewtwo]Pros: DK can punish Up-B incredibly well, and has the power to put an early end to Mewtwo. Plus, while Mewtwo is floaty, he's still medium weight, giving your throw combos excellent potency in the match-up.
Cons: Mewtwo can simply outspace DK with relative ease. A wise Mewtwo will not warp spam against a DK who can punish it, they will resort to a defensive game to get you to approach carelessly, and safely build damage with his tail. DK's size makes him incredibly vulnerable to F-Air, and Mewtwo can warp above DK's recovery for an easy Meteor punish.
How I feel the match-up slides: Personally, this tends to be in DK's favor. However, I will write like you're fighting more competent foes, the kind that can still make this their match-up. For an overall scale, I feel 65-35 DK's favor.
Defense is much more important in this fight, so I'll discuss that first.
Defense: Climbing the "Warp"ed Wall.
Mewtwo has a very fast and very high pressure offensive game. With good space on aerials and good frame data, defending against Mewtwo requires thought and patience.
Step One: Stay Grounded during Neutral game.
I cannot stress that enough, the ability to simply guard Mewtwo's aerial approaches is devastating to the pressure which he can apply. It forces him to go for a warp side B- approach, or to back off and try to apply pressure with Shadow Ball before warping.
The shadow ball warp approach becomes easy to read once you've seen it a few times, and running in and power shielding it usually throws off Mewtwo's approach in one of two ways.
Scenario One: SB hits Mewtwo.
What are you waiting for? Now's your chance! Go for dash attack, or if time permits, grab him, and let the fun begin.
Scenario Two: SB misses, and Mewtwo warps.
If you ran toward Mewtwo and power-shielded, it's more than likely you ran past his intended warp point, watch out for a b-air from warp. When he misses an aerial and has to land from float, go for a punish. (I'll describe best practices for that later)
Countering basic warp approach
Mewtwo's bread and butter. Warping is a devious, yet, simple approach in Mewtwo's arsenal. In most cases: A better Mewtwo, even if he doesn't warp straight at you, will come out swinging IMMEDIATELY. Mewtwo's learn to throw out hitboxes to protect themselves from being punished whilst warping. It's good Mewtwo practice, but DK has ways to cope.
Imagine this scenario:
Mewtwo warps. He was too far away in front of you to warp behind you, and you're at relatively low percent for F-air kill. This means he'll probably warp above, and falling N-Air. Remember, unless Mewtwo aims for the ground, he has to travel the full distance of his warp in the direction he choses. So with some practice, you know exactly where he'll end up. If he goes for the overhead, simply jump so you're overlapping where he'll spawn, and make him eat a Nair. Sure, you'll probably trade. But your Nair vs a hit of his Nair is a great trade. If you want a more combo set-up options, try learning how to punish with Up-Air. It's more precise on the spacing, (since trading will nullify the use of a combo set up move like Up-air, leaving Nair as the better option if you're not sure of yourself) but hitting it without trading leads to follow up potential.
Now look at this scenario:
Mewtwo warps. He made a note of getting closer before he did, and once again, he can't shorten the distance of warp unless he lands (which has lag) so he's probably trying to get behind you for one of two approaches.
A: He wants a few quick hits, and doesn't know how much you like to guard yet. So he will probably B-Air wall. Power shield one, and you can jump out of shield Bair to punish in between two of his Bair's (takes some practice, but not too hard)
B: He's aware you might be expecting Bair, and knows you know how to defend yourself, expect a side B from behind. Harder to dodge, but it's simple really. Simply walk forward, and whilst in his animation (which has some vulnerability) jump Bair. (You have to lean into this a little, because Side B has pushboxes)
For both, don't stop there. L_cancel, and make him keep eating your own B-Air wall. A good sour spot bair can set up for a grab, but it's more technical.
Final Scenario.
Mewtwo warps, and you're at high percent. He's the same space from the first scenario, so no flanking you. He'll try two things.
First: A direct frontal assault. He'll come at you at ground level (not touching though) and F-air. You want to shield this approach if you know it's coming. Harder to punish, since a good Mewtwo will retreat Fair in order to prevent a punish. DK has a harder time air punishing right in front of him, especially in the time provided. Also, if you don't power shield, you'll be in stun too long to punish this option if they retreat. The plan is to be patient. Wait for them to get too ambitious. If they flank you with another warp after the first fails, you know how to punish already. (Once again, harder to punish Fair, but much more punishable if they come from behind) Note: If you see this approach coming, you can try turning around and shielding it, so your back is to Mewtwo. Giving Bair a time to shine. Also, if they fair and don't retreat. Make the sonuva' gun eat a Nair. Chicks dig Nair.
Second: He may try to come from above and Dair to pop you up. Like the Fair approach, this can be done in retreat, but the cool down if Mewtwo stays in the air is long enough that either Nair, UAir, or Bair will punish. (depending on how Mewtwo retreats) As always, shielding is excellent to block. Counter however you see fit.
"But Akashic! I missed the punish! Now what?!"
Step One: Don't panic. Remember? He has to land. A good Mewtwo will always get his L-cancel while landing, so he won't be vulnerable long, but he will be vulnerable. If he's retreating before landing, approach with a walk, and F-tilt the landing. (This is the safest way, you can get creative after you learn to punish it more consistently) If he gets ambitious, he'll probably, follow-up whatever approach with Nair. Fun Fact: The shield lag on Nair is negligible. Punishing afterwards is an option. (Or, if you want "shock" value you can grab between the hits on Nair, it's hard, but possible)
"What if I miss all the chances to punish!?"
Stay clam. If you're confident in your spacing, close the gap and keep him in range. (Watch for grab here) If you're not feeling so bold, retreat with wavedash (a roll could suffice, I do so a lot) And wait for him to try again.
Moving on:
Air defense: Surviving the onslaught
Bad news: Mewtwo outsmarted you. Maybe he used Side B, and you ended up above him. Worse case scenario, he's gonna give build up percentage, and rising Fair you. But only if you panic. Remember, in the air, you are most vulnerable to being juggled by Mewtwo from his behind (Bair) and from his front diagonal (UAir). He can get you from his direct front (Fair) but it has much less range. The tl;dr of defense here, is to watch these key areas and avoid them in falling, but I will go into some detail ahead if you want.
Directly above Mewtwo: Tl;dr Dair
Mewtwo will go for U-Air, this much is obvious. If you have enough space between the two of you, a dair can end his combo ambitions, even with a trade. You can air dodge through him if you feel fancy, and fast fall to ground. If you can get to his front-side. (Note this applies to EVERY air scenario with this opponent) NAir or Bair depending on what side is facing him.
Behind Mewtwo: The worst nightmare. tl;dr Bair, Nair, Up-B dodge
Mewtwo's Bair will end you if you can't dodge it. Your best bet is if you know you can't dodge, go for a trade. Nair works with timing. And Bair rivals it's range well. You can also Up-B THROUGH him if you feel lucky. (This also racks on some nice damage, good for you) Remember, once you break the juggle, return to earth ASAP
General Practice in the Air: Up-B: The secret trump card.
Regardless where you end up, Up-B is usually a solid option to escape. It's got faster horizontal movement than Mewtwo so it can juke him. It's got solid frame data, so you can also challenge him with it. (Mentioned above)
Final Note about Aerial Mewtwo: He has to land.
He floats, he doesn't fly. He has to come down at some point. Keep it in mind when determining which option is right for you. Once again, if he warps, he has to travel the full distance in that direction. So go for a juke if he goes to comeback. If you're not in hitstun, throw a Nair like I mentioned earlier in countering warp.
WHEW. Defense in a nutshell there..... Nah, just kidding. I've nearly forgotten the most important part.
Defense against the patience Pokemon: Fighting the tail.
Imagine: You're fighting a battle hardened Mewtwo. He knows you can punish warp with your aerials. So he'll be patient. Knocking you away with his tail and firing shadow balls. What do you do?
The better question is, what can you do? This is where Mewtwo gets his 35 points in this match-up. A good approach here is hard, and it's better to try to debunk all of his crap and wait for an approach of his own. Instead of imagining scenarios, I'll just remind you of some of your weapons.
Dash attack has armor. If you read a tilt, go for it. Worse case scenario: You trade.
Powershielding reflects Shadow Ball. Learn that timing folks. Then follow up.
And that thing you always forget about, Down B. This forces him in the air, and when you're below Mewtwo, you're at the advantage.
RAR Bair is fast, and can punish if he makes a commitment on the ground that keeps him there. It also nullifies poorly charged shadow ball.
There's more, but it this should help get your mind flowing in the right direction. The biggest part about defense in this matchup is being able to play it by ear. (or, in different terms, play it as you go)
Offense: Can't catch pokemon til you weaken them first!
Mewtwo is incredibly weak to DK when Dk is below him. U-Air juggles well. And Grab combos devastate Mewtwo. When you've made Mewtwo go above, switch gears, and go ham.
D-Tilt and Crouch Cancels. Crouch cancelling is vital to fighting Mewtwo on ground. And it can be followed quickly by D-Tilt, which rivals Mewtwo's range. Get in close, crouch the tilt, punish. Watch for grabs here, they'll devastate you.
Up-tilt. Up-tilt is a solid option once Mewtwo is above you. It allows you to stay grounded while juggling him at low percents, and can guard the aerial approaches with ease.
If Mewtwo ever rolls (it does happen) remember that it has WAAAY more distance than most rolls, and he'll probably do this to dodge a tilt and get behind you. Despite it's range, his roll has some bad ending lag, jab or tilt to respond.
Combos: Jab (both hits) into D-tilt hits Mewtwo at fairly early to decently high percent (0-65%) Depending on how he DI's, you can follow with insta Nair, grab, or dash attack.
Forward Cargo throw combo: Even with good DI from about (50-80%) this should land. (For the uninitiated, Grab->Cargo->Jump Forward->Forward Cargo throw->Double Jump-> Fair) At lower percents, you can forgo the double jump and Nair him. If you pull this combo at 80, you can kill Mewtwo on some maps.
Up-Cargo: The bread and butter. Like with most foes, low percent leads to Up-Air juggles. At high percent, you can buffer a Fair from your throw (after a double jump) and land the wild haymaker.
Reverse Cargo throw has some utility, try to follow with up-air or Fair.
If you grab Mewtwo from too high of a percent for combo, you can choose to kill him with back throw, or up-throw him to get stage control.
Aerial Side-B Meteors don't affect Mewtwo much, but can be used if he's going to warp to ledge for a sweetspot. (Only the first time, the warp from ledge to ledge warp has full invincibility, so don't approach)
Giant's Punch: Keep one charged. Once you better read warps, You can punish big time.
DK-cide: Always a punish option that is effective based on the player your facing and less the character. Try to see how much they mash when you grab them before you show this hand to the opponent, since if they mash, they are bound to live (ESPECIALLY Mewtwo) and you're bound to die horribly.
F-Air. This move is excellent for spacing Mewtwo while he's in the air. Like with Giant's Punch, you can use this to punish warp big time once you get a feel for how he warps. This can be used to challenge Mewtwo's juggle too, but usually to less effect.
TL;DR. Block warp stuff, punish it big. Combo the crap out of him when you can. Don't miss opportunities to take stocks. Play patient, and don't forget your whole arsenal.[/collapse]
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[collapse=Ivysaur]Direct c/p from what Poob said, thanks man!
OK, I'm kinda bored and have nothing to do so I'm gonna post some stuff on the dreaded ivysaur matchup, one of DK's worst matchups according to many. I beat a really good ivysaur in tourney yesterday! I was so happy because it is such a hard matchup, I thought I would need a secondary to win it lol. That's why I'm going to share what I did to try to help other DK's who are struggling v.s. Ivy, and I can reflect on my set as well and maybe learn something myself. I will not write too formally, but it will contain all the facts u need. I just won't take the time to organize it perfectly because it would take awhile.
Anyway, it went to game 3 and all matches were close. I won game 1 on battlefield, lost game 2 on dream land, and won game 3 on skyloft (GREAT counterpick for DK in many matchups by the way). I will go through what I did right and what I did wrong, as well as throw in other things from past experience. So it will basically tell you what to do and what not to do.
Game 1 on battlefield, my overall strategy was to stay back and avoid razor leaf(ivy's side b) until I found an opening. I would run in and out until razor leaf wasn't in the way and I could get a safe approach or punish. Razor leaf isn't much of an issue on battlefield, because you can just jump onto the platform above you and move around that way, trying to bait ivysaur to make a move and then punish.
It's important to be proficient at combos in this matchup since ivysaur will likely outplay you in neutral game, so I will list what worked for me in this matchup combo-wise. I found it relatively easy to combo ivysaur. When I finally got a hit after the patient spacing, it usually resulted in a long string of hits. Down throw works well on ivy at low percents like 0-20 ish, to follow up with another grab, shffl nair, or dash attack depending on DI. (I got him a couple times with down throw around 0%, regrab, cargo back throw quickly to mess up DI, into shffl up air and follow ups after the up air). Don't forget cargo up throw/f throw/b throw to fair, can be done at low % on ivy and still send her far off stage to lead to edgeguarding, which I will talk about next. One thing that helped me a TON, that will now be one of my bread and butter killers on floaty/light characters after being so successful with it yesterday, is standing cargo up throw to full jump/double jump up air when they are above 100%. I killed him three times in our three matches that way, and dream land in game 2 was a great counterpick on his part because it did not work on that stage due to the high ceiling, I should have anticipated that. That combo is good even if it won't kill, just because it is so unbelievably easy and there aren't many other ways to follow up a grab on floaty characters at that %. Lastly, shffl nairs EASILY string into each other at low percents on Ivysaur. Everything listed here is at least 90% of what I did combo wise in that set, and it resulted in me winning.
Edgeguarding Ivysaur is tricky, she appears so vulnerable but there are actually very few options in most scenarios. I will start off by saying I got gimped twice trying to edgeguard Ivysaur by going off stage. So in other words, rather safe than sorry. If you feel any doubt in edgeguarding her offstage in a certain recovery situation, it's better to just do your edgeguarding on stage. They have to get back eventually, so just dash dance around the edge/empty hop etc to bait her coming back on stage while she's on the ledge (just watch out for ledgehop fair or razor leaf). I recommend NOT trying to punish her tether by falling of the edge, since both times I tried that I got gimped by her nair after the hit. She has surprising vertical range on her up b, so she can do an aerial and fall pretty low while still making it back. If Ivysair uses her jump early, they could be close enough AND high enough where there isn't much risk in attempting a back air or two off stage. If this fails, resort to above edgeguarding strategy and wait it out.
For some reason, this may have been due to the opponent's playstyle, but I got an absurd amount of forward air hits after reads in this set. The Ivysaur would retreat when I attempted approaching(which I found out by running toward him/dash dancing/ empty hops) so I got him a couple time with run up and short hop fair/DK punch, anticipating where he WILL be (the end of the stage) instead of where he is. Ivysaur is also very floaty, so I found it easy to read a jump or ledge hop(like the above edgeguarding strategy) with a short hop fair, because Ivy stays in the air for so long when she short hops you can surprise fair them before they land. This whole paragraphs mainly comes down to reads though, it may not be too Ivysaur specific, but it worked in this set. Fair kills so early on light characters which is why it helps to be able to land it, DK punch as well.
Last thing that's EXTREMELY important to know, instead of finding out the hard way, is recovering high will be the better option 95% of the time. I recovered high almost every time. The ONLY time I remember recovering low was in my last stock in game 2, when we both had very high percent and I thought he would predict me recovering high, since it is what I did EVERY other time, but he was smart and reacted instead of predicted. When I was in the middle of up b, he just ran to the edge and down smashed and it was over. I instantly learned my lesson to not recover low against Ivysaur unless for some reason they are not near the ledge after a trade or something. If you recover low, Ivysaur can literally back air you every time you get to the edge with ease, and repeat infinitely until you finally die. So just use your double jump rather early if you get sent far off stage, and use your up B at a time/position where you have multiple options and the opponent will often have to read you in order to hit you. Also, use the up B at a time/position where u don't think they can hit you with back air.
This matchup is somewhere between 70/30 and 60/40 in Ivysaurs favor, in my opinion. Before yesterday, I thought it was 70/30, but I think it could feel like a 60/40 matchup or better with a little Ivy experience. Matchup inexperience makes many characters seem broken in PM, hence the "link is overpowered" johns by many players who lose to him. lol
And that's about it
hope it helps, it even helped me by writing about it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uxx1nXvbqkA Strong Bad vs. Denti Shuffle V[/collapse]
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Legends of Hyrule
[collapse=Zelda]Direct c/p from what POOB said, thanks man!
I have a lot of Zelda experience (Zhime, Korean DJ, and many others) so I'll start off with a little Zelda summary and you can add it to the spoiler tab if you'd like, as well as any additional things you guys want to add.
Zelda Matchup:
Things to worry about, and "solutions"
- Kicks(fairs/bairs): since DK is so fat it's easy to get sweetspotted unexpectedly. Choose wisely when to run in, a shffl'd nair approach by DK without much thought put into it will often result in a sweetspotted kick to the face against good Zeldas. Learn the scenarios where your opponent likes to kick, Zeldas often like this move as a combo breaker, which is easy to punish if you just wait a moment for the kick to come out before your next hit.
-Auto-combos at low percent: A common weakness for DK, he can get comboed easily. However, Zelda has some pretty brutal combos on DK and even a below average Zelda can easily bring you from about 0-50 with just a few moves, and that's just a mediocre combo. Some of Zelda's best combo starter/moves are multi hit moves,(up smash can combo into itself at low enough %, nair is a good move to continue combos or lead into a grab) so mastering SDI and combo DI is a HUGE help in this matchup.
-Dins (Zelda's side b): Once again, Dk is fat. However, this move is only a problem if you aren't used to playing against it which is why this is a big section. It is important to not get destroyed by dins. Dins are actually very easy to deal with once you get a little practice. I've learned that a little patience goes a long way. Just wait it out. The animation of Zelda's side-b is very long and punishable. Recognize patterns for when your opponent likes to use dins. A common habit of Zelda players is using dins 2-3 times at once when they have space, if this is the case, anticipate the second dins and run and full jump( or short hop, but often this is the area where the first dins is put) at them right as they spawn it, her side b last just long enough to be able to punish with an aerial or even DK punch, which I've done many times
Even if they only use one dins at a time, it is easy to anticipate
Some Zeldas like using dins when recovering, often back to back just like on stage. very easy to punish if anticipated, if they do it low enough u can roll of dash attack and hit with a fair or nair.
In short, Learn their dins habits and how to punish them. It's much easier than it sounds.
Keep in mind, you can hit the dins as well and they go away
Handy moves to destroy dins: f-tilt, bair, dair when coming onto stage from above
Also, mix up your recovery. Many Zeldas spam dins when you are recovering, and edgeguarding is one of Zelda's strengths. (a link to a match of me vs Korean DJ is below, it shows the many recovery options that DK has in this matchup)
Miscellaneous/neutral game strategy:
-Avoid being above Zelda, and try to stay below Zelda. This is a matchup in which both characters have huge advantage when their opponent is above them. If You hit Zelda in the air, do you best to keep her there and hit with an up air. She is so floaty that she will stay in the air for a long time if you hit her with an up air above 50-60%. Just follow her around fox style and stay directly below her wherever she goes and try to up air or simply punish the landing(Just look out for teleport). Zeldas don't like when you are directly below them, since they constantly look for fairs/bairs when falling back to the stage, and dair is too slow to compete with DK's up air in that situation. The opponent will be very uncomfortable if they are just floating around the top of the stage over and over again.
- If they camp, take advantage and charge your punch while dodging dins. Zelda is extremely light, so you should be looking for DK punch opportunities very often. (Once again, punishing her spawning dins with a run in DK punch works wonders)
- Try to control the middle of the stage, this makes it much harder to die from Zelda's fair/bair
-When edgeguarding, if Zelda recover low, simply grab the ledge and use invincibility to try to get her to teleport on stage, and punish with whatever you'd like. Most Zeldas recover high though, which is slightly harder to edgeguard. In this case, just resort to the staying below Zelda strategy mentioned above, unless Zelda is low enough to hit off the stage.
-Zelda dies off the top easily, down smash is much more useful in this matchup than many others.
-Do not roll or tech towards Zelda too much, she is too slow to punish many rolls/techs in the opposite direction of her, unless they anticipate it very well.
Summary:
-Look out for kicks and early deaths from them
-punish dins
-Constantly look for low % KO's
-Improve SDI and combo DI
-Stay below Zelda
-Mix up recovery(link below)
-avoid rolling towards her; example of why also in link below XD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6PR9h9eHiA
In my defense, this was my second tournament and first time playing against someone of Korean dj's caliber at a tournament, and it was only my second match, so I was a little nervous. I have also gotten much more knowledge of this matchup in the past week. However, that is a good thing because you guys get to see a little bit of what TO DO and what NOT TO DO against Zelda
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Earthbound
[collapse=Lucas]
Planet Piss said:
Might just be me, but I'd say DK wins it fairly well.
For starters, Lucas is the easiest character for DK to not only combo, but combo to kill. Uair, utilt (especially that one), cargo uthrow are almost inescapable for Lucas. Characters like Fox and even Falcon (and MK to some extent) tend to fall too fast to combo on reaction, and Hylian weights like Sheik and Link are heavy enough to withstand regular zero-deaths.
Lucas is light enough for random nair/up+b mixups to kill very reliably, and if nair is DI'd upwards, it's an automatic KO follow-up. He also falls fast enough for guaranteed 'up' combos to work until GP or fair weill finish him from center stage.
In the case of edgeguarding, DK's up+b spin animation (not necessarily the startup hitbox but the mid-air spinning animation) completely stuffs Ropesnake. Well-spaced nair beats magnet, and RAR bair offstage assault, as a mix-up, works insanely well when timed to go in between the magnets. His up+b is a joke if you don't get overzealous and consequently zapped.
As far as defensive game goes, you should not have to trade in the air. Instead, look out for the PK Freeze. Specifically, do any and all of the following:
-Powershield it. Not that hard to powershield stuff, especially if you, as DK, do a running shield. It will take a bit of practice but it's almost imperative.
-Hang out on platforms and get openings by dairing him if he tries to come and get you. Personally, I like to shield drop bair/uair all the time, because it's a technique that literally opens up guaranteed death combos from a defensive state.
-Trade the projectile with a ground move like dtilt.
Speaking of Dtilt, that move is invaluable in neutral. If you are arm's length away from Lucas and pressuring him with ground moves, he can't do anything but try to escape. DK's biggest strength in this MU is the spacing, and once you have solid ground-based neutral down, you can proceed to learn how to carry a single weak (or strong) bair, dtilt, or jab sequence into death.
Some things to watch out for:
-Going offstage. He's going to try to spike you and it won't be hard for him and you'll die at zero percent sometimes. Only go offstage when you read what his next option is. Similar to this, mix-up your recovery. Know where Lucas's bair spike hitbox is and avoid it at all costs. If you know you're going to get hit, press into him to aim for the non-spike bair or (either) sourspot. Dair is much easier to avoid.
-Be patient with his dair combos. Don't spam the tech button because it won't work. Wait until he's comitted to dair and tech to a direction of your choosing. Preferably, don't tech in place because Lucas can punish it on accident.
-Getting grabbed. Bait the grab if possible, but DI'ing away (behind him), to my knowledge, eliminates guaranteed follow-ups after Dthrow.
Additional note:
Shield grab him when you can. Lucas has to be COMPLETELY on point to avoid shieldgrabs from DK. Be smart and don't grab when he's fading back or crossing up (going behind you). He'll get worn out eventually due to how much work he has to do compared with the loss in momentum he experiences when getting combo'd all day.
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Metroid Hunter
[collapse=Samus][/collapse]
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Nightmares From Dreamland
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[collapse=Meta Knight][/collapse]
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Path of Radiance
[collapse=Ike][/collapse]
[collapse=Marth][/collapse]
[collapse=Roy]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6--KltChdQ8 Disaster vs. Sethlon @Smash9[/collapse]
The rest of the cast
[collapse=Captain Falcon]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpjSKlD3IP8 Eli vs. Hax @ SuddenDeath 14 (PM2.6)[/collapse][collapse=Ice Climbers]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn50AQsYPGA Poob vs. Young Justice Smashing Grounds[/collapse]
[collapse=Pit]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jigxr24O8ro CoffeeBlack vs. RaynEX McSmashter3[/collapse]
[collapse=Olimar]This is advice comes from the Olimar boards, thanks for all the help everyone!
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I'm bored, so why not help out some olimar players cause I'm tired of hearing them complain about this matchup LOL
I'm not gonna take the time to make this grammatically correct or perfectly clear, so my apologies
Olimar can combo DK as well as DK can combo any character in the game, so mastering combo game is the first step. That way, neither character has an advantage in the punish game department. Tbh, I picked up Olimar for about a week a looong time ago and the first thing i do wtih any character I pick up is experiment with their combo possibilities on a level 1 computer(cause they actually DI occasionally lol) Olimar does some brutal things to DK. Some things that come to mind, while most of you may know but I rarely see olimars do most of these things which is why I bring it up, are down throw chain grabs, down throw to up smash(up smash can combo into itself 2-3 times at low %) then once up smash sends him too high, do up air juggles or nair juggles. and end it with a powerful hit that sends at a low angle like fair. Try to get that fair with a strong pikmin. For example, if you have a white pikmin then a yellow one, do one more up air then use the yellow for the fair. He has bad vertical recovery so low angle moves really limit his options.
Mastering oos game also helps a lot, cause olimar has great oos game and has many options with his low short hop (nair oos, bair, fair, purple pikmin up smash when going for the kill or just any other up smash to start a combo, and of course grab). Being a DK player, I like to abuse opponent's poor oos game(it's pretty easy to notice how good a player's oos game is when playing them) by doing nairs and fairs on shield and then jab because the shield stun throws a lot of people off. If DK does a nair or fair on your shield(except a well spaced fair), that can lead to a free, brutal, combo/juggle out of nair, grab, or up smash. That brutal combo will then lead to an edgeguard situation which I will talk about next.
When edgeguarding him, don't stand around on stage and try to wait to see what DK does. Doing this just makes your brain go back and forth between decisions and will get you overwhelmed make you want to shoot someone when he sneaks his way back every time. When you see him recover with up b, just jump out and make a decision whether it's fair or dair or whatever, just jump out there and do it. Your vertical recovery is better than his so it's impossible for him to be recovering in a way that will prevent you from getting back if you hit him. Even if you get hit, it's a weak hitbox and unless you jump into it and lose your jump, you will get back just fine.
Also, recover low since DK can't go down too far and make it back safely. Use the range on that up b and delay your rise up until you see an opening
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DK Vs Olimar
DK is able to Trample over Olimar.
His Nair is a fantastic approach since his arms beat out the Purple Pikmin Toss.
Use a well spaced Fair for when he's holding the edge.
He has options when Olimar is returning Mid to Low. If Mid, a dash attack off the edge can put him out of reach of the edge. A Nair or Bair will also safely do the trick.
Jumping Cargo Throw off the edge followed by a Fair can net some early kills and has a high hit rate. If you ever grab and are able to do this, you should. DK is very safe here. Don't be afraid to go out far. Just stay high and you'll be fine.
Jab. Whenever Olimar is close, Jab. You can do a 2 hit into a grab even if he blocks. He's able to grab after your second Jab but it's good to switch up the number of Jab's you do.
If Olimar is out of DK's Jab range, Olimar can get a Grab in. To counter this, Dtilt. A Fair will also do the trick often if you read the grab attempt.
Fair L-Canceled into Jab - Grab is incredible as an approach as long as he blocks. If he doesn't block, he most likely will eat the Fair.
Toss out Bairs as pressure. You don't need to hit him but it will most likely force him to do something, which opens you up for an opportunity for a grab. This is best used when he recovers from the ledge.
^ Copy Paste from the DK thread.
The counter play to this is generally to have a good DD game. If you can DD and get a grab on you can rack up some damage but will likely have a hard time killing him without a Purple hit or a Blue throw when he's over 150% (Depending on the stage)
DK has a Jab that is really good. If he gets you, you can try and DI up and away but chances are, your going to eat a Nair, or if your at lower percents, you'll get grabbed.
If you get grabbed near the edge and put into a Cargo Hold, then he jumps off and tosses you, you basically have to change up your DI. It's kind of a Rock Paper Scissors thing but he's more likely to win. Theres no Safe DI direction on this one.
One of the main tactics you should strive for is getting more Purples. If you can get 3, then you can put on enough constant pressure that you can take the upper hand. I personally recommend haveing only 3 Purples and no others in this matchup, as having 1 that doesn't give knockback can cost you the stock since your probably high in % anyways. Note that this can be very difficult to achieve since an aggressive DK can be hard to deal with.
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Grizzle is actually right. A good DK is hard for any character to deal with, he's possibly the best big body in the game.
He's quick, has great range on all of his attacks coupled with great priority on top of the range. He absolutely does not care about Pikmin Throw from anything other than Purple, and sometimes he can out prioritize that too.
He's heavy so he lives long. His Up-B travels very far and keeps his sides mostly safe. His grab has awesome range and he has great and versatile throws and yes the cargo > F-Air combo is very dangerous against anybody.
If you want to win this matchup you have to space well and not throw attacks out willy nilly. This is another case of never ever mess up.
The game plan is simple but difficult to pull off.
Big stages are key. You're not killing DK off the top anyway. Give yourself space to move around and large blastzones to survive. Recover low, its more dangerous for DK to edgeguard you because he doesn't get much vertical distance for his recovery.
Also you need to edgeguard the same way you would Bowser. D-Air his Up-B. Reach for it if you can, the sooner you smack him down the sooner you can get back on stage and be ready to do it again because you're probably going to need to do it twice.
[/collapse]He's quick, has great range on all of his attacks coupled with great priority on top of the range. He absolutely does not care about Pikmin Throw from anything other than Purple, and sometimes he can out prioritize that too.
He's heavy so he lives long. His Up-B travels very far and keeps his sides mostly safe. His grab has awesome range and he has great and versatile throws and yes the cargo > F-Air combo is very dangerous against anybody.
If you want to win this matchup you have to space well and not throw attacks out willy nilly. This is another case of never ever mess up.
The game plan is simple but difficult to pull off.
Big stages are key. You're not killing DK off the top anyway. Give yourself space to move around and large blastzones to survive. Recover low, its more dangerous for DK to edgeguard you because he doesn't get much vertical distance for his recovery.
Also you need to edgeguard the same way you would Bowser. D-Air his Up-B. Reach for it if you can, the sooner you smack him down the sooner you can get back on stage and be ready to do it again because you're probably going to need to do it twice.
[collapse=R.O.B]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp31NzvA-WM SCG FantaScrub vs. Jitty[/collapse]
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[collapse=Snake]Thanks Teneban for the advice!!
I always tell people to learn one thing against Snake : instant tossing. This Brawl technique consists in catching an item with an airdodge and cancelling the airdodge by tossing that same item. Essentially, you're air glide tossing an item before it's in your hand.
Now this technique is good against all item users (Diddy especially), but against Snake it requires a bit of finesse : if he shields, the grenade is going to drop down slowly and since the fuse is so short, probably blow you up. So you have to look at what snake is doing and if he's not in a position to shield, spam the hell out of this technique. That should cut off half of his camping power, because he'll now have to stay stationnary so you don't send grenades flying back at him. Make him respect you and he'll dramastically calm down.
I traditionally instant toss by doing triangle jumps with an additionnal C stick input. But if you are certain you're going to succeed (in example when the grenade is sitting on a platform), you can use lateral and upwards glides instead, which may help a bit.
Snake's out of shield is not to be messed with. He can either drop a grenade so that you eat 10% if you attack his shield too recklessly, do a frame 5 upB that's invincible up to frame 4 and is only -3 on block, or grab you, and you really don't want Snake to grab you. Always mind the direction he is facing : you can attack the front of his shield alright, but attacking the back of it is asking for a nade.
Luckily, we are a grappler character : shielding is generally a bad idea against DK. Make him respect your Z button by predicting shields.
Snake is juggle food due to a high falling speed and very low horizontal air speed, so go nuts on him when you do land a grab. He does take very little hitstun because of his weight though. Abuse the cargo to get out of the nade's blowing range if he dropped one before you grabbed him. But Snake is the Trade Master : if you leave him alone for 8 frames, he'll have a grenade out and attempt to combo break with it. To counter this, aim for his legs : he holds the grenade high and to the back, so even though it cuts some angles of attacks, it still leaves a lot of his hurtbox vulnerable.
While comboing him, try to put him offstage, low if possible : you can dair his upB, it will meteor him and you'll get hit by the cypher, which will help you recover, so you can really go fish for those gimps very deep. Snake's recovery is infinite : if you don't kill him, he'll come back, even if it costs him greatly.
I suggest being cautious with dash attacks : they lose to all of his projectiles, including the tranq, which leads to a lot of pain. I only use it to juggle in this matchup tbh.
Snake will use B reverse grenades to get out of juggles, don't let it fool you.
Recovering as DK against Snake is going to be extremely painful. He can fair spike you quite easily, drop a C4 from above and detonate it remotely, among other things. I like picking stages with platforms so that I can at least mixup between recovering high and low.
You can run into mines and shield them by using the little slide you do after a dash shield. You can use them though (cargo dthrow him into it), my general plan is to get rid of them if I'm stickied, and try to use them to my advantage otherwise. It's a bit harder to get rid of them if he plants them on a platform I must say.
Nothing we have beats his juggle game. Just DI towards a ledge so that it stops sooner because of a lack of terrain for him to fall back on.
Snake's approaches suck. If you manage to get a lead, it's going to be a much smoother ride.
Of course, try not to get C4'd, it reduces your life expectancy by a good 60%. That includes not shielding stupidly (it can be stickied through shields), and being careful in the respawn phase. Also try not to get grabbed before at least 40%.
I'd say Snake wins the matchup by a respectable margin, but you can still take him and I find it very interesting.[/collapse]
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I will update this if I see any well written summaries, videos, ect. of matchups, since I'm not to good at doing that myself.
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