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Donkey Kong's matchup thread

Strong Badam

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Any advice for playing against 3.5 falcon? I lost to a Falcon at Shots Fired and last night at Xanadu I lost to another Falcon player. Anyone have any advice since the new update?
Matchup feels kinda bad tbh. Lose neutral forever and then get 0-death combo'd about as hard as you do the same to him. I go Wario.
 

Zaa

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Could someone just give me a list of Dk's worst match-ups? The ones that are just about un-winable.
 

Fortune

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The only ones that really stand out to me are Sheik and Game and Watch. Sheik is very hard. A good Lucario can be really difficult as well, since you get combo'd super easily. I have found Luigi difficult as well, but that just might be a personal thing.

As for even matchups, I don't know why you would want those. Most matchups feel even as DK. If you win neutral you punish hard, and if you lose neutral, you get punished hard.
 
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Zaa

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What about falcon? Strongbad said it was pretty bad but I thought it would be closer due to both having very good 0-death potential.
 

Fortune

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I would call DK vs Falcon even.

If you can read where they're going to nair, neutral isn't that bad. I've had success beating Falcon's nair with DK's nair, utilt, and bair (all facing away from falcon). You can also CC nair so it's not the worst thing ever.

I personally believe that DK punishes Falcon harder than Falcon can punish DK.
 
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YvngFlameHoe

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how about dk-sonic? My boy is always getting bobby shmurda'd when he plays the same sonic player he meets at friendlies
 
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Fortune

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oh yea. i forgot that one. sonic is hard for me as well. he can combo you really easily and he's hard to catch.
 
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CELTiiC

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Half to three quarters of the lineup essentially man. DK isn't really a big advantage character as he is combo food for a lot of characters. His biggest asset in PM is that the characters he's facing are also combo food to DK which is what makes most matchups even. Honestly I don't feel there are really any or too many matchups in PM that are in DK's favor. A lot of them are even or he is slightly at a disadvantage.
 

call2brawl7000

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I haven't actually had a ton of trouble with sheiks near my level, since DK can usually punish sheik's recovery with a ledgehop fair and grab combos land easily on sheik. Plus DK outranges all of sheik's approaches and matches her speed. HOWEVER sheik combos DK for days and the needles or just a well-spaced fair can be devastating when DK tries to recover. The needles also help sheik in neutral a bit. I wouldn't say it's great for DK but it isn't terrible, I think.

I also think that DK vs. Falcon is potentially more even, given that uair combos AND cargo uthrow > full jump > fair work on falcon like a dream. Falcon's trash recovery makes him a character that DK can edgeguard, too. Of course, Falcon has the knee, which makes the whole cast tremble, including DK, who's often too big of a target to miss. I would say that neutral is the most important part of the matchup because whoever loses it dies.

Luigi is the character that I personally have the most trouble with. He gets out of DK's grab combos and forces the whole matchup to neutral, which isn't really DK's idea of a good time. That and Luigi's jab > up+b is truly terrifying to DK. Mario doesn't escape quite as easily but still gets out of stuff that would hit most of the cast and is a tough fight in neutral with his fireballs.
 

CELTiiC

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I haven't actually had a ton of trouble with sheiks near my level, since DK can usually punish sheik's recovery with a ledgehop fair and grab combos land easily on sheik. Plus DK outranges all of sheik's approaches and matches her speed. HOWEVER sheik combos DK for days and the needles or just a well-spaced fair can be devastating when DK tries to recover. The needles also help sheik in neutral a bit. I wouldn't say it's great for DK but it isn't terrible, I think.

I also think that DK vs. Falcon is potentially more even, given that uair combos AND cargo uthrow > full jump > fair work on falcon like a dream. Falcon's trash recovery makes him a character that DK can edgeguard, too. Of course, Falcon has the knee, which makes the whole cast tremble, including DK, who's often too big of a target to miss. I would say that neutral is the most important part of the matchup because whoever loses it dies.

Luigi is the character that I personally have the most trouble with. He gets out of DK's grab combos and forces the whole matchup to neutral, which isn't really DK's idea of a good time. That and Luigi's jab > up+b is truly terrifying to DK. Mario doesn't escape quite as easily but still gets out of stuff that would hit most of the cast and is a tough fight in neutral with his fireballs.
Sheik is definitely even, I even think in DK's favor to be honest. I used to have trouble with Sheiks, but once you learn the neutral and matchup needles are the only problem. You should be out spacing Sheik so her grabs combos / tech chases should be at a minimum, and her fall speed and lack to an attack to escape DK's u air juggles make her very easy to combo and rack up damage off one grab. I have gotten a lot better with Falcon, but I honestly feel the neutral is automatically lost. I play it like Falco where I chip away at Falcon until I get that one grab and then I combo into next stock. Luigi and Mario can be scary, but Mario in this update I feel is more even. Although he can combo you, fireball sets up most of his approaches, and b-air and n-air are a great defensive tool for spacing and ruining his fireball game. Luigi is by far way harder.
 

Fortune

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Luigi is the character that I personally have the most trouble with. He gets out of DK's grab combos and forces the whole matchup to neutral, which isn't really DK's idea of a good time. That and Luigi's jab > up+b is truly terrifying to DK. Mario doesn't escape quite as easily but still gets out of stuff that would hit most of the cast and is a tough fight in neutral with his fireballs.
I agree that Luigi is difficult. With mario, you should try to powershield the fireballs. I tried it out when 3.5 came out and it turns out powershielding them is quite easy.
 

call2brawl7000

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I agree that Luigi is difficult. With mario, you should try to powershield the fireballs. I tried it out when 3.5 came out and it turns out powershielding them is quite easy.
I'll definitely try to make powershielding a part of my vs. Mario game. Good thought.
 

Jacob29

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I'm not TOO worried about Olimar, but how do we combo him?

I tried the traditional grab combos but most of them seemed to be very.. ineffective.
 

Cloud9157

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I don't think Luigi is particularly one way or the other tbh. I have a decent amount of experience facing Luigis in Chicago, and I've played sets vs Luigi a couple times in tourney.

I feel there isn't a lot of character specific stuff you can give on Luigi due to his floatiness+nair combination breaking out of almost everything, but instead you just need to look for the hits you CAN get. I've found that the neutral for DK is heavily based on dtilt and attempting to predict wavedash/downb approach. First off, dtilt clanks with anything Luigi can throw out really, so CC dtilt is good if he gets in on you. Second, ground pound will stuff any tornado or wavedash approach he tries, but that goes back to reading them and getting the hitbox out in time. If you get a ground pound you can lead into uair/bair/nair.

Killing Luigi is usually where I struggle most. Grab setups are difficult to convert, so I rely on nair/bair a lot more than anything. Dsmash is decent at killing him too though. Ideally you will get him in an edgeguard situation. In that case, bair will beat out sideb, and you can try to dair him through the stage if he tries to upb after recovering low.

The hardest thing about this matchup is not getting combo'd for 40+ at a time. Luigi has no problems racking up % vs opponents, especially big bodies like DK.

Here's a video of a somewhat recent match I played vs a Luigi:


For the record, I've gotten a bit better at fighting Luigi since then.
 

Phaiyte

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Basically how the matchup should be played on the DK side. The best ways to beat them in neutral, the best ways to kill them, the best ways to edgeguard them, the best options to look for when you score a tech chase, etc.

Inversely, what they're going to try to do to win against you in neutral, the most effective ways they will try to kill you, the way they should be edgeguarding you, what they will do when they score a tech chase, etc.
 

Fortune

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i can't go into all that, but stay grounded. it's easy for marth to juggle dk once you're in the air. if you have the opportunity to double jump, really think before you do it. because marth can follow you. and juggle. for combo, the standard jump cargo upthrow works. I like to also jump cargo upthrow DJ dair. for killing, jump cargo upthrow/fthrow/bthrow DJ fair or punch. Fthrow/bthrow should only be necessary when marth is quite high percent. try to kill him at 80-90%.
 

CELTiiC

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Basically how the matchup should be played on the DK side. The best ways to beat them in neutral, the best ways to kill them, the best ways to edgeguard them, the best options to look for when you score a tech chase, etc.

Inversely, what they're going to try to do to win against you in neutral, the most effective ways they will try to kill you, the way they should be edgeguarding you, what they will do when they score a tech chase, etc.
Best ways to beat Marth in neutral is to stay grounded. If you start getting predictable with aerial approaches the Marth will bait you and juggle you till a fair percent. DK has great range grounded so abuse it, d-tilt and upward tilted f-tilt are very helpful for keeping Marth in check. Use b-air appropriately as obviously it's our best option out of in the air, but don't get too predictable because you will start to get grabbed/punished for it which lead to high percents. Best way to kill Marth is Cargo U-Throw > DJ > Giant Punch. That kills Marth are very early percents, also Cargo U-Throw > DJ > F-air does the job as well and supplement U-air in there are real high percents or if you are a top platform with a decently low ceiling. Honestly down b is very rewarding off tech chase situations, I feel it is vastly underused. It has great hit stun and allows you to generally have enough time to either u-smash, punch or f-air them. But if they are grounded and you can read their options definitely go for down b if you won't be able to get a grab off in time.

Basically on Marth's side he is going to play a very dash dance heavy / d-tilt heavy neutral as always with mixing in f-airs and u-airs to throw you off and get you into the air. Marth's main goal is to get a grab or to get you in the air and off stage. Almost always recover high or mid to high, because if the Marth grabs the ledge it will either lead to an edge guard or d-air spike or if you recover evenly with the stage he can just d-tilt you to throw you back out there and edge hog into d-air or edge hog into kill. Basically just be smart with your recovery because Marth really has a good option for any type of recovery you do. Abuse stages with platforms for this reason. Honestly this matchup isn't impossible you just have to play smart, if you let the Marth run all over you it's going to be hell but if you space properly and throw him off his spacing game it will give you a lot of help.

Edit: Saw you asked for Puff too.

Puff is interesting, you have to b-air camp and keep her out. Once she's in she can combo DK into rest like it's no problem. This matchup to me is kind of annoying because of how patient of a game you have to play. Honestly puff can't do anything to well spaced b-airs and f-tilts. She also can be killed at absurdly low percents if you get a f-air or punch off, which you can sometimes find if you mix up their DI with cargo f-throwand b-throw. Really the more patient player wins this matchup most of the time. Also CP smaller stages and always ban Dreamland. At least this has worked for me against Puffs in the past. N-air and b-air is really good OOS compared to Up B just because Puff can use her mobility to bait an Up B OOS, dodge the strong hit and wait out the move for a rest punish. N-air and B-air have good range and can really help get Puff off of you while also giving you some mobility.
 
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Phaiyte

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All this information came in literally right after the one match I was working for lmao. I did win though :)

He never made the switch to Marth for some reason, so I didn't have to worry about that, but I think I would've beaten the Marth too. I kept abusing the intangible fists on nair to beat out as much as I could, which worked out pretty solidly. I saw that he never jabbed as much as he should have while I was approaching when we were both grounded, so every time I landed a late bair it was a free grab for me, which led to a free donkey punch every time. Through my earplugs and headphones I could still hear the crowds oooohhhs and aaahhhhs and it was a good time. Thanks anyways, guys :)
 

CELTiiC

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To help promote some discussion in this thread and on this sub-forum in general, I have compiled a list of how I feel DK fairs to the rest of the cast through my experience playing Project M over the last 8 months and especially in 3.5. Let me know what you think or how you feel about this list.I feel my list is fairly accurate, but I am always up for discussion. For the record, I have a good amount of experience playing all these matchups except Olimar and Ice Climbers, which is why I put them in the 50/50 slot.


-3: :falco::fox:

-2: :falcon::ivysaur::lucario::peach::zelda::wolf:

-1: :charizard::dedede::diddy::lucas::luigi2::mario2::sheik::squirtle:

0: :dk2::popo::ike::kirby2::marth::metaknight::mewtwopm::gw::ness2::olimar::pikachu2::pit::rob::samus2::toonlink::sonic::yoshi2::zerosuitsamus:


+1: :bowser2::ganondorf::jigglypuff::link2::warioc:

+2::roypm::snake:
 
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DiZZ

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Id move roy to +1 this update or even, Dk also loses to mk by a decent margin I would say -1, Sonic you lose to -2 Ganon you lose to -1 tink you lose to -2 you lose to gnw by 2 you beat m2 by +1 and Puff is -1 the rest of the list seems fine
 

CELTiiC

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Id move roy to +1 this update or even, Dk also loses to mk by a decent margin I would say -1, Sonic you lose to -2 Ganon you lose to -1 tink you lose to -2 you lose to gnw by 2 you beat m2 by +1 and Puff is -1 the rest of the list seems fine
Could you give some explanation? For Roy, one grab and he should be dead. He is one of the best combo weights for DK and this update I would still say DK has an upper hand. I do not agree with Puff and Ganon could you please explain those? Puff has a very hard time getting in if you wall her out.
 
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DiZZ

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with roy, dk grab range was neutered this update and took away his free grabs in neutral. You may zero to death roy but he can do the same to you and he actually wins the neutral. Ganon is a very similar premise to the roy mu were your effective range was reduced this update and the fact ganon can cover your recovery with ease and can tech chase practically to death. Puff with proper spacing can camp you out and space with the bairs you focus on grabs so a floaty who almost never gets grabbed would be in sense hard for you.
 

call2brawl7000

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I would claim that Roy is DK's best matchup. I don't play against Sethlon or anything, but here are my observations: he doesn't outrange or outspeed DK, can't spam any projectiles, doesn't have Marth's spike, and gets punished about as hard as DK can punish. Which is hard.
 

CELTiiC

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with roy, dk grab range was neutered this update and took away his free grabs in neutral. You may zero to death roy but he can do the same to you and he actually wins the neutral. Ganon is a very similar premise to the roy mu were your effective range was reduced this update and the fact ganon can cover your recovery with ease and can tech chase practically to death. Puff with proper spacing can camp you out and space with the bairs you focus on grabs so a floaty who almost never gets grabbed would be in sense hard for you.
Grab range being reduced is less extreme in the match up than Roy's up-air changes. Also I don't think Roy wins neutral as much as you say, and Roy can punish DK hard but DK has an easier time putting Roy into a position to get punished with cargo u-throw. I play against 3 Roy's on a bi-weekly basis and I generally have no trouble against them. Also against Ganon, on stage you shouldn't really be losing. Off stage yes we lose, but we out range Ganon on stage and out speed him. If you play neutral right you shouldn't be in position to lose. Also his grab range is poor so if you space correctly you should minimize grabs and when you say tech chase to death I'm assuming you mean his d-throw? Also with Puff I don't know about that. If you are smart with your b-airs and n-airs Puff has a hard time getting in. DK has a much greater spacing and moves like up angled f-tilt, d-tilt and even u-tilt can help keep Puff out. This match-up you don't need to rely on grabs and when you do get one you should be converting off a good read. Only problem with this match-up is that if Puff gets in it generally is a rest.
 
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__9__

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They have nerf Yoshi's recovery pretty hard in 3.6, his egg roll no longer really helps him get on stage and they some how changed the way his armor works on jump. For 3.5 Yoshi though on thing i can think of is to use DK's down b to cover where he will land with the egg roll. Also his second jump loses armor after a certain point, though i can't remember when that is. I played Yoshi before 3.6 I switched after the nerfs to DK but there are some videos from my smash group that show me getting punished when coming out of jump armor might help you hope that helps.
 
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BertEast

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God I've been so inactive on this. If someone wants to sum up what i've missed, I'd be happy to edit the thingies
 

Mumbo

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How can I beat a Yoshi recovery?
Here's a list of %s DK's relevant moves broke armor in 3.5. Since Yoshi's weight has been reduced, in 3.6 you can actually break armor 1-3% earlier than in 3.5. I haven't bothered to test the new %s myself, sorry/

dk fully charged punch = 20
dk dsmash = 37
dk fsmash = 34
dk dtilt = 104
dk down angled ftilt = 106
dk normal angled ftilt = 96
dk nair = 64
dk uair = 62
dk fair = 49
dk bair = 70
dk dair = 46
dk up b (first Hit) = 93​

The gameplan is if Yoshi is recovering high and hes at low enough % (probably 48 ish) chase that with a fair for a free gimp. Make sure to space it properly so you don't get reactively naired. If he's forced to use eggroll, just chase that offstage with a nair or bair (at any% eggroll has no armor ofc). In 3.6 eggroll has little mobility and a lot of lag time where yoshi can't do anything during or after the eggroll. If yoshi is recovering low, you can go for the dair at low %s, at %s where up b can kill you should absolutely just put an upb at the ledge, and downsmash is actually really effective against a yoshi who jumps just past or to the ledge. Yoshi can't exactly sweetspot the ledge with just his jump but he can with an eggthrow, so be mindful of that. Try to swat away eggthrow recoveries with dtilt.
 

Kneato

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Matchup from :dk2:'s Perspective (+3 has DK winning)

+3:
+2::yoshi2::bowser2:
+1::roypm::kirby2::snake:
0::marth::olimar::zerosuitsamus::jigglypuff::charizard:
-1::lucas::samus2::ike::squirtle::lucario::wario::mario2::luigi2::zelda::dedede::ganondorf::falcon:
:sheik::pikachu2::link2::pit:
-2::toonlink::mewtwopm::wolf::gw::peach::rob::sonic::ivysaur::popo::ness2:
-3::falco::fox::metaknight:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

Not my opinion. This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.
 

Tobb99

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Only 5 positive matchups? Ouch!
Pretty sure that chart is very inaccurate, that's why Kneato posted it, so that DK mains can reply and point out what's inaccurate so that he can update the Project M 3.6 MU chart.
For example I think that the Fox MU is pretty even, and so is the ROB MU.
 

themegaswan

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Matchup from :dk2:'s Perspective (+3 has DK winning)

+3:
+2::yoshi2::bowser2:
+1::roypm::kirby2::snake:
0::marth::olimar::zerosuitsamus::jigglypuff::charizard:
-1::lucas::samus2::ike::squirtle::lucario::wario::mario2::luigi2::zelda::dedede::ganondorf::falcon:
:sheik::pikachu2::link2::pit:
-2::toonlink::mewtwopm::wolf::gw::peach::rob::sonic::ivysaur::popo::ness2:
-3::falco::fox::metaknight:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

Not my opinion. This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.
I'd put Marth at -1 since disjointed hitbox yadda yadda.
 
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