Donkey Kong's matchup thread

[Planet Piss]

Lucas is definitely not the most easy for dk to combo. He can combo break with his neutral B if he's already got a charge. It really couters his main weakness in this matchup, which is being a fastfaller that has to fight a DK.

Other than that I agree with what you've said. But Lucas's neutral B makes the matchup go from nearly 5-5 to a solid 4-6 imo.

His neutral B? That move doesn't combo into anything, so there is no way it can effect the MU that drastically. Lucas needs a charge to do it, and it's not like, say, Peach's nair where it has specific counters and opens into everything. Like Poob said, if he's out of hitstun, You're DKing wrong. Lucas ain't Weegee. Besides, almost every Lucas I've fought thinks I'll always fall for the neutral B attack, and it 's way too easy to punish.

 

[Jinjo64]

I can say that DK does pretty well against Mario. Upair juggle for days and the mix up cargo throws to Fair. Ness seems to be an even match up. Watch out for his Dair though! I think I've seen it hit my Fair. Jab to short hop Uair help too. I'll post more stuff as I battle these two.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

What level Ness/Mario players are you typically playing against? As someone whose been playing DK against Ness and Mario for a long time I consider those match-ups to be very unforgiving sometimes.

 

[BertEast]

Ness isn't too hard, his punishes are scary, but for the most part, I've found choosing bigger stages can help you get around pk fire.

 

[Planet Piss]

Ness? Not so bad. Maybe not even, but not bad.
Mario is terrifying. Uair juggles don't kill him and his dair will go through it sometimes, when he's out of hitstun anyway. Fireballs ruin the stage, and some Marios play so. damn. lame. Mario is also one of the few characters who can zero-death DK. His combos are very auto-style and difficult to escape, his bair cuts clean through up+b, his fair kills at scary low percents for DK, and neutral game is entirely in his favor.

Dair goes into grab and grab goes into death. Frame four dsmash, shield-safe fair, and complimentary stage control button. You can beat high level Marios if you go absolutely bananas. I'm talking like total ape****. You can't let him get out of anything, because he's just going to spam fireballs again in neutral, which each do 7% and come in at essentially random angles--sometimes two on top of each other with Mario coming in immediately after. They just have to flowchart you, and until the update nerfs his recovery, he doesn't have to adapt as much because he can live for ages, unlike spacies for example.

I'm probably just venting salt, but damn I hate Mario. Falco's laser was really good, but this ****? Seriously? You have to sit there slapping the fireballs until one of them comes in from above, and then you try to powershield it, throughout the process of which you go above crouch cancel %, and then you finally powersheid one of them and Mario doesn't care because it will probably go over his head or hit another one or ****ing disappear, and he'll just keep doing his thing, not giving a **** or even realizing anything happened. Then, oh my god, you grab him and tack on enough damage to maybe kill him but, what's that? He lives and comes back riding on a ****ing chariot of fireballs and grabs the ledge, or stalls offstage with his absurdly obnoxious walljump bull****

 

[Planet Piss]

I accidentally made a new post and don't know how to delete it.

 

[Jinjo64]

Ness? Not so bad. Maybe not even, but not bad.
Mario is terrifying. Uair juggles don't kill him and his dair will go through it sometimes, when he's out of hitstun anyway. Fireballs ruin the stage, and some Marios play so. damn. lame. Mario is also one of the few characters who can zero-death DK. His combos are very auto-style and difficult to escape, his bair cuts clean through up+b, his fair kills at scary low percents for DK, and neutral game is entirely in his favor.

Dair goes into grab and grab goes into death. Frame four dsmash, shield-safe fair, and complimentary stage control button. You can beat high level Marios if you go absolutely bananas. I'm talking like total ape****. You can't let him get out of anything, because he's just going to spam fireballs again in neutral, which each do 7% and come in at essentially random angles--sometimes two on top of each other with Mario coming in immediately after. They just have to flowchart you, and until the update nerfs his recovery, he doesn't have to adapt as much because he can live for ages, unlike spacies for example.

I'm probably just venting salt, but damn I hate Mario. Falco's laser was really good, but this ****? Seriously? You have to sit there slapping the fireballs until one of them comes in from above, and then you try to powershield it, throughout the process of which you go above crouch cancel %, and then you finally powersheid one of them and Mario doesn't care because it will probably go over his head or hit another one or ****ing disappear, and he'll just keep doing his thing, not giving a **** or even realizing anything happened. Then, oh my god, you grab him and tack on enough damage to maybe kill him but, what's that? He lives and comes back riding on a ****ing chariot of fireballs and grabs the ledge, or stalls offstage with his absurdly obnoxious walljump bull****

Mario is bullpoop. I do agree with that and him caping all your fair kills off the edge don't help. You just have to work a lot harder than your opponent sadly. Also a lot of mario players are very easy to read since they do the same techniques on repeat since they are so safe. Learn to read these and learn the funny attacks that can clank with Dsmash. Also I tried Bair last night vs pills and I had decent success. In no way is this match up even. When I said pretty well...I meant that dk has some tools to work with.

 

[Planet Piss]

One of the reasons I main DK is what I call the "DK factor" where he can mix-up DI or, my favorite, trick opponents into attacking him during a false combo (Luigi's nair break-out, Mario's nair or dair, GAW's dair, ect.) and then dash dance nair. They almost always try to cross-up the move and end up DI'ing into the blastzone. He can do that as a reliable kill in bad MUs, but you just have to be tricky. As for pills/fireballs, I like to bair them as well, but if one of them gets below you (which they tend to do, especially if there are two in a row) then you get hit while you're airborne and that is a miserable experience. You can crouch cancel them, but that's not worth it generally speaking because of all the damage they do.

 

[Dandizzle]

It was mentioned that there was a demand to revive the DK boards, so I wanted to ask what you guys think about the R.O.B matchup? I've heard DK players say they win it but I'm not sure how problematic it actually would be considering some of R.O.B's tools. I fought Poob a long time ago and besides the range there didn't seem anything too polarizing with DK's kit against R.O.B. and some of DK's weaknesses like his recovery R.O.B could exploit. I lost obviously but I felt more outplayed and inexperienced in the match up then R.O.B struggling against the character himself. I would appreciate any input and will give you credit on the R.O.B matchup thread.

 

[POOB]

I think the matchup is even. They both combo each other about the same, but dk has an easier time racking up percent quickly and getting the kill. Rob however, makes up for it by having an edge in the recovery and neutral game departments.

Edit: i think i remember playing you actually. Didnt i play you at nebulous? If youre that guy you were actually pretty good. I think your biggest mistake was counterpicking green hill zone haha the small blast side blast zones helped me a lot

 

[Dandizzle]

I actually never have been to Nebulous but I may go this weekend because there is nothing more local around. Naw it was SKTAR 3 a long time ago, R.O.B was only my secondary then and I would say I play R.O.B a lot better now. I actually now recall playing a really good DK at a weekly around a week ago and I beat him, so yea I would agree with even. I just remember some DK players saying they won, which I don't really blame them because they aren't too many good R.O.B's around.

I almost feel you could argue for a slight advantage for R.O.B in some ways because he can keep him at bay with projectiles, actually doesn't get juggled hard because Nair should outrange all of DK's aerials besides Bair which isn't even a juggle move, can pretty much kill DK anytime he's offstage with a gyro or laser and R.O.B's tiny, tiny shield matters less against a more grab based character. It's just that DK can setup many early percent to death combos, especially off of a tech chase or a miss DI'd throw that should keep it even, plus DK is a more overall solid character I'd say this patch. So I'll probably put this as even on my matchup thread unless someone else has a good argument that it isn't.

 

[Fortune]

Hey all, could you please offer some advice vs metaknight? Any advice is appreciated, but I am struggling most with the neutral game.

 

[POOB]

Hey how ironic, I was at my friends house and he had the xanadu stream on and i saw DK so I started watching intensely lol. That's a good thing, cause i can give you some player specific tips. I don't think you lost due to anything meta knight specific, except for one thing which i'll mention at the end cause i want to start with the more important stuff. You actually played that matchup VERY well as far as character-vs-character.
There were a few very simple, but frequent mistakes you were making in neutral that cost you the set. Here they are in no particular order.
First, you were very unsafe with your landings whenever you jumped. If you were spacing aerials in neutral, or any situation for that matter, you would often land a few character lengths away and since meta knight is so fast, that's an easy punish/grab. I saw this happen multiple times so it would make a big difference if you avoided landing near him so... obviously. for lack of a better word.
Second, a couple times you were a little late with your punishes in the opposite situation than the one above. If he landed near you, you would wait for his aerial to end then try to run in and grab, but he just f tilted you out of it or something. Right when u see him short hop in your direction, run with a quick shffl nair and by the time your nair comes out, his aerial will be ending and he will still be in endlag when u hit him so he can't do anything
Third, you had a double jump habit which meta knight is AMAZING at punishing. Your double jump habit was usually in the situation after you get hit to the side at low-mid percent, and then got out of hitstun. You would often double jump toward him and at this point meta knight can either dash back, then run in and punish the landing with a grab due to his speed, or he can instantly punish the jump by going where you never want him to be: directly under you and spamming up airs. He did both of these punish options to you in the set.
Lastly, and this would be the absolute icing on the cake for you to beat that guy, or other meta knights in general, is you have no reason to not charge your punch when you respawn, and simply in general. DK has a free full hop cargo up throw to double jump donkey punch kill combo on metaknight, and it's honestly probably the best meta knight kill combo in the game cause it's 100% guaranteed if u don't have an input error or something silly like that. Therefore, you should pretty much always have the punch charged in that matchup. Also, keep in mind the % where it works is around the 50% to low 70s. Lower than that likely won't kill, and any higher will be harder to land the punch and at that point a fair is easier anyway.

Do those 4 things and you're guaranteed to beat that meta knight next week! good luck!
This stuff can apply to any character, minus the last part regarding the combo so hopefully it will improve your overall DK play

 

[Fortune]

thanks!

10char

 

[V]

How would you rank the match up difficulty between Marth, Fox, and Pit?

 

[Fortune]

Fox is the hardest imo. Pit was sometimes hard in 3.02 but I haven't played a pit yet in 3.5. I would say Marth and Pit are around the same, maybe Marth is a bit easier (but that may just be because I have Melee exp vs Marth).

Also, the thing about fox is the fox has to be good at camping for fox to be the hardest of the three. an aggro fox is easier for DK. A fox who does not have their tech skill DOWN is also easy for DK.

 

[SadboyTT__TT]

Can anyone give advice against peach?

 

[Spank3d]

@ S SadboyTT__TT I'm not too keen on the 3.5 changes to Peach, but some general things to be aware of are:

1. Don't let her get too far away/camp you. Turnips are really annoying to deal with, and on occasion Peach can kill you if she picks the right one (i.e. dot eyes or stitch face)
2. If peach float cancel f-air's your shield, *do not* try to shield grab her. You will be in too much shield stun, and will most likely get hit again or otherwise followed up on.
3. When edge guarding peach, she will most often go high (if she has good/consistent DI) and will try to juke you using her up-b. Basically, she's going to fast fall/float a ton with her parasol, so try to read where she's going to fall and punish it with a move the covers a ton of area. B-air is more consistent, f-air is more rewarding.
4. Keep in mind what peach can do with her grabs, basically meaning watch out for being chain grabbed by up-throw/down-throw at lower percents, and killed with a forward-throw at high percent. Learn which ways you need to DI.
5. Floatier characters are harder to follow up on with combos, so if you think you can just barely pinch in another hit, most of the time you shouldn't try. You'll probably get n-air'ed in the face for reaching (this is especially true against Luigi)

If anyone else has input or needs to correct a mistake in point that I made, please, feel free to do so.

 

[Spank3d]

Also, does anyone have a good idea of stuff to do against 3.5 Link? I'm struggling with the matchup due to being unable to find a way in against the projectiles. Is it a matter of stage, or different style of gameplay?

 

[Fortune]

vs Link, POWERSHIELD. It's not that hard with DK in PM.

I haven't played the matchup that much, but I have had a lot of success recently vs other projectile characters just by introducing powershielding into my game.

 

[Spank3d]

Siiigh I had a feeling that answer was coming haha. Welp, time to jump back into the lab. Thanks though, I appreciate the reply

 

[Fortune]

You can hit the boomerang and arrow with a move, I think...
And you can grab the bombs out of the air.

 

[POOB]

The key to beating link in neutral is to avoid projectiles by being airborne,but dont be predictable with your jumps, and throw out back airs cause they go through boomerang and arrows. Then, once you get close enough, wait for a predictable opportunity for link to throw a boomerang, anticipate it, and surprise him with a dash shffl nair. If timed correctly, the nair goes straight through the boomerang right as it leaves links hand(or befofe it even comes out) and then you will obviously hit link on top of it and you can start a combo. Just make sure that once you get in, you keep thepressure as long as possible. Also, links often like to throw boomerangs out before they land. If you predict far enough in advance, just run up to him and shield grab the boomerang at point blank. Those tips are pretty much key to beating link. The rest just comes down to learning your opponent's habits.

 

[Fortune]

If you predict far enough in advance, just run up to him and shield grab the boomerang at point blank.

I never thought of this. Sounds good.

 

[Planet Piss]

Link is still a jerk in 3.5. I never relied/rely on powershielding against him in neutral for a few reasons:
1) Risk is heavily in his favor. Miss one powershield and get combo'd to 90% easy, or autocombo'd at high percent to death.
2) His shield. Even if you manage to powershield a boomerang or arrow, it's probably going to pop on his shield and he won't even realize
3)Rewards come more easily by crouch cancelling at arm's length.

Basically, Link is going to boss DK around by throwing stuff at him, and you have to pick a stage where you can get around his shenanigans without direct confrontation. He's super easy to combo to death and his recovery is worse now as well.

And like POOB said, point-blank shielding is amazing, but it's amazing against practically every character. Throws off spacing and timing like nothing else.

 

[Spank3d]

And like POOB said, point-blank shielding is amazing, but it's amazing against practically every character. Throws off spacing and timing like nothing else.

True, do you guys notice any other super obvious timings or things to look for when looking for point-blank shield grabs? For instance, would that apply well to Fox/Falco lasers or Doc/Mario projectiles?

And thanks for the tips everybody! Just got netplay, looking forward to practicing against a variety of players

 

[SpiderMad]

Someone please make a .gif comparison of 3.02 Nair to 3.5 Nair, as well as grab(s).

@ POOB

 

[SadboyTT__TT]

Squirtle and/or yoshi?

 

[Scuba Steve]

Someone please make a .gif comparison of 3.02 Nair to 3.5 Nair, as well as grab(s).

@ POOB

Just by looking at the changelog, it doesn't seem like the hitboxes were changed at all. It just received a 1% damage nerf and lost the intangibility on the forearms.

 

[SpiderMad]

Yeah intangibility is important

 

[Scuba Steve]

Intangibility is important, but the hitboxes themselves are still the same. A gif comparison will be exactly the same, but with one DK's forearms blue.

 

[call2brawl7000]

Recently I've been in the lab and practicing with a partner on the space animal matchups and while spacie pressure can be tough for DK, I never realized how amazing DK's chaingrabs are in the matchup. Not only can you get them to around 50 percent off the bat but you can finish with a guaranteed up smash or even possible 0-death giant punch if you catch their DI (tested only on FD, of course). Definitely something to learn for those tricky fastfallers.

It's not just FD though, because you can carry foes to the middle of PS2 or the edge of yoshi's island brawl, jump onto the smashville platform or avoid it entirely, and similar stuff on other stages. I would almost feel bad, but then fox has shine.

 

[Strong Badam]

With proper mashing, repositioning yourself extensively isn't really viable. But certainly it is quite helpful to move a lil bit during chaingrabs; FFers would be able to escape to platforms much more quickly otherwise.
Jumping up to the Smashville plat isn't really as great as it sounds because you they can DI the opposite direction the plat is moving, making the CG a mixup between cargo f/b and upthrow.

 

[call2brawl7000]

Yeah, jumping up onto smashville often ends your chaingrab, but it gives you the option to get in a follow up hit or maybe an uair combo starter if your opponent DIs poorly, instead of the less reliable platform tech chase.

Definitely not the end-all be-all for the matchup but it's pretty important, I'd say.

 

[CELTiiC]

Any advice for playing against 3.5 falcon? I lost to a Falcon at Shots Fired and last night at Xanadu I lost to another Falcon player. Anyone have any advice since the new update?

 

[Scuba Steve]

Cargo upthrow to auto combo and back air edge guard. Don't lose neutral and you win

 

[CELTiiC]

Any tips on not losing neutral? Like should you play a patient b-air heavy neutral? Obviously you don't want to play a speed heavy neutral or dash dance neutral with him, I'm just asking because I find it hard at times to get grabs but I may be fishing for them at the same time.

 

[Brass Monkey]

Falcon is a bit tricky solely because he can safely jab you when you attempt to shield grab those nasty aerials. The key to the matchup lies in using b-air more readily than most matchups and utilizing one of the stupidest tricks in the book every so often. Roll. Yep sounds hella stupid but there's always that time that he's jumping right at you with a neutral air and you're backed into a corner. Rolling towards him/center stage at this point has no consequences and instead leaves him trapped in the corner. After I discovered that, the matchup became much more doable as he now has no room to dash dance to avoid the shffle pressure which should lead to him cracking. Stage preference is up to you but a larger stage means you live much longer than he does off the side and allows for edgeguards while something like Wario Ware might have better platform placement for you.

 

[Fortune]

ok so for edgeguarding falcon, just grab edge and continually refresh invincibility. if he tries to side b to ledge, you can ledgehop nair and have time to regrab ledge. This is more a general point, but mixup jab and grab after a late [non-shieldgrabbable] nair on their shield. Who did you lose to at xanadu? i also play at xanadu. watch this, hopefully it helps. I have a lot of experience in this matchup:

 

[CELTiiC]

At Shots Fired I lost to Remo and at Xanadu I lost to Hat. But I was playing a couple Falcons today and got some more control of this matchup. Using a lot more b-airs I found this matchup much more bearable, I think I was just too aggressive. Thanks for the advice guys, and watching that match Fortune I could use some of those tricks. I like the patience in the approach and bait the Falcon player to make an over aggressive approach, it seemed to work on Crescent a good amount in the first game.